Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/1208_2012_tesla_model_s_test_and_range_verification/viewall.html

by is74 • 14 years ago

115 127 14 years ago

josephlord• 14 years ago

Hmmm....

Yes the range is better than other electric cars but half the article is about range anxiety. Maybe not the best link title.

freehunter2• 14 years ago

It's about range anxiety, and then ends with the relief that they didn't really need to worry too much. 5 hours of driving from an electric car getting 100 mpg-e and matching a BMW M5 stat-for-stat. That impressed them, and it impresses me.

clarky0716• 14 years ago

except for the part where they didn't actually make it to their destination. And since most people aren't going to have the charging station 4 miles from their eventual destination, everyone else would have been screwed. Not too mention they now have to wait 30 minutes to get their last 5 miles.

still an impressive car :-)

timmyd• 14 years ago

Elon Musk is without doubt one the best entrepreneurs around - far less celebrated than many of the other 'uber' entrepreneurs around but with such ridiculously awesome companies.

268 Miles (or slightly less according to the article) is just amazing - less C02, less environmental impact wrapped in a high performance car which - will no doubt - have some detractors as a first iteration against well establish models (comparing it to BMW and Mercedes who have been around for almost 90+ years is a big ask!)

None the less - it's ridiculously exciting at what's been achieved and what will be achieved in the next few years in this space. I give it no more than 3-4 years until these cars will be doing 400-500 miles or more.

elviejo4• 14 years ago

I think Elon Musk is over celebrated...

He was fired from Pay-Pal He didn't start Tesla Motors (that was Martin Eberhard) He didn't start spaceX

He is good at marketing though...

justinhj• 14 years ago

A similar resume to the late Steve Jobs

is74• 14 years ago

While he was fired from Pay pal, the other two claims are factually false.

trafficlight• 14 years ago

Elon Musk was a co-founder who had at least $70 million of his own money in Tesla. And he did found SpaceX in 2002 and has over $100 million of his own invested in the company.

rdl3• 14 years ago

Who (in the past 20-30 years) is celebrated more than Elon Musk is today? Other than Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Maybe tied with Jeff Bezos?

I don't think "many".

ryanhuff2• 14 years ago

He isn't quite (yet) the household name of those people that you mentioned, in addition to a host of others.

clarky0716• 14 years ago

Maybe in the tech community on Hacker News, but ask your mom if she knows who Elon Musk is. Then ask her about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. My guess is that you get a no idea for the first.

r00fus• 14 years ago

In the startup world, more folks cite Zuckerberg and Dorsey. Hell, even Mason and Pincus get more press than Musk (though probably for the wrong reasons).

drzaiusapelord• 14 years ago

If I asked my wife today, I'm certain she's knows Jobs and Gates, maybe Bezos (and that's a big maybe) but no way would she know who Musk is. Lets not mistake our echo chamber for the world.

rdl3• 14 years ago

I think the next big innovation after EV (+ diesel for long haul, and maybe diesel/hybrid), will be self-driving cars. If you keep cars for 10 years, it's reasonable that a car bought today could be your last without a self-driving mode, even if that self driving mode only covers certain driving regimes (auto-park, which the Japanese prius did a few years ago; highway close-follow road-train mode, auto-braking (which we have now in some high end luxury cars), etc.

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

I think your 10 year estimate is optimistic, but it is certainly coming to the point where the cars drive themselves. One of the interesting things about being driven, as opposed to driving, is that passengers rarely suffer from 'road rage.' That is a big win.

Perhaps more interesting will be the transition time, that point where half the cars are self driving and half are manually driven. Will manual drivers become more aggressive because they "know" the robo-cars will get out of their way? I expect it will be less fun before it is more fun.

Flenser• 14 years ago

until the first self driving car-bomb and then they'll be banned.

monkeyfacebag2• 14 years ago

Off topic, but that star plot was impossible to read. Straight up parallel coordinates would have been an improvement (maybe), but I can't help feeling like, with only 25 data points, a summary table would have been even better. I love visualizations as much as the next guy, but only when they are aids to understanding, not, you know, detriments to it.

SoftwareMaven• 14 years ago

I disagree. While it was impossible to understand any specifics, that wasn't what they were trying to show. Instead, they were trying to show how Tesla dominates over other EVs (that are all about the same). And it did a great job of showing that, much better than a table would have.

monkeyfacebag2• 14 years ago

That's fair. I was conflating two things in my initial post: legibility and suitability. Legibility was atrocious; I did not get the same insight from the vis that you did because I couldn't read it. Suitability is, of course, debatable. I find star plots have a fair bit of noise (e.g., line slope) that detracts from the message of the vis. Parallel coordinates are slightly better in this regard, but still require a "discerning eye." However, looking at it again, I agree that a table would be insufficient.

snowwrestler2• 14 years ago

That article seemed filled with anxiety to me.

