NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data

http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1477934#bmb=1

by donohoe • 13 years ago

172 202 13 years ago

m.nydailynews.com

dbags3• 13 years ago

Good. I know that Chesky is trying to pretend that this is about people who occasionally share their homes, but that's bullshit. There are a lot of people who are stuck living next to illegal, untaxed hotels because one of their neighbors AirBNBs their place full time.

I know that a lot of people on this site think that if you add the words 'on the internet' you should be exempt from all regulation and taxation, but that's just not how the world works.

I hope that the people who've been profiting from the lack of enforcement are forced to play on a level playing field.

Disclaimer: my experience with NYC AirBNBs have been incredibly negative, including people listing with fake names, revealing that they'd given fake addresses at the last minute (when it was already too late to change plans), showing deceptive photos, and giving false descriptions.

brador• 13 years ago

Why would they give a fake address?

lylejohnson• 13 years ago

Because some addresses or locations in a city are more desirable than others?

TheBiv• 13 years ago

post code envy

mrcactu5• 13 years ago

Do you live in New York City? I don't think it's bullshit.

This is about landlords who don't want individuals to make money subletting their apartments. The old rich guys in Westchester who own all the housing in the Bronx.

  There are a lot of people who are stuck living next to illegal, 
  untaxed hotels because one of their neighbors AirBNBs their place full time.

I don't see what's wrong with this. Landlords routinely take advantage of ill-informed tentants charging very high rates for roach-infested apartments without running hot water. These should not be on AirBNB -- the housing was illegal to begin with.

AirBNB is a crapshoot - I did it one time it was amazing... since all parties involved were responsible.

NYC may need to be subject to special consumer protection rules, pay taxes etc. in order to make this work.

  Airbnb CEO Brian Chesky cautions that the government
  is over-reaching in its demand for data.

Chesky is wrong. NYC can and should subpoena for his data - Schneiderman has the public interest in mind. New Yorkers are that shady, but someone has to read this data...

mhb2• 13 years ago

Here's what's wrong with it (in the case of rent controlled apartments in NYC).

The city has embraced rent control as a way of foisting the cost of "affordable" housing on landlords. As a result, apartments constrained to below-market rents receive below-market maintenance. Now illegal subletters seek to capture the benefit of this market distortion.

But maybe you're right - the way to fix this problem of deteriorating housing is for the government to become more involved in micromanaging the illegal subletting.

sitkack3• 13 years ago

Mirrors my experience to a T. There are so many issues with AirBNB (bidding process, calendar, cost model, trust model) that it strikes me as being created by some naive suburban kids. The amount of work that they do to prevent out of band messaging makes any sort of meaningful discourse or authentication impossible.

sneak6• 13 years ago

I get the impression you've only used it once or twice.

It generally works really well, and in many cities all over the planet.

I trust you provided feedback against your bad host?

fnordfnordfnord2• 13 years ago

I know that a lot of people on this site think that if you add the words 'on the internet' you should be exempt from all regulation and taxation, but that's just not how the world works.
I hope that the people who've been profiting from the lack of enforcement are forced to play on a level playing field.

If only there were a level playing field. I think the rebellion from the regulatory structure is a reaction to the unfairness of it. Hotel reg's, Taxi reg's, these systems unfairly favor established players and established business models.

Xylakant18• 13 years ago

Hotel regulations at least partially benefit me as a customer. Hotels are subject to health checks for example. B&B places are exempt from some of the regulations, but not from all. So why don't AirBnB-hosts just go and apply for a B&B license - or maybe AirBnB handles the legalities for them. There's no conceivable reason that AirBnB-places should receive a preferred treatment in that matter - so I must admit I don't see and rebellion from the regulatory structure. They're just enforcing the rules that every other player is bound to as well. I also fail to see that adherence to health and fire code unfairly favors established players - quite to the contrary, those not adhering to the standards take an unfair advantage.

