Uber sued by family of six-year-old killed in San Francisco crash

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/27/uber-sued-family-six-year-old-killed-crash-san-francisco

by georgebashi • 12 years ago

28 39 12 years ago

theguardian.com

nobody_nowhere• 12 years ago

FTA> This is the first case against Uber and is likely to be hard fought by the company

First legal case against uber? My ass it is.

faramarz5• 12 years ago

The article doesn't mention if the driver was en-route to pick up a driver.

Uber should be liable once driver taps on the button and a customer is locked in. He's rushing to get there, like any other taxi who sees a customer flag them down across the road.

Makes sense no? That said, this is any company's nightmare. Why don't they just settle and be a good citizen.

avalaunch4• 12 years ago

What if he wasn't currently en-route to pick up a passenger but had the app open, available to be assigned a new ride?

My guess is that he had recently dropped off a passenger and was trying to get back to a location that he thought would make it more likely for him to be selected for another ride.

Do you think Uber should be liable then?

RealGeek2• 12 years ago

Why isn't Uber liable?

Let's say I am a developer working at FooCorp and my employer provides an insurance for any accidents caused during work.

Now while I was having my lunch, there was a fire in kitchen that killed 2 employees. Now would it be fair for my employer to say that since the 2 employees weren't writing code when the accident happened, they are not liable for the accident?

faramarz5• 12 years ago

I thought about it and I'm going to say yes. Uber is absolutely liable.

Simple;

  If Uber app is on = cab driver makes money
  If Uber app is off = cab driver makes no money.

Uber app operating is proof that cab driver is looking to get paid, looking for patrons, and hence employed by Uber.

Only way to circumvent that is to shut off the App if you're not going to be picking up anyone or you're in a buffer zone, grabbing lunch etc.

Am I wrong?

jcampbell13• 12 years ago

Muzzafar was cooperative, Mahoney said, and “claimed he was driving around and his Uber application was turned on and he was waiting for a fare or job close by.” [1]

I don't think this case is going to have any dispute about the facts. He did not have a passenger, was not enroute to a passenger, but had the Uber App on and was driving around waiting for a fare.

[1] http://www.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/uber-driver-arrested-...

faramarz5• 12 years ago

I still can't find the line you just quoted.. maybe i'm tired. hmm

faramarz5• 12 years ago

IMO, the only way Uber wouldn't be liable is if the cab driver shut off his uber phone and turned on his personal phone.

Uber app on means he's ALWAYS hunting for business. Uber enabled that. Uber's insurance should protect the driver.

zobzu• 12 years ago

kinda funny how it defends "taxi's good driving". pretty sure i don't need to describe how theres safe and less safe drivers and taxi certainly aren't a model of safety for driving in general.

jonobird1• 12 years ago

I don't see how Uber is responsible. Correct me if I'm wrong but you wouldn't sue Android if you were texting while driving, or Google Maps if you were changing your location and had a crash.

So why would Uber be responsible if their driver was using their app? Especially if Uber says to their drivers not to use it while driving.

Interested to hear thoughts here.

RealGeek2• 12 years ago

If I was under a sort of employment contract with Google and using a Google's device and app as a part of Google Street View project, they should be liable for the accidents.

alecsmart1• 12 years ago

I agree with you. I don't understand why you have been downvoted. Am not from US so maybe there is a different thought process.

velis_vel• 12 years ago

Under your Google scenario, presumably the person using Google Maps on Android wasn't operating as a driver working for Google. Uber hired him to drive cars, so they're liable for what he does while he drives them.

joshuaheard• 12 years ago

You would have to read the complaint for the actual language as the article contains an ambiguous summary. I agree with your reasoning, that it sounds like I could sue Facebook if a driver was looking at Facebook while driving. However, if he was looking at the Uber app as part of his duties with Uber, Uber may be liable. If true that Uber instructs its drivers not to use the app while driving, Uber may have a defense.

rd108• 12 years ago

Uber, Lyft and its ilk are half innovative, efficient tech services and half hypercapitalist scavengers employing workers while avoiding paying those pesky benefits, worker's compensation or damages to a dead six year old's family.

johnrob• 12 years ago

Scavengers is probably extreme, but they do tend to paint a half picture when it comes to the externalities of their services.

samstave2• 12 years ago

As a user f Uber since very early on, I half agree, half disagree.

Uber is awesome -- ut the costing model fucking sucks.

When in SF I lived in Presidio and Upper Market/Noe Valley area...

Getting the SF cabs to come to my house was so infuriating; nobody wanted to come pick me up in Presidio or Noe Valley.

I was actually banned from multiple cab companies, as - it turns out - they share caller data: I was calling multiple cab companies to my house (Because nobody would show) as a shotgun approach to getting a cab. A dispatcher told me I was blacklisted due to this practice; my response was that if the cab had shown up, I wouldnt do this...

