Bullying has to stop, now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY

by sw007 • 13 years ago

176 176 13 years ago

redact207• 13 years ago

Too melodramatic, but I love the animation style.

I disagree. Bullying in public schools has one of the biggest impacts on social, cultural, and personal development. It's not just "a thing that happens" and has no effect, it's ubiquitous and it has a profound negative effect on millions upon millions of people. We give it short shrift so often because we have become inured to it. Too often we think it's just an inescapable fact of life, but it's not.

kunil• 13 years ago

Kids are mean, grow up.

yesbabyyes2• 13 years ago

You sound just like... Oh now I know: a bully!

This is not helpful advice, at all.

InclinedPlane9• 13 years ago

"Stop being raped." "Stop getting mugged." "Stop being stabbed." "Stop being murdered."

rplnt• 13 years ago

To be fair, he didn't say stop being bullied. He said we, adults, should get over it - kids are and will be bullied. So while I don't agree with him completely, your comments are way off topic.

jbrooksuk5• 13 years ago

I can relate to this website and cause. I was bullied throughout my entire high school life, in the UK that's a total of 5 years. I hated every single second of it and my academic skills reflect this. I wasn't a troubled kid, I wasn't someone who looked to cause trouble and I wasn't in trouble except a couple of occasions. I found myself being physically beaten almost every day for being the runt of the kids.

I didn't hit puberty till I was 16/17, I was about 5ft 4" during high school and now I'm 6t 2" at 21. I was your typical victim, glasses, braces, good at computers. None of it helped me. If I wasn't being beaten I was being called names, and as much as the phrase "sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me" is thrown around, it's not true.

Honestly, I thought about committing suicide time and time again. The teachers all but provoked the bullies and my parents - who know better now - assumed the teachers would deal wit it. They didn't. Eventually I gave up mentioning it to be people. I was pushed down stairs, burnt with glue guns, you name it.

On one occasion, I was beaten in class, my teacher turned around, saw what happened and looked away. She knew full well what happened.

Eventually I dealt with it myself, I beat the crap out of the main bully. I wasn't proud of it, but I sorted it myself. It was that moment my life changed, the last month of school - yes, it took me that long to sort - was completely different for me, I had a couple of friends. I happened to muse the other day on Twitter that if I could do one thing differently, it'd be school. I'd sort my problems on day one.

These days however I've achieved quite a lot, I'm proud of what I've done with my life and in some ways grateful for the bullying. It pushed me to better myself, I pursued computing, I'm now Lead Developer for a travel company. I have plans for a startup. I'm engaged. Life is awesome.

I donate to Beat Bullying each year, this looks like a great project.

MattBearman• 13 years ago

It's odd, people always say things like "violence doesn't solve anything" but I've heard so many stories like yours where the bullying only stops when the victim retaliates with force.

While I've personally never been on either end of bullying, what I've heard leads me to believe that for extreme physical bullying, getting violent can be the solution.

barry-cotter2• 13 years ago

Violence is the last resort of the incompetent, the competent use it sooner.

jbrooksuk5• 13 years ago

You've it the nail right on the head there. Unfortunately "forced" violence seems to solve many situations.

I wouldn't fight for the sake of fighting. When I used to go clubbing there were a couple of instances where some drunken guys would kick off on me, I attempt not to fight every time, it's hard to talk a drunken mess out of a fight, but if an attack is thrown at me I'll fight back, solely to knock them down in defense and walk off.

I forgot to mention I started following Ju-Jitsu so that if I was thrown somewhere I could land safely. I now use it to defend myself or friends if we find ourselves in a situation like that. It's happened only a couple of times thankfully.

lucian1900• 13 years ago

Carefully applied violence is often useful and even socially accepted. It's both sad and interesting.

Nursie10• 13 years ago

At age 9 people used to take my stuff and occasionally bully me in a sort of low-grade way. Until I beat the tar out of the main offender. You get a reputation as the smart/nerdy guy that once smashed the jock's head into a wall and nobody really bothers you again.

Bullying should absolutely be stopped by other means, but when it comes down to it these are animal level dominance games amongst young apes and violence does often solve them. I'm not saying it should, but it does.

If/when I have kids they'll be told to defend themselves and that their parents will back them up even if the school doesn't.

1SaltwaterC• 13 years ago

As a kid, figured out that by myself. In elementary school I was the typical victim. The words did not hurt me as the random people I don't care about are just that. Their opinion does not matter. However, that changed the moment it degenerated to physical violence. The problem fixed itself after punching the bully right in the nose the second time he tried the same treatment. That changed the parameters for the whole story. Went through the high school years almost without any physical violence. And by almost any I mean: got sucker punched in the 10th grade. Responded with a hook. That was an instant "calm the fuck down" for the aggressor. That was the last time I punched somebody.

polymatter6• 13 years ago

To add fire to this, you don't even need to cause actual hurt. When I snapped at bullys, my attack was largely ineffective in causing actual hurt to him. He easily blocked and dodged my rage infused punches and kicks until I had tired myself out. But it was overwhelmingly effective in stopping the bullying.

StavrosK• 13 years ago

I was also bullied until the bully got an ass kicking. For all the bullying he did, he was surprisingly easy to beat up, or maybe he didn't think I was going to punch him.

He actually avoided me afterwards.

y2bd• 13 years ago

> my teacher turned around, saw what happened and turned away.

