Squatter doesn't sit well with Airbnb host

http://www.sfgate.com/realestate/article/Squatters-don-t-sit-well-with-Airbnb-hosts-5631952.php

by kqr2 • 12 years ago

98 78 12 years ago

klenwell• 12 years ago

Title (article's own) makes it sound like this is some sort of trend. But unless I missed something, this is just one unfortunate host's struggles with a jerk tenant.

dang• 12 years ago

In that case maybe we'll change the title to use the singular instead of the plural.

nathanb• 12 years ago

I like the new title better, thanks.

toomuchtodo4• 12 years ago

Perhaps Airbnb should post a warning to hosts allowing tenants to rent more than X days if its going to give those tenants renter's rights in their jurisdiction.

DanBlake4• 12 years ago

Did you know that if someone rents a airbnb listing in SF for more than 30 days, they can stay there forever , so long as they continue paying the same rate they did from airbnb ?

I bet you didnt. In order to get them out, you would need to ellis act or do a owner move in eviction- Both of which cost well over 25k and can only be done once for the lifetime of the property.

zyxley• 12 years ago

This isn't really Airbnb's problem, though I imagine they could do a better job of showing what lengths of stay would make tenant rights' laws or other legal complications kick in.

padobson2• 12 years ago

This seems to be as much a problem with eviction laws as with Airbnb.

In Ohio, the eviction process isn't exactly landlord friendly, but it doesn't require a lawyer either. And in most cases, deadbeat tenants aren't going to show up at the court date anyhow - then it's trivial to get a ruling in your favor. You'll lose out on 60-90 days of rent, but if that bankrupts you, your margins are too tight.

And Airbnb has, by far, returned me the highest margins I've ever gotten, so it's certainly worth the risk of squatters.

toomuchtodo4• 12 years ago

You'll lose out on 60-90 days of rent, but if that bankrupts you, your margins are too tight.

And if the tenant trashes the place in the meantime? You're not out your margins, you're out actual damages that need to be repaired.

Disclaimer: Was a landlord. Once.

zo12• 12 years ago

That's what insurance is for. And the court system so you can get the tenant to pay back damages. Either that, or filter your tenants a little better.

Disclaimer: I know people that got burned by "tenants", and they're resolving it just fine through the legal system.

joe_the_user• 12 years ago

The main thing is that Airbnb offers a lot of people a way to become a landlord while not telegraphing to them the fact they are now in a business with risks and dangers as well as rewards.

oldmanjay• 12 years ago

Well you can't make people read too much during the sign up or they might abandon the process and ruin the metrics.

spiritplumber2• 12 years ago

In San Antonio, TX I was surprised to find the shotgun-wielding landlady telling me to get out before midnight exactly the day before my rent was due... turns out she wanted to kick out a delinquent tenant in the unit with the same letter but one civic number over, but I can't blame her for taking direct action. Scared the piss out of me though! At least I got a free month out of it.

bdcravens• 12 years ago

Probably was an illegal eviction however, one that she could have received criminal charges for.

padobson2• 12 years ago

Probably the case of an illegal eviction. Other illegal evictions include: changing the locks, shutting of the utilities, blasting music outside the apartment at 3am.

gabemart• 12 years ago

I found a message board thread in which the Airbnb host this article is written about describes the issue and asks for advice.

http://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/52/topics/136498-evictin...

re-anon4• 12 years ago

I'm in real estate and was able to locate the owner's condo. It's part of a HOA. The HOA's CCRs forbids leases for "transient or hotel purposes." The typical meaning of this is leases of under 30 days. The CCRs also require that permitted leases be in writing.

The sfgate article says that the owner was renting this out for $450/week to help cover her mortgage and expenses so it is probable that some of her activity was in violation of the CCRs. It also sounds like she didn't actually have a written lease with the squatter tenant who booked a 44 day reservation and therefore has tenants rights.