One of the price differences between AirBnB and other establishments is that often AirBnB-Host don't factor in taxes just because they consider themselves exempt. Why should tax avoidance be tolerated? What's unfair about cracking down on those that cheat?

laxatives3• 13 years ago

I'm living in one of these places now and I could not say enough negative things about the place or AirBNB. Its a mess, most of the rooms are either filled with beds or used entirely for furniture/tool storage. There were no shared trashbins until about 4-6 weeks after I had arrived. One of the guests had a severe breakdown and would spend hours in the middle of the night rapping or shouting at the top of the lungs, forcing his roommates to move to the permanent tents in the backyard. Eventually the guy left during one of his rants and disappeared for a few days, during which the landlord had us avoid calling the police because he did not want to have them involved. Worst of all, I feel like none of us are in a position to do anything. I complained within a few hours of arrival on my first day because the place is a mess, but AirBNB charges a months rent to leave early on a long term stay and there's nothing to gain in destroying our relatioships with the landlord. The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords. I'll probably never use AirBNB again regardless.

NathanKP5• 13 years ago

Wow... You guys seem to have had horrible experiences. May I ask what area you are staying in?

I've stayed at Airbnb places in the Williamsburg, Brooklyn area about ten times now over the past couple years and my experience has been satisfactory every time. And I've stayed in the entire range of Airbnb, from very nice places where I'm basically a roommate for a month and eating meals with my host, etc, to places where I rarely see the owner and it is obvious they don't live there but just rent it out, to an old loft that was subdivided into small rooms and being rented out to four different Airbnb guests at once. The subdivided loft one was probably the most illegal one I ever stayed in because it certainly wasn't up to code but it was still very cool and the other guests were polite and quiet.

The only time I've ever had a bad experience with AirBNB was once when staying at a place in San Francisco which turned out to be very dirty due to the owner being out of country and just having his next door neighbor give the keys to short term renters.

The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords.

I call bullshit on this. Leaving a bad review on a host is not going to get you rejected by future landlords unless those landlords are also running dumps and they don't want to get bad reviews, and in that case you probably don't want to stay there anyway.

The key is to find places that have lots of reviews and read them. If you see anything amiss don't stay there. If you stick to well reviewed places you will have a great experience.

If you choose to break new ground and try completely new unreviewed places (which I have done from time to time) it is more of a gamble. You can also get some great experiences that way as well, because in general newer, unreviewed places don't charge as much so as to attract people, while the older very well reviewed and run places will charge nearly double in most cases compared to brand new places. Basically, you get what you pay for, as with many other things in life.

uladzislau• 13 years ago

"The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords."

Airbnb ratings is the worst part. You can't trust them at all. That makes using Airbnb like playing Russian roulette. There's no negative feedback on the shittiest places.

emmett• 13 years ago

It sounds like you're using AirBNB for a longterm sublet...I didn't even know that was possible! I've had nothing but great experiences using it in NYC (>5 times), but then I've always used it for a weekend stay.

Can I ask why you used AirBNB for something so far outside the "normal" zone that it's pitched for? Why not just do a craigslist search for longterm sublets?

ryguytilidie2• 13 years ago

"I know that a lot of people on this site think that if you add the words 'on the internet' you should be exempt from all regulation and taxation, but that's just not how the world works."

Yeah dude, you're right, it's this point you made up that no one is upset about that people are ACTUALLY upset about...?

Oh, I see, because your experience has been negative you should definitely make up a strawman and beat it to death for no good reason. We all know that projecting views on everyone on an entire site is a super healthy and productive way to make a point.

potatolicious5• 13 years ago

Don't speak for me.

I'm upset about the lack of taxation and regulation. I care about it in the AirBnb context, I also care about it in the Lyft and Sidecar context. These are all cases where we have a massive provisioning of services, in a context where caveat emptor is not actually practical, in industries where vendor-side abuse has been historically endemic.

