Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=633358

by kyro • 17 years ago

24 76 17 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

zimbabwe4• 17 years ago

I guess I'm the first person to say that yes, I did cheat, and no, I don't feel guilty.

What matters is getting the right answer. If you stop before you get the right answer, then you're responsible for that. If you take a shortcut to get the right answer, then it's not a bad thing until you get to a situation where you refuse to do what it takes to get the right answer.

Given a choice between wasting my time on meaningless schoolwork and cheating and keeping the time to myself, I'll take cheating, and if I went back I'd cheat again.

hollerith2• 17 years ago

"What matters is getting the right answer."

Oh, so it was your principled commitment to "what matters" that caused you to cheat, eh?

zimbabwe4• 17 years ago

That's a bullshit way of phrasing it. Let's stick to how I said it.

What matters is that you end up with the right thing. If you can easily get the right thing by copying somebody else, then do that. That doesn't excuse your not learning how to do it on your own, but there's no nobility to finding out the answer yourself, beyond what personal satisfaction it brings you.

I code using other people's languages and other people's plug-ins. I take visual ideas from other people's graphic designs. Then I bend them to fit my own purposes. When somebody else has solved part of the problem I want to fix, there is no honor in my repeating their work.

evilneanderthal• 17 years ago

Someone might argue that part of schoolwork is proving that you can do boring routine work. In this respect you only have the long-term incentive of graduating and there is no immediate reward.

zimbabwe4• 17 years ago

So far I have never found an instance in life where doing boring routine work was at all something I wanted to do. The boring routine work I do have to do I constantly try and figure out ways around.

ryanwaggoner4• 17 years ago

Why bother going to school if this is how you view it?

I think the problem with cheating is that it's fundamentally dishonest. It's not that you're using someone else's work to accomplish something, as we all do this every day in our jobs, it's that you're lying and presenting that work as your own.

ciupicri• 17 years ago

Not all the subjects at school suck so much, so you don't have to cheat at everything. And even if you cheat, it doesn't necessarily mean you must cheat 100%, e.g. at all questions and you could still learn something.

I don't like people who cheat a lot, at that point going to school is becoming useless indeed, but when you don't have enough freedom to choose your subjects or they are taught just to be taught, a bit of cheating eliminates a lot of headaches.

PieSquared6• 17 years ago

Why bother going to school? Because some of us are legally obliged to, and not doing so would be breaking the law.

It's dishonest, yes, but when you're in a situation where your two choices are spending time learning something on your own versus not copying a busywork homework assignment from a friend... the first stops seeming so unethical.

zaidf• 17 years ago

I did until high school. Then I realized it's too much effort for something I care too little about(my grade).

I'm curious why you'd think cheating would correlate with laziness. I think you underestimate the work involved in cheating.

I've passed on cheating on multiple occasions in middle and high school years purely out of laziness. It would usually involve some laborious homework assignment. A friend would have done it. He would loan me the notebook. And it would just sit in my bag without me ever spending time to copy it.

In middle school we had to take an Accelerated Reader test on the computer each week. I was not prepared one day. So I went to two of the three computers and deleted the shortcut to the program. With only one computer operating, my turn to take the exam never came:) They'd to call the IT people from downtown to fix the shortcuts on the two computers. Silly middle school days:)

Now days I am almost guilty of being too honest. ie. I will skip an assignment because I thought it was a waste of time, tell the professor exactly what I thought and receive biased grading for rest of the semester. (At the end of the semester, though, the professors respect you a whole lot more.)

kyro• 17 years ago

I don't think that, others in #startups do. Interestingly, those who were significantly older were making the connection between cheaters and lazy workers who would cheat out of their work.

ZitchDog2• 17 years ago

I cheated a lot in high school, a couple times in college. I don't feel guilty, but now I know the only person I cheated was myself.

PieSquared6• 17 years ago

I think it depends on the form of cheating. Cheating on anything you can do through learning - yeah, that's cheating yourself. But (in my high school at least) I've noticed that many homework assignments are pure busyword: there is no intellectual value to be gained through their completion, and all you are doing is wasting your time when in reality you could put it to a better use.

