Surface Pro 3

http://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2014/05/23/surface-pro-3

by ismavis • 12 years ago

351 223 12 years ago

carlio• 12 years ago

Gabe has written some very complimentary things about the Surface in the past, it's no wonder they're eager to hear his opinions and tell him what he wants to hear. "Yes Mr Gabe, we really like artists, like a whole bunch. Please write some more nice things!"

I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny Arcade?

stcredzero• 12 years ago

If they could capture the teen angst journal/poetry crowd, they might have a gilded pathway into the future.

bignaj• 12 years ago

I think you're being downvoted because of tone. I don't have enough karma to downvote but my feedback is that sometimes extreme cynicism makes HN not so fun to read. Cheer up, it's Friday before Memorial Day weekend!

FreezerburnV• 12 years ago

Does it really matter if they care about artists or not in this case? In order for them to get good publicity to the audience of Penny Arcade, they have to cater to artists. (assuming you aren't cynical enough to believe that Gabe is just a shill for Microsoft, which he likely is not) If Surface 4 comes out and they don't fix any of the issues Gabe has mentioned, and they send him one to review, he'll point out that things were not fixed, and they were obviously not listening. I think at that point it would be valid to say they don't care, but the way things are described, it does sound like they're trying to improve the product, at least for the specific niche Gabe occupies.

hagbardgroup2• 12 years ago

Remember "I'm a Mac / I'm a PC?" The loyalty that Apple built up among creative professionals has under-girded their entire brand. If you were Microsoft, and you saw a chance to knock some of those people loose, wouldn't you work like hell to make that happen?

This would also be an example of MS improving its touch in terms of attempting to persuade people about Surface. Rather than just repeating over and over about how great [tabletX] is and how a celebrity they've paid to endorse it just loves it (see HP's disastrous TV campaigns for their tablets), they're letting an influential guy use it, review it, and criticize it publicly. The critical bits are what make it more effective as commercial messaging for MS' particular purposes at this moment.

If Gabe were shilling they would pay him directly to shill and it would be marked as an ad (which PA has done many times before for many companies). In this case, that's probably not happening.

MBCook5• 12 years ago

Does it really matter if they care about artists or not in this case?

The digitizer on the Surface is one of the undeniable advantages it has over an iPad for some workflows.

cwyers• 12 years ago

Microsoft went out to Adobe and got them to build a touch-optimized version of freaking Photoshop and had them on stage at the unveiling of this thing to announce a new Adobe product as part of their product launch. [1] Then they went ahead and added a new setting to the kickstand in the back of the surface to make it easier to draw on -- actual changes to the physical design of the thing with artists in mind.

Yeah, Microsoft really cares about artists. They absolutely want people creating digital art to be doing so on the Surface.

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/7357/20140522/adobe-shows-...

enraged_camel2• 12 years ago

The care is certainly there. It's the execution that is lacking significantly.

The types of issues Gabe describes could have been resolved if they had actual artists test the product before it was released. The drawing hand accidentally brushing against the Windows button and kicking the user out to the desktop? Please. This type of stuff is extremely trivial to discover with proper usability testing during development. (Heck, they didn't even have to release the prototypes to the public. I'm sure they have plenty of in-house people who do their drawing on tablets.)

I've always said that Microsoft is really, really good at engineering, and really, really bad at UX and usability. After reading Gabe's review, I'm disappointed that this is still the case.

ericcholis• 12 years ago

I think it's an attempt at a broad grab, They like to be able to show multiple use cases for their devices, art being an interesting niche. The other grab is the obviously large audience that PA has.

arenaninja• 12 years ago

I felt this review of SP3 was far less positive than his Surface Pro 2 review. I'm sure Microsoft also needs him as a conduit for his audience, but on the bright side, they've a dedicated tester for their target audience, a working professional. I don't see the downside

cma• 12 years ago

Even an amateur would be annoyed by hitting the capacitive home-button while drawing.

drzaiusapelord2• 12 years ago

Why is the pen and digitizer for "artists?" One of the faults I see with current gen tablets is that its uncomfortable to use them as a clipboard-like device. I want to use a pen, write things, sign things, draw things, etc.

We can certainly do better then the hunt and peck iOS keyboard or the quicker but often guessing wrong swipe-style Android keyboard.

MS is aiming clearly for the business customer here and things like these are more for the warehouse worker or management annotating something in OneNote or Word, than for the digital artist, but they obvious benefit as well. Why can't we have more win-win situations instead of more narrow use case wins that iOS and Android provide?

MS got ahead by appealing to a broad range of needs, users, and by playing ball with as many people as they possibly can. Sure, that got us the kitchen-sink like Win8, but I imagine Win8.3 or Win9 will have solve a lot of those issues. Ironically, MS has become the 'friendly' software vendor. Watching MS on the ropes is kinda fascinating. You can see them try desperate things, fail, regroup, etc. They're dying to make everyone happy, because of the success of iOS and Android have had with more narrow requirements. Why beat Apple and Google at their game when you can win your own game?

I kinda see the success of the tablet right now similiar to the success of the PDA device in the 90s. Everyone had one, we kinda enjoyed them, then someone asked, "Why can't these things be web browers? Why can't they also be phones? Why can't they also have wireless email?" Then the idea of a portable PDA that wasn't a phone died almost overnight with the success of the Blackberry and Windows Mobile. Now we're asking, "Why can't my tablet do all the things my laptop can? Why can't I have a kick-ass pen with this? Why doesn't it recognize my hand-writing? Why can't I just dock it and use it as a computer with no compromises? Why can't it run Photoshop or Office in full?"

taeric• 12 years ago

Cynicism aside, would it matter? Microsoft is probably extremely happy to make someone with the reach of Gabe happy. For obvious reasons. Thing is, they still have to make him happy.