We regulated the slum-hotels of the 20s and 30s out of existence. We regulated gypsy cabs (mostly) out of existence. I personally still recall living in a time where unregulated cabs would hold passengers for ransom by driving them to the middle of nowhere. Thankfully I no longer live in such a time or place.

I'm concerned that in our obsession with "move fast and break things" we're doing a lot of the latter. Some of these regulations are powered by vested interests. Some of it is historical and represent hard-learned lessons. The tech industry's collective attitude towards them seems to be "all laws are archaic and outdated, ignore all laws that don't benefit us". I for one don't believe in this for one second.

mtalantikite• 13 years ago

And it's not just tenants renting out their apartments without their landlord's knowledge, I have friends living in a loft building in Greenpoint where the owner no longer rents out the spaces long term. Instead he furnishes the units and rents them out to tourists on airbnb whenever he can get a unit to vacate. This takes units off the market -- in an already scarce market -- and forces normal people to live in buildings run as hotels.

apaprocki• 13 years ago

As much as people want to like AirBnb, I'd guess most rentals in NYC are illegal given the existing laws on the books. This is why NY is requesting the data from AirBnb.

Owners can not rent less than 30 days unless they are present. In addition, I do not know of a single condominium building that allows AirBnb style rentals -- most at this point have modified their rules/by-laws to explicitly forbid it so as not to leave any room for interpretation open.

I am President of my condo board and we both have this language in our rules as well as have a hefty fine for violating them. The minimum allowed rental is 12 months and includes a full background and financial check. Unit owners with common amenities do _not_ want short-term rentals in their buildings and can prevent them legally.

beedogs2• 13 years ago

This was pretty much bound to happen. Next they'll go after each host for all sorts of taxes and penalties.

triplesec8• 13 years ago

Indeed. The rhetoric says "evil landlords". The practice is more likely the low-hanging fruit. A bit like zero-tolerance policing: hits the human pawns and ordinary people the hardest and the actual putative bad guys get a free pass, as usual.

jtbigwoo2• 13 years ago

I hope there's a cost/benefit analysis here where the Attorney General's office hits those landlords above a certain number of nights. It wouldn't necessarily make economic sense to go after a guy renting out a single apartment.

kfk6• 13 years ago

The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop.

However, users data. I don't know, there is a thin line between enforcing the law and not respecting citizens freedom and privacy.

The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in the city out in the suburbs then.

buro9• 13 years ago

Users in this context are AirBNBs users, those letting their apartments short-term.

Which means that this is the State's hitlist of tax avoiders.

This is tax enforcement pure and simple, and doesn't seem to be a privacy issue. I've never heard of a reasonable defence against not paying tax being "that's my business and not yours", tax enforcement always wins.

kfk6• 13 years ago

In Italy tax authorities have grown more and more powerful during the last years. At some point, they were suggesting checking all personal bank accounts and expenditures.

Think on the consequences of this.

By the way, in the AirBnB case, you can always have police pretending to rent flats to get the tax offenders. This would protect privacy and scare offenders.

DanBC• 13 years ago

The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in the city out in the suburbs then.

Hotels in cities have to obey laws about fire risk and hygiene and noise and etc etc. They have accountable people to take responsibility for their guests.

That could be true for many AirBnB hosts, but there appears to be some who just don't care about the neighbours.

baddox2• 13 years ago

The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop.

The problem with this analysis is that a State also creates these laws and can change them.

Lagged2Death• 13 years ago

The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop.

Well I just don't think that's so.

A tremendous number of technically illegal things are routinely ignored, downplayed, or considered low priorities for enforcement. Everybody goes a little over the speed limit; everybody jaywalks; genteel, expensive drug-dealing and prostitution are common enough; domestic violence and abuse in all its permutations is unpunished more often than not; and so on ad nauseam.

