Regulators Demanding Uber Price Increase to $75 Minimum in Vancouver

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=8d2fd6968b2b5c64d0d22dba2&id=716a9504de&e=60b1c5b342

by imack • 14 years ago

52 56 14 years ago

mtgx• 14 years ago

What business does the Government have to fix the prices of a private company so arbitrarily like this? Surely this isn't constitutional?

cbr• 14 years ago

Price floors are dumb, but I don't see where Canada's constitution would prohibit one.

(I don't see what would prohibit a US city or state from enacting one either.)

freshhawk9• 14 years ago

It's because you need to be regulated to be allowed to operate a taxi or limousine service. That's because of the history of horrific things people do to each other when taxi's aren't regulated.

As to what logic is behind this other than protecting their members against the new guy I have no idea.

StavrosK2• 14 years ago

What do people do to each other?

Or was that a joke?

elchief• 14 years ago

Have you ever been in a taxi in Mexico City at night? Terrifying. I'll take my Canadian regulations, thanks.

Shafting Uber is not a problem of excessive regulation, but of purposely protecting incumbants.

ihsw• 14 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong but Mexico City is not in Canada.

WildUtah2• 14 years ago

Yes, I have been in taxis in Mexico City at night. Many times in many different parts of the city I have procured the services of taxis of all kinds for decades. All of my experiences have been fine and I've never been terrified, scared, concerned, attacked, robbed, worried, or kidnapped in any way.

I have been overcharged, though. It happens less now that I speak the language fluently but I can't change the fact that I'm an obvious foreigner. The city does not regulate nighttime fares.

If you are concerned, get a "sitio" taxi from one of the thousands of convenient taxi stands that check on and track their drivers and cars. It costs a little more but provides rock solid security.

You should never have any trouble with Mexico City transit of any kind except personal cars; driving yourself is insane in a city of 24 million. The transit system, from taxis to subways, is clean, cheap, innovative, reliable, and efficient with an excellent worldwide reputation.

That is accomplished with a network of private regulations (taxi sitios), fully public systems (subway, bus rapid transit), minimal public regulation (taxi licensing), cooperatives of private contractors (minibuses), privatized toll roads, and public streets. As an operators, you can choose the level of regulation you want to operate under and then operate the corresponding kind of transit you want your business or career to involve. Diversity works much better than monopoly of the type being mandated in Vancouver or NYC.

jvm• 14 years ago

How does regulation make taxis safer? As cars, they need to have a license plate you can write down and give to the police. I can't imagine what aspect of regulation offers protections beyond that.

IMO taxi regulation in North America is generally designed for no other purpose than to purposely protect incumbents, so saying those are different things is a false dichotomy. Of course, since that might look bad to the voting public, sometimes they pretend there are other benefits.

I'm not a libertarian btw, I have no problem with the concept of regulations, I just call rent seeking when I see it.

huhtenberg• 14 years ago

Shafting Uber with pricing requirements is excessive regulation.

cperciva2• 14 years ago

Surely this isn't constitutional?

The federal government could make it illegal to drive a taxi in Vancouver except while wearing a pink tutu and singing Christmas carols. The provincial government could make it illegal to charge taxi fares which are not a prime number of cents.

Yes, it's perfectly constitutional to set a minimum price for private hire cars. Whether a law is dumb is orthogonal to whether it is constitutional.

jacquesm• 14 years ago

> The federal government could make it illegal to drive a taxi in Vancouver except while wearing a pink tutu and singing Christmas carols.

As a former frequent user of that particular mode of transportation, that would be 'business as usual', which makes me wonder if such a law (or at least one like it) is already in effect.

opendna4• 14 years ago

Many cities regulate taxis as public utilities, in a similar fashion and logic to the regulation of telephone, power, water and public transit companies. We don't see much discussion of it anymore, but if you look to the early-20th century, you'll find many examples of granting monopoly licenses in exchange for universal service and non-discrimination.

To the extent that you think this is unconstitutional, unprecedented or inherently destructive, I encourage you to look at US economic history before 1970. AT&T's monopoly and rate regulation included transfer pricing which allowed them to subsidize rural services and connect the last mile to (almost) every home and business across North America. (Most of Europe accomplished the same with state-owned telephone companies.) The AT&T monopoly came with the mandate to provide services even where they were unprofitable (and sometimes for free), with the guarantee of profits elsewhere. That regime ultimately extended Bell Labs' $0 transistor licensing, which made the semiconductor industry possible. Similar requirements were made of power utilities, and that's also the logic behind taxi regulations.

Vancouver's taxi laws require at least 6-days/week service, for a minimum of 10hours/24hours. Taxis are (basically) required to accept all fares and serve all areas at all hours, without discrimination. In return for providing universal service (and to keep monitoring practical), the licensed providers were guaranteed a monopoly (and kept small in number). Of course, as soon as you grant a monopoly, you set the stage for price gouging, which is (as with AT&T) where the government-fixed rates come from.