And really, this is one of the reason's PA has the clout they do. They are rather blunt about the things they do and don't like. And many people trust their judgement. Even agree with it.

Now, if you were worried that they could just bribe him, that would be one thing. But, they are keeping him happy by having a product he likes using. That is huge.

bitwize• 12 years ago

Microsoft care about the money that artists are willing to pay for their product. If that induces them to make a product artists like, great.

nostromo• 12 years ago

Of course they are managing their PR carefully. Apple does the same. That doesn't mean they designed the product to get a nice Penny Arcade write up. My guess is that their audience (gamers) are already in the MS ecosystem anyway.

How ironic: Apple in boardrooms and Microsoft for artists...

Pxtl4• 12 years ago

Designers are a market absolutely owned by Apple in spite of the fact that Apple completely fails to cater to them with artist-oriented hardware. These artists/designers were the early-adopters for OSX.

Designers and artists like Apple because it's well-designed and snappy, but not because it has any art-specific features. MS hopes to take this market and get a proven-important early-adopter market for their new tablet/laptop hybrids.

prawn2• 12 years ago

If they're creating a product that (generally) impresses a professional illustrator as much as it seems they do, I'd say they care.

And Gabe's write-ups always seem very honest to me.

coreymgilmore• 12 years ago

Very well written review. I myself was worried about the switch to N-trig (having dealt with a few products in the past), but I glad to hear it is a non-issue. To me, the additional size is great. While I like the portability of a tablet, having the extra screen real-estate makes me more productive and thus worth the trade off of a larger physical size device. I think MS's third attempt at a tablet is finally the tablet/laptop/combo that I have been waiting for.

instaheat• 12 years ago

I'm not too sure about that drafting board profile. Having not seen the device in person, at that angle it looks like it might break. Is there some form of support running along that line?

lstamour5• 12 years ago

The hinge actually looks quite sturdy to me: http://www.wpcentral.com/sites/wpcentral.com/files/styles/la...

kgermino• 12 years ago

I think this shows how dedicated the Surface Pro team at Microsoft is to making a rock solid product. Yes there's issues with branding, Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once, and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years; but I think the total focus on making the experience as good as possible combined with Microsoft's budget and a little time will yield very impressive results. I certainly hope so.

I love the vision of the Surface Pro with a good dock. A single device that can be docked with monitors and a real keyboard/mouse, used as a laptop or carried as a tablet would make an awesome machine. It seems they are there in principle right now but need some time to get it polished enough to be usable for most.

Too soon to count Microsoft out regardless.

justin669• 12 years ago

Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once

That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8.

edit: it is amusing to me that THIS is the first comment I've made that some clique decided to go medieval on.

edias2• 12 years ago

Windows 8 really isn't that bad.

I avoided it like the plague when it was first released mainly due to the lack of start menu but between the 8.1 update and classic shell maturing a bit, I basically see it as a faster Windows 7 (especially start up on an SSD). I have some minor complaints but so long as I never have to enter the metro UI I've been pretty happy with it overall.

MartinCron• 12 years ago

Mocking Windows 8 like that is like shooting fish in a barrel, it's easy and satisfying but doesn't really move forward the discourse in a meaningful way.

hetman• 12 years ago

No need to get upset if you make a comment that doesn't actually contribute anything to the discussion.

TheRealDunkirk• 12 years ago

I've never seen the Microsoft astroturf so vigorous. The same thing happened when this topic came up on /r/apple. I mean, it's /r/apple, and the pro-Microsoft position was the VAST majority of the comments and upvoting. It makes me think that this iteration is on the chopping block. That, if they can't start really getting some traction with them, they're going to have to pivot somehow. Of course, it could be that there's a lot of love out there for the Surface, even on an Apple fanboi forum, because it's just that good, but, somehow, I doubt it.

Also, yeah, retaliatory downvoting. Yay.

rasz_pl• 12 years ago

...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough.

Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot.

sliverstorm2• 12 years ago

Notice he didn't say it WAS a rock solid product, he said they were dedicated to making it one.

It isn't surprising it has issues; the Surface line is a little less than 2 years old.

The iPhone wasn't polished from day one; it took them a few years too. I don't think it was until the end of the 3G, somewhere around the iPhone 4, where the iPhone was generally accepted as a well-polished product. Which, I might add, was a timespan of ~3 years.

x3sphere• 12 years ago

Not surprising. The MBP Retina suffers from such lag as well, unless you go for the top of the line model with the dedicated graphics card. 2160X1440 res is too much for these integrated chips to handle.

tolmasky• 12 years ago

iOS 7 UI is significantly laggier than iOS 6 (I honestly do not understand how 4S users deal with it, its not fantastic even on 5S). Not to mention glitchier.

nivla6• 12 years ago

and it seems like the company as a whole (including the Surface lines) has absolutely no idea where it wants to be in five years

I think they know exactly where things are going to in the next five years, yet they will try their best to arrive late. Remember the MS Courier?

