Starting An Airline

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/commercial/startup/index.page

by rickdale • 12 years ago

96 68 12 years ago

boeing.com

fosk• 12 years ago

If you want to be a Millionaire, start with a billion dollars and launch a new airline (Richard Branson).

lutorm• 12 years ago

That's a variation on an old aviation proverb: "How do you make a small fortune in aviation? Start with a large one."

dfc2• 12 years ago

And countless other industries, eg architecture, casinos, farming: http://thinkexist.com/quotes/with/keyword/small_fortune/

jayzalowitz2• 12 years ago

Anyone else want to kickstart an airline that operates with as few humans as possible? You aren't allowed to check luggage at all...(all the underbelly goes to companies like fedex and ups) just attacking it as an engineering problem?

balls1872• 12 years ago

I'd go for the opposite.

An exclusive airline that is basically 1st class through out the entire cabin.

* No carry-on suit cases

* Free alcohol

* Free meals on all flights

Membership required, and can be revoked by:

* Talking on your cell phone

* Not following crew member instructions

* Trying to prevent the person infront of you from reclining

* Trying to jump the line and board when your row isn't called

* Not being able to actually lift 40lbs but requesting an exit row seat anyway

* Trying to smash your carry on into an already full overhead bin

* Listening to music loudly etc.

jayzalowitz2• 12 years ago

I actually sort of like the membership idea, that makes the rest really easy and invalidates the need for a "rewards program" Just always provide good service.

iLoch• 12 years ago

You said:

    * No carry-on suit cases

And then you said:

    * Trying to smash your carry on into an already full overhead bin

Are you sure this isn't just a list of your air travel pet peeves? :)

sachinag• 12 years ago

Eos tried business class only from JFK to London. It didn't work.

kd5bjo• 12 years ago

see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_Airlines

blantonl• 12 years ago

... and this is why entrepreneurship in airlines has not hit it's peak - yet.

us0r2• 12 years ago

This is basically International airlines:

* Free alcohol * Free meals on all flights

plus some.

batiudrami2• 12 years ago

The people have spoken, and they like cheap as shit tickets in cattle class with no extras. And it's easy to see why - I'd pay maybe 10% more for an experience you describe, but it wouldn't be 10%, it'd be at least 200% more, probably significantly higher than that.

Maybe when I'm older and a 12 hour flight in economy becomes really unpleasant instead of just an inconvenience.

mattmaroon3• 12 years ago

I wouldn't fly an airline that forced me to check a bag. Getting it back at the gate takes too long.

Anechoic• 12 years ago

An exclusive airline that is basically 1st class through out the entire cabin.

Midwest Express tried this in the late 1990's-early aughts. It didn't work out for them.

bherms• 12 years ago

The planes practically (can) fly themselves these days now anyway. Remove the ticket people, checking bags, food/drinks on the plane, and build a nice, efficient website for booking... Then structure your routes on flexible demand. Almost like crowdbuying tickets... There are probably a low number of people (outside business travel) that need to be somewhere at an exact time. Operate the ticket buying process like Massdrop. Let the collective decide when a plane takes off.

There's a lot of tweaks that could change the airline industry, but certainly no easy task.

rabino• 12 years ago

With the exorbitant costs of maintenance and fuel, plus the prorated cost of the plane itself, I'm wondering how much impact those small-ish changes could have.

zachlipton• 12 years ago

Outside business travel? Bahahhahaa. Airlines make most of their money on business travel.

btgeekboy2• 12 years ago

Much of this sounds like Spirit Airlines.

Tortoise• 12 years ago

The problem is that you can't actually fire anyone on board the plane. Those flight attendants aren't there to serve your drinks. They're there to guide/assist you "in the unlikely event of an emergency."

The pesky regulations say they need x attendants per passenger.

dsl• 12 years ago

Engineers often fail to understand that sometimes the cheapest solution is to throw minimum wage workers at the problem.

alttab• 12 years ago

Unless its not the cheapest solution on a different time horizon.

mattmaroon3• 12 years ago

It's because they don't understand basic finance concepts. If they knew what time value of money and net present value meant, they'd realize that something that paid for itself in ten years is a bad investment.

