London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-27317164

by sp8 • 12 years ago

94 155 12 years ago

bbc.co.uk

nakedrobot24• 12 years ago

What a deplorable, luddite attitude.

The black taxis should be banned for some period of time for this behavior.

"The Licensed Taxi Drivers Association complains that Uber's drivers are using a smartphone app to calculate fares despite it being illegal for private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters." So using this website in your car is illegal?! http://www.worldtaximeter.com/

corin_7• 12 years ago

If that law is correct then it seems they have a perfectly valid complaint, using an app on your phone instead of a dedicated device is just circumventing the spirit of the law.

Whether the law should still exist, and whether this method of protest is appropriate, are other questions of course.

nakedrobot24• 12 years ago

"private vehicles to be fitted with taximeters"

You can measure the distance on a paper map as well. The smartphone app is only slightly more convenient. I do not think they are breaking the spirit of the law.

barnabee3• 12 years ago

Transport For London (the governing body) have set it is not illegal as the law only covers meters that are mechanically attached to the car not an app that uses information about location/time/distance.

So they're complaining that they'd like the law to be different so that Uber could be temporarily banned until they code a workaround. Pointless.

fennecfoxen• 12 years ago

Also, causing gridlock and disrupting the commute is not the best way to make friends and influence people. Unless you have a really clear moral outrage, people will get pretty upset at you as well as those you have a problem with. (If it were otherwise the transit unions would have a much easier time of things.)

"illegal to install taximeters" isn't going to resonate with the public, I think. It's hardly the abuse and exploitation by an monstrous and inhuman Management that kick-started unionization in the first place, anyway.

oneeyedpigeon3• 12 years ago

What would probably resonate is the 'no tax paid in the UK' argument - that's something that everyone can understand as a negative.

rmc5• 12 years ago

"This taxi driver could be a criminal and/or scam you in the fare" might resonate with people.

It might also tap into latent racism about immigrants driving around with the same level of licencing.

nodata2• 12 years ago

What a deplorable, luddite attitude.

Well presumably you know their side of the story too?

Presumably (hopefully someone who actually knows can fill us in) the taxi drivers have spent huge amounts of time learning The Knowledge and buying their cars and keeping to the fairly strict regulations that exist, and don't find it fair that another company can offer a service without a level playing field. Presumably.

rubiquity2• 12 years ago

Yes, but I think the taxi associations only have themselves to blame for all the ceremony required to become a taxi driver. I think a lot of these regulations were created by existing taxi companies to present barriers of entry to people wanting to form new taxi companies.

snitko5• 12 years ago

If their knowledge is of any value to consumers, consumers are going to choose them over Uber. If not, then nobody should care. I can learn how to program stuff for MSDOS, doesn't mean it'd be worth anything these days.

As for regulations and licensing, it shouldn't exist in the first place as it only raises prices and prevents legitimate competition.

buro94• 12 years ago

Not just that, but black taxis have to operate under certain constraints and obligations.

Examples are: not having the right to refuse a fare within 6 miles of the centre of London (usually taken as Charing Cross). Being obliged to have vehicles that are accessible to wheelchair and disabled users. Being obliged to take a vehicle out of service if it is damaged in any way (i.e. another vehicle clips your wing mirror or dents your door, and you must take the vehicle off the road immediately and not put it back into service until fully repaired). The full background and criminal record check (one of the few exemptions from Rehabilitation of Offenders Act allowing people to hide their history). And every black cab is tracked 24/7 (revealed in a court case of alleged rape where the victim had claimed an unnamed taxi driver had done it - when locality was narrowed down and the list of taxi drivers in that area revealed they all had fares or did not meet the description the case collapsed). Then there's also the type of licence of a driver has, granting access to inner London taxi ranks vs outer London with various restrictions on both. Black cabs must take the shortest possible route (defined as time I believe), or a route you instruct. Prices are regulated and cannot be surged, etc.

Simply... the black cab taxi is not comparable to the private hire vehicle (minicab or executive car). The set of costs you are exposed to is significant, as is the set of intrusions and obligations.