I believe the future is going to be a hybrid of mobile and desktop. Its already happening with the web and other OSes especially Win8 and Ubuntu (Ubuntu mobile that turns into a full fledged desktop when docked in). So technically MS is on the right track, they are just a bit too early - 70's Groovy in the mid 60's. The biggest gripe I have with them is that sometimes they make something very good and then mess up something very little in a very noticeable way. Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature. I have the Surface Pro I and its perfect for my needs except when I am out of wifi or need directions. Just put in a GPS and 4G already. I have waited for 2 iterations now.

MBCook5• 12 years ago

Remember the MS Courier?

It was never a product, it was a concept.

This, by the way, is why it's a bad idea to show everyone your concepts. They will hold them against you for years.

reiichiroh• 12 years ago

Why didn't they catch these issues before they committed to manufacturing them?

silverbax882• 12 years ago

Except Windows 8 is a bad user experience for Desktop. Great for mobile, and even though it is a 'full-fledged OS', it actually makes things HARDER for users, so much so that they continue to lose Desktop market share, even in corporations. They have got to get it through their heads that a mobile/desktop hybrid does not mean 'One UI for all possible devices'. That seems obvious to me, but it sure hasn't happened.

And Microsoft was trying to push a tablet YEARS before the iPad came along and wowed everyone. They just did it really, really badly and didn't market their efforts well. Kind of like what is happening with Windows 8. If history repeats itself, Apple or Google or Someone New will come along, present the public with the SAME CONCEPT as Windows 8 but do it right and everyone will again claim Microsoft was late to the party. They've never had a lack of vision, but always have had problems with execution.

codeulike6• 12 years ago

A single USB3 port can be used to dock to keyboard, mouse, monitor and ethernet - thats what I do with my Surface Pro 1. Just needed a few cheap hubs and adapters. A proper dock would be nice but its not strictly necessary.

TTPrograms2• 12 years ago

Plus power. That means two cables! That's literally double the number of things I should need to plug in.

I hate to admit that this actually bothers me. It's true of all laptops, though.

JBiserkov2• 12 years ago

You do know there is a proper dock, that taps into the device's USB, DisplayPort and charging port to provide excellent, all-in-one, no-cables-to-plug-in-device experience, right?

http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/hardware-and-...

_broody• 12 years ago

It's already yielded impressive results for me. I bought a SP1 at a big discount, hoping to use it only for digital artwork. I didn't have my hopes too high, as I was aware of all the criticism it had drawn (though honestly, the tech press of today is utterly ridiculous. There's a couple of holdouts of excellent coverage, but for the most part it's comprised of a frothing band of gadget fanboys).

I didn't expect to end up loving the SP1 so much. I'll never be able to go back to a tablet without split-screen multitasking, or to a small laptop without touchscreen and stylus input. Everything else feels incredibly rudimentary in comparison.

The first-generation SP has a good deal of flaws, but none of them have been dealbreakers for me. This is the first device I've truly loved so thoroughly, ever. It feels like it's truly pushing the envelope.

silverbax882• 12 years ago

the blunt truth is Windows 8 is excellent for a mobile/tablet OS, and absolutely horrible as a desktop OS.

So Microsoft needs to just get it's act together and put out/fix/resolve the Desktop OS and focus the tiled OS on mobile and THEN they might be able to gain ground.

ChuckMcM• 12 years ago

Being left handed I wouldn't have the problem Gabe does, instead I'd be activating a half dozen tools on the left margin of the screen. I appreciate the 'wrist' input for the JOT stylus which lets you tell it where you rest your hand normally.

I'll definitely try out the SP3, and I'm still trying to get my hands on a Samsung Note Pro (12" tab). The screen is what I crave, a 12" 3:2 aspect ratio screen with 2160 x 1440 feels pretty close to ideal in this form factor.

ygra• 12 years ago

The touch screen itself would be disabled when you use the pen. It's just that the Windows button on the right side is a hardware button (just touch, too) and doesn't disable itself like the rest of the screen.

jdmichal• 12 years ago

I'd imagine one of the "special options" he's going to be getting from MS is a version which does exactly that; disable the home button with the pen input.

morbius• 12 years ago

I've been a believer in the Surface concept since the beginning. I'd bought a Surface 2 last year and was blown away by just how unique and incredibly inventive the design was. The 16:9 screen and the lack of power really suffered it, though...

But like the MacBook Air, three generations in, and it looks like this is going to be Microsoft's Hail Mary.

I preordered one.

listic3• 12 years ago

Do you think 3 will be really better than the 2?

I'm still waiting for my 2 and I'm not convinced. I'm going to try to "upgrade" from a 12" ThinkPad X series and I really liked that the screen size is smaller. All the other changes don't necessarily feel like an upgrade to me, too.

lstamour5• 12 years ago

Every time I used my Surface Pro (1st gen), I lamented that the screen wasn't bigger. You really feel like you're missing a third of possible screen real estate. Hence why I'm excited about the 3:2 aspect ratio. I always figured the Chromebook Pixel was on to something ;-)

jodrellblank• 12 years ago

2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS.

shakes head

lstamour5• 12 years ago

I don't know if that says more about the Surface or Photoshop...

drzaiusapelord2• 12 years ago

Wait, is this a criticism of Surface, SSDs, or PS? Have you used Adobe products lately? I can't imagine how they could be any more bloaty.

higherpurpose2• 12 years ago

Probably because there's no magic in how they made it so thin for an Intel machine - they just underclocked it a ton in order to achieve a minimal TDP and not need huge air vents, free space and fans.

codeulike6• 12 years ago

it has fans

dpcan• 12 years ago

This was the show stopper comment for me. I was somewhat considering this for my back-and-forth home and office computer. But the thought of ANY stutter for the price I'd be paying keeps me in line to get a regular laptop. It's heavier, but once it's plopped down on a desk and I need it to WORK, the weight factor is gone.

