Stay-at-home dad

http://www.facebook.com/tstocky/posts/996111776858

by joebeetee • 13 years ago

303 197 13 years ago

joebeetee4• 13 years ago

There is so much food for thought in this article. Particularly liked his line "Don't worry, I'm not going to nab your kid, I already got this one."

Interesting how the author felt that people could say things to him that they wouldn't say to women in a similar situation.

pbreit3• 13 years ago

If he actually said those words, I think I'd be even more creaped out. Who jokes about kidnapping?

gmaslov• 13 years ago

Anyone but a kidnapper, I'd say.

Dewie7• 13 years ago

It also still gets under my skin when people call it "babysitting" or "daddy daycare."

It seems like a lot of people feel that dads can only be second-rate caregivers compared to moms, as if they were to take care of a toddler it would only be as an assistant or subordinate to the mother.

jnazario• 13 years ago

a lot of people? quite often it feels like everyone.

it's a stereotype reinforced by television shows, movies, commercials, etc. and it seems to sell (i'm assuming so, i figure approval boards to get these things made and shown wouldn't approve them unless it made them money).

it's a very sad statement about our society.

rabidonrails• 13 years ago

my father always says "if they're your kids, it isn't babysitting"

Dewie7• 13 years ago

Saying to a dad that he is babysitting is so demeaning. It's like saying that his investment in his own child is on the level of that teenage girl next door that babysits his child every other week because she needs the 10 bucks to buy gas.

anotherevan3• 13 years ago

My own mum pulled this one on me. We were talking on the phone and she could hear my daughter playing in the background. As one point it dawned on her that she could not hear my wife.

  "Is Susan out?"
  "Yeah she's gone out to [I forget what]."
  "So you're home babysitting?"
  "No, it's just Alice here, no one else."
  "???"

In an extremely polite but pointed way, I informed her that I was her father, not her babysitter. She never made that mistake again.

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

I remember when I was a very young dad, and 15 minutes with my very young son was torture. I see myself in much of what he tells. Much of it by imagining the now dad of a 10yo as a dad of 4 months old son.

But there's one thing I can tell for sure. A father can not replace a mother. I wouldn't take offense if a woman asked me why isn't my wife taking care of the child. In the past 10 years there were countless cases where my wife handled things entirely differently then myself. Specially the emotionally relevant things, which are extremely important at early stages of child development.

There is no gender equality when it comes to what a child needs. A child needs the smile of a mother as much as they need the smile of a father. And one can not replace the other.

da02• 13 years ago

Do you have an example of how she handled it differently? (Other than the emotional sitations.) I'm always curious of how others solve situations in a different (ie better) way than I could.

joebeetee4• 13 years ago

I'm always surprised at how much more patient my wife is with our son than I am. She will constantly engage with him and play with him for much longer than I am able to.

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

She was more empathic with our son. When he'd say he doesn't want to walk up the stairs be himself cause his feet hurt him, for instance. I'd tend to rationalize, and think that he's just pretending to be carried by one of us.

But really, the non-emotional situations don't matter that much. They are essential for the parent-child bound and their emotional development. Self-confidence and ability the empathize later in life will crucially depend on how these cases are handled.

Numberwang• 13 years ago

Do you have a good list of what harm LGBT parents are causing children, preferably with references?

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

I don't think there's clear definition of what "harm" means, and for sure studies themselves can are are and will be hotly debated.

spamizbad2• 13 years ago

There is no gender equality when it comes to what a child needs. A child needs the smile of a mother as much as they need the smile of a father. And one can not replace the other.

Isn't this essentially the argument against gay adoption and gay parenting in general? Because studies show their kids aren't adversely affected by this.

Source: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/tick-for-samesex-families-...

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

Maybe, but that was not my intention.

I am aware of the controversy and of the studies on the matter. Pro or contra.

Dewie7• 13 years ago

Shouldn't gay couples raise children?

jellicle• 13 years ago

It's sad that the top HN comment on this story is sexist bullshit. But I guess not unexpected. But sad.

withad4• 13 years ago

Sexist and implicitly homophobic. This community really depresses me sometimes.

tokenadult3• 13 years ago

I suppose you are referring to the parent comment to your comment (but maybe not). As always, the solution to such a problem is to upvote a better comment, or perhaps writing the better commment for the same comment level yourself.

Chris2048• 13 years ago

You could reply to it, countering anything that you believe to be false.

qznc4• 13 years ago

So far, I have to disagree. While my wife handles some situations better than me, there are also scenarios, where I can shine. My son is 1.5 years, maybe it will change in the coming years.

I believe, mothers usually get a bonding advantage through breast-feeding. That did not work out in our case, so bottle-feeding it was and that can be done by men as well.

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

There are most certainly cases where I do better. But that only happened as our son grew older.

