Experiment: Eliminating Toast Sweat

http://murrayhurps.com/post/82442316389/eliminating-toast-sweat

by MurrayHurps • 12 years ago

152 76 12 years ago

Jedd5• 12 years ago

For a pseudo-scientific analysis ... it's a shame the units of measurement weren't defined up front.

(I live in one of the 190+ countries that use Celsius, but I know that 99.8% of things on the Internets are written by people from just one of those three other countries that doesn't. I'm also aware that for reasons that are a bit bewildering, everyone in those 190+ countries politely goes out of their way to make it clear that we're talking metric, because we're now used to the idea that if people don't mention units then they're probably from North America, and consequently are almost definitely using gallons (US, not UK gallons), miles (US, not UK miles), Fahrenheit and other deprecated units. We should probably stop being so considerate.)

chrismcb• 12 years ago

Based on the article talking about ambient temp being 24 I'm going to guess that not everyone in those countries goes out of their way to make it clear that they are talking about metric

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Apologies for not thinking of this, fixed now, thanks :-)

Jedd5• 12 years ago

Hope you took the comment in the whingy great southern continent spirit it was intended. ;)

I was just going to dwell upon my amazement that toast lasts 120 seconds at your place. Butter really needs to get on and be melting within 10 seconds, vegemite or marmalade within another 10, and that leaves you about 15 seconds of tolerable consumption temperature. We are not animals, after all.

FYI - when I've been too busy to pre-warm the plate, I've found a sheet of kitchen paper between plate and toast can ameliorate some of the toast sweat problem.

quotient• 12 years ago

To be fair, the author defined the units of measurement on their second mention, and from then on consistently gave the temperature in both Celsius and Fahrenheit. The fact that he did not specify what scale of measurement he meant when he wrote "10 degrees" does not merit great criticism; it is a simple omission, I would treat it as I would treat a typo...

Other than that, this is a rather cool (no pun intended) experiment. I usually just rested my toast horizontally across the toaster or placed it on a grill after toasting to avoid the dreaded toast sweat. Maybe I'll heat up my plates in the future. More importantly: the toast still cools down. Where does the toast sweat go? Where did it come from?

dfc2• 12 years ago

This is interesting, can you give some examples of unit omission? As an american I am having trouble thinking outside of my environment. I know I am guilty of temperature unit omission: "It was 10 degrees outside /The high is going to be 60 tommorow." I am having trouble coming up with others. I am having the most trouble with gallons and or miles:

I was running on fumes, it took 3 to fill my car up.

My friends new truck is super efficient for a pickup it gets 35 / 35 miles / 35 to the gallon.

I ran for 3 yesterday.

Buffalo is 120 from Syracuse.

leephillips2• 12 years ago

Apparently the problem is that you just say "three gallons" and not "three U.S. gallons". But I'm pretty sure the miles are the same. Except that there are nautical, international, statute, and probably some other miles. So stop being so inconsiderate.

rgarrett88• 12 years ago

"She's five eight"

Jedd5• 12 years ago

dfc - you're right, I think, that it's almost always ambiguous temperature references, doubtless because the 'degree' part of the unit name is shared between the three common measures.

As rgarrett88 points out, short distances are often reduced to foot and inch numbers, with the receiver left to intuit context. Sometimes people will assert they hit a hundred, or went from zero to a hundred in x seconds, and weight-lifters are likely to talk about the number they can push ... again reliant upon sender and receiver sharing the same cultural background.

My comment about 'us' being so considerate was somewhat tongue in cheek, natch, though (since I'm speaking for all the rest of us now) we'd really like it if you guys would switch over to metric at your earliest convenience. I won't say ISO / SI, as working in K is just too unwieldy :)

ftwinnovations• 12 years ago

36-24-36? Ha ha, only if she's 5 3.

-Sir Mix-a-Lot

twic2• 12 years ago

I was doing 70 on the road out of Wallingford, and the police pulled me over.

ajanuary• 12 years ago

I'm pretty sure I've heard phrases like 35 to the gallon before.

twic2• 12 years ago

Really, in scientific work like this, the temperatures should be measured in kelvin.

jordan0day• 12 years ago

A plate heated to Murray Temperature seems like it would be too hot to handle comfortably? Did you find this to be an issue?

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Excellent question, it was indeed hot to handle, but didn't burn. http://www.antiscald.com/prevention/general_info/table.php

michaelmior• 12 years ago

Perhaps "gentle warming" is a bit of an understatement then.

bradleyland• 12 years ago

Here's what I do to prevent this handling issue, but also reduce toast sweat.

1) Fold a paper towel in half, then in half again (if using the select-a-size style, use two sheets).

2) Wet the paper towel so it is wet, but not dripping.

3) Place the wet paper towel on the bottom of the microwave in the center.

4) Place your plate directly over the paper towel, with the area you will place your toast over the towel.

5) Heat for 45 seconds.

The steam from the paper towel heats the specific area where the toast will sit, but the rest of the plate remains noticeably cooler. You do have to dry the plate with a towel when doing this, but it's relatively simple. Just don't let the water drip on you; it's hot.

zdw• 12 years ago

Were tests done beyond the 53C temperature, to see if this resulted in a total elimination of toast sweat?