For those looking for more of a working "Tablet", well, maybe it's a different story.

teamonkey4• 12 years ago

My work PC is an 8-core Xeon beast with 12GB of RAM, a 2GB GPU, a SSD and Photoshop still lags while browsing files.

prawn2• 12 years ago

I bought a retina MBP soon after they were announced, I have an SSD and Photoshop feels very average most of the time.

lstamour5• 12 years ago

My only worry with buying the Surface Pro 3 is how I was burned by the Surface Pro 2 late last year when I got an original Surface Pro early last year. Very much like the iPad, they seem to be releasing new Surfii every 6-9 months. Since this model isn't available at launch with the i7 and only has Intel 4400 graphics, I expect early next year to see a bump in specs, perhaps Intel 5100 (or better) graphics by next March? Which has me wondering if I should buy now or hold off. If they had the ntrig bluetooth pen with OneNote integration in a smaller form factor for cheaper, I'd buy that first right now and wait for the larger device to get a bump in performance. That said, no question -- if you want OneNote for school in September or can afford to upgrade once a year, buy now. The only thing I wish it had was a touch-optimized terminal app with tabs ;-)

sliverstorm2• 12 years ago

Should you wait? Just answer the question, "Does it meet my needs?". If you aren't going to use it to draw in Photoshop (for example), it may not make a lick of difference whether you have the i7, or which graphics chip it has.

lstamour5• 12 years ago

It is equally true that the smoothest ink experience is within Microsoft apps such as OneNote. And so, by far, it should have enough performance for note-taking regardless... Well, at worst Microsoft does have a return policy :)

smrtinsert• 12 years ago

3:2 I need this so badly. I hope they solve the lag and handedness issues I really want to love this device.

rplnt• 12 years ago

Finally. A step in the right direction. Wide screen on small desktop-like devices is just stupid. It's OK on tablets and such, but on notebooks? Why anyone thought it's a good idea?

mikevm• 12 years ago

I don't think 16:9 is good on anything, not even for movies. Heck, movies are usually shot in a much wider format anyway.

On tablets and small devices it's even worse. There's a reason why Apple used 4:3 on the iPod -- it's because they're actually thoughtful and pay a lot of attention to the design and use cases of their products, unlike Samsung and others who simply slap together whatever's cheaper (AFAIK 16:9 panels are more cost effective for them) and shove it at consumers.

vacri4• 12 years ago

16:9 means panels can also be used in TV hardware, and you can standardise your tooling. This is why the common 'decent' midsize computer monitor has fallen from 1920x1200 to 1920x1080, because the latter has 16:9 panels that can be used in TVs.

nileshtrivedi• 12 years ago

People have been able to run Ubuntu on Surface Pro 2 but it took some effort (custom kernel etc). If this has improved and if the new Surface pro can dual-boot Ubuntu without any issues, I'd definitely buy one. The hardware concept is too tempting.

listic3• 12 years ago

I'm waiting for my 2 to use with Ubuntu. Totally unconvinced whether "3" is an upgrade to "2". Don't get fooled by numbers, look at what matters.

noisy_boy2• 12 years ago

I've always wondered what stops MS for making it easier for Linux to be installed on their products.

There will always be a class of people who will stick with Windows and they don't/won't care about Linux compatibility anyway. So nothing to lose there.

Then there is the un-captured "technical/Linux user" segment to whom they can sell Surface so thats more devices sold. Unless they are making a loss on the device just to push Windows - even then, at least this segment would appreciate the quality of the device (and this segment tends to care about/be more loyal to quality) which is the kind of impression you want to make on people. If nothing else, that is a good to have thing for future devices.

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

It has to be really frustrating to be an engineer working on Surface and having to deal with the HN echo chamber, or MS bashing (some from Apple fanboys), or totally unrelated comments.

Maybe it should be a rule that these folks below post their own product for review. Hopefully they have something significant that can be open to critique.

Of course, that would not be too much fun.

- nivla: "Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature."

- rasz_pl: "...rock solid product.. notice the number 3 in the name of said product? and still not good enough. Not to mention UI lags. 2014 and GUI is lagging. Someone needs to get shot."

- justin66 "> Windows 8 tries to be too many things at once That is a very, very generous description of Windows 8."

- jodrellblank: "2014, Intel Core i5, SSD and stutters when 'browsing files' in PS. shakes head"

- carlio: "I feel a little cynical by saying this, but does Microsoft really care about artists as much as they care about the audience they're reaching via Penny Arcade?"

- enraged_camel: "It's the execution that is lacking significantly. I've always said that Microsoft is really, really good at engineering, and really, really bad at UX and usability. After reading Gabe's review, I'm disappointed that this is still the case."

[EDIT: Software to "product" + line breaks]

HNJohnC• 12 years ago

In fairness, just the single fact that they put a button exactly where the hand needs to go when actually using the product in one of it's core use-cases is a pretty good excuse for some MS bashing.

They could have taken 5 minutes, given the prototype to an artist and noticed the hand placement issue immediately.