I want to hope that we'll reach some point where this won't happen anymore.

jbrooksuk5• 13 years ago

Likewise. I remember being backed against a wall, lads a lot bigger around me. I was lifted up the wall punched in the stomach, looked up and saw the teacher almost with fear in her face, too scared to stand up for a student.

Not all of my teachers were like that thankfully, but that is the root of the problem. Teachers are too scared to deal with incidents like mine.

michaelgrafl• 13 years ago

Very impressive piece of work.

But what the hell with the UI of this website? It can't find a link to the respective Youtube site, nor can I click the annotations.

It looks really nice, but it's not very usable like that.

clicks• 13 years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=... if you would like a direct link (to watch it in 1080p, the animation is so superb you might as well :)).

I was thinking maybe it was a little too melodramatic... but perhaps that helps to facilitate a cathartic release. At any rate -- it's certainly a well-produced piece and worth a watch.

sw007• 13 years ago

Yes sorry about this. The site - GetInspired365 has two parts to it. One part which is a daily dose of inspiration, and another which is where users can submit inspiring things they've found - a user has posted this video on to the site and not included the source and as such may be a bit frustrating. The original source is here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY

Nux• 13 years ago

THANK YOU for the youtube link! The original site made my blood pressure go up and my damn browser freeze. Beautiful clip!

Tichy3• 13 years ago

The thing that strikes me about school is that people are pretty much locked into it. Once you get out of that system, if you are surrounded by nasty people, you can usually just leave. That's what I do, anyway. With school, not so much luck - it's possible to transfer to another school, but it's usually not very easy to pull of.

Of course the feeling of not being liked sticks, too, but perhaps it wouldn't even manifest itself so much if kids wouldn't have to expose themselves to so much nastiness to begin with.

I wish I could explain to all the depressed kids that there is actually a whole world out there, beyond the borders of the small environment they grew up in. With 6 billion people on the planet, there are many, many people you can relate to. The people you went to school with are just random.

Cthulhu_2• 13 years ago

And yet, being 'locked in', as you describe it, teaches a valuable life lesson: sometimes you have to deal with what you have, instead of run away or hide. As described above, sometimes you need to punch a factor that makes your situation undesireable and triggers your "flight" response to greatly increase your situation.

As in, this is your life, deal with it. You can't run away, so fix your problems instead of running from them. Teachers turn their back on you, so it's up to you. etc etc etc.

Learning that will help you in your life. Your job sucks: you can either run away and find something else, or you can kick it into high gear and make it worth your while, save the company, get rich. Depending on situation, of course.

Mahn3• 13 years ago

You forget that you are kid when you are in school; you barely scratched the surface of understanding how people think, what motivates and what drives them, heck you don't even know how would you take care of yourself alone. And yet you're being asked to deal with this. Yes, we eventually have to learn how to deal with life, but not this way.

Tichy3• 13 years ago

I'm glad that punching back worked out for some kids, but I would be wary of inferring a general rule from that. Might be the kids for whom punching back didn't work out just didn't tell their story.

What could also happen is that the bully gathers his friends and strikes back in a big way. Or maybe he has a knife. Or whatever - I don't know, probably I would try to punch back, too. But I don't think it is essential for people to go through such an ordeal.

Mahn3• 13 years ago

Exactly this. I remember the feeling of being very surprised to find out that life could meant so much more after I finished school. Suddenly bad things didn't happen because you were unlucky and that's it, but as a result of your choices that you could to some extent control. Things started to have, you know, meaning.

mac11752• 13 years ago

This is so damn true! My grades suffered in high school because of occasional bullying. This caused frequent feeling of uncertainty if I was to run into people who I would rather avoid. I remember sleeping when I got home from school because the emotional toll was exhausting. However, the only thing that kept me going was knowing that I would reinvent myself after I got out of high school.

The 'locked in' part is a huge factor. High school was a prison to me. Once I had a choice, my life id an absolute turn around. One other thing to add is that pride added to the problem. To tell my parents I was being bullied was impossible. So, this makes you isolated with your own mental anguish.

ErrantX5• 13 years ago

I don't think anything has touched me this deeply for years. I even got a little teary (which is rare for me).

A lot of this I can relate to. School was hell for me, and I still struggle to forgive the adults around me during that period who, despite knowing what I (and others) faced, failed us utterly. Of course, school is rough and tumble - but when things went too far they sympathised, and in some rare cases talked to the bullies parents. I don't ever remember anyone being excluded or punished properly, though.

One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them. I'd get depressed, or upset, and get hugs and sympathy, but no solutions.

The first guy he describes in this video I can relate to. I became withdrawn, anti-social, believing that solace was in books and learning rather than other people. Fortunately I ran into some people at university who slowly dragged me out of myself. And, eventually, I met a girl who tore apart my world and helped me rebuild it (although, maybe she didn't realise at the time, I'd got so good at hiding everything away).

One particular idiot at school loved to taunt me, hold my upside down by my ankles. One day I snapped, and as he ran at me I picked up a chair and swung it. So. Much. Trouble. I was very nearly expelled... The same guy was a consummate bully, big, loud and evil to anyone weaker than him. There was another kid in our class, a bit large but it was more muscle than fat. He was lovely, quiet and very very odd (I think he came from a bad family). One day the bully was shaking down some younger kids in the playground and, I remember this vividly, this guy just decided enough was enough. He calmly walked across the playground and threw bully against the wall. Pounded him in the face a few times and told him to stop. It worked, so so well (he was excluded of course, but there you go...), and we rarely suffered again.