I only know most of the above due to another company, Addison Lee, illegally using bus lanes and jeopardising cyclists. Only then did I learn that the bus lane privilege is part of the obligation about accessibility and shortest route.

In this specific instance I find myself thinking the LTDA are acting from a purely preservationist perspective as I think TFL are right that mere facts are a different thing from a taximeter. And if LTDA want to win this, they need to extend the narrow definition of a taximeter to any device that allows metering of a vehicle based on factors including distance travelled, location, speed, etc. As the legislation currently wouldn't treat this https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/mytaxicontrol-leading-taxime... as a taximeter.

But usually, my response is that London is better with a fully accessible and regulated taxi service requiring all fares to be accepted than without, and that there's nothing stopping Uber or anyone else accepting all of the obligations that black cabs have in return for operating on the same terms.

nakedrobot24• 12 years ago

Yes, I do know their side of the story, and I'm sorry to say that I still have the opinion written above. The Black Taxis are rather obsolete. As a consumer I don't really care that they learned The Knowledge since it won't help routing me around a traffic jam that just started a few minutes ago, to give one example!

viraptor4• 12 years ago

Does their story matter if they purposefully block the city traffic? Sure, it may matter on its own, but if they break the law and make life harder for others, that behaviour cannot be excused. They may have learned for the test, but in the time of satnavs that already have all the streets, digital broadcasts of current roadworks / street closures / accidents, and waze/google like collection of real-time data about traffic, that knowledge is simply not required.

Someone else is not keeping their service in line with the regulations and it costs them business? Sue them. Doesn't work? Well, the same rules don't apply to you apparently, so your life just got a bit easier.

I'm in favour of some regulation of the transport services. But as soon as companies try to backstab each other at the cost of people in the city - charge them for it, I'm sure there are other companies that will be happy to take over.

lmm2• 12 years ago

You're either a minicab offering pre-booked journeys or you're a taxi with a meter. If Uber is claiming they're a pre-booked journey service rather than a taxi then yes, they shouldn't be using meters and that would be illegal. If you want to change the law then by all means write to your MP or whatever, but in the meantime the law as it is should be enforced, even against fashionable companies.

ibmthrowaway2184• 12 years ago

In the absence of a pre-agreed/fixed price most minicab drivers will charge based on a combination of distance/time measured using the vehicles trip-meter/odometer and a clock. That's not much different to what the Uber app is doing in (surge multiplier excepted).

Karunamon2• 12 years ago

but in the meantime the law as it is should be enforced

This attitude puzzles me greatly. Rule of law is a principle, not a dogmatic application of The Rules Über Alles. Crap laws should be ignored.

brianlweiner• 12 years ago

Ridiculous behavior. I'm glad the black taxis seem to have their customer's well-being at heart.

"Uber, funded by Google, Goldman Sachs and others, has a stated aim of challenging legislation that is not compatible with its business model," said Mr McNamara.

"This is not some philanthropic friendly society, it's an American monster that has no qualms about breaching any and all laws in the pursuit of profit, most of which will never see a penny of tax paid in the UK."

Besides the ridiculous attempt to conflate Uber with evil bankers, it seems strange to suggest "most" of the profit will never be taxed in UK. Aren't all the UK drivers paying taxes?

corin_7• 12 years ago

Besides the ridiculous attempt to conflate Uber with evil bankers, it seems strange to suggest "most" of the profit will never be taxed in UK. Aren't all the UK drivers paying taxes?

They would, yes - but when any big company gets bad press for not paying taxes in the UK (for example Google), nobody uses the excuse "but their staff in the UK still pay UK tax", the focus is on whether the company's profits are being taxed.

k-mcgrady• 12 years ago

> "They would, yes - but when any big company gets bad press for not paying taxes in the UK (for example Google), nobody uses the excuse "but their staff in the UK still pay UK tax", the focus is on whether the company's profits are being taxed."