You can be an apologist if you wish, but I don't know how you can excuse such a glaring failure of design.

shurcooL• 12 years ago

Saying that it's a "failure of design" suggests there's an easy non-failure alternative. If so, can you tell us what it is? Are you sure that solution won't fail under some conditions?

People like to take something that exists, take the problems it solves as a given, and act like all that's left is fixing the problems remaining. That's not how it works.

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

The issue is with the "fatalism" of the comments. For example, you refer to a "glaring failure" when this can be fixed with a simple "drawing mode" patch.

kstenerud• 12 years ago

You'd be surprised at the number of "obvious" things you'll miss when shipping your product. The fact is, the people designing these things are human, with their own biases and blind spots. Furthermore, your beta test group will probably miss a few "glaring" problems with your product (even if you've shipped multiple versions before!)

In the resulting bashing and crowd pleasing "this sux" comments, there will be a few people who WANT to love the product but just can't, and are willing to explain exactly why. Those are the people you latch on to, give free products to, and pick their brains for their insight so that you can iterate better on your next version.

And that's exactly what Microsoft is doing. This is the correct strategy.

mcintyre1994• 12 years ago

I'm surprised they don't give test devices (under NDA presumably) way earlier to people like Gabe, using your evangelist bloggers to improve the product before they write their public review seems smart.

shearnie• 12 years ago

They should have tested on a right handed designer at least. Panos looks left handed, is he the only guy that has played with it?

vacri4• 12 years ago

They may have done just that, but their artist was left-handed. Or a right handed artist whose hand position didn't touch that area. Or a test group made up of these kinds of people. Also, doing User Acceptance Testing certainly does not 'take 5 minutes'. It's far more difficult that people give it credit for - if it were as trivial as you imply, then there'd be no kudos for good design

ansimionescu• 12 years ago

Following your brilliant thoughts on criticism in general, I propose that we ban all tech reviews, literary critics, and all sorts of critical thinking, with the exception, of course, of people who have created flawless pieces of work. Roger Ebert should be dug up and then ceremoniously shot and stripped of all of his awards.

Also, it goes without saying that if you want to submit any criticism to this comment, you'll have to submit a full resume, a short fugue, and run a marathon backwards.

edit: Heh, I might have gone a bit over the top. On-topic: SP3 is a seriously impressive piece of work and I sense great things coming from Microsoft under Satya's reign (if only they would start properly leveraging their wonderful MSR).

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

I am going to assume your comment is in good faith.

My observation was that a single glitch is seen as some sort of disaster, when in reality is a simple issue in one scenario that clearly was not prioritized over many other scenarios. Anybody knows there are constraints in design, and clearly they decided one thing over another.

We can all be arm chair generals, but my focus is on the engineers themselves who must be frustrated that their work is generalized as a global failure because "it's Microsoft."

higherpurpose2• 12 years ago

Remember this is a review by a designer. There's little doubt the Surface Pro is pretty good for that. The problem Microsoft has is that it's not really a mainstream device. Most people would be better served by a laptop with more storage that works better (not lag, not touch-confusing interface, and so on).

Also, Microsoft made a huge mistake keeping the 4400 GPU. It was already slow for the 1080p Surface Pro 2. And they kept it for Surface Pro 3, which has even higher resolution. By comparison, the Macbook Air comes with a much faster Intel HD 5000 GPU, and it has a much lower resolution.

codeulike6• 12 years ago

The i7 Surfaces will have a better GPU than the 4400, I hear.

edit: below: "Core i7 version is the i7-4650U model, with HD5000 graphics."

enraged_camel2• 12 years ago

So you need to be a cook before you can criticize the food that the cook serves you?

What a crock of bullshit.

colmvp• 12 years ago

So you need to be a coder before you can criticize the code that a programmer writes? What a crock of bullshit.

randomfool• 12 years ago

This appears to be hyperliner's first comment ever. Tough to tell how impartial they are.

rayiner2• 12 years ago

This isn't elementary school where everyone gets an "A" for effort. Microsoft has demonstrated with the Surface line an institutional inability to execute. From Surface RT shipping with a buggy beta of Office to continuing major deficiencies in Windows Phone (no forward button in IE until 8.1?) to the schizo nature of Windows 8 that only makes sense if you look from the engineering side and realize that its schizo only because it would be too hard to make everything run in Metro. Yes, there are engineering compromises that have to be made, but they shouldn't result in what the user perceives to be a compromised product.

Sometimes its better to not do something unless you can do it right. E.g. Surface RT shouldn't have shipped without a final version of Office. It featured prominently in every rewview, and almost nobody went back and updated theirs. E.g. Surface Pro shouldn't have shipped without Haswell. E.g. Surface Pro 2 shouldn't have shipped without the major firmware update that improved battery life by 20%. E.g. Apple has wisely avoided shipping a Retina MBA because they can't do it yet without regressing battery life.

Microsoft is playing in Apple's price range, and is late to the game. What it lacks is Apple's ability to take on limited ambitious, but (usually) execute those without major flaws.

Spearchucker• 12 years ago

I'm reading this and thinking about the history of the iPhone. Starting with no copy/paste (something even available in elementary school) thru to maps. How is Apple's track record different to Microsoft/Surface?

[Edit] My intent is not to be facetious. What I'm seeing (and I may well be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time) is consistency bias - our compulsive desire to be consistent with past decisions. If I have an iPad then the iPad must be good and the Surface must be bad.