What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?

I am certain that school ripped up several years of my life, and still adversely affects me to this day. But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?

Cthulhu_2• 13 years ago

> What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence? It teaches me, at least, that bullies get away with what they do because they don't get reprimanded enough. Physical pain is still the best thing to associate with negative or undesirable behavior. I see a distinct trend when it comes to bullying: 1. Kid gets bullied 2. Kid snaps, stands up for himself, beats up bully 3. Kid does not get bullied anymore I don't think physical violence is inherently wrong. Excess and systematic violence - as employed by a certain category of bullies - is, but some pain to associate bad behavior with is, I think, a critical part of upbringing and steering behavior.

On systematic physical abuse, this is what happens when you get away with it. See also comment #2 (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5284818); it stopped the moment the bullied stood up for himself and showed the bully, via a serving of physical violence, that his behavior is unacceptable and not without consequence.

Spoiled kids that misbehave at school often are exemplary students at school, simply because teachers are able to get them to realize their behavior is unacceptable. That 'toggle' should also be done to bullies though, and I for one can't understand why not more is done about it in schools besides the rather static and easily ignored 'awareness' lessons.

arethuza• 13 years ago

Aren't all justice systems ultimately based on the threat of violence from the state?

brador2• 13 years ago

What would you have liked the adults to do to solve the problem? What could they have done?

manicdee• 13 years ago

Not punish the kid defending himself with a chair?

Not punish the kid hitting back at someone who was bullying him?

Not punish the kid who beat up the bully?

It actually helps to have some idea of what's going on in the school yard, ask witnesses what was going on, and IF KIDS COMPLAIN ABOUT BULLYING DON'T TELL THEM TO GET OVER IT. "You're not making an effort to fit in" is blaming the victim. I'm not making the fucking effort to fit in because the other kids treat me like dirt. Why should I bother to try fitting in?

But yes, the adults could have looked at the situation and realised that the bully was getting their just deserts. Punishing the victim who has been pushed past the end of their tether is not helping anyone.

barry-cotter2• 13 years ago

But what can we do? Kids will be kids, eh?

End age based classes would be a good start.

moron4hire5• 13 years ago

And mandatory attendance. You can't force someone to learn when they don't want to. Stop treating schools like prisons and the attendees will stop acting like inmates.

babarock• 13 years ago

I completely agree that age-based classes is stupid. But what's the alternative?

The idea of classifying 5 year old kids based on any kind of factor scares the hell out of me.

coldtea5• 13 years ago

Because getting bullied from kids 2-3 years old would be so much better?

jbrooksuk5• 13 years ago

> Kids will be kids, eh?

Alongside the "sticks and stones rhyme" this sentence makes me tear my hair our every time I hear it. Kids who bully are thugs, not kids. My brother, he's 13, he's a kid, not a thug. He skateboards and hurts himself, plays computer games and does his homework. That is a kid.

I feel or you too buddy. That whole sentence gets me really irate.

cathustler2• 13 years ago

The kid with a myth of a father, and a mother who trades out her allotted food-stamps for drug money is a thug? Bullies aren't born, they're created; I have not once met a bully who had a perfect life before they decided to get angry and take it out on their peers, because, well, they don't know any better. So, yes, kids will be kids.

Mz6• 13 years ago

One thing we can do is provide more and better societal support for families/parents. My older son was usually the smallest kid in class. He tended to attract bullies. In one case, I learned a little about the situation. The bully's parents were divorcing and he was apparently going through hell at home. Bullies are most likely a product of a negative social environment themselves and coping as best they can.

The other thing we can do is raise kids with respect and good boundaries from the start. Although my son attracted bullies, he did not suffer unduly. He knew how to cope effectively. I was molested and raped as a child. As a parent, I enforced a strong policy of respecting boundaries. That empowered him to take action early with bullies and not tolerate small offenses and the inevitable escalation. Bullying and molesting work much the same way: The predator starts small and escalates. The most effective measures stop it early. Most approaches fail because they do not identify the problem or try to address it until it has already gone too far.

I have previously written about the policy I had at home which empowered him to deal effectively with bullies: http://www.kidslikemine.com/2012/06/13/an-invisible-shield-h...

jasonwocky• 13 years ago

That was a good blog post. I largely have the same policy with my daughters, but your post inspires me to consider applying it more strictly. Thanks.

digitalengineer4• 13 years ago

Trying to up vote you, but "User mismatch"? I'll take you're advice to heart.

Hope you don't mind me copying some of your advice here:

"They know if someone is disrespecting them, that is a huge red flag and the person should not be trusted because they are likely some form of social predator, whether sexual or otherwise. [b]They do not go along to get along.[/b] They do not get led merrily down some slippery slope.

...The vast majority of the time, child molesters are someone the child knows and trusts, someone who has made an effort to get close and push the boundaries of what the child would accept. My sons have basically a zero tolerance policy for boundary violation, thus they were virtually immune to that type of predation."

mtoddh2• 13 years ago

One thing I am never, ever, going to tell my kids is the stupid "sticks and stones" rhyme. That's just to make you feel better, not them.

I agree. Part of the problem is that adults tend to hold kids to a much different standard than they hold themselves. For instance, as an adult, if I'm working in a company where verbal bullying and harassment is a problem, and HR does nothing to address the situation, then I'll just give my two-week notice and move on to another company. Kids on the other hand don't have the option of giving their two-week notice and moving on to another school because of a 'hostile work environment'.