In short: the prices aren't fixed arbitrarily, technocrats use them to advance designated public policy objectives.

makhanko• 14 years ago

As Uber's similar difficulties in New York show, the governments both North and South of the 49th parallel consider city transportation to be their exclusive domain and are not shy to regulate it instead of looking out for consumers.

In Vancouver, Canada the quasi-government regional transportation authority is heavily subsidized by taxpayers and is still running in deficit. They are not exactly happy about competition from the companies like Uber.

graeham2• 14 years ago

I don't think translink and Uber are serving the same market.

freshhawk9• 14 years ago

You should know that Translink (aka the South Coast British Columbia Transportation Authority) has nothing whatsoever to do with Taxi's. That's regulated at the provincial level.

> quasi-government (sic)

aka, the corporate structure used by participating municipalities to operate a unified public transportation system in a metropolitan area

> heavily subsidized by taxpayers

That's literally what the "public" part in "public transportation" means (gasp! that's socialism!)

> and is still running in deficit

Like every public transportation project everywhere? A valid and important criticism of Translink but at least a robot drives me to work on a monorail every day faster than I could drive there on empty roads, never mind in traffic.

All of this is completely irrelevant to the actual story unless you think that Uber is in competition with public buses, but you don't seem that confused.

> not shy to regulate it instead of looking out for consumers

You've clearly never lived somewhere with a booming unregulated taxi market. Do you take things like not getting extorted, scammed, robbed or raped when jumping into a strangers car in the middle of the night for granted? You can thank the people regulating the taxi industry.

Regulatory bodies, like any group of people given some power, public or private, will try to expand it's power base and will abuse that power but taxi regulation was brought about by people looking out for consumers.

I think this decision in particular is outrageous protectionism but your take on things made me think an adult opinion was warranted.

3pt14159• 14 years ago

The domain of solutions to the problem of rape and extortion by vehicle operators for hire expands beyond the purview of governments. Do not confuse first world economies (and the regulations that people feel necessary to enact) with solution sets. Just as militaries in third world counties are unorganized and corrupt, so can their private taxi operators. Yet since the distinction between operators of taxis is one of regulated vs nonregulated one tends to view this fact as the defining difference, which may not be the case.

ef4• 14 years ago

> That's literally what the "public" part in "public transportation" means

That's not really true. There are counter-examples of privately-owned public transportation systems. Tokyo's subways for one. Greyhound bus lines for another.

The "public" in "public transportation" really just means that it serves the general public. In the same way that you're "in public" even when you're in a privately-owned shopping mall.

patrickaljord• 14 years ago

> but you don't seem that confused.

> your take on things made me think an adult opinion was warranted.

This is one of the most arrogant and patronizing comment I've read on HN, you should have read your comment before posting it, you really sounded prickish on this one.

opendna4• 14 years ago

Translink is completely and totally irrelevant to this story. You'd as accurately blame the New York Yankees for Uber's problems in Vancouver.

nekojima• 14 years ago

Would a long-term promotional deal for a $10-40 gift certificate to Indigo, Marks, BestBuy or somewhere else (or a debit card) of the customer's choice be a possibility to overcome this issue?

cperciva2• 14 years ago

Almost certainly no. Canada is less tolerant of loophole-exploitation than the USA, and more likely to invoke the clear intention behind rules rather than their literal meaning.

biot• 14 years ago

Likely not.

  "Certificates must not replace or interfere with the requirement
   that licensees charge Board-approved rates ..."

Source: http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/ptb/operational_policies.htm#V_5

steve8918• 14 years ago

This is unfortunately turning into an example of "you can't fight City Hall".

In a city like SF, where the taxi cab service is the worst I've ever experienced (empty taxis just driving past you, or never honoring a commitment to pick you up even if you call in), Uber is something that is necessary. But the status quo's long term experience with enforcing a monopoly through laws/regulations, etc, will make it really hard for Uber. Uber will need to spend a great deal of time and energy trying to get those laws to change, which will likely be at a glacial pace, if ever.

I'm sure there's a huge amount of interest for this in SF, and taxi service is so bad, you might even be able to make this an election issue. But other cities like Vancouver I'm sure don't have as bad of an issue, so it might be harder to make it an issue that politicians will take notice of.

mkenyon• 14 years ago

I've lived for years in both Vancouver and in SF. I can't say I prefer one's taxi service over the other. At least in SF, I have the option of Uber, Lyft, and Sidecar.

I would love to have Uber back home, but not for $75 a ride.

wtvanhest• 14 years ago

"I'm sure there's a huge amount of interest for this in SF, and taxi service is so bad, you might even be able to make this an election issue. But other cities like Vancouver I'm sure don't have as bad of an issue, so it might be harder to make it an issue that politicians will take notice of."&

I've lived in Orlando, DC, SF (Santa Clara, but went to SF regularly) and Boston. All of those cities have major issues with cabs. My experience in NYC is better, but I have never lived there. At any rate, Uber is doing well, in part because cabs are terrible.

untog• 14 years ago

This is Uber's issue in a lot of places, I think. They're trying to apply the SF model to cities that doesn't care about it anywhere near as much. I rarely have issues getting a cab in NYC- at peak times you do have to wait, but 5-10 minutes- I doubt an Uber car would get there much quicker and would cost a ton more. I also had no issues getting cabs in Vancouver.