They didnt care. (I had MANY calls where I called 20+ times and waited 2 hours.)

FUC THE SF CABS. PERIOD.

HOWEVER; I think that Uber (and ALL cabs) are way over priced.

The fact that I had to pay $75 to take me from SF to SFO - where I was FLYING to LAX from SFO for $99 - I found this ridiculous!

The fact is that all CAB fees are just not congruous with the service.

When A cab ride from a home in SF to SFO costs ~$80, but takes ~30 minutes, you're paying the equiv $160K per year for the services of a DRIVER...

This is not sustainable.

jaksmit• 12 years ago

if you are concerned about price, then why didn't you just use Uber X? I just did SF to SFO via Uber X and it was $30.

kunaalarya• 12 years ago

I've taken UberX to the airport and it's been $5 over the cost of a cab when I take a cab.

The reason Uber black car costs $65 (not sure if they charge more from Presidio) is because it is still cheaper than taking a black car limo from an agency. Black car is a luxury good.

Uber is great for within the city and UberX is now cheaper than a cab in a lot of cases. $7 home for me vs $12 for a cab. It replaces cars for a lot of people and the demand they've had for it shows that it IS sustainable. It's an amazing alternative over cabs, price included.

diN0bot• 12 years ago

SuperShuttle provides cheap rides to and from airports (flat rate, so esp. good for say presidio) and actually shows up at obscure locations or calls if they can't find you.

icebraining• 12 years ago

They're just trying to pass as a real cab company:

http://setexasrecord.com/news/280325-east-texas-family-files...

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/nyregion/new-york-taxi-dri...

enoch_r• 12 years ago

On benefits and worker's comp: almost single UberX driver I've talked to has raved about Uber. Spontaneously. Why? Because the main way Uber saves money, compared to traditional taxi companies, isn't "avoiding paying those pesky benefits" or workers comp. They save money by not getting taxi medallions--part of a regulatory quota system that serves no purpose other than to artificially limit the number of cabs.

Note that since cab drivers can't usually afford hundreds of thousands of dollars for a taxi medallion, they have to lease them--so it's primarily people with a few hundred thousand dollars to spare (taxi companies and their investors) not drivers, that benefit from this hamstrung competition.

A lot of people criticize Uber because "it isn't really innovative, they are just skirting regulations." Well, maybe avoiding the regulations is the innovative part. It's a loophole, and to me (not a lawyer) it seems shocking that it's legally workable. But they've dramatically increased the incomes and freedom of cab drivers, and substantially decreased the price of cabs (I only take UberX, and it's at least 30% less than an equivalent cab here in Orange County, CA). And now that drivers and customers have experienced a medallion-free taxi system, the taxi companies are going to have a hard time regaining control.

jboydyhacker• 12 years ago

Reading the headline I thought - well if there was no passenger- they are fine. However, if their whole model is based on drivers using an app to find passengers and the guy was hunting around for them when he hit the pedestrian- it's problematic. I guess Uber could take the position they assume the driver is stationary when getting new instructions.

georgemcbay• 12 years ago

I'm sure this ruling here gives them a bit of the cold sweats:

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2013/08/27/senders-of-texts-to-driv...

Granted it happened in NJ, not CA, and it isn't directly applicable anyway, but they might have a hard time with the same sort of idea applied to the way their entire dispatching model works.

I would think if the plaintiffs could prove conclusively the guy was actively operating the Uber app at the time of the accident (which they tend to imply in these stories but I have no idea if that's just spin) it would be nearly a slam dunk case in front of your average jury.

acmiller• 12 years ago

If you're interested, you can read the complaint on the SF Superior Court's website. [1]

[1] http://webaccess.sftc.org/Scripts/Magic94/mgrqispi94.dll?APP...

lxmorj• 12 years ago

The job they are paid to do is move people right? They aren't paid to monitor the app while driving. Is an employer liable for a worker crashing on the way to work?

jacalata• 12 years ago

Sometimes the employer is liable, yes: http://www.atblaw.net/blog/tag/employee-injured-on-way-to-wo...

cloudwizard• 12 years ago

Uber claims to be a platform like Ebay. When I buy something on Ebay, I pay the seller not Ebay.

When I get a ride on Uber, I pay Uber. Uber pays the driver. Uber cancelled the drivers account. They fired the driver. Uber is screwed. Luckily, they have a lot of money.

Shinkei• 12 years ago

Ugh, it had to be Chris Dolan defending this family. They should've hired somebody more respectable than the guy who defended the Jahi McMath family. He is an affront to rational thinking in society.

zikzikzik• 12 years ago

How does Uber compare to Mechanical Turk in this regard? Would Amazon (or a requester?!) be liable for accidents happening to (or caused by) turkers while they are working on a request?

Uber sued by family of six-year-old killed in San Francisco crash

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