Because the tax paid by employees is insignificant compared to the tax the company should be paying.

kevingadd• 12 years ago

The company's profits are far in excess of the employee salaries that are taxed in most cases anyway. That's the goal. If the goal was to retain exactly $0 in profit by paying your employees generously, then yes, the taxes your employees paid would be enough.

Symmetry• 12 years ago

Uber gives 80% of the fair to the divers. I'm struggling to see how it could earn profits "far in excess" of of that 80% unless it invests whatever is left of the 20% after overhead in some really lucrative City investments.

twic6• 12 years ago

The company's profits are far in excess of the employee salaries

No. For a startup, the company's profits are zero or negative. They might have significant revenues, but they will be ploughing all their free cash flow back into growth.

rmc5• 12 years ago

They're probably talking about the Google not having it's corporate offices in the UK. The UK is a massive tax haven anyway, with weird little sub-national groups like the Channel Islands and Isle of Mann.

edit: Yes I'm aware the Channel Islands & Isle of Mann aren't part of the UK, but they are 'British' and massive tax havens, sometimes with one company director per inhabitant.

aspidistra2• 12 years ago

Neither the Channel Islands nor the Isle of Man are in the UK.

M2Ys4U• 12 years ago

The Channel Islands and the Isle of Mann are Crown Dependencies[0] and aren't part of the United Kingdom, nor are they part of the European Union (although their citizens are also British citizens and they are part of the EU customs area)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_dependencies

6d0debc071• 12 years ago

I wonder how legal that is.

'If a person, without lawful authority or excuse, in any way wilfully obstructs the free passage along a highway he is guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding [F1 level 3 on the standard scale].'

- Highways Act 1980 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/66/part/IX/crosshea...

crazypyro• 12 years ago

This was my thought. Purposely blocking traffic is illegal and I hope everyone of these taxi drivers get fines. This is like a child throwing a fit when they don't get their way...

oneeyedpigeon3• 12 years ago

How easy would that be to prove? At what point does a group of vehicles that happen to be driving down the same piece of road turn into a 'wilful obstruction'?

icebraining• 12 years ago

When they announce it on the BBC beforehand?

corin_7• 12 years ago

There are ways to hold a protest/demonstration/march legally [1], though I've no idea a.) whether what they plan would fit what's allowed on that front b.) whether they have informed police etc.

Could well be they're going down the "prove we're not just normal congestion" road.

Edit: forgot the link. [1] https://www.gov.uk/protests-and-marches-letting-the-police-k...

ibmthrowaway2184• 12 years ago

The right to protest is also enshrined in UK law (within a huge number of constraints).

Other (one-off or infrequent) protests such as Critical Mass certainly obstruct free passage along the highway, but they are tolerated.

twic6• 12 years ago

Critical Mass isn't a protest, it's a procession, and it's not tolerated, it's operating perfectly within the rights of its participants: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/j...

rmc5• 12 years ago

There has been many go-slow protests before in the past. In effect, the police will not charge anyone with this.

raldi2• 12 years ago

Note that the rank-and-file taxi drivers aren't complaining; they'll all get a chance to become Uber drivers. It's the incumbent taxi organization that's upset, because it's about to become a lot less powerful.

stuaxo4• 12 years ago

And we can all get a chance to swap our jobs for zero hours contracts, what a wonderful world.

raldi2• 12 years ago

Taxi drivers' pre-Uber work arrangements are even worse; by and large they seem to love switching from working for a taxi company to working as an Uber driver. For example:

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2014/01/15/with-ubers-comes-stru...

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2014/01/16/san-francisco-ca...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/12/12/how-lyft-...

In fact, for all the articles about taxi companies protesting before Uber comes to town, have you ever seen one about drivers complaining after?

marksbrown• 12 years ago

They also brought Southwark (near London Bridge, London) to a complete standstill on Tuesday because TfL (Transport for London) is not ensuring enough well placed taxi ranks. The Shard for instance has a space for a single taxi.