Joeri2• 12 years ago

To be fair though, apple has its own schizo nature compromise going on with the iOS / OS X divide. iOS's inability to multi-task or scale up to bigger screens makes it unsuitable for productivity, and OS X's lack of touch support makes it unsuitable for light-weight entertainment and real on-the-go usage.

In fact, now that W8 has made me used to combining productivity and touch in a single device I've found that I dislike using all non-touch PC's, including apple's.

qq66• 12 years ago

I don't know about A's for effort. All I know is that I spend 10 hours on my Surface Pro 2 for every hour I spend on the iPad.

justin669• 12 years ago

If those are the sorts of comments that you view as over the top, I question your familiarity with tech criticism, or criticism in general. Making mistakes on a shipping product has consequences. Clownpenisdotfart on the internet spending a sentence emoting his dislike is the very, very least of them.

The thing is, the engineers KNOW all the stuff we're talking about, and the products ship anyway. I bet they're frustrated for reasons a little deeper than an HN "shakes head" comment.

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

A product needs to ship at some point. You can't expect a product to be polished 100% free of limitations or defects for 100% of the scenarios.

Crito• 12 years ago

I can't help but wonder if perhaps the perceived failings in Microsoft products could be the result of an internal attitude towards criticism that is similar to the attitude towards criticism that you are expressing here.

Does Microsoft have an internal culture that discourages criticism, which results in criticism from the outside world catching Microsoft employees by surprise?

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

I only would like to point out that all the comments I copy-pasted are gross generalizations, unrelated to the main points in OP comments.

You do have a fair "design process" question.

nivla6• 12 years ago

I doubt it, the surface team actually does regular AMA's after a product launches. They do listen to criticisms and manage to correct most of them in the next iteration. If you watched the keynote event, Panay talks about it, especially in regards to the trackpad issues. Not to mention the usual flurry of "M$" and "Who uses bing?" comments they have to deal with.

bcbrown• 12 years ago

No, there is plenty of criticism internally. It's just not criticism about the same sort of thing. It's more political than technical/product.

Frankly, I don't think my friends who work on Windows Phone realize that it's a failure. When I last talked to former coworkers from Windows 8, they didn't think it was a failure.

gisenberg3• 12 years ago

Comments like these genuinely make me wonder if a non-trivial chunk of the crowd here is paid marketers and/or folks not being honest about full disclosure.

Touting the HN echo chamber in the context of the Surface is hard to take in good faith. Frustrated Surface engineers? As someone who waited in line on launch day and returned their Surface within a week, how about frustrated Surface customers? After reading a review where the device sounds like a strong step back and was developed in isolation without customer feedback, I think your sympathies are misplaced.

itsboring• 12 years ago

They do this on reddit too..

Gorkys• 12 years ago

Are you reading the same HN as me? I'd say 70% of the comments here are disparaging towards the Surface.

nivla6• 12 years ago

nivla: "Seriously, I am starting to believe that these tiny screwups are their signature."
Maybe it should be a rule that these folks below post their own product for review.

Umm... that is exactly what I am doing. I own a Surface Pro 1 and I had a genuine criticism about it. From my previous comments you can easily deduce that I am far from echo chambers of MS bashing. However that does not mean I can't criticize the products I own, like and have experience with. If I din't it will make me a blind fanboy and trust me I have been on that path before and it doesn't have any merits.

MS like every other company has its strength and weaknesses and genuine criticisms will only help them improve their product line and keep them motivated.

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

All companies make "tiny screwups" in all non-trivial efforts.

badman_ting• 12 years ago

Serious question: What makes them fanboys but not you?

hyperliner10• 12 years ago

It's a fair question.

I think a fanboy would have called out (listed) every single criticism in the thread, not just the ones I called out as not adding to the conversation, as defined by me somewhere else in this thread.

I am looking into whether a Surface could extend my Mac, iMac, iPad, Windows Server and Windows 7 (no Android yet :( collection.

peter-row• 12 years ago

Apple Fanboy and MS basher here.

Seriously, the Surface is a great move. Aside from the whole Pro / RT naming thing, of course (confusing customers is not good).

The Surface is, AFAIK, the only good tablet PC out there - it's a real flagship product for Wintel tablets. The OEMs will eventually beat MS on value, but I suspect Microsoft will be OK with that. Microsoft can afford to take a loss creating the market for Windows 8 tablets, and won't be upset if other OEMs start competing in the space - they'll then make money on software sales.

MS needs tablet PCs to be a thing. Tablets are a thing - people love tablets. People will either choose between a laptop and a tablet, or just a tablet that can also run Office. If there's good Windows tablets, people will tend to go with that. As Intel improves mobile x86 chips, the choice will be even easier.

Microsoft does not want everyone using Android / iOS tablet, because then the software ecosystem will move to iOS / Android apps (as it is already doing).

Whether Microsoft should have made the hardware itself, or let OEMs do it is a good question, but I think they were right to do it themselves. Just look at what the competition has been like - every other Windows tablet I've seen (not a huge sample) has been pitiful - ugly and either not portable enough, or grossly underpowered.

Also, making Surface probably gives them the institutional knowledge to make Windows better for tablets.

codeulike6• 12 years ago

Yeah Surface is to Windows as Nexus is to Android.

MS accept (now) that its going to be a niche product but are OK with that because it leaves space for the OEMs

orionblastar3• 12 years ago

Actually when Microsoft had Windows XP based tablets in 2002 they worked better than these Surface tablets. I don't know how they got changed and how they aren't as good as the ones in 2002 that had slower processors and less RAM etc.