I don't think anything will eliminate range anxiety other than time. As more people get electric cars and start to build their lives around them, their acquaintances will start to see it as more normal.

It's almost like the very early days of the automobile, when each driver had to carry a ton of extra gas, since fill stations were few and far between. Like any bootstrap, it took a long time to create the virtuous cycle that mutually reinforces the value of the customers and the infrastructure. Electric cars will need to go through the same thing.

The other big issue is the time to refill. 30 minute quick charge is incredibly fast for electricity, but still incredibly slow compared to filling a gas car.

Karunamon• 14 years ago

>The other big issue is the time to refill

I think that will end up requiring both a social tweak and an infrastructure one. Once people are comfortable with the concept of an electric car, it will be only natural to start requesting (and the necessary civil authorities adding) charging ports in standard parking areas.

Imagine in NYC, a parking meter that also has a charging plug for the car. Raise the meter's rate just a bit and you can cover both the electricity and install costs.

drbawb• 14 years ago

Also: I'd be far more inclined to pay for a bit of electricity; rather than just paying for the privilege of leaving my box of steel in between two white lines.

froo• 14 years ago

I'd love to see something along the lines of Intel's Wireless Resonant Energy Link[1] used in conjunction with EV's so that the idea of "plugging them in" can be all but eliminated.

If you didn't even have to plug it in, just drive it to work, park it, drive it home, park it and it could charge automagically in both parking spots - its much more convenient than petroleum and would potentially be a big plus FOR getting an EV.

1 - http://software.intel.com/en-us/videos/channel/general/wirel...

snowwrestler2• 14 years ago

For commuting that would work fine. The issue, at least in the U.S., is the trip to Grandma's house or family vacation--which might involve driving more than 4-5 hours with kids in the car, to more rural destinations. Gas stations are fewer and far between, and the driver typically wants to get filled up and out of there ASAP.

tikhonj• 14 years ago

I can't imagine NYC, but we already have some in SF: http://216.119.104.145/index.aspx?page=516 (yeah, I don't know what's up with the address--this is how it showed up in Google).

I'm not sure if you have to pay for it, but I've certainly seen people use them.

gbhn• 14 years ago

Agreed this is a big problem. If you could pull in, swap batteries, and be back on the road in 5 minutes, that is short enough that range isn't so much an issue. Having to wait for half an hour or more while the car charges is a very painful thing.

Perhaps self-driving cars are a solution: if the self-driving EV you're in runs out of power, you just jump out and grab another one. The transportation company worries about charging it.

lttlrck2• 14 years ago

Quite, it's was filled to the brim with anxiety.

Gravityloss3• 14 years ago

What I don't understand is why don't they put a small 20 kW 500 cc one cylinder generator in cars, at the same time they could reduce the battery size quite a lot and still most trips could be made purely electrically. Cost would be a lot lower as well.

The average power needed for driving is very low, only 10-20 kW and the battery handles the peaks like when you need to climb a hill or overtake. For example in this article they used 78.2 kWh in 5 h, meaning average 16 kW. The small generator could be called a spare energy source.

Instead, all plugin hybrids have big expensive heavy four cylinder engines which defeats the whole point of building a hybrid in the first place. For example 1.4 liters in the Chevrolet Volt / Opel Ampera.

And then Tesla has no high energy density backup source which again limits the usability of that car (and forces you to keep another car). And raises anxiety...

bigdubs• 14 years ago

What you just described is basically the system in the Fisker Karma: http://onward.fiskerautomotive.com/en-us/karma/overview/

maigret• 14 years ago

"why don't they" -> Remembers me of a recent HN discussion ;)

But... Actually you are not far from something. This is actually an approach from Audi: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/03/01/geneva-preview-audi-a1-... From what I read though this approach was not approved in the mother company, VW. Let's see who wins at the end.

jfb4• 14 years ago

Don't care still want.

R_Edward• 14 years ago

It would be an awesome commuter car, but it's awfully hard to justify that price tag for something you only use an about 8 hours a week. Especially if the seats are as uncomfortable as he suggests.

Still... if I had that kind of auto budget, I'd definitely buy one.

It would be nice if the all-electric vehicles provided a port in which you could plug an emergency battery that would take you, say, 20 miles or so, so you could get to a recharging station if you overdrive your range. Yes, you have a range gauge, so you never should get into that predicament, but we've had gas gauges for decades, yet we still see people trudging toward their stopped vehicles with newly-purchased gas can in hand.

jfb4• 14 years ago

Oh, it's goofy, no argument. The only way I'd be buying it is if my income were greater sufficient that it could be kept as a shiny toy. But, oh what a toy.

stcredzero3• 14 years ago

we've had gas gauges for decades, yet we still see people trudging toward their stopped vehicles with newly-purchased gas can in hand.

