Germans abandon hope of US 'no-spy' treaty

http://www.thelocal.de/20140114/germany-gives-up-hope-of-no-spy-deal-with-nsa-usa

by f_salmon • 13 years ago

117 97 13 years ago

Nanzikambe• 13 years ago

Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful?

After all there's and obvious disconnect between the various spy agencies and political process, with the former typically giving less than lip service to most treaties/laws in the past.

harryf• 13 years ago

Were they able to secure such a treaty, why would there be any expectation that it'd be meaningful?

I would be very meaningful in a symbolic sense. Germany and most of Western Europe are used to seeing themselves as close allies of the US since WW2.

With close allies you expect to be able to reach an acceptable level of trust on topics like spying, even though you know both sides are still going to do it at some level.

By not being able to sign this agreement the message for Germans / US relations is "we trust you just like we trust the Chinese". That will likely lead to a weakening of past alliances...

ulfw• 13 years ago

Yea but I guess it's at least more honest this way ;)

igl• 13 years ago

Germany is not a sovereign country, there is no peace contract. "Seeing themselves as close allies" is kinda lol looking from the fact that we are occupied since 60 years.

mcv• 13 years ago

That's pretty much my view. If the US persists, then there's basically no real alliance anymore. NATO is dead.

aet• 13 years ago

Found this interesting tidbit on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall

The National Security Agency was the only American intelligence agency that was aware that East Germany was to take action to deal with the brain drain problem, i.e. the outflow of East-Germans via Berlin. On 9 August 1961, the NSA intercepted an advance warning information of the East German Communist Party's plan to close the intra-Berlin borders between East- and West-Berlin completely for foot traffic. The interagency intelligence Watch Committee assessed that this intercept "might be the first step in a plan to close the border." This warning reached not U.S. President John F. Kennedy until noon on August 13, 1961, who was vacationing in his yacht off the Kennedy Compound in Hyannis Port, Massachusetts. While Kennedy was angry that he had no advance warning, he was relieved that the East Germans and the Soviets had only divided Berlin without taking any action against West Berlin's access to the West. However he denounced the Berlin Wall, whose erection worsend the relations between the United States and the Soviet Union.

onli• 13 years ago

There weren't any. The treaty was a method for chancellor to look like she reacts at least a little bit given the situation, while still effectively doing and changing nothing. The former was important because of the elections the later because germany is not a sovereign country.

lispm• 13 years ago

The relationship between Germany the US is quite special. After the WWII West Germany was occupied by the US, Britain and France - the East was occupied by the Soviet Union. Germany was under tight control from those countries. The US then decided to build up Germany again to use it as an ally against the Soviet block. The NATO then took over as the institution under which the various troops were deployed in West Germany and under which the various activities were coordinated.

After the reunification many rights of the Nato allies (and especially the US) were still protected.

Germany would need discuss with the allies how to change these older treaties. Plus it would also need to discuss with the US the shutdown of various activities of the US in Germany and against German interests:

* spying on Germany on German ground. The US has lots of installations here.

* spying on Germany from the outside (like tapping communication cables outside Germany which are going to Germany)

* using Germany has a base for various wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, various conflicts in Africa). For example the US has the Central Military Command for Africa in Germany. Drone strikes are coordinated by the US from Germany. The US has logistics centrals for their intelligence agencies in Germany.

* using Germany for various extremely unpopular actions, like using Germany as a transport hub for kidnapped people who were brought to torture camps in Europe or even to places outside Europe

etc.etc.

bananacurve2• 13 years ago

The article directly contradicts itself.

