Spouses of Some H-1B Visa Holders to Be Allowed to Work

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/us/politics/us-plan-aims-to-draw-immigrants-with-technology-skills.html

by goshx • 12 years ago

97 112 12 years ago

tnb234• 12 years ago

As a married guy in the process of getting my H-1B visa I have to say this is a relief. It's a first step towards a more open immigration policy [1]. [1] http://www.iamimmigration.org/index.html#/get-facts/

toomuchtodo• 12 years ago

As a US citizen, I'm all for this. Why would we ever prevent the spouse of someone with an H-1B from working?

dominotw3• 12 years ago

Given the long wait times for Green Cards. Wouldn't that effectively double the h1b quota ?

H1B's have to go though long process of LCA's, ads in the newpapers, notices etc before their visa is approved. Would H4's have to go though this also? If not I can see this being abused by offshoring companies as loophole in the system.

I don't see how this is 'first step' towards a better immigration policy. Current H1B system is not used in the way it is intended for the most part. Its modern day serfdom used to attract desperate educated people from poor countries. Why not give them green cards and let them actually take advantage of american system and create jobs instead of treating them like 2nd class citizens with no rights, no voice, no dreams.

levosmetalo• 12 years ago

Then look at it in details. I didn't read the article, but in the submission title there is one suspicious word "some", which could mean anything from "almost everyone" to "almost noone" would be allowed.

a8da6b0c91d5• 12 years ago

America does not need a more open immigration policy. America needs an immediate full immigration moratorium, lasting at least five years, while we set about fixing the system. http://vdare.com/articles/the-economic-case-for-an-immigrati...

misnome• 12 years ago

Yeah, Isolationism and Xenophobia are always the best of all possible solutions!

bruceb3• 12 years ago

I would say that immigration is complex. Also there are clear differences in what different types of immigrants bring to the US. Clearly immigration helps some and hurts some. For some low wage workers clearly bringing in more low skilled and semi skilled works does hurt them. That being said grabbing the cream of the crop from around the world is mostly good for the US.

Roboprog2• 12 years ago

But the owners of the "cattle pen" seem to have different ideas than the residents.

Go on back to consuming, now.

GFK_of_xmaspast2• 12 years ago

Personally I think the US should be bringing in millions more people per year and making citizenship easy to obtain.

ChrisGaudreau• 12 years ago

With the boomer swell and the possibility of prolonged stagnation, I don't see why you'd want to prevent skilled and innovative people from entering your country.

logfromblammo4• 12 years ago

I disagree with all the opposition that I can muster. America needs to get its head out of its own ass, abandon police state fascism, and suck the brains out of the rest of the world by offering principled people the priceless treasures of liberty and self-determination.

The one qualification for immigration should be this: will the country be better with this person in it? Does the person have a net positive value to society?

Thanks to technological progress, that is not a difficult bar to pass. The problem is entirely with American politicians that use immigration as a wedge issue. They blame immigration for any weaknesses in the economy, when in reality, they are the ones sucking value out of the economy, pocketing some, and burning the rest on a pyre.

People who come to your town wanting to work for their living are not your enemy. They are the ones multiplying your trade opportunities and business potential. No one is taking your job. Those jobs belong to the company. If you want to own a job, you have to own your own business. And if you can't do that, it is the people setting up tollbooths and roadblocks between you and business ownership that are ultimately at fault. Look hard at them. They are not immigrants.

jdcryans3• 12 years ago

As whitenoise mentions below, it's only if your I-140 has been approved or your H1B has been extended that your spouse can work.

Even if you are getting your H1B this October, and assuming that you could qualify for EB-2 in ROW and that your company starts the green card process the day you start working (more likely it's gonna take 6 months to a year), your wife still won't be able to work for another 2 years. Just getting the PERM these days can easily take a year.

Also IANAL.

jadc3• 12 years ago

Indeed. Sounds like it would take before your spouse could be eligible to work but it does seem to be an improvement over the current situation especially for citizens of countries with long backlogs in the permanent residency process (India, China, etc...) where getting the green card can take 10 years or sometimes more.

mnglkhn22• 12 years ago

The only thing now is to ask your company to sponsor your green card as soon as you can. They might want to postpone it for a few good years but it is up to you to negotiate.

