I have a great idea for a webapp, but hardly any programming knowledge. What should i do?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=58915

by thehigherlife • 19 years ago

32 101 19 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

aston• 19 years ago

Well, you should find someone to execute on it. A good first step would be posting it somewhere where hackers are known to roam so that you can get feedback and find potential partners. Like here, for example.

thehigherlife8• 19 years ago

It's hard, because you don't want to just let you plan out there in the open and have someone take it right out from under you.

queensnake• 19 years ago

Indeed. Google for 'Non-disclosure Agreements'. But, probably you're better off learning to code, even if you do get a partner. And I agree that Python is a good language to start with.

anamax2• 19 years ago

Very few good ideas are actually stolen. Why is yours potentially one of the exceptions?

henning4• 19 years ago

Do you really think no one has ever thought of what you have in mind?

You could remind us every day about what you're doing and probably no one will care. That's part of the challenge of running a company.

kyro3• 19 years ago

If you're not planning on paying, and want to create a team, you'd better learn how to program. I was in your same position several months ago. I tried looking for programmers, and those that I found were turned off by the fact that I had no programming knowledge/experience. So, I got fed up and decided to learn how to program. I started with Python, dabbled in some SQL, and am currently trying to refine my Django skills. Time, dedication, and documentation is all it really required. It's not that bad.

thehigherlife8• 19 years ago

Are there books you suggest i read, or tutorials to start with?

kyro3• 19 years ago

Yeah.

For Python: http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld/

http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/thinkCSpy/

http://www.diveintopython.org/

I also read the O'Reilly book on Python - 'Programming Python'

There's Python.org for all docs, of course.

For Django - http://www.djangoproject.com - they have a cool tutorial on the front page, and http://www.djangobook.com, then move to the documentation from djangoproject.

henning4• 19 years ago

Even though getting started with PHP and MySQL is easy, please avoid the temptation as it will brain-damage you in ways that will take a long time to recover from.

nanijoe• 19 years ago

Django may not be the way to go for a someone new to web development, for the simple reason that there is exactly ONE place to get any documentation, and that source is less than excellent. If for some reason you dislike ruby on rails (my first choice), I would say learn PHP. All you are trying to do is develop a web app, take the easiest path.

Finally,when your app gets complex and you need to hire programmers, you will thank me for this advice

bootload• 19 years ago

"... Are there books you suggest i read, or tutorials to start with? ..."

I'd suggest trying to change your "mindset" as well, building and reading supporting information at the same time. One such way is to read "SEIA" (Software Engineering for Internet Applications, Andersson, Greenspun & Grumet) which is online or in print and follow the book through ~ http://philip.greenspun.com/seia/

The book/course is easy to read and most important devoid of advocacy. The good thing is you can start now at no real cost. But it will take time and effort though.

webwright• 19 years ago

This is potentially terrible advice.

Temperamentally, many people are poorly suited for programming. The OP might be a great designer, writer and bootstrap marketeer who could benefit from a partnership.

I'd advocate for assessing your skills and honestly figuring out if you have anything to offer to a founding team (a lot of skills really don't matter until you've actually built something of value). If not, sure-- learn to code. Learn to design. But if you do have valuable skills, find a partner who has complementary skills and get rolling. If you can't find a partner, it's likely that your idea isn't as good as you thought it was. ;-)

kyro3• 19 years ago

Well, not too long ago I posted my dilemma about me being very business oriented and having design skill, and still not being able to find programmers as they were turned off.

And the majority of the replies I received were ones telling me to learn how to program.

Just because I'm learning to code doesn't mean, however, that I am tossing my other skills away. I find that I have a much much much better understanding of the mechanics behind apps and that at the very least, i'll be able to connect on a much deeper level with another programmer if I were to assemble a team and not take a significant programming position.

You're right, perhaps he may turn out to be an awful coder, but at the very least, establishing a common thread of communication by which a programmer can relay his concerns to a designer or a marketer, and for them to understand, in my opinion, is pretty valuable.

pg2• 19 years ago

Even if someone isn't cut out to be a great programmer, it will help a lot to have done some programming. Jobs wasn't a hacker on the scale of Wozniak, but it helped him a lot to have done some technical work. He was not just a suit.

jgrahamc• 19 years ago

Is that you, Kevin Rose?

John.

thehigherlife8• 19 years ago

nope.

henning4• 19 years ago

to the OP: make sure your CAPTCHAs don't suck as bad as digg's, which can be preprocessed and ready for segmentation/recognition in three lines of code.

axod2• 19 years ago

ideas are easy. Executing them is harder.

imsteve• 19 years ago

for sufficiently vague definitions of "idea".