Law enforcement is always selective enforcement. There just aren't enough executive resources to do anything else.

jval2• 13 years ago

Right... so Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's campaign contributors last election?

http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate...

At number 4 with 1.58% of total campaign moneys, East 103rd Street Realty. Parent corporation: Glenwood Real Estate Corp.

http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/

"Luxury Apartment Rentals in New York City"

Obviously the fact that people are renting their apartments is not something that buildings are capable of managing for themselves and has become a matter of great importance to the entire state of New York.

danielweber2• 13 years ago

1.58%? That's it? How does it compare to Spitzer raising a bunch of money from Wall Street firms while chasing a bunch of other Wall Street firms?

Xylakant18• 13 years ago

Or blatant tax avoidance and disregard for building code and hotel regulations is a matter of importance for the state of New York. It may seem all outdated to us global internet citizens, but a lot of those old-fashioned real-world rules evolved because there was a problem. That's not to say that all rules in their current incarnation are sensible and well applicable to the current state of affairs, but participation in the law system is not voluntary - you don't get to opt out just because you think it's unjust.

27182818284• 13 years ago

That's not to say that all rules in their current incarnation are sensible

We should be having that debate rather than shooting first and asking questions later.

ryguytilidie2• 13 years ago

I think the point is that you shouldn't be vastly more likely to enforce laws that would harm the competitors of your biggest campaign donors but I guess making up the persons argument and then tearing that down is more satisfying?

wahsd2• 13 years ago

I get that, but if you really think this has ANYTHING to do with enforcement of safety and health standards then you are living in a dream. If that was their primary concern then the nasty cesspool "hotels" would not exist. Even big, corporate chain hotels are usually nasty and disgusting.

This is ALL about collecting taxes and ensuring private profits in clear and simple form of corruption out of incompetence and fear of actually having to compete. Maybe prices need to come down or service needs to improve so I may want to stay at a hotel that can provide what an AirBnB can't?

Imagine that. American companies actually having to compete instead of rigging systems that ensure "success".

rayiner4• 13 years ago

That's just shocking ad hominem, and very bad ad hominem at that. So the parent company of the company that contributed less than 2% to this guy's election campaign offers luxury apartment rentals? Call the presses!

Seriously, your naked aspersion doesn't even make sense in this context. AirBnB isn't competing with luxury apartment rentals. To the extent that a luxury apartment rental company might be interested in the issue, it's because they're worried about the impact on them if their tenants or the tenants of neighboring buildings start treating their properties as hotels through AirBnB. That concern is a totally valid one as a property owner.

selmnoo• 13 years ago

I agree with the larger point you're making, but one nitpick:

AirBnB isn't competing with luxury apartment rentals.

Have you seen some of the houses listed on AirBnB? There are some that ask like $3000 per night. Luxury apartment rentals have all the right reasons to be worried here.

jval2• 13 years ago

To be fair, I think this is a perfectly legitimate ad hominem attack which I've phrased in the least exaggerated way possible. In politics, we have to question not only whether a prosecution is just but whether it is brought in the interests of the public or to further a private interest. That's why the interest registers are public.

I stated the facts as they were and didn't embellish it at all (I could have easily written 'his fourth largest contributor is a Luxury Apartment Rentals Company!') because I'm not trying to suggest that he is some how 'in the pocket' of Glenwood. I didn't even go down the list of campaign contributors to see whether there were others (which I'm sure there are, and just looking quickly the next donor on the Real Estate list is East 46th Realty which is also owned by Glenwood).

What I'm trying to suggest is that like all of America's politicians, he is under the influence of lobbyists and the reason he is taking this issue seriously is because people with money have put it on his radar.

The luxury apartment rentals market is under threat from Airbnb. I'm just about to do a 3 month rental in NYC and some of the apartments available are amazing (often costing thousands of dollars per night - clearly out of my price range but not for others). If the luxury rental companies are worried about other people in the building using AirBnB, that suggests that the same apartments they are leasing are available on AirBnB. I can't think of a scenario where lost profits isn't a huge issue for these guys.