Velox• 12 years ago

Anyone want to explain what this is? It's a paywall and I'm not american so there is no way I'm paying for a subscription to it.

dalore• 12 years ago

Spouses of people who are working in America on a H1-B visa (the most common visa that tech people work on) are now allowed to work themselves.

objclxt• 12 years ago

Not quite. Spouses of people who are working in America on a H1-B visa and have applied for a green card or extended their visa are allowed to work themselves. That is a much smaller pool than people on H-1B visas.

whitenoise• 12 years ago

The DHS press release[1] has more details. Link to the proposed rule on reginfo.gov[2].

In short, this rule allows spouses of H1B holders to work, provided the H1B holder has an approved I-140 or has their H1B extended beyond 6 year limit under AC21. Notice that this rule is very specific and does not cover all H1B holders.

[1]http://www.dhs.gov/news/2014/05/06/dhs-announces-proposals-a... [2]http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20131...

EDIT: Grammer

dominotw3• 12 years ago

Notice that this rule is very specific and does not cover all H1B holders.

Lot of people seem to miss this important point.

mike-cardwell2• 12 years ago

If you're a Firefox user, install RefControl, and then spoof the referer for any request to this website as "http://www.google.com/". This gets around the paywall; I just tried it. This works with most paywalls.

On the other hand, I don't think it should be permitted to post articles here that are behind a paywall. That's just my opinion though.

andylei• 12 years ago

or you can just type the headline into google

vijayr• 12 years ago

Paywall :(

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/news-wire/2014/...

alexhektor• 12 years ago

google the headline. WSJ paywall has been discussed here as well for further information.

hippich3• 12 years ago

if using Google Chrome, prepend link with "cache:" and here you go. But you are right - there are other news sources with this information.

lmg6433• 12 years ago

It sounds perverse to say this, but the first thought I have is all the marriages that will be specifically arranged to take advantage of this. Seems like a clever loophole to increase the number of visas, while casting it as a benevolent change that makes it easier to retain talent.

I'm not a big fan of letting employers make immigration decisions. There's too much of an incentive to try to get low cost labor, which subsidizes stupid business practices. Sure, employers could invest in automation and smarter operating procedures, or we can just plug the hole as cheaply as possible.

H1Bs are unlikely to be big entrepreneurial catalysts because they are effectively tied to their employer and in a tricky legal framework. Honestly - I thought that was the whole point of the visa. And not to too much of a snob here, but the three immigrants mentioned in the Fortune 500 were all graduates of elite american universities (Andy Grove - Berkeley, Jerry Yang, Sergey - Stanford), which proves mostly nothing about the visa program.

I think a much better policy for America is to allow the top 50-100 universities by US News to determine who is qualified to enter. those measures are not perfect, but it is rate-limited by the size of their degree programs and they have an incentive to keep the quality of admitted applicants high.

JoeAltmaier• 12 years ago

How about letting people decide for themselves? Not corporations, not universities. If people get married and get jobs, success! What other measure is needed?

shas34• 12 years ago

In the current H1B system, it doesn't matter if the applicant is from an elite US university. If you have to work in the US, and if you are not a permanent resident or US citizen, you go through, for the most part, the exact same H1B system as everyone else.

The only difference is, if you have a masters or higher degree, your H1B visa processing is done through a separate quota.

In today's system, unless you are a PhD with many publications in prestigious conferences/journals, etc., straight out of college (i.e., BS or MS), permanent residency is a long and highly bureaucratic process for most applicants. So essentially, your spouse cannot work till you get a green card. Here is an interesting story about an early Google employee highlighting this problem: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/business/12immig.html?page...

Also, in 2014, people are not as desperate to live and work in the US as you think, to arrange marriages for this sole purpose. Further, this rule-change applies to that subset of H1B workers who are on track to get green cards.

Employment-based green cards could take even 10 years to be processed because of purely administrative and bureaucratic delays.

Besides, the H1B workers affected by this rule are usually highly skilled and are likely to have similar quality of life if they lived and worked in their home country. When you take this into account, the loophole-theory that you talk about jumps into the realm of paranoid conspiracy theory.

(IANAL)

lmg6433• 12 years ago

I like the early Google employee example - of course, let's cherry pick the best-of-the-best, and just assume everyone in the sample is of that caliber.

I am fine with citizenship or automatic green cards for accepted Harvard students. That's a pretty prestigious designation and very hard to obtain. Harvard does not give out slots lightly. However, there are a lot of degree granting institutions in the US with lower standards, such that I don't think all universities should have that privilege.