Everyone in every discipline should be required to take Finance 101.

jonah2• 12 years ago

Budget airlines like Allegiant [1] streamline thing to save money.

* Very few ground staff - say 4 at a small-to-mid-sized destination. They do all tasks: Ticket agent, baggage handler, gate agent.

* No connecting flights - direct only.

* All the same type of equipment (MD-80s) to streamline maintenance.

etc.

[1]

kator• 12 years ago

It's called Ryan Air[1]

[1] http://www.ryanair.com/

chimeracoder• 12 years ago

It's unlikely ever to happen, but I wish someone would start an airline that only requires pre-2001 levels of security screening[0]. I'd be interested in seeing how having some competition on security policies would affect the larger market. Would people value the sense of security that the theatre gives them, or would they prefer the less invasive measures?

Unfortunately, AFAIK, every airport in the country is required either to use TSA screening or to use private security companies whose policies are set by the TSA[1], so this is unlikely ever to happen.

[0] With the exception of ensuring that cockpit doors are always closed and locked during flight - this was the one absolutely critical security improvement that came out of 9/11.

[1] I believe SFO is one airport that uses a private company.

btgeekboy2• 12 years ago

The TSA screens operations running under 14 CFR 121; there's not much you can do about that other than fly under 14 CFR 135, which is for "Commuter and On-Demand Operations." (This is how companies like Surf Air get away with not having to have TSA screening.

maccard2• 12 years ago

Ryanair already have this down to a T. You don't actually interact with any ryanair staff from the time you book your flight until you're passing through the gate. At that point you meet the cabincrew/stewards for your flight, two at the door who check your boarding pass and glance casually at your passport, and you then walk across the runway to board the plane in no particular order. Everything is an extra,you're bombarded with ads for the duration of the flight (particularly annoying on a 45minute flight where they start at takeoff and keep going until you land). You also print your own boarding pass, and are normally located as far as humanly possible from the airport terminal, in an airport nowhere near the location advertised (London Stansted, Barcelona Reus, Paris Beauvais).

But I can fly to London return for 30 euro pretty much any time of the year in return for that.

elwell• 12 years ago

One of the situations when the V in MVP has to be taken very seriously.

leorocky2• 12 years ago

Previous discussion:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6437831

dang2• 12 years ago

Thanks; burying as dupe.

rickdale• 12 years ago

I submitted this story. Honestly I submitted to hn because after stumbling on the site I thought I had seen it on hn before, so I figured submitting was the fastest way to find discussion. Is there a reason that the submission didn't get flagged from the get go?

danieldrehmer• 12 years ago

With all this wealth of information available at my fingertips, it is now 10,000% more likely that I will start an airline.

Yet, the probability this will ever happen still is very close to zero.

djyaz12002• 12 years ago

Before anyone goes out and does this research supply of planes. Locked up for many years to come from Boeing and Airbus. CEO of American Airlines outlines this in details and suggests fairs will go up and stay up as a result. Not sure if he's right but he seems pretty sure of it.

dbloom3• 12 years ago

There's a healthy market for used planes.

Allegiant is a great example. They fly slightly less fuel efficient MD-80s which can be bought at bargain prices from the legacy carriers (MD-80's are those narrow body jets with the engines in the back and the 3-2 seating arrangement). They make it work by flying nonstop flights from smaller airports (without competing carriers on those routes), with low frequency. The low frequency also gives them longer until they have to do a heavy maintenance check -- which, for an older MD-80, usually costs more than the plane is worth. http://www.fastcompany.com/1325762/heard-allegiant-air-why-i... .

dbloom3• 12 years ago

The low frequency also gives them longer until they have to do a heavy maintenance check -- which, for an older MD-80, usually costs more than the plane is worth.

By the way, that's why we have this phenomenon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_boneyard

livestyle2• 12 years ago

That article was fantastic. Thanks for sharing.