Frankly this new protest and the former reek of an unwillingness to change. Given the monopoly black cabs generally possess, it's not they're ever going to be short of customers.

sheberight• 12 years ago

Punter: traffic is bad today eh?

Cabbie: me mates are making a point about Uber

Punter: Uber? What's that? <tap-tap-tap> Cool! Let me out here.

Cabbie: tom tit! :-(

fidotron• 12 years ago

If you think protectionism about Uber is bad just wait for self driving cabs and trucks. This kind of thing is going to get a lot bigger.

tragic4• 12 years ago

Well, if the end result is I can travel a mile in a London cab without selling a kidney, I can't say I'm too worried about Uber coming in.

JetSpiegel2• 12 years ago

If you want to travel a mile, you can just walk.

MRSallee2• 12 years ago

Rains a lot in London.

tragic4• 12 years ago

Well, exactly. If I want to travel a distance that could be usefully traversed in a cab, then it's both kidneys and half a pound of bone-marrow.

Also, I only ever get taxis when I'm in a state of refreshment sufficiently advanced that walking becomes unwise.

casca• 12 years ago

The Black Cabs in London have a long-standing monopoly on picking people up on the street and providing a metered journey. This is mandated by law. To become a black cab (not always black in colour) driver, it is necessary to take an advanced test called The Knowledge where you are expected to know every London street and landmark along with best routes based on random street closures. It takes about 3 years to study for The Knowledge and there is evidence[1] that they have increased brain size as a result of memorizing all that information.

The other option for people wanting a car journey is the "mini-cab" which can be booked to collect from any specific location but must offer a fare in advance of the journey. In order to transport people for money, mini-cab drivers are licensed and have a background check done.

Uber drivers in London must have the mini-cab license so this is a question around the black cab monopoly. As with any government-provided monopoly, the incumbents are keen to maintain the status quo while the newcomers are fighting for change. Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers.

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/677048.stm

oneeyedpigeon3• 12 years ago

To put that into context, there are 25,000 streets covered by The Knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxicabs_of_the_United_Kingdom#...

gadders3• 12 years ago

I had a neighbour that was doing the knowledge. We used to hear him practise in the back garden with his wife. Hearing her shout random routes at him like "Buckingham Palace to Bank Tube" and him spouting one road name after another was pretty amazing.

If you're ever in London and you see a guy (or girl) on a bashed up moped with a clipboard strapped to the handlebars, they are learning their routes for The Knowledge.

return0• 12 years ago

But in 2014, there should be no need to make people memorize those thing to the risk of their heads exploding. Maybe if the Black Cabs had used their network to create an AI-powered optimal route-finding system, they wouldn't be afraid of competition.

gadders3• 12 years ago

Ha. I'd be interested to see anyone manage that.

On top of this, in central London it's pretty built up so SatNav doesn't always work in the canyons between buildings.

tomp• 12 years ago

For the purpose of my and other people's safety, I don't want my taxi driver to be constantly looking at the phone at the busiest junctions, neither do I want to explain to them how to spell a given street name so that they can type it in their phone in the middle of a busy street during the rush hour.

Maybe in 2024.

lclarkmichalek• 12 years ago

Having taken a non black cab yesterday which involved the driver reprogramming the sat-nav, whilst talking on his Bluetooth and handing my friend a business card, I'm OK with relying on human knowledge once in a while.

jgrahamc• 12 years ago

One of the key benefits of The Knowledge is that I can jump in a black cab in London and say "Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons" and have a driver who can instantly decide which way to go...

1. Without asking for any clarification

2. Without typing a bunch of stuff into a GPS device

3. And with knowledge of time/space specific optimizations

Yes, black cabs are not cheap. You are getting a very specific service for that money.

prof_hobart3• 12 years ago

What if you don't want to pay for that specific service? I got a taxi home (not in London) last week and the taxi driver used his sat nav to route me home. It didn't bother me in the slightest.