How many adults do you think would stick around at a company if they had to put up with the level of violence and harassment we subject our kids to in schools? And if the only response they got back from management and HR was a "sticks and stones" speech? Forget about it! Which highlights another difference- it's also in a company's own self interest to address these issues seriously, because if they don't, it's gonna effect their bottom line when good employees start leaving. But, what motivation do schools really have- it's not as if their "employees" (students) get to quit if they don't like the way they are being treated.

What does this teach kids? That there is no justice in the world except that which you take by violence?

My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great. And if it doesn't, a right-cross to the bully's nose is what worked for me when I was a kid. Will this stop the bully from picking on people? Probably not - but it will likely make him stop picking on you. He'll move on to the next victim - one who won't fight back.

Swizec2• 13 years ago

> My son is only two and a half right now. When he gets older my advice to him will be to first go through all of the proper channels in case bullying comes up. Give the system a chance to work, and get some documentation that you did so. And if it does work great.

You are forgetting the schoolyard code. You never go to the appropriate channels. Ever. That is one of the worst things a kid can do to themselves.

The right response to physical bullying is to stand up for yourself. It's one of the most important lessons a person can learn - how and when to stand up for themselves.

I was bullied a lot in primary school, but I dealt with it and as much as bullies liked picking on me, they also knew going too far would hurt. A lot.

tomjen33• 13 years ago

I can assure you that the system won't work against bullying -- oh there will be a lot of talk, maybe even with his parents - but of all the people (and that has been a lot) I know who have been bullied over the years only fighting back works.

And you better do it as soon as possible, before he does too much psychological damage on you.

Tichy3• 13 years ago

My son is 2,5 now, too. I definitely plan to let him get some martial arts training before starting school. Not sure what age would be good, but I suppose 4 at the latest (maybe sooner).

It seems like a good basic skill to have in life...

And also, running - in most fight situations, running is probably the best option.

belorn• 13 years ago

Where I live (Sweden), its common to move bullied kids to new schools, because its an political impossibility to do action against bullying kids while they still are attending school. It much easier to "ask" the parent of a bullied kid to move the kid to a new school. In the extreme edges, where clear physical evidence can be collected from several years of bullying, there is sometimes a court case. Those cases is always after the kid has left the school, several, often 10+ years later.

A problem is that physical evidence is extremely hard to collect from children. As the video show, kids do get bruised by accident, and when they fight, it rarely end up in obvious fighting type damage like an bruised eye or broken jaw. If one compare it to a brawl at a bar, school yard bullying do not have a bunch of reliable third-party witnesses (yes, drunk people at the bar is more trusted in this case).

However, what about Justice which one takes by violence? It might work sometimes, but I would warn about gangs. Kids like adults have a tendency to form groups. Groups get group mentality, which can get very ugly very fast. One has to be very fast, quick and lucky to survive going up against a bullying gang leader. Sticks and Stones hurt.

For the people who made this video, thank you. I hope this will remind people, and maybe get some tools invented to start combating bullying. Being a security interested person, I can think of several ideas but I am worried about which ones might actually have an effect and which ones will only make us feel like we are doing something. Cameras and microphones is popular in schools now, and each kid tend to have a smart-phone, and yet I not heard of a reduction in bullying. Small classes is an other solution proposed by people, but I have yet to see a case where that have made a difference. Even when a teacher has time to do something, they seems perplexed on how to deal with it. Maybe if tested tools and procedures is invented, small classes will start to have an effect on bullying.

moron4hire5• 13 years ago

I don't know. My best friend from growing up was not bullied in any way (we were homeschooled and he was the popular one in our knot), but some sociology class in college made him internalize the notion that "names really do hurt" and it eventually tore our friendship apart. He couldn't differentiate between good-natured ribbing and bullying. I knew this guy for 25 years and "names really do hurt" turned him into a dullard who couldn't hang out with the guys and have a drink.

adrr• 13 years ago

There is no justice, life isn't fair and people aren't born equal. I hate to seem cynical but these are valuable life lessons for kids to learn to prepare them for real life.

rajatarora• 13 years ago

Very impressive animation and the way the youtube video is embedded to the site.

InclinedPlane9• 13 years ago

This is the youtube URL, btw: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY

unimpressive• 13 years ago

I think that Paul Graham's essay "Why Nerds Are Unpopular." hasn't aged a day.[0]

I sincerely doubt that anybody is going to stop bullying anywhere without addressing the root causes. And I doubt the root cause is that kids are inherently evil monsters.

[0] http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

nmudgal• 13 years ago

If you ever feel alone in this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5270460

pkhamre• 13 years ago

It looks like a reference to goatse.cx in the part about accepting yourself, at 5:58.

Gotttzsche• 13 years ago

uh, all im seeing is a quote about some piece and it fades out until i move the mouse again...??

Mahn3• 13 years ago

There should be a video in the background full screen, try with another browser.

CaptainDecisive• 13 years ago

Yeah, same for me with Chrome. Irritating, isn't it. The site seems poorly designed. I can see a Flashblock icon in the top left so I know what's broken, but I can't click on the Flashblock icon to enable the content, as it won't take focus. Despite being interested in the topic I didn't dig deeper, so they lose a reader.

pinchyfingers• 13 years ago

The real problem is state-mandated detention centers for children. Bullying is a feature of the school system. Put kids in a healthy environment that leaves room for freedom and empowerment, and all of these kinds of problems would greatly diminish.