38252• 13 years ago

There is no gender equality when it comes to what a child needs. A child needs the smile of a mother as much as they need the smile of a father. And one can not replace the other.

There is such a heavy statement that I cannot begin to explain how wrong it is. Are you saying that a single parent cannot raise a child on her (or his) own? In the absence of any scientific evidence in your support, I'd say you are absolutely and terribly wrong. How can you say "a father cannot replace a mother"? I don't mind you not taking offense. I don't mind your assertion that your wife is a better parent than you are. However, it remains at best anecdotal. Your leap of faith from one example to a broad generalization that irreparably harms not only women but single fathers and same-sex couples in one broad swath is very disturbing. I hope you realize that.

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

If you think a single mother raising children is happy, than we don't share the same definition of happiness.

I was raised by a responsible woman married with a very irresponsible man.

noblethrasher• 13 years ago

To the degree that breastfeeding might be non-negligbly beneficial[1], sex-inequality with respect to child rearing is manifest.

[1] http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2013/06/breastfeeding

narwally• 13 years ago

Here is my take on what he was saying. If a child has a mother and father(or mom&mom/dad&dad, there are always going to be things that one parent is better capable of handling than the other. I saw his view to align with the phrase "it take a village to raise a child", meaning that kids have many and varying needs that are best fulfilled by a group of people that love them.

I think it's certainty true that a single parent can raise a child just as well as a multi parent household, but that doesn't mean that a child doesn't also benefit from love and care from others. I think the point is that whoever are the important adults in a child's life, each of them provide benefits that others aren't as well suited for. A mom isn't a drop in replacement for a dad, a grandmother isn't a replacement for an aunt, and the next door neighbor that might as well be a child's second mom isn't a replacement for the child's biological mother.

I think the point was that gender equality isn't at all important to a child or it's needs, so we should quit making it one at all.

enraged_camel3• 13 years ago

>In the past 10 years there were countless cases where my wife handled things entirely differently then myself. Specially the emotionally relevant things, which are extremely important at early stages of child development.

This is more about your own inability to properly handle those situations requiring emotional involvement than a commentary on what fathers in general can or cannot provide. You are, after all, only one person.

I respect your experiences and commend you for sharing them, but at the end of the day you are basing your opinions on (your own) anecdote and passing judgment on all the other fathers out there. This is unfair and sexist and you should not do it.

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

Some opinions have fancy [numbers] after, other don't. They should be taken as such. Call me sexist if you will.

k-mcgrady2• 13 years ago

> "There is no gender equality when it comes to what a child needs. A child needs the smile of a mother as much as they need the smile of a father. And one can not replace the other."

I kind of get what you mean but I don't think you've expressed it properly. I think the real important thing is that having multiple parental figures is a good thing. In some families the mother can provide better emotional support and the father brings things to the relationship the mother doesn't. If the parents are homosexual they can still both bring different things to the parent/child relationship which complement each other. Children of single parents often have Aunts/Uncles that care for them and are as much a part of their life as a parent.

Basically having multiple parental figures who's natural roles complement each other is best.

NB: I'm not a parent so I could be completely wrong.

cristianpascu10• 13 years ago

I grew up with an absent father. I don't think a second mother would have replaced him. That's why I am skeptic about homosexual parents. At the price of my few karma points. :)

WalterSear• 13 years ago

This is so narrow minded, sexist and untrue, it burns.

jasonlotito8• 13 years ago

It sounds to be like you are confusing your personal failings with the traits of all men. Considering your history, it's not a real surprise. But do not continue to make the mistake that just because it's true for you, it's must be true for everyone.

That's a fairly ignorant mistake to make.

spamizbad2• 13 years ago

His experience mirrors closely with my friend, who is a stay-at-home dad. All the crap this guy puts up with strangers is pretty prevalent - my friend's experienced the same, and worse, as he's been doing it longer.

furyofantares• 13 years ago

I'm amazed that this comes from a such a short absence. I kept having to double check that I hadn't misread it.

rudog• 13 years ago

"Don't worry, I'm not going to nab your kid, I already got this one."

Is this common place? As of a father of twins; I regularly take my kids to the park and either I'm oblivious to these looks or I am too busy playing zone defense on two almost 3 year olds that I don't even notice.

stevewilber• 13 years ago

As a work-from-home dad with a very flexible schedule, I spend quite a bit of time at the park during work hours. My experience is closer to yours than most others in this thread. I find the moms/nannies/grandparents quite welcoming and friendly. Occasionally a topic of conversation will come up that may be a bit awkward, but otherwise I don't feel that I'm treated much differently. I certainly have never perceived that anyone felt threatened by my presence.