I am not a fan of AirBNB but AirBNB doesn't deserve blame for this. This owner thought it would be cool to become a real estate investor and she didn't know what she was doing. Now shes paying the price...

calbear812• 12 years ago

Sometimes, I think the "friendly" community of AirBnB needs to be a bit more business when dealing with squatter scumbags.

Once AirBnB couldn't collect the money, the rental should have been terminated and the host should have immediately call the cops to vacate the property well before the 30 days was up. I'm not sure why they tried to work out something with the renter. Maybe they tried to be "nice" but if some situation starts to smell fishy, handle it quickly.

larrys3• 12 years ago

"I am not a fan of AirBNB but AirBNB doesn't deserve blame for this. "

Well (I'm not a fan either if that means I use it or have used it - I haven't)

Airbnb knows this situation could exist because statistically it almost certainly has happened to a group of people.

Consequently, Airbnb may very well decide, for business reasons, (so as not to scare off potential landlords) to not mention risks which they are fully aware of. Which someone who is casually using airbnb might not run into on their own for years, if ever.

This is a common business predicament. Say to much and you loose the sale. Say to little and you can get bad publicity. Obviously you have to weigh the pros and the cons.

As far as "hiring a professional" although that is certainly better than winging it generally it's not as if professionals will point out all the things that can go wrong, either. If you buy a rental property (as a newbie) the agent is not going to guarantee that they will get you a tenant obviously. But they are also not going to tell you all the things that can go wrong with a tenant unless you happen to ask. (And this isn't limited to realtors it's just a general business thing).

mershad2• 12 years ago

Could someone explain why he is still considered a tenant even though he pays no rent or utilities at the property? I am curious as to why he can't just be considered a trespasser and removed by police.

MattGrommes• 12 years ago

After you are allowed to stay in a home more than 30 days you become a "tenant" and are subject to renter protection laws. I'd imagine these short term rental companies will get much stricter about 30+ stays real soon now.

toomuchtodo4• 12 years ago

Does this apply even to people I would allow to stay in my home for free? Or does this only kick in when money changes hands?

anigbrowl2• 12 years ago

Because he has been there more than 30 days and has already made complaints about the adequacy of the accommodations. I feel sorry for the property owner but she got into the landlord business without doing basic research.

The guest texted back saying he was legally occupying the condo and that loss of electricity would threaten the work he does at home that brings in $1,000 to $7,000 a day.

Oh, this must be the guy all those people are talking about in blog comments :)

mershad2• 12 years ago

Is the complaint about inadequate accommodations enough to withhold rent?

I think what I'm really getting at is, if he is _still_ a tenant without paying rent. When does a tenant become a squatter?

I'm clear on that certain rights kick in at 30d, I am just a little hazy that a right is to stay without paying for it.

danso• 12 years ago

So...help me out here. The host met a stranger and rented out the apartment (even after herself seeing warning signs) in such a way that her renter has renter's rights under California law?

I'm relatively young and have never been a landlord: in the pre-Internet days, did landlords not rent to people they didn't know well? Did they not have to comply to certain state laws? If we switched "Airbnb" with "Craigslist" or "San Francisco Chronicle's Classifieds Section"...would this be a story in the SF Chronicle?

dobbsbob• 12 years ago

Yep, media usually hypes these delinquent tenant stories though they are probably rare. Lot's of "Freeman-on-the-land" stories of squatters refusing to pay rent for 1-3 mos and landlord's can't evict them. Every story they interview some shady property management corp who insists all renter laws must be weakened.

A story the media hasn't done yet is how often traveling sex workers use Airbnb for incall. 2-3 workers will travel to different cities together and then use the apartment to turn tricks. Perfect incall solution instead of using hotels which charge extra for guests or clamp down on visitors. I'm sure there's a small minority of tenants using Airbnb to import narcotics or fraud hardware like ATM skimmers too, can always claim the previous tenant ordered the box full of drugs and you had no knowledge.

fred_durst• 12 years ago

Airbnb as an address to get illegal things shipped and dropped off sounds just too easy. So easy to deny responsibility. Even just for using a courier service.