Pretty much all I ask for in a taxi is get me from where I am to where I want to go, as quickly, cheaply and safely as possible. I'm not against people being licenced (that comes into the "safely" bit of my requirements), but if they can achieve the "quickly" bit just as easily with a free app on their smartphone as they could with 3 years worth of studying, allowing them to provide the service more cheaply, then I'm all for it.

Dylan168074• 12 years ago

You are getting a very specific service

So are you in favor of that very specific service being a monopoly or not?

zimpenfish2• 12 years ago

As a singular anecdotal counterpoint, I've yet to get in a cab and say e.g. "Greenwich" or "Blackheath" and have those three points happen. I've had worse though - I've got a cab from Lewisham Station to Maze Hill and had to direct them most of the way ("left, right up the hill, turn right, turn left, stop").

alistairSH• 12 years ago

Meh. My last black cab experience was supposed to take me from Paddington Station to the Marriott Marble Arch. The cab dropped me at Marriott Park Lane and sped off before I realized he had left me at the wrong hotel.

I'm convinced he did this on purpose. It was rush hour, there was a bomb scare nearby, and I assume he didn't want to sit in traffic. Of course, if he had just explained that to me, I would have been happy to walk the remaining few blocks. Instead, I was just left at the wrong location and a bit confused.

So much for "The Knowledge".

hippich• 12 years ago

And that is great, but some price-conscious customers might be ok with driver entering location into gps and spending extra 15 minutes in traffic in exchange for lower price. Just give a chose to customers, not outright ban uber.

buro94• 12 years ago

Any advances that Uber makes will benefit all mini-cab companies and most importantly, passengers.

Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc).

The monopoly and some privileges (bus lane access, pick up fares anywhere) is granted in exchange for a lot of obligations including accepting every fare in the centre of London even at a loss (of time spent against the profit of a fare), for fixed prices, and without excluding anyone of any ability.

If Uber wish to gain the advantages that black cabs have, then they are free to accept the responsibilities and obligations that come with it. Which will of course mean changing their whole fleet to fully accessible vehicles and not allowing any driver to refuse a fare.

msy• 12 years ago

Black cabs have no obligation to pick up fares and will regularly refuse to take trips that they feel are inconvenient or they think will likely result in a return journey without a fare, even after you're in the cab. Want to go south and it's near the end of the driver's shift and he lives north? Back to waiting for you.

This is in comparison to the NYC system where once you're in the cab, they're obligated to take you where you want to go.

pmorici• 12 years ago

"without excluding anyone of any ability."

It's all well and good that it is written that way on paper but do they actually follow that in practice? Is there any reason to believe an Uber driver wouldn't make every effort to accommodate a passenger needing some extra assistance?

paganel• 12 years ago

Except for all of the disabled ones, the wheelchair users, the ones who only wish to travel a very short distance and are unable to do so alone (the pregnant, mothers with pushchairs, the extremely inebriated, elderly, injured, etc).

I live in an Eastern-European capital city where cab-fares are more or less completely deregulated. If what you describe were to happen after you'd just ordered a taxi (either from the street, through a phone-call or through a smart-phone app), then all you have to do is for you to call back the taxi-driver's parent company and he will get at least a 2-hour suspension, meaning that he won't be able to pick any phone or tablet orders. If a second, similar complaint arrives about the same driver in a short period of time then his contract is terminated and he's free to go and work for another company.

And yes, it does happen from time to time for me to try a pick a taxi on the street corner and receive an evasive answer, and I'm usually too lazy to call and complain, but the beauty of a free-market is that in all such cases I was able to find a taxi-driver willing to take my money from the same street corner.

Shivetya• 12 years ago

There is no reason why someone cannot come up with a service to cater to the needs of the disabled. Hence, there is no reason to grant monopoly status just because you agree too.

Uber should not have too. Now I can see granting some exceptions to companies that agree to do so, bus lanes and extra time idling.

We can simply come up with more and more burdens until competition is impossible, its not hard. Everyone can come up with a reason for their need. I do not not discount the needs of the handicap but they are used more for preventing business than facilitating new ones and usually not by those who are actually handicapped

stuki• 12 years ago

Why would the 99% of people who are able to exit and enter a regular car, benefit from being carted around in a "fully accessible vehicle?"