I'm not sure what would account for the difference. I live just a few miles from FB headquarters and am in the same demographic as OP.

mathrawka• 13 years ago

I'm in the same situation... gotta love doing the bulk of your work before 8am or after 8pm (sometimes both in the same day) ;)

may be a bit awkward

Usually more than a bit awkward as they talk about trying to have more kids or women hygiene... that is when I just pretend my daughter needs some assistance and I walk off to "help" her.

techboots7• 13 years ago

Looks like FB jumped the shark if they're employing guys who leave for 4 months, or gals like Sheryl Sandberg who leaves work 5pm every day.

I get it - yes, it's nice and wonderful. But... Frankly, I wouldn't want to work with coworkers like this. Entrepreneurs don't make silly justifications like this -- only employees play this political game. And quite frankly, I wouldn't put up with actions like this - I'd quit in a heartbeat, or tone down my work time as well to match. Hey, just because I don't have a kid, doesn't mean I shouldn't get time off - why punish me for that. Not fair. I'll take my time off to work on my own projects.

If you have a family, it may just be better to sit out of the game for a while rather than dragging the work quality of everyone else around you down.

dantheman• 13 years ago

Facebook is a large successful company, life is more important, and it's not like a few extra hours or days are going to have a huge impact.

marquis2• 13 years ago

I hope this comment stays online for the remainder of your life, so when you have a family you love and you see how beneficial it would be if you had more time and home as your children grow, you look back here and feel just a little sheepish. Any company that truly respects people understands that taking a few months of work, or only working part time, does not in any way, at all, degrade the quality of the work. I see this first hand every day and I'm proud to support my coworkers and be supported.

joebeetee4• 13 years ago

I hope it stays online purely for the comedic gold. Seriously, "techboots" calling out Sheryl Sandberg and Facebook and giving advice for entrepreneurs? "Tone down my work and time as well to match"? Good stuff.

techboots7• 13 years ago

Fully agree, life & family is more important. I think if I really wanted to spend more time with my family, I'd just quit the job rather than trying to play the benefits system to get 4 months of paid leave.

Families get in the way of work. It's just that simple. There's less time to pull all-nighters. Once a company starts encouraging "family people," it becomes a certain type of place. It's a type of place that doesn't really vibe well with entrepreneur-types or young single guys perhaps... but it may be the perfect sort of place for family types. Like Microsoft or Cisco. Facebook is becoming like that. It's not necessarily bad for everyone.

dogonwheels2• 13 years ago

'I get it'. No. You really don't.

techboots7• 13 years ago

Ok. Let's do this.

Let's form a company. We're co-founders, okay?

Now. I'm going to have a kid, take 4 months off, and leave work 5pm everyday. How do you feel?

k-mcgrady2• 13 years ago

If you work for a company you ARE an employee, not an entrepreneur. Facebook is a company. Like most other companies employees most likely work a standard schedule (9-5).

> "Hey, just because I don't have a kid, doesn't mean I shouldn't get time off - why punish me for that."

It's a benefit that comes with the job which you would also be entitled to. You have a kid, you get time off. Would you be complaining if someone else was getting more value out of the company health insurance plan than you because they were ill more often?

leothekim2• 13 years ago

You think your coworkers drag you down? You think you're punished for not having kids? You're comparing having children to entrepreneurship? If you really want to know what's wrong in the work place, you need to take a good long look in the mirror.

techboots7• 13 years ago

Yes. Coworkers definitely drag you down - especially those who game the benefits system or who play politics. If you don't see this, wake up and look around your cubicle.

And yes, if having a kid grants you 4 months of paid leave... it will definitely feel like punishment for the rest of the single guys stuck in the office. I have a dog and cat I need to take care of. If you get to leave to take care of your kid, I should get to leave to take care of my pets.

qznc4• 13 years ago

I do not understand you.

Is "entrepreneurs" the new "real men" for you? Employees who leave at 5pm are just "weaklings"?

You want entrepreneurs as coworkers? By definition you can only have one as partner.

How is it unfair? You want sabbaticals for everybody? That I would understand and support.

How are his coworkers punished? How is it "dragging the work quality of everyone else around"?

Isn't "sit out of the game" exactly what he did with his paternal leave?

jasonlotito8• 13 years ago

Hey, just because I don't have a kid, doesn't mean I shouldn't get time off - why punish me for that. Not fair. I'll take my time off to work on my own projects.

Go ahead? Who is stopping you?

In fact, if you aren't doing this, you are a worse entrepreneur by far. It's been proven, time and time again, that you need to take time off. You need to step away. You need to leave work.

If you aren't doing this, you're the one dragging the work quality of everyone else around you.

Tycho• 13 years ago

They would probably be relieved if you kept the same hours they did. If you don't have family to go home to you have a competitive advantage in the work place over those who do, as there is probably nothing that needs to take priority over your work.

waylandsmithers• 13 years ago

>Hey, just because I don't have a kid, doesn't mean I shouldn't get time off - why punish me for that. Not fair.