I have worked with dozens of H1B employees. It's really stupid to ask - since they are here working - but it occasionally is discussed whether they would consider going home. I think the answer is usually - maybe - when I'm ready to retire.

The opportunities here are still "on average" better - and it's not just "the economy" - infrastructure, rule of law, space-to-people ratio, etc.

ifonlynoelse• 12 years ago

This. I am from India. Graduated with degree in engineering from one of the top universities. Worked in US for last 4 years of so. Now enrolled for one of the top MBA program but I am thinking of leaving US after MBA rather than applying for green card. There is so much wait for people from India. Agreed that number of applicants are very large but then 10 years is way too much to be tied to one employer. Time value of money surpasses benefit that would green card/citizenship benefit after 10 yrs. Also, not to forget in recent years there are increasing number of problems happening in US in every aspect, high tax rates, so it may or may not worth the deal. Again this is my opinion only.

psuter• 12 years ago

I love how these "proposals to attract and retain highly skilled immigrants" do not cover O-1 holders, the "individuals with extraordinary ability or achievement".

(I'm guessing because O-1 visas are not dual-intent.)

In any case, certainly a step in the right direction.

dublinben• 12 years ago

I don't think the government wants to advertise how much easier O-1 visas can be obtained by celebrities and models, than other visas can be obtained by scientists and engineers.

lachyg• 12 years ago

Hm? O-1 is dual intent.

Source:

8 C.F.R. 214.2(o) (13) “Effect of approval of a permanent labor certification or filing of a preference petition on O classification. The approval of a permanent labor certification or the filing of a preference petition for an alien shall not be a basis for denying an O–1 petition, a request to extend such a petition, or the alien's application for admission, change of status, or extension of stay. The alien may legitimately come to the United States for a temporary period as an O–1 nonimmigrant and depart voluntarily at the end of his or her authorized stay and, at the same time, lawfully seek to become a permanent resident of the United States.”

technotony• 12 years ago

Actually they do. The last paragraph says that they are making EB1 visas (which is the green card version of the O1) easier to get: Another revision announced Tuesday will ease requirements for applicants of an EB-1 work visa, which is issued to researchers and professors with extraordinary ability. To qualify, applicants for the visas currently must submit awards, scholarly articles and a host of evidence to prove their outstanding recognition in and contribution to a particular field. The new rule will allow applicants to present comparable evidence that is acceptable, the official said.

For entrepreneurs this is the most exciting development in these proposals as it should make the path to getting a green card easier.

makmanalp• 12 years ago

It's good news that change is happening. The bad news is that it's only after 6 years of residence: http://lofgren.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID...

goshx2• 12 years ago

Not only those [1]:

"Eligible individuals would include H-4 dependent spouses of principal H-1B workers who:

Are the beneficiaries of an approved Form I-140, Immigrant Petition for Alien Worker; or Have been granted an extension of their authorized period of stay in the United States under the American Competitiveness in the Twenty-first Century Act of 2000 (AC21) as amended by the 21st Century Department of Justice Appropriations Authorization Act. AC21 permits H-1B workers seeking lawful permanent residence to work and remain in the United States beyond the six-year limit."

[1] http://www.dhs.gov/news/2014/05/06/dhs-announces-proposals-a...

tsenkov• 12 years ago

I don't get it... In the original article it says:

"Spouses of H-1B visa holders being sponsored for a green card by their employers will be allowed to work in the U.S."

If you are "being" sponsored, this means you are "in the process", not after you got the green card. As much as I know, a company can sponsor H1-B holders right from the start of their contract (although, probably not all of them do so) for getting a green card.

Either this statement from the original post is wrong, OR the interpretation in the house.gov is wrong, OR I'm missing something (probably & most-likely).

Does anyone have a clear answer?

hpagey2• 12 years ago

Technically speaking H1b process and green card are two separate things. A company can sponsor for green card without sponsoring H1b. But, this is how the process typically works,

Step 1) Company sponsors H1b Step 2) Employee works at the company for say like a year Step 3) Company starts the green card process and files labor. Step 4) Labor is approved and employee receives a priority date. Step 5) Company applies for i-140 . Step 6) i-140 is approved and priority date is now set. Step 7) Employee keeps on renewing H1b until priority date becomes current. Step 8) When priority date becomes current, employee along with its dependents can apply for i-485 Adjustment of status. Step 9) Employee and its dependents received EAD cards and Advance payroll ( for traveling purpose. Step 10) USCIS starts processing i-485 applications (each dependent gets its own application) and starts adjucating them. Step 11) USCIS asks for Visa number once adjucation is done. Each dependent needs its own visa number. Step 12) If visa number is available when its requested green card is issue, else application remains pending until visa numbers become available.