I realize that this may make the plate "too hot to handle", but I'd gladly eat breakfast with one hand in an oven mitt if it would result in better toast.

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Another excellent question. At this stage, I had my sweat-free toast, and wanted breakfast, so no. I've made a note for the next set of tests though, thanks.

rdmckenzie• 12 years ago

Application of research methods before breakfast? good man.

csmattryder• 12 years ago

I'd enjoy a follow-up where they test different materials against the 'keep-toast-dry' 53 degree temperature of clay plate.

Would something like neoprene/polystyrene plates (as insane as it sounds) provide a solution to slightly soggy toast at a lower temperature?

It's one thing to find an optimal temperature, but a completely other beast to find a practical solution to it!

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Fantastic idea, and one of several great suggestions I'm taking note of for a followup piece. Thanks very much!

vl5• 12 years ago

Perhaps brand (and, specifically, water content) of bread plays a big role too. With the brand of bread I use I don't experience this problem (or maybe I just eat my toasts rather quickly?).

Also, paper critically omits condition of toast prior to heating - was it stored in the fridge or in the cupboard? Was is stored in vacuum packaging or not? How old was the toast from the manufacturing date? Also toast can be weighted before and after heating, and after removal from the plate to measure loss of water content (it's my understanding that water on the plate is actually condensation, and not part of the toast, but is it indeed so?).

Murray should seriously consider establishing Murray Institute of Toasting Research and addressing these important topics in subsequent scientific publications.

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Great points, and added to the list of paths to explore for the next version.

Also hard to disagree with your suggestion as a new life path.

The global bread market is predicted to hit $170B by 2015 (GIA report), if we can capture the minds of just 1% of that market, then I'll be able to afford a better thermometer.

zalzane• 12 years ago

does the suggested temperature also eliminate toast sweat in different varieties of bread?

leephillips2• 12 years ago

I love this! I am also regularly saddened by the phenomenon of toast sweat. I looked in vain, though, for an RSS (or Atom) feed so I could follow your site, but didn't see one. Did I miss it?

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Much appreciated! Will add a link shortly, but try http://murrayhurps.com/rss

2muchcoffeeman• 12 years ago

Why not use a cooling rack? Then air can circulate under the toast, eliminating the moisture and removing the need to pre heat a plate.

misframer• 12 years ago

I just keep my toast in the toaster a bit longer.

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

What if you have two slices of toast on your plate?

SixSigma• 12 years ago

Or even a toast rack http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toast_rack

cgtyoder• 12 years ago

So - why is Toast Sweat bad? That question was never addressed.

ghshephard2• 12 years ago

Soggy toast would be the first concern.

cdcarter• 12 years ago

It's less than ideal for sandwich toast, where you want to contrast the dry and crunchy toast with your moist and chewy interiors.

kostyk• 12 years ago

Important information.

sbierwagen• 12 years ago

Infrared thermometers like the one used in this article are (typically) calibrated for an emissivity of 0.95. If you use one on a material with a lower emissivity, it'll give inaccurate readings. This can be cheaply solved by sticking a piece of electrical tape on the surface, and measuring that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

Fantastic insight. I did have trouble picking up a temperature at certain angles, but at 90 degrees it returned the highest reading, which still wasn't burning my hand so is probably not above the value registered.

Might have gotten away with it because it's stoneware of some kind, but will definitely try a tape patch next time.

tripzilch• 12 years ago

90 degrees what?

a quick and easy test whether something is below or above ~50 degrees Celsius, is whether it's immediately painful to the touch.

it's the temperature at which most of our proteins start to denature, aka the temperature at which a steak changes from "warm but raw" to "very rare", and therefore the temperature that hurts your fingers.

it's not super accurate of course, but it'll do if you just want to eyeball 53C.

agoetz• 12 years ago

Bonus: Once you have a couple of data points from the tape method, you can extrapolate the emissivity of the toast itself and calculate a correction factor for your IR gun.

jamespitts• 12 years ago

C'mon, no need to experiment. Just make a toast teepee -- stand those suckers up against each other and let them evaporate before making that sammich.

foobarian• 12 years ago

The standing up methods are inferior because the parts of the bread in contact with the (cold) plate still sweat. When the plate is hot enough there won't be any condensation at all.

retroencabulato• 12 years ago

Can't you just use an rack?

switch007• 12 years ago

Toast sweat is on par with pizza sweat. As a pizza retains its heat for much longer than toast, I usually just put it on a rack or slide a large knife underneath to prop it up.

tluyben22• 12 years ago

Your oven is not hot enough.

Jedd5• 12 years ago

This is almost definitely true, but most domestic ovens don't get hot enough (400C from memory is close to ideal). Hottest oven I've had in a 'normal' rented place went as high as 270C, and even with a pizza stone it was hard to get enough moisture out in the 8-9 minutes before the rest of it was at risk of being overcooked.

While the knife wedged under the edge works to stop it going too soggy, the other trick is to use a wooden tray or chopping board to serve on - this pulls out some of the residual moisture.