Shooter6• 19 years ago

[for sufficiently vague definitions of "idea"]

Upmodded. That is brilliant.

As an entrepreneur, I have very specific thoughts on what constitutes a "good idea for a business." To me, it suggests that you have four things:

1. a keen insight into what a group of people (with money) want

2. you have a means of delivering a solution to those needy people

3. you have a way of targeting those needy people to let them know about your solution

4. you can deliver your solution at a profit.

When I started investing in startups, I learned that my definition of a good idea for a business differs GREATLY from what many are willing to pitch to me as a good idea. Many people are willing to pitch a very nebulous 'idea.'

There are also certain ideas prevalent in the startup community now that are MOSTLY or SOMETIMES true, but that I think people take too literally or misunderstand.

"Ideas are worthless, execution is paramount." Look, if you have a truly great idea...execution becomes much less important. With a great idea (which implies an actual business model), you can make quite a few execution mistakes and still end up with a great business. If you stumble, investors are more forgiving and will usually find the help you need in the execution area.

"Your final business is almost always different than what you initially intended to do" is another startup cliche that I think some entrepreneurs sometimes take too literally. This pearl of wisdom is basically telling you that you need to be flexible. Being flexible is very different that attacking an industry because it is hot and hoping something shakes out.

"Get the users and figure out a profit model later. It is easy to monetize millions of eyeballs." Again, this may be mostly true for a certain class of business...but it can also be a ticket to FAIL.

With apologies to Mrs. Robinson, I'm actually getting pitches like this:

Entrepreneur: "I have a GREAT idea!"

Me: "Yes?"

Entrepreneur: "Plastics!!!"

Me: "What do you mean 'plastics'?"

Entrepreneur: "They're gonna be huge. Plastics are the future."

Me: "What is your actual idea? How are you going to make money?"

Entrepreneur: "Advertising?"

axod2• 19 years ago

true :)

ok, ideas are easy. Ideas that could potentially make a lot of money aren't too hard to come up with. Ideas that could be the next big thing, are also within most peoples grasp.

Still think coming up with the idea is maybe 5% of the work. It's almost as bad as people who register what they think is a great domain name and think that's their website pretty much done now.

neo• 19 years ago

Get an NDA with anyone you work with. "Ideas are easy, execution is hard" is a cop-out excuse by people who don't have any patentable worthwhile ideas of their own!

jamiequint3• 19 years ago

ideas aren't patentable

Jd• 19 years ago

For better or worse, this is incorrect.

brlewis• 19 years ago

In the theoretical law where statute is obeyed and Supreme Court precedents are followed, you're absolutely right. For the actual law that happens to you when you go to court, you should consult a lawyer.

Shooter6• 19 years ago

"ideas aren't patentable"

That's true, but business methods and certain software implementations of novel ideas are patentable...at least in the US. I've found that truly good ideas are easily translated into one or both of these. The problem is, most people have "me too" ideas.

All philosophical arguments aside, the patent system can be an entrepreneur's best friend. Yes, the system is heavily abused. I personally don't believe in software patents. But I damn sure use them. Color me hypocritical.

pg2• 19 years ago

"Ideas are easy, execution is hard" is a cop-out excuse by people who don't have any patentable worthwhile ideas

I have a lot of ideas. Some are worthwhile. And yet I think execution is the hard part.

Kaizyn3• 19 years ago

Do you think that's because it's easy for you personally to generate ideas? Such creative thinking comes more easily to some than to most others.

anamax2• 19 years ago

Having done both, ideas are much easier. (I have 2 issued and 10 pending, 7 of which are a company's crown jewels.)

vikram• 19 years ago

An idea for a business is hardly patentable!

dorait• 19 years ago

There are several ways you can go about this:

1. Create a simple prototype that demonstrates the core ideas of the concept and show it to a few people (you trust). You may be able to attract some good developers if it appeals to them.

2. Start a blog and talk about how your idea may benefit some potential customers. See whether any one shows interest.

3. Go to one of the startup meet ups (www.meetup.com) in your area and informally discuss it or present it to the group.

4. You may not need to build the entire software. Most of the good developers know how to reuse existing software (libraries) to quickly build a version 1 of the product.

5. Try a few interns from your local computer school and let them build the first version of the product. Let a few friends try it out. If there is enough interest, you may be able to find some supporters in funding it or developers interested in developing it further.