It fits Clayton Christensen's disruptive model perfectly.

nl• 12 years ago

This is almost completely wrong, and more about AA wanting to be able to raise prices.

Boing and Airbus are the only viable suppliers of long-range commercial aircraft, and if you order a 787 or A380 you will need to wait[1].

But it's not "locked up" so much as it takes a fair while to build, and they do have order books. But they are desperate to sell as many as they can (stories of orders being cancelled aren't uncommon).

In the short and medium range market there are a number of other suppliers. Embraer and Bombardier both have planes that sell well. For the more adventurous there are the Irkut MS-21 and Sukhoi Superjet 100 (both pretty modern, but I think only in service with Aeroflot)

As noted elsewhere, there is a large market in second hand aircraft.

[1] There is actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-96, but I think that has only been sold to Aeroflot and other Russian airlines. Edit: turns out the passenger version of this is now out of production.

sytelus• 12 years ago

Air travel is a commodity which means razer thin margins and fight for shaving off every last cent. In this type of markets, usually way to succeed is provide upscale product but with only slightly higher margins. In other words, instead of fighting for margins at the bottom, you fight bit above. In airlines case this strategy would translate in to providing all business class plane but with only 15% extra prices, for example. Lot of customers who are extremely unhappy about nickling and diming would flock to this model.

mattmaroon3• 12 years ago

The problem is that first class takes up much more than 15% more space per person than coach. You'll notice there are three chairs per side per row in a standard 787 coach, but only 2 first class. That's 50% more right there, plus there's more leg room so it's worse.

Their margins are already thin even packing it as they do, so at only the equivalent of 2/3 current capacity that would be a recipe for failure. They'd have to charge probably twice as much.

neom• 12 years ago

I agree with this, whenever I think about the airline industry (and I do often as I travel 100% of my time for work) - I believe the only way we can really re-invent it, is to change the plane, not the airlines.

gumby• 12 years ago

Boeing should know: not only do they sell to a lot of airlines, they founded United Airlines [0] until they were forced to divest.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_United_Airlines#Begi...

dsr_2• 12 years ago

This reminds me of a vendor of networking products that we could call L. They ended up with a portfolio of machines that were almost perfect for handling all the dial-up traffic an ISP could want, with good management and reference designs and consultants ready to show you how to start or grow your ISP with many many points-of-presence.

And they sold their expensive equipment and made lots of money, only it turned out that many ISPs couldn't really afford all this upfront, and it made sense for L to operate a financing company itself and finance the purchases of the expensive hardware. There was a huge and growing demand, and if an ISP defaulted, well, L could take back the equipment and refurb it and sell it to the next company that came along.

Only when the market actually saturated, there was L holding all these valuable financing agreements backed mostly by the hardware that nobody new wanted to buy.

vxNsr• 12 years ago

Is the next letter of that company's name u?

jpollock• 12 years ago

Wasn't just L that happened to, N had the same issue.

dfc2• 12 years ago

I am curious why you used the mysterious L in your comment instead of referring to Lucent by name? None of what you wrote was libelous. For people not around at the time it will not be obvious who you are referring to. As a result only the "cool older kids" know who L is and it makes it hard for newcomers to learn about the history of the industry. Personally I do not think hacker news comments should be written in such a way as to reinforce boundaries and segregate "people in the know" from the unwashed masses.

For anyone interested in learning more: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucent#History

dsr_2• 12 years ago

Because it doesn't really matter which company L was: the point applies across markets. When you finance all of your sales with only the products you make as collateral, market failures come easily.

dmitrygr• 12 years ago

Prices for current boeing jets: http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/startup/pdf/busi...

mermoose• 12 years ago

Warren Buffett: “If a capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk back in the early 1900s, he should have shot Orville Wright. He would have saved his progeny money. But seriously, the airline business has been extraordinary. It has eaten up capital over the past century like almost no other business because people seem to keep coming back to it and putting fresh money in. You’ve got huge fixed costs, you’ve got strong labor unions and you’ve got commodity pricing. That is not a great recipe for success.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2774088/Buffett-My-elepha...

Starting An Airline

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