I've been using tablets since the early 1990's when Toshiba had the Windows 3.1 based pen tablets using MS-DOS 5.0 with the option for MS-OS/2 1.21 if you wanted it.

nlawalker• 12 years ago

If I were on the Surface team, I'd be A) elated that the product is generating discussion, and B) watching this thread (and others like it) like a hawk and taking notes. From the right perspective, this thread looks like a room full of people all competing to be first in line to tell Microsoft that they'll buy their new product if they just fixed their one complaint.

Negativity is wrapping paper on the gift of feedback - it is to be torn off and thrown away, because it has no value.

bztzt2• 12 years ago

I once worked at Microsoft on a product that was actually getting almost entirely positive feedback (while still in preview) for once and ... it was kind of frustrating. I started scouring the internet for "<product name> hate" (and did find haters, some with interesting povs) :)

CamperBob22• 12 years ago

Well, when you play in the big leagues you need to bring your A game. They aren't doing that.

Most of the negative comments in the article can be distilled into a single phrase: they don't use their own product. Otherwise, for instance, the button that dumps you back to the desktop wouldn't work the way it does, be placed where it is, or be so difficult to disable. (You could say much the same of Metro as a whole, but that's not germane here.)

Failure to eat your own dog food is a mortal sin in this business.

balls187• 12 years ago

It has to be really frustrating to be an engineer working on Surface and having to deal with the HN echo chamber, or MS bashing (some from Apple fanboys), or totally unrelated comments.

Not really.

In MSFT, engineers (and pretty much all other employees) are sheltered from the criticisms of the outside world.

I think that is one of the reasons they struggle. They're not plugged into what the rest of the world thinks.

MSFT is weird, they do something rad, like the Xbox and 360, and totally fuck it up with the XboxOne. They take a mediocre product like Excel, and make it rad (seriously I love Excel 2013). Then they take Office2013, and make it stupid with Office365 (You can't install a single Office 365 product. You have to install the entire fuggen suite...).

Windows 8 was a really cool idea, but I'm not sure how they managed to get so many people pissed about it.

konstruktor2• 12 years ago

One of the most uncomfortable moments of my career was talking to some guys in a pub during a conference, mentioning where I work, and seeing a flash of contempt in one of their faces. This person proceeded to make some disparaging comments about the company and the main product. That sucks, and it's easy to take personally.

However, I once chose to work at that company, have continued to choose to work there, and I get paid for it every month. Who am I to tell anybody how to criticise my work? I'm a professional, and being able to tolerate even harsh criticism is part of what I think is professional integrity.

localhost• 12 years ago

Looks like the Core i7 version is the i7-4650U model, with HD5000 graphics.

Details in Ed Bott's article: http://www.zdnet.com/which-cpus-will-you-find-in-the-surface...

Link to Intel specs: http://ark.intel.com/products/75114/Intel-Core-i7-4650U-Proc...

Deinos• 12 years ago

Just saw that at neowin. Very tempted with the i7 now. I wonder how that will affect battery life.

JBiserkov2• 12 years ago

From what I understand, it should actually be better for the battery life, as it has a lower base clock

http://ark.intel.com/compare/76308,75114

richard_cubano• 12 years ago

He says that the reduction in sensitivity on the digitizer "scared the hell out of [him]."

Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by a bear.

louthy• 12 years ago

You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by a bear.

Why do people say stuff like this? You know what scares the hell out of me? Getting mauled by two bears.

lightyrs• 12 years ago

Hyperbole is what's known as a "rhetorical device" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhetorical_device) — a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or provoke a rational argument from an emotional display of a given perspective or action.

gcb0• 12 years ago

i waited for this tablet release, and then, seconds before the impulse buy i remembered i should wait for Gabe reviews :) ...saved by the bell!

that said, i'm still anxious to a tablet with a decent perf/battery life and a good pen. tired of only consuming content on tablets. and i'm sure a keyboard is not feasible anytime soon. while i could already code with my palm custom pen input... albeit painfully, it was less painful then any apple soft keyboard.

JimmaDaRustla• 12 years ago

Reading other comments, the i7 version has better graphics, hopefully not laggy...and hopefully a software fix to disable home button when pen is in range...but...the i7 ain't cheap.

_asciiker_• 12 years ago

As an old MCSE I am happy to see the Surface 3 reviews, for me (an Android tablet user) this means Microsoft is fighting not to lose the tablet race. The idea of replacing the laptop with a very well designed keyboard "docking station" is brilliant. And it does seem that they did do everything else right!

vacri4• 12 years ago

As a Thinkpad user, I have bad memories of docking stations. They're nice to have, but they're ridiculously expensive for a hunk of plastic and some interconnects.

noisy_boy2• 12 years ago

As a Dell user, I couldn't get my _Dell_ monitor working with _Dell_ E-Port Plus Port Replicator docking station (USD 219) when used with my _Dell_ E7240 laptop - in Linux (and this laptop has the option of selling with Ubuntu). Dell support were very patient and after 1 hour and docking station firmware update later (done via Windows obviously), it still doesn't work. Works fine in Windows (but only after firmware update).

Now I use the "hunk of plastic" as a tilting platform to let the laptop vent exhale easier.

interpol_p2• 12 years ago

I'm really pleased to hear about how good the NTrig digitiser is. Seems like an awesome painting tool.