I think the main message we can learn from this comment (which I think is mostly written in jest in playing devil's advocate) is: You worry about you, and only you. Yeah, maybe it's annoying that smokers can take a break every few hours to go hang out outside, and you get "punished" for not being a smoker. Everyone's situation is different. Mind your own god damn business.

djt• 13 years ago

HN, please dont feed the trolls.

callmeed• 13 years ago

My 3 youngest were born within the span of 4 years. Any time I'm out with all 3, someone usually says "boy, you've got your hands full!" ... it's odd because (a) I find it quite easy to manage them and (b) no one has ever said that to my wife even though she gets "frazzled" (for lack of a better term) by them easier than I do.

Pxtl2• 13 years ago

Ditto. Doubly ironic since my use of a ring sling means my hands are, in fact, free.

qznc4• 13 years ago

Odd that stay-at-home women label themselves as "not working". I often try to convince my wife and others to proudly answer "mother" when asked for their work. It might not get payed, but it surely is a lot of work.

autodidakto• 13 years ago

I think "homemaker" is a dignified, gender neutral term. But for subversive fun, I like the title "househusband".

anotherevan3• 13 years ago

I like to riff on the old Bella Abzug quote and say I prefer the word homemaker because househusband implies that there may be a husband someplace else.

I usually go with "primary parent." Speaking of which, it has been surprisingly hard to get the school to list me as the first person to contact instead of my wife since I became the primary.

cheald3• 13 years ago

My wife struggles with feeling like she's "not working" because she's a homemaker. I point out that if she was working at a job outside of the home, we'd have to pay someone else to do what she does, and we'd pay awfully handsomely for it. That seems to help her put it in perspective.

jasonlotito8• 13 years ago

Well, that label is using the word working to mean employed. Same when people say they are "out of work." That doesn't mean they aren't doing work. I don't find it derogatory nor incorrect.

yaddayadda• 13 years ago

My first day of school (early 70's) the teacher asked something along the lines of "What do your parents do?". When I got home that afternoon my mom (a stay-at-home mom) asked about my first day of school, and I told her about that question. Of course she wanted to know what my answer was. For the 40 years since, I've suffered frequently for saying that she didn't work. ;)

jamesjguthrie• 13 years ago

My mum always told me to tell people she was a 'domestic engineer' lol

fredrikcarno• 13 years ago

My twin boys are now 10 month and me and my wife decided that staying home both of us for a year to give them a good start was a good idea. It was, and i can really recommend people doing the same even if it means having to make tough decisions like changing jobs and not buying that new car

Have a great day

Best Fredrik

networked• 13 years ago

One thing we as a society owe to a stay-at-home dad is, out of all things, cyberpunk. William Gibson famously found his interest in science fiction renewed and began to write while staying at home with his first child.

sampo• 13 years ago

Yeah, Wikipedia quotes:

''In 1977, facing first-time parenthood and an absolute lack of enthusiasm for anything like "career," I found myself dusting off my twelve-year-old's interest in science fiction.'' —William Gibson, "Since 1948"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Gibson

enraged_camel3• 13 years ago

The part about being viewed suspiciously at the playground was particularly awful.

Why is it that we as a society are so fucking fearful? We have an irrational fear of communists, socialists, terrorists, serial killers, sex offenders, and of course, child molesters and abductors. Everyone thinks that there is someone out there who is out to hurt them and their family. Like, that is the default assumption, and people's subsequent behaviors (such as pulling their kid closer) is based on it.

A non-parent man sitting at a playground bench and reading his paper is very, very likely to get the cops called on him, even though he's on public property. Is this right?

toyg• 13 years ago

"News" media.

cheald3• 13 years ago

Speaking as a dad, I hate taking my boys to the playground for the same reason. Moms see "man unaccompanied by woman, must be a predator" - I make a big show out of interacting with my boys and obviously being their father, but it's really grating that it's even necessary at all.

As to the culture of fear, I blame local news. It's wall-to-wall with alternating RAPISTS EVERYWHERE and LOOKIT THE CUTE PUPPIES, because those are the only stories that can compete with other news media. Telling people that they should be terrified (your neighbor is probably a child molester! Full story at 10!) is an extremely powerful tool, and people eat it up.

As a parent, I can understand those moms' reactions, even if I don't condone them. My kids are the most precious thing in the world to me, and I would rather err on the side of caution than ever let something truly traumatic happen to them. But, I think there's a line between being vigilant and being paralyzed in fear because someone with a penis is within 200 yards of your kid.

adrianbye8• 13 years ago

this doesn't happen in non feminist countries (ie usually 3rd world).

jasonlotito8• 13 years ago

I make a big show out of interacting with my boys and obviously being their father, but it's really grating that it's even necessary at all.