6. You can start a project in one of the open source communities like sourceforge put some high level specs and see whether any one will be interested in joining you.

7. If you strongly believe in the idea and do not want to go open source, prepare a simple plan and approach some angels. Many angel investors may also have a good rolodex of development resources.

I think having a good idea for a great app is cool. But you need to go to the next step of prototyping or let others visualize it so that you can get some reactions. This will help improve the idea and also hear if such an idea is already implemented somewhere else.

SwellJoe3• 19 years ago

"6. You can start a project in one of the open source communities like sourceforge put some high level specs and see whether any one will be interested in joining you."

This is a rather persistent myth about Open Source. It's entirely fiction. If you post a working version to sf.net, you'll probably get a few bug reports and a few questions. If you work on it for a year, and do something really valuable to a lot of people, you'll see a few patches. If you work on it for another year, and continue to add value for a large technical audience, you may have a few parties who are interested in joining the project in a serious way.

Open Source software does not spring into existence. Nearly every project has one (or more) extremely dedicated developers pushing it forward every day. A non-programmer wishing something into existence is not going to make anything happen. I promise.

joshwa2• 19 years ago

An article posted to news.yc (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=58522 ) mentioned working with an outsourcing/offshoring partner, and giving them equity in exchange for building the app.

Have yet to find a good example of that really working for someone...

rickcecil• 19 years ago

Being in the same boat as you, I found the following to be worthwhile

1) Evaluate yourself and the skills you bring to the table. It's all in how you sell yourself. Even though I can't program, I understand experience design, business, visual design, and can get my hands dirty with some HTML and CSS.

2) Network locally. You're probably not going to find anyone worth working with online. Especially if you start out: "I have a great idea, but can't code. Wanna help?"

3) Be open to new ideas; people generally want to participate in the idea construction and product design. They don't want to pick up something that's been thought completely through.

4) Be willing to plunk down some cash. Get a tech lead for your project who can manage people you pay to build your system. If it's simple enough, you can build a decent app for less than $10K.

sbraford3• 19 years ago

Excellent points. Especially on #3 -- so few people I've talked to are open to working on ideas other than their own flushed out ones.

"Co-founding" is more than just splitting the stock pie. It's about coming up with the vision & direction for the company, which can't be done if one person has already done that for himself.

johnrob2• 19 years ago

I don't know how you can find a good hacker, because there is no way for you to judge one. That aside, your best bet is to offer a lot of equity in the startup. More than half of the company. Your biggest selling point is that you will take care of all the stuff that annoys hackers - designing UI screens, marketing, face time with real users. If your idea is good, you offer more than 50% equity, and take care of the non technical work, you are providing a pretty good deal. What you have to remember is that, as a non-hacker, you should feel lucky to be in the game at all. There are only two things startups REALLY need - money and hackers. If you don't bring one of those items, it's hard to make a case for being the major stakeholder.

augy• 19 years ago

do people design UI screens with Adobe?

johnrob2• 19 years ago

In my opinion, you can design UI with anything visual - even pen and paper.

chaostheory5• 19 years ago

using my past life as a web designer - yes, specifically with Illustrator

bmaier• 19 years ago

I think this is a bit unfair to the OP. Yes hackers are important but sometimes we tend to make ourselves want to feel too important. There's nothing stopping this kid from at least making a mockup. If he's going to hackers with just an idea that's his major problem. Show the hacker something tangible and he's more likely to get a partner.

Kaizyn3• 19 years ago

This seems silly. The guy with the big idea should be handing out peanuts to the code monkeys, not giving them all of his cash. Knowing exactly what the web system should do is far more important than a few programming skills (you can replace the code monkey more easily than you can a good startup idea).

rms• 19 years ago

The whole thing still only works when the big idea guy has money.

ecuzzillo• 19 years ago

This is a bit like saying "I have a great idea for a painting. Will you paint it for me, and then give me half the money you get from selling it?"

stillmotion• 19 years ago

Sounds like Andy Warhol.

jamiequint3• 19 years ago

or Dale Chihuly (see http://www.paulgraham.com/marginal.html)

run4yourlives8• 19 years ago

Your analogy is apt. What you (like a lot of programmers) fail to realize is that selling a painting is extraordinarily difficult.

They didn't coin the phrase "starving artist" for fun.