Pxtl4• 12 years ago

Counter-point on surface-pro by another webcomic author:

http://www.pvponline.com/news/surface-pro-vs-the-cintiq-13hd

Basically, Scott Kurtz found that the stylus lag on every tablet was so bad that he ended up using his Wacom Cintiq, which requires a wall-outlet.

seanmcdirmid• 12 years ago

How did Kurtz get access to a Surface Pro 3 in January?

Pxtl4• 12 years ago

To clarify, this is about an older model surface pro, however Krahulik/Gabriel indicated that the SP3 didn't improve on the pen lag that seems to plague the entire form-factor.

I just brought it up because Krahulik is one of the louder cheerleaders of the Surface Pro line, and so one of his colleagues in the same field that disagrees is worth reading too, even if that article is now a bit dated with the launch of the SP3.

hyp0• 12 years ago

It's interesting that there doesn't appear to be lag when he's actually drawing.

vfclists• 12 years ago

Apple shills or what?

richardw• 12 years ago

What kills me about this thing is that it's still an almost-notebook. They take a tablet and make you choose to run almost-Windows or Windows. It's most visible difference to other tablets is a great keyboard concept, but it's not quite a notebook in that it now needs a kickstand to stand up. I'd rather have a notebook that has a rational keyboard that holds the screen at whatever angle than something that is almost exactly the same, but somehow inferior.

I'm really not against the whole idea of a Windows tablet, but if the keyboard is that important...just make a keyboard that handles the weight of the screen. In fact, the keyboard I bought for my mother-in-law's iPad does that just fine (minus the variable-angle) so I'd still rather have the iPad or Android tablets. Or a well-executed ultrabook. Easier for working on the couch/plane/train etc.

Still, I'll forward this article to an artist friend. It looks great for a drawing tablet and maybe it'll work for him.

enscr• 12 years ago

The app shown in the pictures is "Manga Studio"

girvo• 12 years ago

I'll never understand why the comments on certain products and brands end up being so vitriolic and "my Dad can beat up your Dad!"-styled discussions are considered par for the course.

Frankly, I have Apple everything, because it works for me. My family use a lot of Windows and Microsoft products, because it works for them.

At the end of the day, these are tools, not lifestyles. I think we'd all do well to remember that you are not your gadgets...

exodust• 12 years ago

Agreed, but I think reasonable people can filter out the pointless childish noise, and find the useful information and opinions.

Me, I'm trying to break into 3D design in my "spare time" and I need either a Wacom Cintiq or one of these Surface Pros for painting on 3d textures in applications such as Substance Painter. I am undecided. The Cintiq looks really nice as a permanent workstation tool, but relies on a computer to run the application. Perhaps I need to accept that what I am wishing for is merely an input device for my main computer, rather than a completely separate computer.

snarfy2• 12 years ago

The Penny Arcade guys live a little too close to Redmond for me to believe their reviews of Microsoft products are unbiased.

Gigablah• 12 years ago

If you read the article, he's actually quite critical of the product.

snarfy2• 12 years ago

Ack. I read right up to the 'now the frustrating stuff' without seeing it and closed the tab thinking 'not more of this crap from PA'.

I stand corrected.

orionblastar3• 12 years ago

I mean yes it is good for art and drawing cartoons.

I have tried every Surface tablet and I don't like them. Just my opinion. I got a Nook HD+ that works better and cost less, and will sell it now that Nook tablets are not updated anymore and maybe buy a Kindle HDX to replace it. Even the Android tablets are more responsive.

My son has an iPad that is faster as well and it is only an iPad 3.

We can get pens for them that draw art and cartoons.

Just my opinion, the Surface could work better for others in different things. But for me and my son, we chose a different tablet due to the Surface being sluggish and locking up at times when we demoed it at the Microsoft store.

jamesbritt2• 12 years ago

Which of these other devices provide pressure-sensitive drawing, and how well does it work?

I'm curious because that's a feature that can be the deciding factor for me.

orionblastar3• 12 years ago

For Android: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.dsandler.a...

For iOS: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/procreate-sketch-paint-creat...

Pressure sensitive stylus: http://www.adonit.net/jot/touch/

From what I know all iPads and Android tablets have pressure sensitive apps and touch screens and you can buy a stylus that supports it as well.

My son draws for school on both the iPad and Nook. We don't seem to have any issues nor do we need Photoshop and other expensive software.

There are attachable bluetooth keyboards for Android and iPad tablets that work better than the Surface ones. I don't know why people seem to think that only Surface has an attachable keyboard and stand?

I mean these features were standard and options standard with iOS and Android before the Surface tablets marketed them as exclusive to the Surface series only.

For iPad devices go to an Apple store.

For Android tablets some of the mobile carriers might be able to demo them for you.

Don't take my word for it, what my son and I like might not meet your standards. Look for yourself, but don't think that only the Surface has those features.

ryan-allen• 12 years ago

I just bought a Surface 2 Pro 4 weeks ago. It is an awesome piece of hardware.

The pen is great, I use it to sketch up stuff in OneNote like I would in my regular notebook.

I connect it to an external display and use a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse at work, and I confuse people by running a fullscreen mintty.exe with terminal vim in my linux VM.

The stand is why I bought it over a Dell Venue or a Lenovo Helix (even though I think the Helix is the best offering).

It's a brilliant machine. I sold my Macbook Air 11" to buy it too! I sure hope Apple make something like this one day that runs proper OS X :)

Surface Pro 3

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