What's wrong with simply providing a transportation allowance, or means tested reimbursements, to those few who may need it, and set it high enough that it becomes profitable for a reasonable fraction of car for hire drivers to equip their car to deal with them?

calpaterson• 12 years ago

For anyone interested a documentary of the Knowledge test from the 1990s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvFKh_3evC8

The documentary paints an interesting picture

hobolobo2• 12 years ago

The impression is that Uber are somehow freeing customers from unscrupulous and gouging taxi drivers. Taxi customers aren't being freed, they're simply under new management.

barnabee3• 12 years ago

New management gave us a 50% price cut and better customer service. I'll take it.

LanceH• 12 years ago

They're obviously getting something out of it or they wouldn't be customers of the new service.

hobolobo2• 12 years ago

Just because they're getting something out of it doesn't mean it's a better deal all round. Amazon saves individuals money but that doesn't ameliorate the externalities that Amazon's business model create.

switch007• 12 years ago

I've used Climate Cars a few times and they're great. Mostly on time, their drivers are courteous and well-dressed, and they have a fleet of nice cars (I've mainly been in Prius and hybrid E-class cars).

Every time I get in a black cab, I wish I had booked with them. Most mini-cab firms are atrocious - staff are rude and they have no idea where they're going.

There's already good competition, but if there's more coming then I'm all for it. Black cabs have a bad reputation.

(Edit: no, I don't work for them or have any affiliation.)

bananas5• 12 years ago

Screw the black cabs.

I didn't realise what a rip off they are until I started driving around the city myself regularly with Google Maps which to be honest with traffic aware routing destroys "the knowledge" instantly. Black cab drivers know how to make cash, not the most efficient journeys in time and money. That meter hurts you badly.

So they'll cause some chaos; good for them but it'll raise more awareness on the issue and hang them faster.

More competition is required in this sector for the passengers.

stuaxo4• 12 years ago

Really ? It's not too expensive. And it seems the workers get a much better deal than with Addisson Lee.

I make a point to use minicab firms if I'm not using a black cab, having spoken to a couple of drivers about the working conditions under Addilee.

bananas5• 12 years ago

£19 each way from Waterloo to Barts. That's expensive.

robryan2• 12 years ago

Fair competition is great. It isn't a level playing field though if Uber can do everything a Taxi can without the extra obligations that add to overheads.

stuaxo4• 12 years ago

So - >> TfL told the association last month that it believed Uber's vehicles were not strictly "equipped" with taximeters since there was not "some sort of connection between the device and the vehicle".

Instead there is a device used for calculating how far it has gone, e.g. "metering"... this is a bollocks distinction.

pjc50• 12 years ago

It's correct, though; it's not attached to the drivetrain of the vehicle. Ruling that any GPS device capable of tracking distance constituted a "taximeter" and was therefore banned from private cars would be an unworkable disaster.

(Hmm, I wonder how Uber's metering copes with the Blackwall tunnel and the Woolwich ferry. My GPS directed me over the ferry once, resulting in a huge delay. Note that on the ferry a GPS would count as "moving" but a taximeter "stationary".)

calinet6• 12 years ago

You can't block progress.

aspidistra2• 12 years ago

Two other Black Cab app startups:

Get Taxi http://gettaxi.co.uk/

Hailo https://www.hailocab.com/london

I believe these have faced some resistance in some cities even with a strategy of working with licensed taxi operators.

jcampbell1• 12 years ago

I can't imagine a scenario where this doesn't backfire. This is going to put Uber on the front page of every local London newspaper for a week. At most the black cabs will force uber to make a minor programming change to the app, and the most likely outcome is a massive expansion of Uber in London. I imagine the folks at Uber HQ are giddy right now.

btbuildem• 12 years ago

And you can laugh at the havoc, for the entire duration of your bike ride.

London black taxis plan congestion chaos to block Uber

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