Vancity-• 14 years ago

""" Mary Polak ‏@MaryPolakMLA Passenger Transportation Board is an independent decision maker so gov’t does not influence decision. #bcpoli #UberVanLove """

This makes sense, actually. At first I was angry because there was no system in place for the public to complain/appeal this, but this has nothing to do with public services. If it had to do with buses or other forms of public transportation, then there would be a way to publicly appeal.

However, this is a matter dealing with private companies- as such it makes sense that the PTB is outside the public domain. Unfortunately, this makes it much harder for anyone outside an UBER rep to affect things one way or another.

A cursory glance at http://www.ptboard.bc.ca/ confirms this- the appeals appear to be for the user/company directly, and the only contact to the PTB appears to be snailmail, which nobody on HN is going to use for any reason.

As for the actual rates information itself: http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/ptb/documents/rule_limo-min-rates.pd...

Best they could do is $75 * .15 discount, not enough to be viable.

UBER can appeal for the board to approve company specific rates, but I'm not sure exactly how they'd justify it or what's involved in the process. Worst case scenario is waiting until the rules end date comes (June 30, 2013) and see if a campaign to rewrite it is within the public domain.

opendna4• 14 years ago

For those still following, it turns out that Uber has nothing to appeal because they never submitted an application to the PTB. The PTB did not reject a request by Uber.

It now appears that the PTB barely knew that Uber existed until they started getting hate-mail from angry users.

(The same is true, incidentally of the City of Vancouver. Uber doesn't have the business licenses required to sell bicycle courier services in Vancouver, never mind limousine services.)

The limo drivers and companies who worked with Uber, however, are being hit with fines and other enforcement actions.

simonh2• 14 years ago

How about Uber set aside $20 per ride in a fund and issue customers with claim card, a bit like a store rewards card. If the law ever gets changed so that Uber can refund the money then they commit themselves to do so, perhaps up to a limit of 5 or 10 years.

Soon the city will be full of people owed hundreds or thousands of dollars in refunds, a pretty solid reason to push for changes to the law, and demonstrate to the public just how much they're getting ripped off.

anigbrowl3• 14 years ago

That's a clever concept.

simonh2• 14 years ago

Perhaps, but I'm not sure how practical it is. The high charges will reduce the number of people choosing Uber over their competitors, so they'd be giving up a competitive advantage and the higher margins that might offset it. On the other hand, if the legislation never gets changed they get to keep the money, hence the cut-off period.

I've not idea what the financial reporting implications of this might be.

aneth44• 14 years ago

Great idea. Puts the incentives in the right places.

netcan• 14 years ago

I'm sure it's easier to get people to email or tweet, it might help to also give addresses & phone numbers.

tomjen3• 14 years ago

And this will go on until somebody starts to do violence in defence of these kinds of businesses.

When enough taxi drivers gets shot, they will change their tone.

//Legal disclaimer: the above is a disclaimer of fact and should not be read as inciting violence.

sillysaurus• 14 years ago

Violence begets violence. Violence doesn't solve anything unless you're an entity which can totally dominate another entity. And in this case, the entities we're talking about are (rather large) businesses. So applying violence in this domain is the surest way to undermine your own goals.

opendna4• 14 years ago

Vancouver taxi drivers have as little power to change BC's vehicle hire laws as Walmart greeters have to change the company's sourcing policies.

The taxi drivers are victims of the taxi license cartels: the only power they have is to stop driving and find another livelihood. If you asked the drivers (or did the most cursory google search) you'd find out that they want reform too. #1 on their list: issue more taxi licenses & smash the cartels.

So, no, if "enough taxi drivers get shot" and "change their tone", it still will NOT change the legal or regulatory environment for Uber.

graeham2• 14 years ago

For those still following, "#ubervanlove" and "Uber" are trending on twitter in Vancouver right now.

Mayor Gregor Robertson (@MayorGregor) says: "Getting lots of @Uber_VAN tweets. City Hall not involved, BC govt appoints Passenger Transportation Board. #UberVanLove"

Steve79• 14 years ago

The law is a funny thing. It is set up not to protect taxi companies or drivers. I it is set up to make sure the public has a reasonable priced service that has to provide service to the entire community. The reason you have an hourly rate for sedans is to differentiate between the two services. The sedan business is lightly regulated and is open market. Uber has set up and illegal service and believes they can bully city hall. Problem is the city realizes that it will be destroyed the taxi industry who the city will expect to do all the unprofitable trips. So if you are bogging her about how you want uber - realize this is a skimming operation. The regulators understand this and the reason you have the 75 rate per hour to start. Uber is not a small company. I think is back by vc groups and wall street investors who do not care that much the taxi cab business is based on public need and necessity.

Regulators Demanding Uber Price Increase to $75 Minimum in Vancouver

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