Now, the above mentioned rule will allow spouses to obtain work authorization from Step 6. Previously, they had to wait till Step 8 to obtain it.

logfromblammo4• 12 years ago

I don't understand the overt, superficial purpose of H-1B visas. If you have a company that needs one, and a foreigner who qualifies for it, why would it not be better for the public in every possible circumstance to just grant that foreign person an unconditional work visa and automatically enroll them for consideration for permanent residency?

And then I put my foil hat on, and the voices tell me that the H-1B program must not be for the benefit of the public, and that both the American workers and the foreigners with visas are being exploited for the benefit of the corporate sponsors.

The only benefit I see here to essentially doubling the number of available guest workers under H-1B is that the affected spouses are free to change employers and to quit from unsuitable employment without being deported. That makes them better off than the person that actually has the sponsorship!

refurb4• 12 years ago

The reason for the temporary nature of H1-Bs is that it's an attempt to provide a responsive immigration policy. Just because you can't find a US citizen to fill a role now, doesn't mean that 10 years from now you won't be.

If 10 years from now a pool of qualified US workers becomes available, the H1-B approval would need to be repeated, the labor certification would fail and the immigrant would not be allowed to fill the role.

I'm certainly not saying it's the best way to handle it, but that's the logic behind the current rules.

logfromblammo4• 12 years ago

If you make the worker a citizen, you can be absolutely certain that a citizen can fill the role, both now and ten years in the future.

Otherwise, you are finding a different person to fill the role in ten years, and that person will be competing with someone in a foreign country that has 10 more years of experience.

dang• 12 years ago

We changed the url from [1] since the paywall is a notch lower.

1. http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230341710...

datacog4• 12 years ago

This proposal is ridiculous! They are offering the possibility to work after 6 years of H1B or in early phases of Green card process.

- Their intent doesnt seem to be providing Spouses with opportunity to work, but instead prevent dropouts of those people who get fed up of the process and either go back home or apply for Canada PR. I know few such people myself

- Important point: During the 4-6 years when the spouse cannot legally work, either they have given up on their career or have already signed up for a graduate program in order to get an F1. It is basically useless to offer jobs to someone after 6 years of being jobless and they have very very less competitive advantage unless they have a made a productive use of time by doing stuff such as freelancing and pro-bono work.

- Dependents of L1 visa (L2) are allowed to work on EAD, I dont understand why it is so complex for H4's.

- Another effect of this would also mean that the govt might not consider increasing the CAP for H1B next year, but rather try to retain the exising H1B's and try to get their green card done.

So, although this change seems optimistic, it isnt that helpful (I myself was very excited after I first saw this)

tn133• 12 years ago

People with L1 can not change their jobs. They also supposed to be transferred employees and not temporary workers.

jdcryans3• 12 years ago

I don't think it's ridiculous, and the current 97k H4s that will now be able to work are probably pretty happy about it [1].

Regarding the L2s being able to get their EADs but not the H4s, keep in mind that the latter are not the only ones in this situation, it's the same thing with TN/TD. And then you have the E-3 spouses (Australia) who _can_ get their EADs[2] :)

I think that the problem is that each visa/work status was created separately, so it's more than just a case of "since it works for this one, why doesn't it work for this other one". I agree with you that this current situation is ridiculous but I'm happy that they start addressing those issues, even if piece by piece.

1. http://recode.net/2014/05/06/congrats-h-1b-spouses-you-can-g... 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-3_visa

datacog4• 12 years ago

I'm happy too that they have atleast started addressing this. But atleast no immediate benefit for someone who are just into their H1.

cesarbs4• 12 years ago

or apply for Canada PR

Just curious, can someone apply for permanent residency in Canada without being there in the first place? If that's how it works I'll definitely consider that option.

unless they have a made a productive use of time by doing stuff such as freelancing

H-4s cannot freelance. My wife is on H-4 and we felt quite disgruntled when our immigration attorney told us that. Basically, she can only do volunteer work. She cannot have income from any kind of work.

e15ctr0n• 12 years ago

Permanent residency in Canada is points-based and not petition-based like the US. You should definitely consider it.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp

datacog4• 12 years ago

Yes, freelancing might not be exactly legal. Lot of people still do it.