I get what you're saying, and I agree that in any event the state always wants to help property owners who pay most of the taxes. But I think a measure as broad reaching as this is something that is designed primarily to intimidate users of the platform. If the state were serious about the tax collection aspect it would just force AirBnB to calculate and collect the hotels tax, not seize data and selectively prosecute its users. People aren't going to run through the laws in their head and question what the State is trying to achieve. They are just going to get scared when they hear the State is seizing AirBnB data and stop using AirBnB.

I'm not suggesting that this is some kind of grand conspiracy, I'm suggesting that it is just business as usual in the USA.

flexie• 13 years ago

There is something deeply concerning about a criminal justice system in which prosecutors are elected politicians but in this particular case I highly doubt that the $40,000 or 1.58 percent matters much for this Schneiderman's decisions. Also, AirBnB is not competing on long term luxury apartment rentals so I don't see the connection.

JackFr5• 13 years ago

The AG of New York hasn't been appointed since the before the Revolution. Prior to 1847 he was elected by the legislature since then the people.

Why is an elected prosecutor worse than one appointed by an elected executive? There seems to be great concern about elected officials being corrupted but there aren't a lot of great alternatives.

parennoob• 13 years ago

Sorry, but as someone who originally comes from a largely corrupt third world country, this sounds like a case of institutionalized corruption to me.

Why is the Attorney General an elected official anyway? You would think members of the judiciary would be either elected from amongst themselves or appointed by the executive, but direct election seems to open the door to a raft of opportunities to pander to your campaign contributors' interests. And this is not even considering the load of indirect kickbacks that candidates could be getting - club memberships, admission to selective schools for their children, spots on company boards, etc.

sneak6• 13 years ago

Yes, they just characterized property owners seeking fair market value from tenants as "robbing the city" (direct quote).

Thanks, guys.

triplesec8• 13 years ago

This is Tea-party-level argumentation, by recasting the argument in strawman terms. It is not the case that "I own therefore I am god". With power comes responsibility, and here there are people looking for gain without the commensurate social responsibility.

sneak6• 13 years ago

"Social responsibility" is imaginary, because society is imaginary. It can't be hurt, it doesn't have opinions, and we certainly don't have any responsibilities to it.

It's an abstraction.

geebee2• 13 years ago

There's an interesting type of reasoning I call "11:59-ing" the market. People find themselves in a position where they can profit, as long as the government suspends enforcement of a narrow band of laws. These folks often become very angry when the government interferes with the profitability of their government sponsored monopoly. The set up for this arbitrage opportunity requires government, but it's only profitable if the government stops enforcing it for the last minute of the day, often retroactively.

As it stands, AirBnB is clearly illegal in many lucrative markets. Houses are not hotels, nor are they priced as hotels. You can buy a house, or rent one, for less than it would cost to buy a hotel, precisely because you're not allowed to use it as a hotel. So buy at that low price under one set of regulations and then demand to run a hotel under a different set of regulations, at a huge personal profit and damage to your neighbors.

lotsofcows2• 13 years ago

"A drunk European"? Nice, I do like a bit of casual racism.

jalfresi• 13 years ago

European isn't a race. I think you mean xenophobia.

triplesec8• 13 years ago

Still it's pretty fair. We drink a lot. We exported a lot of our Puritans to the New World. For better or worse.

lotsofcows2• 13 years ago

No, I mean racist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)

danielweber2• 13 years ago

Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline?

"State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by greedy building owners."

Greedy is a value judgment with big negative connotations.

po• 13 years ago

Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline?

Yes. Very normal. It's a tabloid.

noarchy• 13 years ago

They could just as easily have rewritten the headline to say:

"Greedy State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by building owners."

The headline is indeed making a value judgement that the State is noble in going after money, but that building owners are not when they want money.