A government spokesman said the talks between the US and Germany were ongoing and they hoped to “get something in the next three months.”

mikeash• 13 years ago

I interpret this as meaning that they hope to get something in the treaty but not all of the anti-spying measures they wanted.

enkephalin• 13 years ago

that is the official statement. the rest of the statements were made by an anonymous source, with inside information.

marcuspovey• 13 years ago

Possibly, this may actually be a good thing, at least as far as the internet is concerned. When governments realise that they can't get any "special exemptions" put in for them, the only real option left open is to throw their weight behind measures to secure the internet for everybody.

aluhut3• 13 years ago

Problem here is: the german intelligence agencies rely on the US. So we may see some political show on the surface but beneath that, nothing will happen. If we (the Germans) are unlucky, it may even end up in a show where the politicians tell us that we need more secret agency involvement to "protect us from the US" which of course will only end up as another excuse to collect even more data. Same thing they tried to sell us with the "Schlandnet" where T-Online would take over the control within Germany. There was a interesting show on the 30C3 on this.

sentenza• 13 years ago

Here is an important point for the non-Germans, so that you can understand why this was even asked for:

Unlike the German rabble, its political leaders (with very rare exceptions) are personally invested in the "trans-atlantic partnership". The underlying assumption on the German side is of course that this is a partnership among equals.

Team Merkel is hoping sooo bad that a high-ranking US official will come out to tell them that they haven't been just a bunch of chumps. I wonder how they will react now that it has become clear that that won't happen.

They'll probably just step up their self-delusion game.

Argorak• 13 years ago

Another piece of info that is missing: there were elections in germany last autumn. Going into negotiations for a "no-spy" agreement also meant that the administration could say that they are doing something. Even though the negotiations have now turned out worthless (kind of predictable...), the elections are over now and they are in safe waters.

mathattack2• 13 years ago

What's the point of a No Spy treaty if people will break it anyway? Being a cynic, if you're going to spy anyway, isn't it better to have a situation where everyone knows that everyone else is spying, and have fake outrage? (I'm assuming that the treaty won't stop anything)

wahsd3• 13 years ago

Well, if you say "no, really, ...now...this time stop lying and cheating and stalking. Ok, we're good not, right." then it will mean something.

mathattack2• 13 years ago

I will only believe it if they preface it with "honestly" or "frankly". :-) Where is Orwell when we need him?

ImprovedSilence• 13 years ago

What makes you think this current outrage isn't the "fake outrage" you are looking for?

fit2rule4• 13 years ago

How ironic will it be if the next generation of German kids has to rise up to fight the totalitarian might of the USA? I see it happening, already .. truly a staggering circumstance that we are here now in the 21st Century, and not even Germany can stand up to the tyrants.

gadders3• 13 years ago

The US are tyrants? Seriously?

phaer2• 13 years ago

In the context of international politics they are a clear match for most definitions of tyranny. Killing civilians based on behavioral profiles (look up "signature strikes drones") without any declaration of war against the countries in question (Pakistan, Yemen) is just one example. The relations between the US and most south-american countries is another one.

fit2rule4• 13 years ago

Yes. This fact is becoming increasingly more clear to the rest of the world.

bananacurve2• 13 years ago

That is a lovely fantasy but I'd be surprised if they even cut back on US military bases.

aluhut3• 13 years ago

They won't. The cuts on the German Army bases is already considered a mistake. Forcing (no idea how) the US to close down bases would only hurt the local and regional politicians.

I don't belive it at all.

mortyseinfeld• 13 years ago

We saw what happened when Germany "rose up" in the middle of the last century. I guess Germans though the jews were tyrants back then.

smackay• 13 years ago

you forgot the homosexual tyrants, the gypsy tyrants, the slav tyrants and not forgetting the tyrants with disabilities.

The takeover of the German state by the National Socialist party was little more than a coup by a gang of thugs, psycopaths and criminals. The persecution of Jews and other minorities was just a convenient scapegoat to drag the majority of the population along. The horrible crimes perpretated during this period cannot in anyway be ascribed as a (popular) uprising.

robrenaud• 13 years ago

US gives FU to Germany with the lack of a no-spy treaty.

Germany should respond by giving asylum to Snowden.

rjzzleep• 13 years ago

germany is hardly a sovereign country anymore. they couldn't do so even if they wanted to.

disclaimer: i grew up there

ckoepp• 13 years ago

Of course you have sources for this statement, right?

By the way - this is exactly the argumentation neo-Nazi parties parties proclaim all the time [1]. You must be in lack of any information about what is going on in European and German politics to state stuff like this...