Shooter6• 19 years ago

Why can't I upmod run4yourlives on this? There are no mod arrows on his comment?

chaostheory5• 19 years ago

The problem is unless you're guy kawasaki, kevin rose, or some serial entreprenuer/misc luminary what proof do you have that you can outsell someone who can program?

(hypothetically if this is the case:) it's really hard to convince someone of your value if you can't even sell it to an angel or vc, and have cash as proof

fauigerzigerk3• 19 years ago

ecuzzillo, I've been running the marketing department of a well known retailer for 10 years. I think I have discovered a way to use data from social networking sites to enhance the models we've been using to analyse particular buying patterns. Obviously, I know a few people in the industry and everybody agrees that this idea has huge potential. I'm thinking of starting my own business to explore this further. Would you be willing to join me? I gather you are a great hacker with some maths and statistics skills, is that right? Oh you say you're not going to paint my picture... too bad. I guess I should learn Python ;-)

joshwa2• 19 years ago

email me... contact info in my profile.

deltapoint• 19 years ago

Thats what art galleries do, but they give the freedom to the artist and then decide whether the painting is "good" enough. This is more like contract work where someone would get payed to do murals or portraits and that too is commonplace. Also a webapp's popularity will mainly have to do with the quality of the idea and how well it is marketed and publicized, much of the programming necessary is relatively elementary.

menloparkbum• 19 years ago

Actually, that is almost exactly how the fine arts painting gallery circuit works.

adnam• 19 years ago

Huh? Who said anything about money? Thehigherlife just said he had a good idea.

Goladus• 19 years ago

Plan out exactly what you want for the web app on paper, and be as precise and consistent as possible.

Then pick a language and set up a development environment. (A difficult step to get past, but you might be able to get someone to help you do this for free)

Then start reading tutorials and doing practice examples.

Once you have a feel for how to get a basic app up and running, go back to the specs you wrote earlier and identify some subset that you want to implement.

Begin implementing your idea until you get stuck. When you get stuck, research the language tools you need to get unstuck. If you find yourself hopelessly lost, either pick a different subset of your app to work on, or go back to reading textbooks, tutorials, and forums until you better understand the concepts.

http://www.paulgraham.com/pfaq.html

henning4• 19 years ago

It might turn out it's not such a great idea at the current time after all because as a non-programmer you think too vaguely and declaratively. This isn't anything personal about you, it's just human nature.

Writing code forces you to think precisely and consider practicalities that are otherwise hidden from you as a user.

centipede• 19 years ago

Yes. Programming languages are only starting to get more declarative.

run4yourlives8• 19 years ago

>because as a non-programmer you think too vaguely and declaratively.

Youch. That's a painful trap of circular logic to fall into. Keep in mind that most businesses have been started by non-programmers.

SwellJoe3• 19 years ago

"Keep in mind that most businesses have been started by non-programmers."

We're talking about web technology businesses here, I presume. Otherwise OP wouldn't be trying to round up a programmer. The vast, vast, vast majority of web application startups are started by technical founders. Even the exceptions tend to bring some technical know-how to the endeavor (Digg, MySpace are examples of the non-programming founder, and they're the only two successful startups that meet that criterion I can think of off-hand).

Non-technical founders can create value. But that's hard to prove in the initial "Hi, do you wanna start a company?" phase. That's why he's not getting much traction from developers he talks to.

augustus• 19 years ago

The fact that you don't know programming is no big deal. Being a programmer for over 12 years and looking forward to my next startup, what I can tell you is that ideas do matter.

Consider this.The same amount of time that Google spend building a billion dollar startup is what a two bit outfit spends generating a million dollars.

Or another that goes belly up.

In other words ideas and execution equally matter. Maybe execution is a little more important. That's why Oracle dominates database software although initially there were multiple database startups (same idea).

A recent survey of forbes billionaires confirmed this. Many of them picked ideas over execution others picked execution.It all depends on the situation.

In any case, you can try building a prototype by using freelance sites such as guru.com or elance and then see what response you get from your target customers.

I think it is important to get feedback from would be paying customers. If it is positive then go for it.

-Augustus

run4yourlives8• 19 years ago

Do you by chance have a link to the Forbes study in question?

byrneseyeview• 19 years ago

http://www.forbes.com/2006/09/20/ent-manage_biz_06rich400_se...

Don't miss it.

ardit33• 19 years ago

That's complete bullsh!t.

It is execution that matters. Ideas are a dime a dozen. What google did was excellent execution of an non-original idea (there were lots of search engines at that time).