JackFr5• 13 years ago

To your first question, yes.

goatforce5• 13 years ago

The state may be concerned about building owners who are greedy. That doesn't imply that all building owners are greedy.

king_jester• 13 years ago

It is important to note that is it a big deal to NYC to ensure that residential spaces do not become de facto hotel rooms that avoid the taxes and regulation associated with running a hotel. NYC has been experiencing tremendous rent cost increases over the last decade and housing costs are becoming more unaffordable. Any residential space that gets turned into a pseudo hotel that generates income at the expense of being a livable space for an NYC resident only makes this situation worse.

testing12341234• 13 years ago

Does anyone know if an out of state ecommerce site like Amazon is required to give user data in this manner. Focusing on the state tax issue, it would appear that these two systems are similar in that taxpayer is required to declare and remit taxes (but often doesn't).

(obviously the other issues about whether it's even legal to rent out in the first place is another matter)

Xylakant18• 13 years ago

The german tax authorities actually crawl ebay to find commercial sellers posing as private citizens.

smackfu• 13 years ago

North Carolina tried back in 2010: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20020680-281.html

It was denied as a violation of privacy.

epc2• 13 years ago

I don't know that it's a routine thing but NY State has requested (and received) sales data from Amazon in the past.

danso• 13 years ago

I wonder how much this could've been avoided had Airbnb built in tax collection into the system? Yes, the pain of doing it by jurisdiction is one of those unscalable tasks, but you only have to run through it once (i.e. look up the state tax laws) every few years, or hire a single lawyer/accountant to do it full time.

I did a Airbnb stay in Rome last year...the gov't there has been trying to better enforce its tax laws, even to a comedic degree (you, the customer, can get in trouble for walking out of a gelato shop without a receipt). My host made very sure I signed the right paperwork after my stay...and I'm guessing as long as the state gets its share, it has less incentive to crack down on it.

twoodfin• 13 years ago

As others have speculated in this thread, I think their chief concern was implicitly acknowledging that their hosts were "hotels" or whatever other business type is covered by the tax.

For one thing, making this determination jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction is much harder than simply looking up the hotel tax rate. For another, if Airbnb is representing a host as a "hotel" by charging the tax, they might be liable if that host turns out to not follow any of what must be dozens of legal requirements, again, all of which are going to vary greatly by jurisdiction.

hippich• 13 years ago

It is not just taxes (at least in USA,) It is also about building code, hotel licenses and different neighborhood's/apartment complexes rules someone could be breaking if renting their house/apartment.

argumentum7• 13 years ago

There seems to be some confusion about the tax issue here .. many commenters seem to think that AirBnB hosts are avoiding tax on their income via AirBnB. That's simply not true, in fact AirBnB reports this income to the IRS and you are required to fill out a tax form to continue hosting.

The issue at question is a tiny (% wise) hotel tax. In my view AirBnB is not resisting this tax for its own sake, but rather because it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators.

AirBnB is a wonderful service, and yes it has flaws, but NYC is caving to the demands of political interests who know how to play the lobbying game.

untog6• 13 years ago

it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators

But why is that a risk, or a negative? I'd be interested to know what obligations hotel operators have. If it's putting in fire extinguishers and ensuring emergency fire exit access, then, well, sign them up.

marknutter2• 13 years ago

Because an apartment is not a hotel. What on earth would an emergency exit for an apartment be? The front door? I'm betting there are all sorts of requirements that simply wouldn't make sense when applied to a single apartment.

argumentum7• 13 years ago

It obviously more than just fire regulations. Hotels are probably required to be inspected on a regular basis, probably required to maintain a presence at the building, required to have a process to clean every room after each stay. They probably require a "manager" with "5 years industry experience" (by the way, from researching the parking industry , even a valet parking outfit needs to have such a person).