In those cases, I would not feel guilty in the least, and do not think I would be cheating myself either.

physcab• 17 years ago

You're just rationalizing. It doesn't matter how much value you place on the assignment. It only matters if you cut corners.

yters• 17 years ago

If some work isn't worthwhile, then doing it poorly won't matter in the long run. On the other hand, if it is worthwhile work, then doing it poorly is bad for you.

ZitchDog2• 17 years ago

I would have said the exact same thing at the time. As it turns out, many of the "busywork" tasks are things that you'll want to be able to do quickly, easily, and accurately as you build on your skillset.

Repetition is how you optimize your brain. Quick and accurate execution of inner-loop code is critical. The more you can optimize, the more effective of a tool your brain will be.

stavrianos• 17 years ago

Never cared enough about marks to cheat. Still don't.

From a moral perspective, cheating is bad in that it devalues the marks earned by students who didn't. This is only true if you believe that the marks are worth anything to begin with. That, and it's downright rude.

mahmud2• 17 years ago

I had too much of an ego in my abilities to believe someone else had a better answer than me. So no.

mahmud2• 17 years ago

Let me add that back in school, I immediately lost respect for anyone I caught peeking at my papers. I never hid my tests, as a matter of fact I pushed the papers forward for all to see, but it wasn't out sharing or kindness, more like contempt for anyone who would lower himself to call my work their own. I felt like I could withstand scrutiny and justify my work.

It was even better when the smart kids copied from me, specially when our eyes met and I caught them cheating: it was established right then and there who was whose bitch :-P

Two real-life problems I have had with my non-cheating principle are:

1) My inability to trust the quality of most people's work, specially if I know about the work and I'm passionate about it. I have a habit of going over people's code with an eye towards catching their "inevitable mistakes". My own mistakes pass in peace, undisturbed, of course.

2) Inability to take hints and advice. I take advice when I seek it. Unsolicited advice, specially when others are there to overhear it, or when I feel like I could have arrived at the same conclusion on my own given enough time; such advice goes unheeded. I might even deliberately make a mishap just because someone helped me mid-task.

menloparkbum• 17 years ago

What are you really saying? People who don't share your opinions about software testing probably cheated in school? Cuz that's how I'm reading your intro to this poll.

ryanwaggoner4• 17 years ago

I'm a little appalled by the number of people who apparently think cheating is fine. Is integrity so uncommon?

As I stated another comment, the problem I have with cheating is that it's dishonest, as you're passing someone else's work off as your own. It demonstrates a lack of respect for the person who did the work, the person you're doing the work for, every student who worked hard enough to do the work themselves, and yourself.

Confusion5• 17 years ago

Define 'cheating'. I've never cheated, but I voted 'it depends', because, as always, everything depends on intentions and circumstances. I can perfectly understand people saying 'this assignment/test is ridiculous. I'm not going to put any effort in it and rather copy/cheat and spend my time in a more productive way'.

Now I don't think you should copy from someone if that person objects. However, I've never worried about allowing people to copy my work: I've already invested the time and as long as it doesn't put my work in jeopardy (that was always my only requirement: don't just copy, but expend the minimal effort required to hide it), why not share? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of what is worth their time. As has been argued many times, especially at forums like HN: schools really don't know what is good for their students. Schools are 'one size fits all'. We know better (which doesn't mean that we think schools are always wrong, which doesn't mean we don't take their advice seriously, etc.)

neilc3• 17 years ago

I can perfectly understand people saying 'this assignment/test is ridiculous. I'm not going to put any effort in it and rather copy/cheat and spend my time in a more productive way'.

I can understand why someone might say that, but it would still be immoral and dishonest of them to cheat. When you take a class, you enter into a contract (often an explicit academic honesty policy) to not cheat. If you find the assignment ridiculous, then don't take the class, register your objections with the professor, or don't hand in the assignment. You can't ethically disregard the terms of a contract just because you deem them "ridiculous."

amalcon• 17 years ago

There are other classes of cheating beyond copying another's work. For example, in many of the pre-college math classes I had, looking up the answers to the odd-numbered problems in the back of the book was considered cheating. You couldn't necessarily complete a homework this way, as you had to show your work, but you could verify your own answers. While I never bothered to do this (I did fine in math at the level these started appearing anyway), I didn't care that others did.