I wanted to disagree with you, but when I read that, I realized that I do the same thing. And as much as I want to play with my boys, I'm also consciously doing it for the reasons you mentioned.

I also realize that my interaction with other children is tempered by the realities that I'm a guy. And those thoughts are always lurking there.

jemfinch2• 13 years ago

I take my boys to the playground most days when I pick them up after work: my wife works later than I do, and it gives us something entertaining to burn the time until she gets home. I usually have my DSLR out with some sort of "stalker" lens (e.g. a 70-200mm[0]). If my boys want to play with me, I play--if they don't, I wander around and keep an eye from a distance. If someone else's kid needs pushed on a swing and I'm not busy, I give pushes. If someone else's kid needs help off the monkey bars, I help them down. I've never once felt like I'm under a microscope or anyone thinks "man unaccompanied by woman, must be a predator."

1. The feeling you have could be illusory. It's very possible that moms really aren't thinking that, and you're just a little paranoid. I know the feeling you have, because I had it at first as well, but I think it's seriously overblown and largely unjustified. Until someone actually tells me to get away from their kid--I'd be happy to oblige, of course--I'm reject those feelings for lack of supporting evidence.

2. I live in California--maybe that makes a difference.

3. I consistently go to the same park at around the same time. My wife once took the boys to the park on a day I needed to stay late at work and people came up to her and said, "I recognize your boys, but I don't think I've seen you with them before, you must be their mom." I don't know a single parent there by name, but they know my face and they see me parenting my boys on a regular basis.

The point I'm making is that you should try not hate taking your boys to the playground, and the best way to become comfortable with it is to take them more often and involve yourself in the ad hoc community that forms at the playground. You have nothing to worry about, and the more you go, the more you'll see that your concerns are unwarranted.

[0] Obligatory pictures of my awesome boys: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jemfinch/sets/72157634058745609...

specialist• 13 years ago

Speaking as a dad, I hate taking my boys to the playground for the same reason.

As a single dad, I never experienced that weirdness.

It might be a type thing. Kids, dogs, and moms love me. (But not ex-wives.)

saraid2162• 13 years ago

Our society is built to promote fear. We're heavily, heavily individualistic and isolationist. Our cultural prime directive is, "Never again!"

lazyjones2• 13 years ago

I don't think it's society, especially when it's a society in a country that traditionally values freedom and individuals' rights. What is behind this new culture of fear is politics: fear is great for manipulating the masses, most effective when those who promote it can present themselves as a solution.

gexla• 13 years ago

Think that's bad in a Western country? Try being a white guy taking your Filipina girlfriend's daughter to school or anywhere else. You're a white guy with a little girl in the country which is supposedly a destination for pedophiles.

I think it's all in his head though. He is probably projecting his fears of what people think about him. And why would you care what parents at a playground think of you anyways?

coldtea6• 13 years ago

You're a white guy with a little girl in the country which is supposedly a destination for pedophiles.

Well, not exactly "supposedly". Sick bastards from Europe and other western places come to such countries in droves.

At least those Philippines are suspicious based on actual experience.

dquail• 13 years ago

Am I the only dad out there that constantly takes my daughter to the park / science center / library alone ... and doesn't feel the least bit weird about it? In 3 years I've received nothing but smiles and conversation for doing this. Maybe it's a Canadian thing ...

eitally• 13 years ago

I live in North Carolina (a well-to-do suburban city) and have had exactly the same experience as you. In fact, my experience has been that quite a percentage of the moms appreciate being able to chat with a dad for a change.

kbenson• 13 years ago

I was thinking the same thing, then I realized while I may not feel the moms at the park are suspicious of me, I am more ware of my actions while there, and may even go so far as to say something out loud to make it clear I have a child present (for example, call out to my son or daughter from where I am).

The truth is, while they may not show any signs of being wary of me, I feel the need to assuage any concerns they might have, as if the fault is somehow mine, just by being male and present.

I'm not sure I've ever really examined it deeply before. it's eye-opening, to say the least.

tnorthcutt• 13 years ago

I live in a medium sized city in Texas (~200k metro area), and I've never experienced this either.

KevinEldon• 13 years ago

No, you're not alone. I have three boys and I don't get negative looks when I take them out. I live in the Southeastern US.

Angostura• 13 years ago

Same in the London (UK), never had a problem. Or perhaps I'm just oblivious.

coldtea6• 13 years ago

Why is it that we as a society are so fucking fearful? We have an irrational fear of communists, socialists, terrorists, serial killers, sex offenders, and of course, child molesters and abductors.

1) Because due to egotism, greed and lack of communal values, we have fucked up normal operation of society, and they are indeed are more prevalent than they were.

2) Because of watching them all the time in "entertainment", thus creating the impression that they are even more than the already too many that they are.

3) Because it's a good racket in order to sell "protection", a trillion dollar business, from politicians passing all the more extreme laws, to surveillance, to arms business, etc.