IANAL, but I think it is legal to work for a foreign company from US, as long as the company is in no way associated or affiliated to US. Someone please correct me if wrong.

ulfw• 12 years ago

6 years without a job and let's not forget - with zero US work experience. Good luck getting taken seriously when you're applying for anything more than a low level job at that point.

harichinnan2• 12 years ago

USCIS doesn't offer jobs. Just a work permit. They will interview for jobs like everyone else and have a chance of getting employed. It's just that instead of making it illegal, they are now issuing permits.

tn133• 12 years ago

The more I read about H1B laws more I find it ridiculous. US immigration laws are the best example of how policy making runs based on fabricated fears rather than pragmatism.

If a spouse is in Us for 6 years on H4, she is essentially sitting ducks all those years not doing anything. No one will employ such a person. You cant even run a blog and earn through ad-sense on H4. Neither can you work remotely for a foreign company.

It is beyond me why such law exists in first place. People from Mexico can jump over the fence come to US and work while the president goes out of his way to ensure that these people can get US taxpayer's money but my wife who is engineering graduate with over 8 years of experience working for American companies in India can not work in US because it takes away jobs of American people!

chimeracoder• 12 years ago

It is beyond me why such law exists in first place. People from Mexico can jump over the fence come to US and work while the president goes out of his way to ensure that these people can get US taxpayer's money but my wife who is engineering graduate with over 8 years of experience working for American companies in India can not work in US because it takes away jobs of American people!

You just answered your own question. The people "jumping the fence" (as you put it) are often taking low-paying (even below minimum wage) jobs that US citizens don't want, so it's less problematic politically[0].

On the other hand, there are a lot of citizens who would love whatever job your wife would get with 8 years of engineering experience, so it's more politically challenging to give that job to a non-citizen, even if she is undeniably qualified for it.

[0] In fact, some industries rely on illegal immigrants and/or illegal migrant workers as sources of labor below minimum wage (see: agriculture[1]), so they have an incentive to enable this practice (or at least turn a blind eye), since they can't rely on the legal resources to provide them labor at that price.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness_%282003_book%29 (Don't be fooled by the title - the chapter I'm referring to is about production of strawberries).

tn133• 12 years ago

I agree that people generally do not understand the economic principles behind all this and rather fall prey to the absurd arguments such as "there are fixed number of jobs" to compete for or "some jobs Americans are not willing to do always".

diogenescynic2• 12 years ago

I've got to add my experience to this:

The problem with H-1Bs is the vast majority of them are abusing the system. I've seen it firsthand working at one of the top four global immigration law firms. Most H-1Bs are gaming the system. They lie about their title, experience, and work location to get a lower prevailing wage. For example, they say they are going to work in Iowa and then work in Boston and on and on. Most (over 80%) of the H-1s go to outsourcing companies like Cognizant, Tata (TCS), Infosys, Symphony etc. Their entire business model is based on the fact that it will be cheaper to obtain and H-1 than to hire locally. This is fundamentally fucked up. Most H-1s are coming from diploma mills or have no education at all and use 'experience evaluations' which are another rubber stamp service. It's not truly high-skilled labor. If they were high-skilled they'd just apply as an O-1 applicant. H-1s are effectively apprentice engineers. They usually do not have any specialization--so why are they needed? To keep wages flat. It's a corporate handout. Look at how STEM salaries have stagnated: http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...

But really, H-1s aren't nearly as bad as the L-1s. L-1s have no prevailing wage and no education requirements. Fortune500s bring over L-1s and keep them on foreign payroll (for up to 6 years) and then can send them abroad for a year and bring them back for another 6. I've seen L-1s coming to work for major oil companies where the applicant has 20 years of experience and a Master's degree--making $15,000/year.

The problem with freedom of labour and open borders is that it's usually just one way. How many Americans are going to work abroad in India? How many Canadians are going to work in China? It's feel-good rhetoric but ultimately it's just an excuse to flood richer nations with workers from poorer nations. I'd be all for this system if there was some kind of tit-for-tat program where India gets as many visas given to them as they give to us proportionally--but it will never happen. If STEM and engineers are so in demand why have their wages stagnated? Why has the average income actually dropped in Silicon Valley? There's a disconnect in what they claim is happening and what is really happening.