Also, many of these classes considered it "cheating" to program your calculator to compute solutions for you. Usually, on a programmable calculator, the program would only substitute for memorizing formulas. Memorizing formulas is pointless, as if you eventually end up using one often enough, you'll memorize it anyway. Again, I never actually did this (I preferred to just learn how the formula was derived), but I occasionally helped others do it.

deno• 17 years ago

I did try to cheat. However, it's much more common thing in Poland than USA (or so I heard).

I noticed however, that whenever I've selected material for cheating and then put it on those little sheets of paper I actually learned this material in the end. So cheating was a great way to learn something! Than, by simple logic taking what I prepared wasn't beneficial, as I could be caught.

asciilifeform2• 17 years ago

In American schools (even universities), the use of cheat sheets is often officially permitted.

michaelneale• 17 years ago

Never cheated at school or university - would like to say cause I thought it was right but mostly cause the consequences of being caught multiplied by the likelyhood of being caught was greater then my risk appetite (well perhaps I did think it was just wrong at some base level as well).

I do get lazy with tests sometimes, and it does come back to bite me in the ass. Often.

timothychung• 17 years ago

To explain your proposed correlation, I think the main point is on a person's character and his way to respond to problem.

For cheating and being lazy to testing code, the common factor is the lack of pursuit to be responsible. So these behaviours can be a result from a person's character.

Another possible theory is that in response to systems that they don't like, they prefer to tricking them instead of other options such as don't care or quitting.

PostOnce• 17 years ago

Some people cheat because they're not getting an education, what they're getting is a degree.

If someone has all the skills necessary to perform a given job, but an employer will not even finish reading their resume because they don't have a BA, I see no reason not to cheat in order to expedite the degree-earning process.

If you want to work with computers for a living, and you have a political science paper due in one day, what is going to be the better use of your time in the long-term, an all-night hack session, or actually doing your politics paper?

Also, I've never cheated, and I'm theorizing, but I think that people bright enough to carry out an A-worthy cheat could get the A if they did the work, and people that can't will either get a B or get caught. So in the end, it might be sort of fair anyway.

wlievens• 17 years ago

Big hint: whatever you did in school becomes completely irrelevant. School and whatever you did there somehow ceases to be relevant when you grow up and get a job. Seriously, school is not a big thing.

I'm not talking about the skills and things you learn, these can be valuable. I'm talking about social order and customs.

enra• 17 years ago

I like to go for cinches. I like to shoot fish in a barrel. But I like to do it after the water has run out - Warren Buffet

I cheat and break rules or laws sometimes but I don't cheat other people in a way it would harm them. I also know that I'm taking risks since there might be consequences.

I have never bought that hard work or going over the highest fence would be beneficial to anyone. I like more working smart, fast or even taking shortcuts by cheating than wasting my time on something that doesn't even matter.

School is a another reality where you are rewarded by the complexity and how hard you work, not by what its the most simplest solution.

__david__• 17 years ago

Cheating in school is like cheating on a video game. All you're really doing is cheating yourself out of a challenge. That said, I've been known to cheat occasionally if the goal is to skip an annoying part of the game or a boring (but required) part of a school subject.

I've been out of school for years now and I don't think cheating on tests in school compares to anything in the "real" world. That is to say, I would never cheat employers or plagiarize code or documentation.

I guess I view school as something you do for yourself and if you really want to cheat yourself out of an education then who cares (especially since you're paying for school in the first place). I never put much stock into degrees and so I'm sure that colors my world view. I can understand that if you do think that degrees and grades actually mean anything then you might feel like cheating in school is unethical. Cheating others is a whole different story and it's a line I really don't like to cross.

pavelludiq• 17 years ago

Cheating was one of the few interesting school activities. We had to think of ways to cheat. It was like hacking. We had to monitor the teachers movement and think of ways to remain unseen and unheard while cheating. Do we arrange those that know the subject of the exam in ways in which they can help the others or do we use cheat sheets? In what circumstances was one better than the other? In which circumstances were both or neither appropriate? Cheating is an interesting technical problem and I enjoyed working on it.