4) Because people themselves have stiffened up and treat other people like enemies even in casual urban situations, and treat their kids like they're prisoners for their own "safety".

threeseed• 13 years ago

Do yourself a favour and take a cold shower or perhaps seek help.

Because the sheer volume of crazy, conspiracy theories in your post is not normal.

pbreit3• 13 years ago

In San Francisco, the most prominent sign at playgrounds is "Adults must be accompanied by children".

sliverstorm2• 13 years ago

Why is it that we as a society are so fucking fearful?

If you ask me? Because we are hard-wired for fear. Ten thousand years ago, it kept you alive. Today, there is not much left to fear- but we are built to fear, so we find something to fear.

rntksi• 13 years ago

the fear of a pedophile going to kidnap/abduct/molest your kids doesn't happen in other societies today though, so there must be some influence from the differing media, I'm sure.

It doesn't make much sense in the world I live in (Asian country).

joebeetee4• 13 years ago

Whilst I appreciate the discussion points around gender/sexism, I personally have felt more discrimination from the kids / no kids situation, on more than one occasion.

I recently interviewed at a large company and did very well on all the questions, connected with the interviewers, had long chats with the recruiter, etc - but didn't get the job. I suspect one of the reasons I didn't get the job was the fact that I mentioned my wife/kid. The team that I interviewed for were all fairly young (so am I) but I think the kid thing could've thrown them off.

This may just be an issue at and job level that I am applying at and I'm very prepared for the fact that it may have been because I didn't do as well as I thought, but I have no idea what else it could've been. Would be great to know if anyone else has ever felt this.

avalaunch3• 13 years ago

Ripped directly from a rejection letter I received:

"I think instead of making a more detailed offer, I should consider certain facts.

For starters, you have a family and that'll be the driving force behind all your decisions. Secondly, you will not be able to be here in the program with me. Ideally, I want someone who could be here though not necessary. More importantly, it's the family situation I consider. I've worked developers before with family and the company died largely because of that. I don't want to say that'll happen but I worry.

This other candidate is like me. No responsibilities except {COMPANY NAME}. That makes life less complicated. Based on this - nothing to do with skills - it's best that him and I work together. "

The program was one of the startup accelerators (not YC). He was right that my family would have been the driving force behind all my decisions. He was wrong in thinking that's a bad thing. I can't imagine a bigger motivator than my family. When you have kids, failure just isn't an option.

tokenadult3• 13 years ago

You received a rejection letter that basically lists illegal reasons (in most states I'm aware of) for rejecting you. You were lucky not to get that job, as the boss is clueless about the legal responsibilities of hiring supervisors. You have a basis for a lawsuit there, if you need the money or want to make a point. If you are not litigious (I am not litigious either, so I respect anyone's decision to decline to exercise legal rights), you at least there have tangible evidence that there is some better employer in the world whom you would be better off working for. Good luck in your career. Good on you to think about your family responsibilities while participating in the competitive world of work.

el_fuser2• 13 years ago

Oh yeah, definitely. I went deep into interviews with a big oil company, and when it came time to sit down with the Sr. managers, they did not like my philosophy on overtime at all (I have a family I like to see on the weekdays... Overtime is sometimes necessary, but if it's SOP then there's a problem).

lotharbot3• 13 years ago

I identify very strongly with this.

I became a stay-at-home dad when my son was born 3.5 years ago, by choice, because parenting is what I want to do with my life. My wife wanted a technical career, and went back to work as soon as she was able. More recently, my sister (a single mom) and her little boy moved in with us. My sister works at the school down the street, and has a lot of other out-of-the-home commitments. Both my son and my nephew were in school for half of the day this last year, which meant I watched both of them every afternoon and many evenings, and was on call whenever there was a problem at school (both are special needs kids.)

Some of the challenges I've seen:

- I dress like a stay-at-home dad, complete with scraggly beard and sweatpants (no sense in getting peanut butter, pee, and play-doh on nice clothes!) When I'm out at the store without the kids, people look at me like I'm a predator. When I take a kid or two with me, they look at me like I'm a saint, much moreso than the moms who have kids with them. [EDIT: when I lived in small-town Utah for a while, taking a kid to the store got mixed reactions, with some thinking I was a saint and others thinking there was something wrong with me. In other areas, the reaction was almost uniformly "saint".]

- My grandfather grew up in an era of man works - woman does childcare. He's constantly asking me when I'm getting a job, and doesn't understand when I say "this is my job".

- I actually will be working outside the home, in a school, during the coming school year. A number of people have expressed sentiments along the lines of "good for you, glad you're finally doing something with your life", as if my son raised himself and I had nothing to do with it.