Kids bully each other because we bully them.

petercooper2• 13 years ago

Going off on a tangent here, but do people who are good at sports often suffer long term bullying at school?

I wasn't bullied at school, IMHO (nothing physical, the odd bit of name calling.. which they got back ;-)) but it seemed as if people who were into sports avoided every hassle, including the sportier geeks who were in the football team, etc.

Looking back, I have to wonder if there's something about being active, being in teams, or the effect doing sports has on your body (language) that means you either fit in better, stand up for yourself more, etc. I certainly feel that way as an adult now trying to become more active. It changes how you hold yourself.

My daughter is now in all the social and sports clubs we can get in and which she enjoys. My parents never encouraged me into being active or joining clubs, but I have to wonder if I had been, maybe I'd be very different (not that I'm unhappy with my lot now :-)) and maybe my daughter could end up being one of the "popular kids" just by virtue of being active and socializing with her peers early.

anu_gupta• 13 years ago

I think it might also have something to do with being a recognised part of a group who would certainly be capable of punishing the bully.

Interestingly, there's a young diver here in the UK called Tom Daley (got a medal at last year's Olympics). When the media frenzy about him kicked off a few years ago, he got bullied at school. However, diving is a pretty solitary activity and he certainly wouldn't have had a team with him to prevent this.

colomon• 13 years ago

Two thoughts:

I can recall the lightest wrestler on my high school wrestling team getting bullied by his teammates several times. I didn't do anything to help him.

I was one of those sporty geeks in high school, but I was completely unsporty in elementary school, and I was never significantly bullied. I suspect my "defense" was mostly being the biggest kid in the class.

robinh2• 13 years ago

I think it may very well be the other way around. Example: I used to do sports. Then the bullies came. Then I stopped doing sports because that's where they were.

polymatter6• 13 years ago

2nd this. But sports do help with confidence and self-esteem too.

kevin_nisbet• 13 years ago

I think the conundrum here is those good at sports.

When I played hockey, I certainly wasn't popular with my team, especially when the bullies were on it, but I never got picked on much since I was a good player, and I could give much more than I ever got. I was always pretty quiet, so the bullies never knew what to expect of me.

However, being a house league team, there were several players who got bullied, and they were always the fat kids, who couldn't skate as fast, or stand up for themselves.

And I think it's the same relationship everywhere, and on the comments already made. Bullies never pick on kids bigger than them, or that are necessarily unpopular. However, they will sniff out weakness and pick on the weak, no matter where they happen to be.

I was however, always curious at the root of bullying, since even in my adult life, I see many people who still cluster around making themselves feel better by laughing at stupidity of others (just not to their face), and scare myself, since I've caught myself doing the same thing. Sure we're certainly more civil about it, but to me it seems to be rooted in the same base nature, as a mechanism they're using to try and feel empowered.

hvs• 13 years ago

Some of the worst bullying I received was in locker rooms. Don't kid yourself. It can happen anywhere.

mac11752• 13 years ago

I remember being bullied every day my freshman year. The bully was on my cross country track team. I wonder what would have happened if I never joined track.

InclinedPlane9• 13 years ago

We live in a country that is heavily optimized toward factory work. Designed to produce a citizenry which is made up primarily of compliant, obedient assembly line workers in an era where the dubious advantages that once had are no longer relevant. Our labor laws, our political systems, and especially our public educational system (which is heavily based on the Prussian model) have been built along these models. The impedance mismatch is becoming greater and greater over time, we would be wise to understand the root of the problem and work to fix it.

oulipo• 13 years ago

This is Shaun Koyczan, one of my favorite slam poet (he's from Canada)

duopixel2• 13 years ago

I'd like to read an honest account from a former bully who matured into a fully functional adult. To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids. I've met some former bullies but it seems that they either don't remember or don't want to deal with understanding it themselves.

robinh2• 13 years ago

Not a bully, but a bullied person who is still forced to sometimes interact with his former bullies. In my case, these people are quite functional in society, and when confronted laugh it off - seeing it is one big joke that isn't to be taken too seriously.

It may be understandable that to this day, I honestly still feel my blood boil when bullying gets mentioned.

fmavituna• 13 years ago

> To this day I don't understand the motivation of terrorizing other kids.

Really?

Look at the popular culture around you, comedy movies, youtube videos, blogs all about bullying people (fail blog and all fail culture), look at the front page of reddit etc.

I understand that if you don't personally connected but you can see that people enjoy other people's failures and misery.

This kind of popular culture and the internet makes it even worse.

duopixel2• 13 years ago

> people enjoy other people's failures and misery

This is a very grim outlook on life. What I see in popular culture is—for the most part—people being clowns in order to draw attention. I also think that having laughs at the expense of someone else's misfortune is not at the same level as causing misfortune in order to get some laughs, completely different things.

martinced• 13 years ago

I think it's very finely done. I'm impressed by the quality of that animation and the voice is both great and touching in its tone.

I'd say part of the solution is explained in the animation itself: you don't have to feel this way if you're getting bullied.

Parents have a role to play. My parents always told me to not pay attention (I was the smallest kids in my class from 4 years old to 15 years old or so, so people would tease me all the time). And I didn't pay attention.