NPMaxwell• 12 years ago

This highlights how staff who handle emails or calls needs to be part of the business plan of a b-to-c startup. Or at least an explanation of why it's OK to NOT handle customer contacts.

mikeash4• 12 years ago

I'm baffled at how people rent out houses without doing the research first.

I bet that if you asked to rent their car, they'd go check it out first. Call their insurance company, find out what the legal requirements are, etc.

Yet do the same thing with an item that costs 10, 20, 30 times as much money and people's approach seems to be, hey, free money, woooooo.

Maybe it's just a case of only hearing about the rare fools.

bronson• 12 years ago

It's because AirBNB makes becoming a landlord point-and-click simple. "It's so popular and easy! It's a big website, it must be legal!"

The moment an AirBNB site for cars comes along, you'll see it.

cowsandmilk3• 12 years ago

RelayRides? JustShareIt? Getaround?

etc.

frostmatthew• 12 years ago

The moment an AirBNB site for cars comes along, you'll see it.

https://relayrides.com/

analog31• 12 years ago

Do hotels have different eviction laws?

cowsandmilk3• 12 years ago

yes.

This is why many chains have separate long-term stay places and hotels. Most hotels will not let you stay long enough to be a "tenant".

trhway• 12 years ago

obligatory educational material - http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0100318/

fiatmoney2• 12 years ago

The historical solution to this (illegal tenant in an illegal short-term sublet doesn't want to move out) would be to have some vowel-suffixed friends encourage them to move out. Which isn't exactly "nice", but at least has the virtue of being nicely economically efficient.

ChuckMcM• 12 years ago

I was thinking something similar, the AirBnb host however doesn't think of themselves as doing anything illegal so they constrain their thinking in that way. I have certainly met people over the years who exploit this in others.

notastartup• 12 years ago

that's true, I guess a lot of underground markets, black markets operate under the hand of physical enforcement or intimidation, I guess the more unregulated a market is, even lead to death. ex. drugs, prostitution etc.

DanBC• 12 years ago

Landlord ends up in jail, and property ends up destroyed. Since the landlord probably doesn't have insurance, or has voided that insurance several different ways, it's an expensive method to achieve nothing. And that's if the tenents decide to leave, because they could just stay.

superuser2• 12 years ago

some vowel-suffixed friends

Sorry for OT, but I've never seen this phrasing before. I assume from context that you mean the mafia, but why "vowel-suffixed"?

jsmthrowaway• 12 years ago

It's a way of saying "Italians" while trying to avoid appearing racist by directly saying it. Many Italian surnames end in a vowel.

e15ctr0n• 12 years ago

Looks like just the threat worked in the case of a soldier who went to Afghanistan and returned to find that his renters had become squatters.

http://www.wfla.com/story/25320239/outpouring-of-support-for...

leot• 12 years ago

Sounds like the guy might be using the host's electricity to do bitcoin mining.

Super scammy. This kind of thing should be criminal.

espringe• 12 years ago

If the tenant is supposedly blasting the aircon, with the windows open in 114 degree heat ... I'm not sure an alternate explanation is needed. (Not to mention, bitcoin mining requires a lot more than cheap-to-free electricity)

alixander• 12 years ago

That first sentence is so poorly written.

DanBlake4• 12 years ago

I wrote about this exact situation and the legality's regarding it in 2012.

http://harknesslabs.com/post/32179239260/gaming-airbnb-in-sa...

The gist of it, is that San Francisco and California's rental and rent control laws will supersede any private contract you can write. No way around it. If there was a way around it, you can bet that landlords would simply be including clauses in all new leases they say "rent control not valid here".

What I wrote in the above article amazingly still stands today. You can even find a 1bedroom in Nob Hill for a affordable 2200 a month! https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/1605304?