- I'm constantly hearing about support groups for parents, and they almost always have "mom" somewhere in the name. Some of them will say that dads are welcome too, but it's still awkward. The only real support group I have was accidental - a bunch of people from church were all getting together, and then everyone quit except for me and a few moms and our preschoolers.

el_fuser2• 13 years ago

I sympathize, brother.

My most irksome comments were "So... Giving mom the day off?" whenever someone would see me with my kids.

The most egregious thing to happen, was being kicked off of the local meetup for playdates... I assume I was approved to join the group because my first name is gender neutral.

Sometime between posting my profile pic (which included my kids) and attending my first meetup, I was removed from the group.

lotharbot3• 13 years ago

I should amend my previous post to note that Hacker News has provided a bit of support. There are a surprising number of stay-at-home dads here, and being able to converse with people who both understand my situation and have some technical chops is really refreshing.

tokenadult3• 13 years ago

It was way back in 1992 that I radically reshaped my career plans, coincident with the birth of my first son (who, gratifyingly, is now grown up and supporting himself as a hacker for a startup). I read the comments here, read the fine article, and still don't completely grok that I have had much the same experience without as much surrounding cultural baggage. Predominantly "stay-at-home" (a better term might be "near young children") fathers have always been rare, yes, but they have been around for a long time. I have certainly always been able to go to public parks with my children (the first three of whom were boys) or to the library or other places with them.

I haven't heard a lot of the kinds of nasty comments that the author of this interesting submitted article appears to have heard all too often. For me, since we had children, it has been important to spend a lot of time with my children while they grow up. They are only young once each. Way back in the early 1970s, I thought, evidently overoptimistically, that women's liberation would be a force to make it possible for dads to spend more time with their children if the dads so chose. Maybe that doesn't happen as a matter of social reality everywhere, but that is the choice I made, and I'm not looking back. All of my children, the three boys and the one girl, are already thinking ahead about what kind of lifestyle trade-offs they will work out with their spouses when, as they hope, they have children of their own.

One cannot emphasize the author's point too much that taking care of young children is a lot of work that demands constant vigilance. Authors from the women's liberation perspective used to argue that that is one of the best reasons to hire former homemakers as they return to the outside-the-home paid labor force--it takes strong personal organization skills to take care of young children. I don't know if that's what big company employers really think, but it sure makes sense to me.

To be clear for onlookers new to my posts here, we are a homeschooling family, so the high parental involvement with children (again, not "stay at home" but "out and about with the children") has continued in our family even though our youngest child is above typical school-going age. We like this lifestyle, because we like what it appears to be doing for our children. There are trade-offs involved in any lifestyle choice that relates both to family and to work responsibilities, but there is plenty of time for working in anyone's day, and a lot of good memories that can be built up from quality family time.

Domenic_S2• 13 years ago

Thanks for this. My wife stays home to take care of our newborn, we're strongly considering homeschooling, and it sometimes feels like a very lonely place out here in mega-career-driven SV.

IzzyMurad• 13 years ago

being constantly alert

A good or a retarded dad? I am not sure. What trouble a 0-4 month old baby could get into if you put him in a place where he could not fall?

jpatokal• 13 years ago

to run toward me screaming with excitement after I'd been away for awhile

Hint: That's not a 0-4 month-old child... and that's because dad took his four months off after mom had returned to work.

Domenic_S2• 13 years ago

I was confused myself, to be honest. Eventually worked it out that this was later in the kid's life (who goes to a playground with a 0-4 mo old?), but it was a little confusing.

Tichy6• 13 years ago

I agree with his experiences, and there would be more to add. For example our baby-friend families usually were connected via my wife (from birth preparation classes for example), so it was a bit harder/more awkward for me to call them up to hang out so that our kids could play together. That's not active discrimination, just stuff that happens.

I wanted to throw some other thought to HN: I've come to the conclusion that we won't see a big surge in "stay-at-home-daddying". I have nothing against it, but ultimately I think the rationale would be "why would I pay my babysitter half of my salary" (which is what a stay at home dad is getting)? It seems to me a mother still has a bigger claim to her children because she invested much more physically, so society will deem it more acceptable if she does the stay-at-home thing, getting paid more than a mere babysitter.

Or will it become feasible in the future to speculate on becoming a stay-at-home dad? For example (extreme to make a point) instead of taking on another career, take classes in cooking and home decoration in the expectation to one day take care of a home? It seems very unlikely to me, although of course there will be (and already are) lots of women who have and want interesting careers. But would they go forth and marry a guy with no skills but home honing? Please spare me the sexism comments, I want to think rationally about this. (I personally don't care who stays at home). The point is that it is very viable to speculate on becoming a stay at home mother imo.

mtrimpe• 13 years ago

I forgot which country it was but one of the Nordic countries tried hard to get parental leave taken and in the end they had to make 2 of 6 months of (fully paid) leave exclusively for the father.