Look at the UConnect vs. Facebook. vs. that other dude that that the same idea. Facebook was able to execute much faster and better and got traction, while Uconnect is just crap, and they have to resort to lawsuits.

Sure, if your idea is dumb to begin with, then no matter how good the execution is, you wont get anything out of it.

But you still can change ideas and business plans around, and from a loser make a winner offering. (many startups end up changing their ideas business models at some point, including the company I am working for). If your execution team still sucks, your products will show it, and the next guy that likes idea, will copy it, and make a much better version of what you are offering. (just like Friendster got hosed by poor execution).

But it is a common trait from "Business" people that think ideas matter more. It is more of a whishful thinking. Honestly being good at business is nothing more that having a good common sense and street smarts, and knowing how to B.S. a little. Things that no school teaches you.

So my advice, learn how to build websites (as a programmer I'd like to concetrate on the harder stuff), do everything you can help the whole team, (from marketing, getting graphics, building mock-ups or prototypes) etc.. While you don't have to program, you better have some good technical skills, and really understand what's going on and how hard or easy is to do some stuff.

One thing that is very annoying, is how non-technical people think it is sooooo easy to just have an ajax drop down, or that little thing here, that little thing there, without having the slightly idea how much work it really takes.

jamiequint3• 19 years ago

Maybe thats true if the idea is "lets make a better search engine" but thats not much of an idea. If the idea is "lets make a better search engine that uses a unique ranking system based on links to estimate the popularity of any given page" then I'd say the idea is worth something.

The probable difference between ConnectU and Facebook? Facebook spammed all of Harvard to get its initial traction, ConnectU didn't.

chaostheory5• 19 years ago

I could be wrong, but referencing the Forbes survey that you cited - the results went against your conclusion...

Idea vs Execution (or which one is more important) votes:

------------------------

Arthur Blank: both

Tim Blixseth: both

Otis Booth: Execution

Mark Cuban: Execution

Gerald Ford: both

Danny Gilbert: Execution

Kennet Hendricks: both

Wayne Huizenga: Execution

George Kaiser: both

Michael llitch: Idea

William Moncrief: Idea

Phillip Ruffin: Idea

Jorge Perez: Execution

James Sorenson: both

------------------------

Both are equally important (tie): 6 votes

Execution: 5 votes

Idea: 3 votes

Conclusion: Execution wins

rkabir• 19 years ago

might be the obvious question here - but do you have any friends? (that have programming knowledge). My non-hacker buddies come to me with ideas all the time.

thehigherlife8• 19 years ago

yeah, i do the problem is i am more of a techie computer guy as in my skills in the computer industry are more troubleshooting based ie, if it is broken in some way be it cabling issue or DHCP server, i can fix it, not programming based, a lot of my friends who would be interested in this are so busy with school and things of that nature that they don't really have time to be completely involved in a project.

german• 19 years ago

If it is a webapp, the first thing that you should read is about HTML and CSS, then Javascript.

Then start with Python.

fauigerzigerk3• 19 years ago

Ideas DO matter if you define "idea" as knowledge about what a particular group of people needs. It's not just about one isolated idea of course. That kind of idea is indeed worthless. It's about your ability to make good judgements within a particular application context.

If you have that kind of knowledge and you are able to communicate with users then please please don't waste your time learning to program. If you have no special knowledge about a particular user community or industry then you should learn to program.

yaacovtp• 19 years ago

I did too! Found a partner who can program and we're well on our way.

white• 19 years ago

Find a partner. Like me.

Kaizyn3• 19 years ago

Solution 1: Higher cost, shorter turn around time. Spend the money to hire several programmers to implement your ideas for you. However, keep in mind that you should become technically proficient enough to communicate with and monitor the programmers. Otherwise, they're apt to take advantage of you.

Solution 2: Low cost. Long turnaround time. Start learning now how to program and build the web startup yourself. The biggest drawback with this option is that there's more to learn to correctly build a web application than to build a more traditional desktop program. It could take you six months before you've got a comfortable enough grasp of web programming to make progress on building your program. Although if it can be built as a Facebook widget or on top of existing services like those offered by Amazon, that may cut down on overall development time.

Solution 3: Higher cost than #2 but much lower than #1. Turnaround time would also be somewhere in the middle between #1 and #2. Partner with a friend of yours who also knows how to program. This way, if you decide to learn how to program you have someone right there to help you. You also have the option of dividing the work where you handle the business side and let your partner(s) handle the technical end.

I have a great idea for a webapp, but hardly any programming knowledge. What should i do?

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