[1] http://npd-fraktion-sachsen.de/index.php?s=111&aid=6373

brazzy6• 13 years ago

That's just ideological right-wing bullshit. Presumably you're referring to the EU, but while there are efforts to harmonize EU asylum laws, it would be hard to find a more incorrect statement about them than that they would not allow a country to grant asylum to someone if it wants to.

Besides, no EU regulation is ever going to get passed that the German government doesn't want to.

PythonicAlpha11• 13 years ago

Of course, giving asylum to Snowden would definitively give a signal to Washington, but I would not advice Snowden to go to Germany.

With the current situation in Germany, Snowden would be dead or in a plane to Guantanamo in very little time. And I guess, even the German BND (comparable to the US NSA) would be helping. I would not trust any promises from a current German government -- by the way, how many US troops are in Germany? I guess, there is no count for US spies yet.

toyg3• 13 years ago

Snowden only needs a German passport.

wahsd3• 13 years ago

He knew what he was doing by going to Russia by way of Hong Kong. He's a damn smart guy that guy. I am curious what will happen when his asylum runs out. Technically speaking, by international law he should be fine as Russia will have legal standing to provide him permanent asylum based on the threat to his life.

We have to remember, we are talking about our government, the same types that while fighting a war on drugs are also making deals with the Cartels that consolidates power under one and permits import of drugs into our country.

sschueller2• 13 years ago

Another big problem is German sovereignty. Many laws need fixing as they still give the US enormous control over what they can do in Germany.

DangerousPie• 13 years ago

Do you have some examples for this?

jeena3• 13 years ago

Not exactly paragraphs but I have a link to SVG on Wikimedia which explains it quite good I think: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_military_bases_in_...

sschueller2• 13 years ago

Here is an excellent talk from 30C3 (In German) which gets into the complexity of the problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ive...

socrates1998• 13 years ago

The US government doesn't realize the implications of their actions. A day will come when the US needs German help, support, or assistance in an area of global importance and the Germans will be very reluctant to help because of this.

The USA has had it good for a long time and has become very spoiled by it's priviledges.

Essentially, the US overplayed it's hand and there will be blow-back consequences.

I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.

It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.

Or, I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on.

All this because the US Government doesn't know how to treat allies and respect sovereignty.

SyneRyder• 13 years ago

"I could see the Germans investing heavily in developing technologies that prevent spying. Germany could become a place where you learn how to NOT be spied on."

This is already happening. The Washington Post had a story in November about how Berlin has become a new haven for leakers & privacy activists. Of course, it probably now makes Berlin one of the most heavily spied-on cities in the world.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/leakers-privacy-a...

grecy2• 13 years ago

I genuinely hope a whole bunch of countries get together and stop using the USD altogether. Make the Euro the standard for Gold and Oil, etc, stop trading on the US-based stock markets, etc. etc.

America's economy is it's greatest vulnerability, and other countries could do great damage to it if they banded together and gave them the finger back.

drjesusphd• 13 years ago

There's a school of thought that the "Axis of Evil", invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, and the ongoing antagonization of Iran and Venezuela are all demonstrations to the world at large of the extent to which the US would respond to such a move.

kleiba• 13 years ago

Presumably you're referring to the US invasion of Iraq.

But I don't think something like the German refusal to cooperate back then is going to happen again. All that matters is money, and German's economy is (solely) based on exports. They need the American consumers for their own good, and German cooperations will make sure they keep their markets.

Perseids• 13 years ago

I could imagine a terrorist living in Germany and the US asks for assistance obtaining him and the Germans tell the US to fuck off.

I don't think that will ever happen. Dismantling a terrorist group is such a decidedly good thing that I'm sure everyone can agree on acting together. (Note though that the terrorist threat is greatly exaggerated (like in: it is several orders of magnitude less dangerous than the media implies).)

It doesn't even have to be a terrorist, it could be a person like Snowden. So, now, instead of assisting the US government, the Germans are actively working against them.

You are kind of mixing positive and negative visions here. Supporting whistle blowers like Snowden should be a matter of course for a democratic nation.