Once they did that and the family was actually leaving paid leave on the table otherwise, fathers are now nearing 40% of birth leave.

Tichy6• 13 years ago

Granted, I wasn't even thinking about the paid paternity leave. Obviously if the state pays for it, the thought "how much am I willing to pay my babysitter" is not a factor. It's actually fascinating that despite full pay a lot of dads apparently prefer to stay at work? I can only assume that they worry about a negative impact to their career in the long run (ie employer doesn't think they are loyal enough to promote them)?

shirro• 13 years ago

Women are graduating in higher numbers and getting better positions. My wife has a permanent secure job so I made the practical decision to be home dad 5 years ago. It is a huge readjustment for anyone not used to looking after kids regardless of their chromosomes. Junior primary and preschool teachers (universally women) and women at playgroup are very accepting. My kids probably miss out a bit on the social activities mums seem to plan with each other but they get to kick a football with dad and dig holes in the back yard. I take my youngest to the park to play in the playground nearly every day. Perhaps I am just thick-skinned but I don't notice being treated any differently and I see plenty of other dad spending time with their kids.

The only time I felt I got the predator treatment was when we lost our escape artist kid in a big store and I found him at about the same time as one of the staff members and she snatched him from me and handed him over to his mum. I think that was just good training rather than a reaction to my beardiness. His mum had reported him missing while I went and found him so the staff member had no idea who I was.

anotherevan3• 13 years ago

I've been doing the primary parent thing for about 16 months now. My story is probably a bit different in that I've started it much later in my children's lives than all the any other articles I read.

Basically I worked full time and my wife worked part time for the first 12 years. She had been wanting to go back to work full time, and we had done a test run when she covered someone on maternity leave for six months, but both of us full time just wasn't working and everyone was miserable by the end of it.

Then in 2011 an opportunity came up for me to work part time, mostly from home, and we decided to swap and give things a go. So I didn't start with infants, but with a 12 and 10 year old. It's been interesting so far.

Pxtl2• 13 years ago

Stay-at-home dad fist-bump. Here in Ontario, parents have the right to split their parental leave. We did it the traditional way for the first two... for round three, we split it 60/40, and I got the big side.

I wouldn't trade this for the world. My kids are juggernauts of exhausting destruction, but I knew this was my only chance to get this kind of extended time with them and I wanted it.

One thing is that the only sentiment I agree with is the frustrating low expectations. I'm not superdad, I'm regularparent. The patronizing "you're such a great husband" thing constantly makes me cringe. I'm not even good at this - I shout at the kids more than I should, and when I get overwhelmed I just bury my head in my phone and read Facebook and HN and ignore whatever they're destroying.

But otherwise? Maybe it's Canada, maybe it's that I live in a university neighborhood, maybe I'm just that awesome, Idunno... The local moms have accepted me as one of their own while we bitch about homework. I don't get suspicious looks at the playground, and I'm as scruffy as the next geek (sweat pants are unacceptable though, have some pride, man).

But then again, maybe I'm just oblivious. I know my wife has gotten some... unfortunate questions and comments about going back to work with a 5-month-old baby, and that's not cool.

edit: I think I may have my wires crossed between whether I'm replying to the FB post or to one of the other commenters. Sweat pants was not in TFA.

lotharbot3• 13 years ago

Sweat pants was me. I'm also scruffier than most geeks. And on the autism spectrum, and therefore have more awkward mannerisms and social habits than most geeks. None of which are really exactly the point.

I've seen other dads who are considerably less awkward in the same situation in the grocery store or at the park. Maybe it's different where you live, but here there's an expectation that men who aren't at work during the day are highly likely to be predators, or druggies, or something else unsavory. It doesn't seem to cross peoples' minds that a guy my age at the store at 11 am on a Tuesday could be just a normal dude who takes care of his own kids most of the time. Unless we have a kid with us, in which case we're clearly super-dad.

golemmiprague• 13 years ago

Honestly, I got no clue what you all are talking about. Never had problems or felt weird looks in the play ground, never got compliments for changing nappies or anything like that. I think most people are used to dads taking care of kids these days, and I am not even living in some inner city sophisticated place.

tigroferoce2• 13 years ago

I envy you Tom. As a working-(too-much)-father, I work more than I see my kids and I feel like I'm losing something big.

As others I radically reshapes my carrer when my first daughter was born leaving unsafe research field for the safer and higher paid industry. While I'm pretty OK where I work now, I miss so much the freedom in terms of working hours and time tables. I'd like to find a job where I could spend more time with my kids, even at the price of a lower wage.

Best and good luck for you coming back to work (BTW, the next months will be WAY more physically exhausting).

crasshopper• 13 years ago

The author was astute enough to see his difficulties as a microcosm of what minorities regularly experience. That seems to have been lost in the HN commentary.

Stay-at-home dad

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