The fact is this would kill AirBnB. It would make it too expensive to operate as a small host. Someone renting out their apartment to make ends meet, and very often in the process making lifelong friends with those who stay, should not in any sense be considered a hotel. It's a totally different experience for both the host and the guest.

I stayed at one of the earliest AirBnB spots, literally a "tree house" high in the santa cruz mountains in the host's backyard. It was advertised as such on the site, and was an amazing experience. We chatted for hours with the host, who told us all sorts of stories, including that a replica of her treehouse now sits at the offices of AirBnB. How is that in any way a hotel?

debacle• 13 years ago

The real issue is insurance. AirBnB is living in a vacuum in that space. I would bet less than 1% of hosts have proper coverage for subletting out their living space, and 99.99% of landlords have specific exclusions on their policies against subletting. So you have an instance where a potential loss to the insured (the landlord), the host, and the consumer is completely uninsured.

Now multiply that reality across the entirety of the AirBnB hosts in NYC, and you have a recipe for a financial nightmare.

argumentum7• 13 years ago

AirBnB does offer a $1m host guarantee.

jtbigwoo2• 13 years ago

> The issue at question is a tiny (% wise) hotel tax. In my view AirBnB is not resisting this tax for its own sake, but rather because it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators.

A small quibble: The various taxes on hotel charges in New York add up to almost 15%. If AirBnB has 15,000 people renting rooms, we could easily be talking about millions of dollars here.

argumentum7• 13 years ago

New York has never even attempted to claim that AirBnB is itself a hotel (new laws would be needed for that). They instead claim that individual hosts are violating unlicensed hotels.

olleicua• 13 years ago

This is completely unreasonable. The NSA doing this in secret is one thing but now they aren't even trying to hide it.

wahsd2• 13 years ago

This is so damn disgusting!

But it also reveals, and people should realize how much of our society is actually a facade. This is not liberty or freedom, for you to do with with your apartment or home how you wish. Next thing you know the government is going to subpoena Craigslist to hunt down sales taxes for the banged up table you sold?

This is subversion, perversion, and corruption of public resources and policy to ensure private profits and gains because corporations really don't compete in America, they simply rig a system that makes is look like competition. Our economy is fraud, just like that Western Town at Disney World is a fraud.

Next up, you have to have a tracking device in your car to make sure you pay your taxes for being a DD and they buy your food and soda in exchange.

camus2• 13 years ago

You cant beat the system, unless you have good friends or a lot of money to lobby the government.

But dont make it about liberty and freedom , that's totally relative.There is no such thing as absolute "liberty" or "freedom" ,some places are just more free than others and trust me you are lucky enough to live where you live.

This is not subversion ,this is how the system works. And you'll go with the flow eventually.

wehadfun6• 13 years ago

I own a vacation rental and list on AirBnB. AirBnB should pay the taxes. AirBnB is not a simple directory of houses/apartments/tents for rent. They are a "reseller" or maybe "re-renter" of houses/apartments/... For example you may charge $100 a night but AirBnB sells your property for like $125 a night. Is the host supposed to pay taxes on the whole $125? Really the guest is not even renting from the host. The guest is renting from AirBnB. The guest pays AirBnb not the host. When a guest pays AirBnb keeps the money until the guest arrives and pay you at their discretion. If there is a problem and the host wants some of the guest security deposit. The host has to ask AirBnb for it and AirBnb determines how much the host gets. A host can't even email the guest or get their phone number until AirBnb allows. As a host you are a supplier to AirBnb and suppliers in general do not have to deal with taxes. If you buy a coke from a gas station, the gas station is responsible for paying local taxes Not The Coca-Cola Company.

jchung2• 13 years ago

Actually Coca Cola pays taxes on its income just like you do.