ErrantX• 17 years ago

Define cheating. I fobbed off most of my Physics A-Level (the highest qualification UK schools give out) work and just read "A brief History of Time", "Turning tides: Physics in the new age" and another book I cant remember the name of and aced it.

Obviously I got accused of cheating - and it could well be argued I had an advantage over my classmates (who struggled with an inadequate text book!).

The definition is subjective: but, writing answers on your cuffs helps no one :)

mannicken• 17 years ago

No. Well, I did cheat one time in third grade. I regret that I didn't cheat more, though. It would've taken me through loads of useless bureaucratic shit and whatever I really could learn, I learned anyway.

nazgulnarsil2• 17 years ago

I'm not sure what to mark because I don't cheat on my own material but other students pay me to help them cheat.

mattdennewitz2• 17 years ago

replace "i dont cheat on my own material" with "drink" and "help them cheat" with "buy beer".

nazgulnarsil2• 17 years ago

maybe you should have used a murder example, because I don't see the problem with minors drinking on private property if their parents don't mind.

yummyfajitas• 17 years ago

I cheated once (Data Structures II), and I feel no guilt about it.

The homework: implement various data structures in C++. The professor then gave us a printed copy of a correct stack/vector/etc implementation. So the homework could properly be rephrased "type what you see on the page into the computer, then run gcc to catch typing errors."

He then threatened that he would catch us if one person transcribed the printouts and multiple people submitted the same transcription.

I split the typing work with some friends, and wrote a perl obfuscator. Suffice it to say, I learned more about programming writing the obfuscator than I did in the rest of the class.

neilk• 17 years ago

I don't think that's cheating. That's disobedience to arbitrary dictates. You didn't dodge the essential aspects of the exercise (learn what gcc does), just the accidental aspects.

That's like if a professor insisted that you use a particular brand of pen when writing the exam. Disobeying that order isn't cheating.

gtzi• 17 years ago

Maybe cheating is a leading indicator of efficiency, you get things done no matter what :)

jmonegro• 17 years ago

I once used to believe that "I cheat because I can, not because I have to". I like to think I'm a pretty smart guy, but that phrase was just a way for me to justify procasination. Nowadays, no, I don't cheat :)

unbannable• 17 years ago

No. I had a friend whose high school life was literally ruined by cheating.

He was a "pathological cheater": smart, and in the top 5 of the class by his own steam, but had a tendency to cheat on everything, even practice PSAT tests administered by the school. He cheated on an essay contest, his winning entry was published (oops!) and he was called out quite publicly when the paper published a retraction.

Rather than own up to it, he made up a bullshit story about how his story was only superficially similar. In fact, it was word-for-word identical, with the title changed.

He changed schools in order to avoid a failing grade for cheating on an exam (and mounting humiliation) to a Catholic school. He was supposedly kicked out of that school for (you guessed it) cheating.

He graduated from law school last summer.

Unomi• 17 years ago

If the journey is more important than the destination, knowing shortcuts doesn't bring you any experiences. You would want to prolong the journey more and more and avoid shortcuts altogether. I wouldn't listen to the anecdotes of a known 'adventurer' who only took shortcuts. I like to listen to somebody who has been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, not to someone who only bought the t-shirt.

Likewise, if your 'friends' from school enter the same job market and get the job you could have instead, you pitty them for cheating and even helping them. You know what you're worth and can withstand the tasks they throw at you. While cheaters don't know and don't understand the world they operate in. They probably keep on cheating....

- Unomi -

bayareaguy• 17 years ago

You should be a little more clear about what you consider cheating. I voted "no" because I never did anything clearly unethical or in violation of any rules but there were times when I had opportunities to make use of resources in ways that other people may have considered unfair.

perokreco2• 17 years ago

Of course I did. Everybody did. It is what made school fun to go to. The entire class had people specialize in different areas, for example I was in charge of CS and English, my best friend of Chemistry and so on. Then we would get together before school and copy each other assignments before class started. Therefore the entire class worked together in order for everybody to earn higher grades, pass the class and spend as little time as possible on homework. In exams we would make students good in that subject sit close to those who are not and help them out.

Poll: Were/Are you a cheater?

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