DannyBee2• 12 years ago

Today we learn about dew points?

This is no different than why you have vapor barriers in certain climates.

Without trying to sound dismissive, i was not aware there was a lot of experimentation here necessary to figure out the temperature at which the water would stop condensing on the plate again.

Still a fun article, of course :)

vl5• 12 years ago

Today we learn about dew points?

Huh, so why condensate appears? Cold air in the room is not at dew point, even if it's heated around bread and then cooled again, content of water stays the same, so what is the reason for it condensate?

simcop23872• 12 years ago

In this case the toast makes a nearly closed system below the bread next to the plate. Since the toast is cooling off and giving off some steam it will add a significant amount of moisture more than the air originally had. Once that happens the dew point will quickly reach the current room temperature. Raising the temperature of the plate above that temperature means that there is more moisture needed to do this.

mattdeboard• 12 years ago

This post is a great example of what was discussed here

http://brooklynoptimist.com/2014/04/10/hacker-school-banning...

YOU MEAN YOU HAVEN'T HEARD OF DEW POINTS??

y4mi• 12 years ago

i know of a few times that i showed surprise finding out that somebody never heard about something.

this surprise was however never about the other person, but about myself. i realized, that my worldview was so skewed about some topics, that i believed them to be almost universally accepted. the topics themselves were often unknown to people outside of my online-bubble.

DannyBee2• 12 years ago

I agree with this in theory, but you are talking about stuff that is a required part of all {4,5,6}th grade science curriculums in the US, and the equivalent in other countries.

I was not feigning surprise, I am literally surprised that this was not realized

trentlott• 12 years ago

An hour in the library is equal to six months in the lab, it's said.

But you don't get blog visits that way, you know.

makmanalp• 12 years ago

The main problem here is that the moisture in the toast has not yet completely exited. So what I do is I toast at a lower temperature (if your device allows this) and / or leave the toast in the toaster for a few minutes after it's done. You'll notice that if you put your hands on top of the toaster after it's done, water is still evaporating like crazy. Imho this works better than a cooling rack or putting the bread on its side. Then you can reheat a bit if you want to, too. Is it weird that we've all thought so much about this?

MurrayHurps10• 12 years ago

It's weird that we're thinking about anything, if you think about it enough.

And your thought raises the question: how much moisture do you actually want in your toast? Is zero acceptable?

pacmon• 12 years ago

I would think zero is not good, but of course it's subjective. I like my toast crispy, but soft enough that it's not like a crouton.

riffraff• 12 years ago

I think zero moisture would be this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwieback

which while great with butter & jam, does not qualify as a toast anymore :)

Moru2• 12 years ago

In sweden we have to toast all our bread that we buy in normal stores because the efficiency of the industry-bakeries does not allow enough time for the bread in the oven so they still smell for yeast... I hate swedish bread. No wonder it's so popular to bake your own bread here the last few years.

sc68cal• 12 years ago

As an amateur bread baker, I would love to know more about why industry bakeries do this. Do you have any links?

eik3_de• 12 years ago

I have never had problems with toast sweat: Just stand the two slices upright on the plate so that they look like a T from above. It's very easy and stable and after a minute the steam is out so that they won't sweat anymore.

I never measured it, but I had the feeling that the A form (looking from the side) slightly interferes with the rising steam.

How do you do it?

k__• 12 years ago

I just don't take it out of the toaster when it comes up, I wait about a minute.

In the past I leaned it (like the A-form you mentioned) against some other stuff, like the cup or something.

mattmaroon• 12 years ago

Toast sweat killed my uncle. I'm glad someone is finally fighting back.

seanhandley• 12 years ago

Or you could put a piece of kitchen towel on the plate.

TheCowboy• 12 years ago

Then you have a piece of toast on a wet towel. Along with suggestions that suggest a cooling rack (I'm not a fan of cold toast), I think this misses the mark.

"Never serve hot food on a cold plate." -Ramsay

It seems obvious enough when you get in the habit and you wonder why you never started warming your plates to begin with.

It's usually not an extra chore if you capture the ambient heat of a cooking source. Putting plates in the oven when you take the food out to rest. Putting a plate on top of the toaster for half a minute could work in this case.

chilldream• 12 years ago

Is this something that doesn't happen in some climates? I've never noticed nor even heard about this "toast sweat" in my life.

Ellipsis7532• 12 years ago

This is amazing. Keep up the good work. I'd be quite happy if governments would give small grants to this kind of every day useful research. I personally eat large amounts of toast so this is an issue very close to my heart. Here in the UK toast is often balanced on it's side against something to avoid this. I believe you can also buy a small toast rack for this purpose. (However I often fear that this cools the toast too quickly.)

I'd be interested to know next if it's possible for the plate to be too hot?

Ellipsis7532• 12 years ago

Also I'd be interested to know how the room temperature affects it. If I eat my toast in my fridge will I get less toast sweat? What should I set my house thermostat to? My guess is setting the room temperate as high as possible (and as close to Murray temperature as possible) would be best but I'd like to know for sure.

Experiment: Eliminating Toast Sweat

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