But I'm interested in the broader point you're advocating for... Why do you care if AirBnB pays the taxes instead of you? Unless you think the renters are going to suddenly start paying more (unlikely), you're taking it on the chin at some point, either in the form of reduced income for you when AirBnB starts taking a cut, or in the form of reduced demand when AirBnB raises prices across the board and guest demand is decreased.

wehadfun6• 13 years ago

I said "local taxes". Sure Coke pays income taxes but they do not pay sales tax in every place where coke is sold. Reduced income when AirBnb takes a cut? They take a cut. On both sides. They reason why Airbnb should pay taxes is they are the ones actually selling. Not the host. When you buy something at a grocery store. The store charges sales tax and they are responsible for sending it to the local tax people. The supliers may have to pay income tax but sales tax is paid by the seller.

some1else• 13 years ago

You both pay taxes according to your capital gains and expenditures. Your gains are $100, AirBnB's are $25. Coca-Cola pays taxes, too.

wehadfun6• 13 years ago

You are confusing income tax with "hotel tax" and "local sales tax". For example some states charge a separate hotel tax, and some counties charge "lodging/entertainment taxes" These taxes are calculated based on the nightly rental rate charged to the customer. Not what ever amount AirBnB turned over to the host.

skolos• 13 years ago

This is not correct comparison. Since you provide services locally you should know local laws and tax code. AirBnB just provides a platform for you to provide the services, but I don't see how it is feasible for them to ensure that each their service provider follows all laws in each location.

wehadfun6• 13 years ago

How about this comparison. When/If Amazon starts paying California, Virginia, ... state sales tax, Amazon will be responsible for collecting and sending it to the municipalities. Not the publishers, authors, or manufactures of the stuff they sell. When people buy things on Amazon.com they are Amazon's customers. Not Wrox's or O'Riley's.

camus2• 13 years ago

To all the people that think Airbnb is great , why should landlords have tenants so tenants can sublet ?

landlords will end up posting offers on Airbnb directly ,that's what will happen "en masse" in the future.

And You'll need to pay the Airbnb premium to rent anything.

After all , if i'm a landlord and ask for 2000$ a month for normal tenants , i can just go on Airbnb and ask for 200 or more an night , so i only need to rent it for 10 days a month for it to be profitable...

Landlords arent stupid we'll eventually end up in that situation on a large scale.

pessimizer2• 13 years ago

I'm not sure why this isn't the top comment on any of these threads. The only place that I know of that gives tenants an absolute right to sublet is Chicago (https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/gen... see:SUBLEASES) Where this right doesn't exist, the standard tenant agreement will come to always contain a no AirBnB clause.

AirBnB will be a thing that landlords do. Property management companies are against it because it automates them out of existence. For landlords, it will be an unprecedented boon. Eventually people will be bragging about buying a 1 year lease on property like they once bragged about buying property.

This terrifies me, because I think that it will be a fairly irreversible phase change that solves the massive vacancy rate problem that we've had since the property bubble inflated. It's like German work sharing applied to housing (the vacancy rate will be spread more evenly across rental properties over time.)

vdaniuk• 13 years ago

Why does it terrify you?

wehadfun6• 13 years ago

Clearly you do not rent property. Renting on AirBnB is more complicated, expensinve, hard then your typical month to month. First of all you have to clean up between guest, re-stock soap, toilet paper, napkins,... You have to furnish the place, pay all utilities including Wifi and probably cable. I have gotten calls at 10pm because a renter could not figure out how to change input on the TV from DVD player to cable. Regular landlords don't want to deal with these types of issues and probably couldn't with out a customer support staff.

genwin• 13 years ago

It seems you have copyright infringement liability as well, when the guest pirates a movie using your equipment. Or worse problems, when the guest makes threats using your equipment.

geebee2• 13 years ago

New York and San Francisco tend to have powerful tenant protection laws. I'm kind of curious - what would the legal situation be if someone rented an apartment on airbnb and then refused to leave, insisting that he or she is now a tenant and demanding that the landlord go through standard eviction proceedings (which I believe requires valid "cause" in San Francisco)? Does anyone know if this has been litigated?

NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data

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