The other problem I see with H-1Bs is the way they connect to Green Card/Permanent Residency. Once you file your I-140, you can stay on your H-1 indefinitely. Your H-1 doesn't have to match your I-140 either, so you can be employed as something lowly like Customer Support Engineer and then file the I-140 for a "Senior Data Scientist" or whatever and then drag out the Green Card process to keep their prevailing wage down. Oh and guess what? The companies and the law firms coordinate to do this. Why? Because once the I-140 is filed the employee is locked into that company and they can hold the Green Card out as a carrot and get a loyal obedient worker. It's a sick exploitive system. It's bad for everyone but the corporate executives who are getting a bonus for meeting their budgets.

Moreover, corporations also coordinate mass-layoffs and filing for Green Cards. They will file for hundreds, sometimes thousands of Green Cards, then wait to announce the layoffs once the I-140s are filed. If they did it the reverse they wouldn't be allowed to file for the I-140s. I saw this happen monthly in the Silicon Valley.

However, I have also seen H-1Bs be used to bring over employees from companies that were acquired abroad for reallly smart people making unique products or some kind of breakthrough technology. Those are totally legitimate uses of the program. Those aren't the problems. The thing the government needs to learn is that anything that is available to companies that has a monetary reward for telling "white lies" to the government and depends on the companies "being honest" let alone understanding or agreeing with the overarching intent of the legislation -- is going to have the absolute shit abused out of it eventually.

rtpg• 12 years ago

The problem with freedom of labour and open borders is that it's usually just one way. How many Americans are going to work abroad in India? How many Canadians are going to work in China? It's feel-good rhetoric but ultimately it's just an excuse to flood richer nations with workers from poorer nations.

These low pay schemes are because of the restrictions instead of in spite of them. If we had open borders and none of this visa nonsense, why would some guy from china work under market wage when he could just as easily apply for the same jobs as everyone else in the market? A major flood of applicants might lower wages, but not nearly as much than these schemes do, because the worker is basically "paying" for his right to be in the country through lower wages.

These visa schemes are a modern-day indentured servitude, plain and simple.

harichinnan2• 12 years ago

1. Most H1B's get higher pay than the H1B application wage. This happens in consulting jobs and is to ensure that you don't have to get deported because your annual income fell short of the absolute minimum in case you took a prolonged vacation back home. And the prevailing wage is determined by DOL. Not by the employer or the lawyer. If you compare the H1B prevaling wage with your own, most of the time yours would be higher. But that doesn't mean you are getting more pay than the H1B employee. Most H1B's atleast have an engineering degree. Getting through a degree course is no lauging matter anywhere in the world. Vast majority of US employees don't have any formal education. End of the day, companies interview H1B employees just like they interview you with puzzles and white board tests and github code reviews. Nobody, not even Infosys and Wipro employees get a free ride.

2. Same case for L1. They have degrees in addition to work experience. Nobody makes 15K in US on L1. That's just a lie. I used to make 15K USD back in Chennai, India. Not many people would make the trip to US for 15K.

3. Americans don't work abroad in India. Americans work for Indian companies here in US. Every time an Indian airliner buys Boeing over Airbus and everytime a US arms manufacturer gets a deal over the Russian or European companies, the Indian companies employ Americans. It's a trade off mostly in America's favor. Indians export technology and Americans export finished goods. Consumers of raw technology always gains in this trade.

4. The problem with GC is not because the H1B's abuse it. But because US has a stupid immigration policy where they equate India or China with a billion people to say Kuwait or Vatican and give equals quotas per country. If this is fixed, the applications would get quickly processed and the wrongful applications would be denied.

5. Mass layoffs with simultaneous I-140 filings... Getting someone a Green Card would cost upwards of 15K. And they don't exactly come cheap. green Cards usually have higher wage requirements. Also I-140 holder can switch an employer after 6 months. Nothing chains them to the employer.

diogenescynic2• 12 years ago

1. An awful lot of tech workers make under $40k, even under $30k. The average H-1B salary is roughly $70,000. There's a smaller percent at the top-end that skew the average up. The vast majority of the H-1Bs I saw were making $50,000-$65,000.

I think you misunderstand the process. First, the DOL sets the prevailing wages, but the employers choose what location, title, and experience level to apply under. Check this out: http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx Play around with it and see what you find.