Then he talks in the animation about bearded girls: parents have to intervene here. I was a boy but when I started having a mustache, which looked silly in retrospect on the tiniest kid in the class, they offered me an electric razor. I hated that day the day it happened. But then I realized I had to shave.

Same for bearded girls: parents have to take her to do laser elimination of the beard. Common.

If parents have a fat kid, they should confiscate coke and sodas and force the kid to go exercice a bit. A daily run. Something. It was tennis and bycicling for me (not that I've ever been fat).

Sure bullying is lame. But acting like a victim is not ok.

I agree that fighting back is not always easy, but it's not always mandatory to physically fight back either. As someone else already commented here: if they insult you, you can fight back verbally (being smart makes it all too easy to be really mean in retaliation ; )

"Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent".

We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids properly, so that they never become victims.

cdmoyer• 13 years ago

> We're all past the age of getting bullied and we can >understand that nobody can make us feel inferior without >our consent. Now we have to remember to raise our kids >properly, so that they never become victims.

I don't think there is an age limit on being bullied. And while nobody can make us feel a certain way, they can certainly create an environment where it's an uphill struggle to remain positive.

InclinedPlane9• 13 years ago

This is bad advice.

Kids don't start out strong, they aren't magically born with all the skills they need to be an adult. And we understand this, which is why we have different norms for children than for adults. When someone has grown into adulthood they may finally have their shit together and they may have acquired enough self-confidence to be able to handle bullying. But kids are not that way. And though we should try to guide kids towards becoming more mature along the way to adulthood we should not expect and especially not require that they have the maturity of an adult just in order to live day to day.

Telling people not to become victims is often not helpful. It's good to be more self-reliant and self-assured. But that does in no way diminish the damage done by the perpetrators or their culpability for that damage.

yesbabyyes2• 13 years ago

No. I'm sure your intentions are fine, but this is not good advice.

We cannot keep perpetuating this idea that you have to fit in. That right there is one of the most harmful memes in our Western society today.

If a kid wants to use the razor to shave, that's fine. If a kid has a problem with obesity, yes, support that kid and help that kid find a better, healthier path.

But not in order to avoid oppression. Because it's better for his or her health. For her, or his, self esteem.

A person close to me was severely bullied when she moved to a new school. She was the only person with dark skin in a school of white Northern Europeans, at a time when there were racists in parliament and a serial killer was murdering persons of color.

What do you figure she would do to fit in?

It's the bullies that has to change. The silent bystanders. Us. We must say "Wow, you have beautiful facial hair". We must embrace diversity.

Not eradicate it.

RyanMcGreal• 13 years ago

Is it fair to hypothesize that a high proportion of people working in tech today were bullied and abused as children? Yet here we are today, as a community, still bullying, intimidating and harassing women who try to join our field. Something to think about as we recall the hurts that seared and traumatized us not so many years ago.

klsw• 13 years ago

I study CS at a (top* ) UK university.

Having spoken to a fair few people, a pattern that became plain as day very quickly was that almost all of us have had a background that either very specifically involved bullying as children or at the very least would have set us aside very strongly (heavy therapy for various reasons being one example). It's actually joked about at this university in multiple disciplines, however, that it's hardly uncommon for those who attend here to be 'crazy' in some way.

Lest you fear self-selection due to my own background I would point out that various circumstantial factors (including simply having spoken to many, many people) lead me to believe that I have enough of a sample to believe that isn't the case. Once again, when talking about others' lives I'll try to give as little identification as possible.

* I thought at length before putting that in, but I would hope that HN comments aren't likely fodder for the sort of 'shocker' article that graces rag news headlines.

drakeandrews2• 13 years ago

It's very easy for the abused to turn into abusers, hell I nearly did. It is what is making me so uncomfortable reading these comments advocating that the solution is to let the abused extract violence on their abusers. In too many cases, the abused discovers that they like the taste of violence, the power it grants them over those weaker or slower than them. And I can't knock them for that, violence feels wonderful. That's why I've had to be very careful not to let myself slip into that mold and remind myself that on the other side there is someone who is feeling the very same pain you shirk from.

jtheory• 13 years ago

Wow, that made me cry.

throwaway_1234• 13 years ago

In my previous job (my current one is far better), I experienced workplace bullying.

Though childhood bullying is more traumatic long-term, and often far more overtly abusive, workplace bullying is in many ways harder to resolve, having a fight or full confrontation would often result in sacking + not being able to get a good reference going forward.

The typical way it works is via underhand comments + actions designed to put you down but which generally look perfectly acceptable to other colleagues. This makes it easy to make out that it's your fault, you're hysterical, why are you causing trouble when there isn't any?

No amount of bringing it up caused any managers up the line to do anything about it either - it wasn't in their interest to take the flak from challenging the people involved.

The really pernicious aspect of it is how it grinds down your confidence to the point where you start actually believing there really is something very wrong with you. I spent months afterwards emotionally burnt out, even getting a new job was incredibly hard because I had begun to truly believe I was just totally shit at my job, programming, etc.

The irony was, a simple word with the people concerned from a manager would have resolved a lot of the issue. The effort required was minimal and the consequences huge.

Please, if you're a middle/upper manager, don't put your career concerns over the human beings 'below' you. And if you do, don't kid yourself about what you're doing.

Millennium• 13 years ago

This is why we need to stop teaching kids that it is wrong to defend themselves.