PythonicAlpha11• 13 years ago

I still can't imagine, that the current German government will draw any (slightest) consequences to the US behavior. I even think, that they don't believed themselves on a no-spy deal. But it was a clever cover-up to come across the election without to many penalties. And it worked ... German voters did not recognize a thing.

But of course it might harm the US in the future. There might come the day, that people in Germany and in other countries wake up. Also the US behavior hurts them in south american companies and at least in China. The south american people are fed up with the US behavior already!

alexeisadeski32• 13 years ago

I grew up in the US often hearing stories of Israeli intel agencies spying on the US. 'Everyone spies on everyone, even allies, it's no big deal,' was what everyone always said.

quantumpotato_• 13 years ago

Did you grow up with spies?

alexeisadeski32• 13 years ago

How would I have known!

fafner• 13 years ago

Besides the valid points already raised in the discussion it also shows that the US isn't considering the German intelligence service as a threat. Either because they expect German politicians not having the balls to order it to spy on the US government or because they consider it too incompetent to do so or because they have it in their pockets.

captainmuon• 13 years ago

The German government was hardly really negotiating a no-spy treaty. They benefit too much from the exchange with the US (at least that's what they think). Remember, the NSA is not supposed to spy on US citizens, just as the German BND is not supposed to spy on Germans. So they spy on each other's citizens and exchange the information.

So far so good for Merkel and friends. What probably upsetted them was that the German government was spied upon, too. Also, they were just second-grade allies, and the US was probably trading information with the UK for example, which they didn't share with the Germans (see the "Five Eyes" agreements). But it's hard to believe that any of this is news to the German government, if their intelligence agencies are any of their money worth.

So the big question is, why do they tolerate being spied on? I know, diplomacy is complicated, and you have to make a lot of delicate compromises, and there is a lot that you can't see from outside.

Nevertheless... Espionage is already punishable in Germany. If a German citizen is involved, they might even be charged with treason. If I were Merkel, I would just casually mention the possibility of pressing charges in this case (you can file charges against anonymous in Germany), and use this as leverage e.g. when negotiating trade agreements.

PythonicAlpha11• 13 years ago

All is right, except the last paragraph.

That is just theoretical stuff. Yes, theoretical there might be something like "treason" in some old law book .... But, I don't remember one "treason" prosecution in my life time in Germany, with exception maybe to the DDR-Spy with Willi Brand as chancellor ... wow is this long ago! Also, I think there should be filed charges against many people in Germanys current government because they don't stop the US to spy on German people and companies openly. But nothing happens.

Why, because in Germany there is no independent judiciary at all. There will be no prosecution without federal prosecutor, but all of them have to obey the government -- so no member of government or top politician will ever be prosecuted in Germany, whatever evil they do against the country or the people.

Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up.

junto2• 13 years ago

Germans should start understanding, that they don't live in freedom at all. It is just a mock-up.

Replace Germans with "Everyone".

PythonicAlpha11• 13 years ago

This was only a cover-up by the Merkel administration to win the election in last autumn. Of course, some people that where in the delegation wanted to get some little success to bring home ... but the US showed that they are the rulers and the US is the big boss.

I hope, that slowly some people in Germany wake up. The success of Merkel shows, that many still dream their econony wonder (German: "Wirtschaftswunder") dream of the 70s. But the Germans do not realize, that they have been mucked around. Germans are the country in Europe that has sold their interests most to the US, maybe with the exception of Britain.

king_phil• 13 years ago

Some people realized that years ago, others still don't. It is a shame but Merkel is very popular, especially with older people that don't understand the implications of the NSA scandal.

PythonicAlpha11• 13 years ago

Yes, it is a shame. It is also a shame, that even younger people and even tech people have voted for Merkel.

I guess, egoistic behavior and stupidity is just very widespread.

theandrewbailey• 13 years ago

After reading this, I clicked on the "6 quotes on Germany from Americans" gallery. MLK Jr said "Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal."

Kinda hits the NSA nail on the head.

Germans abandon hope of US 'no-spy' treaty

Related Stories