Now, say you're a company and you have multiple locations. You apply for the employee at the cheapest location, then pick a title that will get a lower prevailing wage, and say they are entry level when really they have 5 years of experience. So the prevailing wage determination is skewed. This is what I mean about telling a white lie. Anything that is available to companies that has a monetary reward for telling "white lies" to the government and depends on the companies "being honest" let alone understanding or agreeing with the overarching intent of the legislation -- is going to have the absolute shit abused out of it eventually.

If a Software Engineer gets a higher prevailing wage than a Software Developer (or vice versa) according to the DOL. Which title do you think the employer will pick to apply under?

2. I've seen multiple cases filed for L-1s around $15,000 and many more for around $25,000-$28,000. The L-1s get around the prevailing wage requirements by companies providing corporate housing and ammenities and meals at work. I worked on thousands of cases, so I am going to believe my sample size is more representative than your anecdotal experience.

3. This is an intellectually dishonest argument. Trading goods is not the same thing as employment. Stop trying to conflate them. And even still, following your argument Americans are still 'employing' millions in India via imported goods. It's still completely one-sided.

4. I disagree, I don't think India and China should get preferential treatment for having a larger population. That's ridiculous.

5. Again, I've seen this happen many times. The bitter truth H-1s appeal to employers because employers see them as exploitable, cheaper, and more ignorant of local labour customs and laws.

gdc2• 12 years ago

I'm shocked you can say these things having worked at a firm that obviously deals with fraud -- which I disagree with you -- is NOT the normal case.

If you're an officer of the court, aren't you obligated to report this? Or is it more likely you're not a lawyer and don't actually understand what's going on?

Disclosure -- I'm an L1-B. I'm paid higher than the prevailing wage. By far.

avemuri• 12 years ago

> The problem with freedom of labour and open borders is that it's usually just one way.

It's only a problem if you're a working class American or an Indian business. It's great if you're a working class Indian or an American business.

bsder• 12 years ago

Just give people a Green Card after 12 months on an H-1B and a bunch of these problems all go away.

This is so tiresome. All so a bunch of companies can import wage slaves to depress tech salaries.

grumpypants666• 12 years ago

"Fred Humphries, a vice president at Microsoft, one of the biggest users of H-1B visas, said they would have “a positive economic impact.”

He continued, under his breath, "Because Microsoft wouldn't have to pay prevailing wage to even more engineers".

Look - if you're outside the US you can ignore this comment but for those of us in the US, this is a screw job.

Most H-1Bs are used to import cheap - ridiculously cheap - labor and displace middle class workers. Period. There are almost always people in the US that can do the work but not at the wage that the Msoft or whomever would like to pay. The "we can't find qualified workers" bullshit is just that.

As if the collusion to suppress wages wasn't bad enough...

gdc2• 12 years ago

Of course, you can cite a credible source that Microsoft is paying H1-B's below prevailing wage?

wittgenstein• 12 years ago

I haven't witnessed a process that is more stupid and bureaucratic as the H-1B-to-permanent-residence application process. The full thing is based on farce and it makes no sense whatsoever. I still cannot conceive how going through this process can be the law.

sytelus• 12 years ago

This is the fix for one of the two fundamental issues with H1B. The second issue is that H1B is tied to employer and you can't switch employer unless receiving side agrees to do brunt work of legal "transfer". This gives employers unchecked power to exploit H1B workers. The way this happens is employer - typically a "consulting agency" - takes cut from all payments so H1B salary is just above the minimum required. This issue allowed proliferation of mom & pop shops that would literally import people from places like India and Pakistan by dozens. With cuts of size $40K per person they would rack up millions of dollars doing absolutely nothing but sponsoring H1Bs and running the shop literally in their pajamas from their home.

For the first issue of spouses not able to work, I've heard several horror stories where spouse has medical or engineering degree but is forced to sit at home doing nothing. The situation, as I recall, wasn't too bad however because such spouses eventually went on to get F1 visa for studies or H1B themselves so they can work. However path to that was extraordinarily tedious littered with lots of legal issues.

I really like UK's work permit system comparatively. It allows to work anywhere in UK once you get permit and avoids employer exploitation. It automatically grants spauces also permission to work. In addition, if you live in UK on work permit for 4 years with paying taxes then you are automatically eligible for permanent residence. As sad it is, UK has taken much more freedom oriented approach for immigrants than US for years.

Spouses of Some H-1B Visa Holders to Be Allowed to Work

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