Ixiaus• 13 years ago

I have plugins in my browser disabled and I'm unable to click the media "area" at all (it's hiding behind something??). Just FYI.

lelele• 13 years ago

Then bully the bullies to make them stop. Otherwise, you are kidding yourselves.

Carlee• 13 years ago

Being bullied is a terrible thing to experience, and I wish that kids wouldn't be that cruel, however, to me, it is not fair to expel or exclude the bully.

You can't blame the bully for his/her social upbringing. Kids are basically psychopaths in such a young age - they just act according to whatever they feel, and if they haven't been taught boundaries - well, shit. Bad environments promote shitty attitudes and behaviour patterns, which is often due to their parents. Rich or poor doesn't matter. Some of the worst bullies I've been faced against came from wealthy families.

I think schools should be more focused on teaching the bullies way to cope with things at home, instead of simply excluding them. The bullies don't change their attitude, and someone new will take their place (I recall a Danish study about class rooms where the bullies removed, experienced the same amount of bulling just a month later. New bullies take other's places).

shreeshga• 13 years ago

school rankings should include "bullying" score.

chimpinee• 13 years ago

I don't think people appreciate how intractable a problem bullying is. For instance, bullying is qualitatively indistinguishable from teasing, which is regarded by most as part of normal, healthy socialisation. Hence low-level bullying goes unperceived. OTOH intense bullying is an embarrassment to the school statistics and hence frequently denied or covered up.

We live in a society where people still put a tremendous amount of effort into being normal and liked, and as a corollary we tend to persecute those who don't do this. Bullies are our unappointed henchmen.

jader201• 13 years ago

As a parent, bullying -- or any type of oppressive actions on my children -- is something that terrifies me. Not because I want to shield my children from the world and its negative impacts -- because I want them to learn that the world is not perfect, and to be able to cope with an imperfect society.

But because of the fact that these afflictions are often permanent and irreversible.

I think the best hope a child has against bullying is to have a parent that cares, and is educated of the impacts of bullying and how to minimize the risks of their child being subject to bullying.

Of course, this doesn't address the root issue -- the bully. And while we as a society can work towards educating others to help prevent their child from turning into a bully, there's obviously little I can do, as a parent, to change the behavior of a bully.

I feel that best way I can help my child not be the bully is to show them unconditional love, the best I know how, and to help them to love others. I also try to equip them with empathy so that they understand that their actions have a real impact on others, but this is hard sometimes -- especially with younger children.

However, I will honestly say that I don't feel equipped, as a parent, to help my child deal with bullying appropriately and effectively. Looking through this thread, I see a couple links, but does the hacker community have other good resources to equipping parents on how to help their child handle bullying?

sheraz• 13 years ago

You want a real show about bullying? Watch 3'oclock high [1]. It's a fun story about hitting back.

I thought that video was horrible. Kids need to learn to hit back, either physically or verbally.

My kids will learn to hit back because that is how I grew up. I've blooded lips and blackened eyes, and I've had it done to me.

I grew up where the teachers were smart enough (and had enough autonomy) to let some of this play out. Fights were broken up and kids punished, but the penalties were not juvenile hall and a ride in a police car. Instead there was some detention and parent conferences, and often the respect of your peers.

[1] http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094138/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Urgo• 13 years ago

Not going to lie, this made me cry. Thanks for posting this. I'm sharing it with all my social circles now. Everyone needs to see this.

Also its been posted already but direct YouTube link to this is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltun92DfnPY

japhyr• 13 years ago

I have been teaching for about 15 years, with a mix of high school and middle school experience. I also worked for 6 months in an elementary school supporting students behaviorally. I have seen bullying my entire professional life.

I have participated in countless professional development experiences over the years, and I have grown a healthy skepticism towards commercial offerings that aim to solve school-based problems. So I was not excited when we had to do a workshop based on the Olweus bullying prevention program [1]. I was completely impressed, however. This organization has examined bullying very carefully, and they have used the results of their studies to offer meaningful, concrete steps that can be taken to deal effectively with bullying.

The two clearest things I learned were a good working definition of bullying [2], and a breakdown of the roles that people play in a bullying situation [3]. Bullying is negative behavior aimed at a person who will have difficulty defending themselves; it is repetitive in nature; and it is carried out by someone with an imbalance of power over someone else.

In bullying situations, there are 4 negative roles: bullies, followers, supporters, and passive supporters. There are disengaged onlookers. There is a person who is being bullied, and there may be defenders and potential defenders.

I learned that is often best to give our attention, when interrupting bullying, to the victim. Clearly if there is serious, immediate physical danger, we confront the bully first. But if saying something simple like, "Hey xxx, I don't like the way you're being treated, do you want to take a walk with me?" takes the power away from the bully, and stops giving that person the attention they have been craving. This is not enough; we need to follow up by dealing directly with the bully. But engaging the bully directly just feeds them the attention they want, and gives them more power.

Quick story: My high school classroom looks out on the back of a kindergarten-first grade playground. My students and I watch little kids play all day long. We watch all the misfit kids play at the back, less-watched part of the playground. Most of what we see is low-level shoving, self-regulated by peer groups. I finally saw something I needed to interrupt last week. I watched a kindergarten kid grab another kid by the collar, shove him against a chain link fence, and hold his hand up to the kids face like a gun. I walked over and said, "Hi, my name is Eric, who are you?" to the bullying kid. He let go and got really humble, and said his name. Then I remembered to focus on the victim. He turned around, and he was a classic snot-nosed kid who looked like he'd be picked on a lot. I asked him his name, said it didn't look like he was being treated very well, and talked to him for a few minutes. All of the onlookers gave their attention to the victim, and you could see the bully backing out, not in fear, but because no one was paying attention to him. I did ask the bully before they dispersed, "Do you really want to shoot someone?" He said no, and I said he might want to find another way to play. By the way, if he had run off, I would have gone into the school and found him in his classroom. Those kids need to know that strong, positive adults are watching them.