There is so much education AirBnB should be doing for their hosts in CA and SF especially.

Did you know that if someone rents a airbnb listing in SF for more than 30 days, they can stay there forever, so long as they keep paying rent? Yeah, no mention of that when you create a new listing on the site.

YokoZar• 12 years ago

Well not exactly. If the AirBNB host is a tenant themselves, then the subtenant relationship will end when the AirBNB host vacates the property.

Not all SF landlords are opposed to their tenants rerenting the units on AirBNB. Some even deliberately rent for minimums of 30 days, to avoid running into zoning regulations against short term stays. AirBNB promised to start collecting hotel taxes in SF, but such taxes wouldn't apply in this case either.

DanBlake4• 12 years ago

That is not entirely accurate. If you were renting a room in a apartment (you being the master tenant) and you still resided in the apartment in another bedroom AND also showed/informed the new tenant a copy of San Francisco Rules & Regulations 6.15C- then yes, you could evict them.

Otherwise, you cant- and the tenant takes over the defacto 'lease' from you.

Costa Hawkins (which I believe you are referring to) is a landlord/owner option. You as a tenant cannot initiate it and would be shit out of luck. You might be able to get your landlord to initiate the lawsuit for you, but I doubt they want to come out of pocket on legal expenses on your behalf.

philipn• 12 years ago

This "30-day for just-cause-only eviction protection" isn't, as far as I know, quite right. Given that AirBnB guests don't really sign any contracts (aside from the website boilerplate), you may be correct in this case. But in general, it's very possible to sublet your apartment in SF and have your subtenant sign an agreement to wave their just-cause eviction protection on the grounds the rental is temporary. See this page for more information: http://www.hrcsf.org/subletting_basic.html

mikeash4• 12 years ago

Note that the property in question isn't anywhere close to SF. It is in California, so those laws are relevant, but SF's laws aren't.

6d0debc071• 12 years ago

Did you know that if someone rents a airbnb listing in SF for more than 30 days, they can stay there forever, so long as they keep paying rent?

Are the rent terms fixed at the time they occupy? If not, one assumes that the landlord could just up the price repeatedly to force them out.

DanBlake4• 12 years ago

In SF, yes.

ForHackernews• 12 years ago

I have very little sympathy for Airbnb landlords: they want to make a quick buck without following the laws to run a real hotel, then they don't get the legal protections of hotels.

seanflyon2• 12 years ago

When honest people fall victim to scam artists, I do sympathize even if they could have avoided it with better legal knowledge.

batbomb• 12 years ago

Why can't she so 3 day pay or quit (plus eviction) and/or give 30 day notice for chronically late payments?

kaivi• 12 years ago

I remember reading a story in the recent Priceonomics book about a similar tenant conflict in SF. Tl;dr, a 75-yr-old lady was thrown out into the cold, but only after months of hearings and lots of money wasted on lawyers. Why do such laws exist at all in CA? Why not just send out several warnings in advance, explaining whole situation and the available options for tenant?

These two guys are just asking for a good old ass whooping. Throw them out, then let them try and prove that they were renting the place to begin with. Whatever the premises, you could certainly make it be your words against theirs.

aaron695• 12 years ago

Similar situation with a nanny refusing to leave.

http://time.com/2941176/nightmare-nanny-leaving/

Like any business decision you do need to risk manage it. Extremes like this are rare, which is why it's in the news but you do need to be aware of what you're investing in and the risks involved.

Stealx• 12 years ago

First thought was a meth lab or grow house.

malandrew• 12 years ago

AirBnB could just suggest to people to only rent a unit for 29 days, find another AirBnB property for 2-3 days to "break the streak" and the have the person in question return to the unit for another 29-day streak. I would imagine that all you really need to do is break the the contractual relationship into 29-day chunks with a provable different contractual relationship (another AirBnB host) for the interim between sub one month stays.

Squatter doesn't sit well with Airbnb host

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