[1] http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/index.page

[2] http://www.violencepreventionworks.org/public/faqs.page#Answ...

[3] (pdf, page 4) - http://www.pa-strengthening-families.org/providers/308/bully...

geogra4• 13 years ago

This is brilliant, thank you!

I was lucky never to be bullied physically in school. But I deeply sympathize with those that have been.

lobo_tuerto• 13 years ago

Excellent example about how to handle a bullying situation. Now I know how can I help in a positive way if I detect something similar going on.

mikegreenberg• 13 years ago

This doesn't begin in the classroom. This starts at the home. And the same tools can be used on your own kids. Thanks for sharing.

falcolas• 13 years ago

Fantastic! A great call to action.

But... how do we do it? What one person perceives as hurtful is normal behavior to another. There simply is no quantitative scale of what is hurtful behavior and what is not, because it differs from person to person.

To those claiming "Our kids need to fight back", how's that other's parent going to respond when their child is beat up, for just saying the words "Pork Chop"? Not well, I can imagine. People are given nick names all the time, by their parents, by their peers. Because a minority of people take offense, can we now broadly classified this "normal" behavior as bullying?

Bullying is not right, but neither is it simple to classify or prevent.

kstenerud2• 13 years ago

There is only one way I've found to successfully deal with a bully: Fight back with everything you've got, and don't be fair about it.

I got a LOT of flack from teachers who would give me the usual "solve problems without violence" bullshit, but here's the thing: In every school I went to (we moved around a lot), I got picked on by the local bullies one time, and ONLY one time. Sure, I got the shit kicked out of me a few times, but you don't actually need to win the fight. Once they realize that you won't just passively take it, they leave you alone. You will, however, have to deal with ignorant teachers.

TeMPOraL3• 13 years ago

Curiously, that's more-less exactly how Ender from Orson Scott Card's "Ender Game" approached the topic.

kstenerud2• 13 years ago

Yes, I felt pleased and vindicated when I read that book years later. But he didn't actually have to go that far. You only need to cause enough pain to your opponent that they start to think twice.

koenigdavidmj• 13 years ago

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1765109

But son, as soon as someone puts their hands on you, they've crossed a line. Fuck them up. It's the only thing these vicious freaks understand. They're wild animals. They make violence on you, you need to show them that you're the stronger, bigger animal. When someone attacks you maliciously for no reason, you need to impose your will on them.

Even if you lose, lose swinging. They respect it. Be a tough fight.

This "talk it out" shit doesn't work... it's been the dogma for the last 30-50 years, it assumes the nobility of human nature will win out. It doesn't. It's nonsense. It just simply doesn't work.

drakeandrews2• 13 years ago

This video popped into my stream a week ago now, I must have watched it eight or ten times now. It's certainly hit a chord with me.

I went to a secondary school (ages 10-14, first half of high school?) where the senior teachers gave the speeches about a "Zero-Tolerance Approach to Bullying!" and how they had only had three cases of bullying in the last few years. They lied, cooked the figures and redefined bullying to cases of systematic physical abuse which was rare. Because they did have a zero-tolerance policy towards violence.

I have two sets of parents, my dad and then my mum and step-mum. Starting secondary school someone found this out and like a lot of people suggested here when they tried to use it to verbally abuse me I exacted violence against him. Not wanting it to explode into something more, the school kept it very quiet and I didn't get punished, but neither did he. Instead, if he ever told anyone else what happened or about my parents he'd get off scott free. To his defense no-one found out for three and a half years. Instead, I got three and a half years of verbal abuse, the little physical things one can get away with in corridors, my possessions taken and hidden. Some teachers tried to help but there is only so much they can do when most of them don't care. "Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will break them for you" is something I remember hearing from a sympathetic teacher.

Then one day, it suddenly became common knowledge. I found myself faced with what felt like a third of the school who wanted to see me beaten. Fortunately, I appeared to be the only person who didn't know this was going to happen, there were almost as many if not more people behind me (and quickly, around me) who were adamant that I was going to be okay. The next six months were basically hell. Then as the natural progression of things, I shifted schools to a school that had a teacher who kept everyone in line and looked after those who needed help, be they the abused or the abuser. I was lucky in that I found a support network that let me rebuild myself and my self-esteem after. I am who I am despite, not because, of what I've been through. Even if there are still days where I have to look a little closer at the mirror to remind myself of that.

InclinedPlane9• 13 years ago

I hate that this link/discussion only spent a few hours on the front page of HN, and has been replaced mostly be frivolous crap.

I'm sure the trivia behind why so many programming languages use curly braces is super fascinating, but I'd much rather be discussing something of substance.

Are these honestly the things that people would rather be discussing instead of bullying and the work of poetry and art that has inspired this discussion?

I'm a little bit disgusted by the HN community at large right now. If I could reset my karma level to 0 in trade for keeping just this one thread on the front page for a whole day I'd do it in a heart beat.

Bullying has to stop, now.

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