In Germany, they write you a ticket for that.

jonknee2• 14 years ago

> It would be an awesome commuter car, but it's awfully hard to justify that price tag for something you only use an about 8 hours a week.

You could say that about any luxury car. The vast majority of people simply don't drive more than 250 miles in a day.

aboodman2• 14 years ago

Edit: Whoops, meant Chevy Volt.

Why isn't the Leaf doing better? when I heard about it I was super excited, and if I had to replace my Prius, it would be my first choice.

I think they hit the tradeoffs just right: for almost all daily driving, you'll never use gasoline. But if you have to do a long trip, you don't have to care about range.

What am I missing?

maxerickson2• 14 years ago

The Leaf is a pure electric.

Maybe you crossed it up with the Chevy Volt?

aboodman2• 14 years ago

Yup, thanks for the fix.

swalsh• 14 years ago

I personally, REALLY wanted a leaf. However, there were was only one reason I didn't buy one. I'm a renter. Though Boston is part of a program to install public electric chargers I don't think I can count on 1.) always being able to get that spot and 2.) being able to get a charger at the next place I live at. I'm perfectly ok, with the "short" range. I'm positive 78 miles would cover 90% of my driving needs.

If I buy a home, the next car I buy will probably be an EV. Until then, i'm going to keep driving my Infiniti.

The program: http://chargepointamerica.com/program-info.php

runako2• 14 years ago

The Leaf is a pure electric without a hybrid capability. According to Nissan's website, its range using a new battery can go as low as 62 miles:

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/range?next=ev_mic...

It costs twice as much as the Versa it's based on.

Basically, it's not a compelling package.

clarky0716• 14 years ago

While this is impressive, it still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem. It can only be used for commuting and local trips. I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this. If you can improve the infrastructure with the charging stations it helps, but still doesn't work. I might be willing to stop for 30 minutes once, but not twice. I can eat a meal while it charges the first time, but as that charge still wouldn't be enough, i guess i just have to twiddle my thumbs for the second 30 minute stop. Adding an hour to my 6.5 hour drive is not something I'd enjoy.

Don't get me wrong, this is awesome for filling the commute hole, but many many people use their cars for longer trips as well. Until you can make it viable for both I'm not spending many tens of thousands of dollars on it.

cstejerean• 14 years ago

I would expect the number of people that routinely drive 450 mile trips to be greatly outnumbered by those that don't. There is also the option of renting a car for the weekend for those few occasions when you want to take a roadtrip.

jarito• 14 years ago

Good luck with that. Renting a car for a weekend drive is crazy expensive and varies widely depending on location, time of year, etc. Asking people to pay an unpredictable several hundred dollars for the rental, then pay for gas, several times a year, is not going to work.

I'd focus on 2+ car households. I would love to have an electric that doesn't suck and another car for the wife, traveling, hauling kids, etc. The Tesla doesn't work for me in this case because of its price and the other EVs are not interesting enough for me, but hopefully that will change as the prices come down and the tech spreads out.

acgourley2• 14 years ago

You say, "the problem" when you should say "my problem."

Personally I just drive around the SF bay area. Maybe 120 miles on my longest driving day. For the one-two times a year I go farther, I suppose I need to rent a car, take transit. or have someone else drive. That seems like a reasonable price to pay to have the coolest car on the planet for a few years.

clarky0716• 14 years ago

If you have a spare 100k "to be cool" then go for it. If I had that much money to throw around I'd get one as well. It's an awesome car.

That doesn't however just make it "my problem." There aren't very many people buying any of these cars, so I assume it's a problem for more than just me.

The point I'm trying to make, is that if I'm spending 50-100k on a car, I want it to solve "the driving problem." i.e. if I need to drive somewhere, I'd like to be able to do it. Whether I do it often or not is irrelevant. In my case I actually do do it quite frequently, but I suspect that many people don't buy these not because they actually do this once every month or two like I do, but because they want to be able to if they want or need to.

Maybe it's vacation, maybe it's seeing family, maybe it's an emergency. You need to go somewhere and you want to jump in the car and go there. With this you can't, and instead have to go spend several hundred extra dollars and a have a huge hassle of renting a car. No thank you.

underwater• 14 years ago

You say "still doesn't come anywhere close to solving the problem". But in really it just doesn't solve your specific problem. Tesla have chosen to tackle for the common case; if they tried to be everything to everyone they'd never have reached production.

Don't forget that the Model S costs around $50,000. Most buyers can afford maintain a second car for the kinds of trips you're talking about.

clarky0716• 14 years ago

I'm just suggesting that the general population doesn't have 50k to spend on something that only provides one very specific utility. As Musk just pointed out the other day, they are in a do or die 6 month period right now, and might not survive. The other electric car options have mostly been failures. Clearly I'm not the only person who would like to have a bit more utility for my 50k.

Keep in mind that you don't get 250 miles of range unless the place on the other end can charge your car for you. You only get 125. That's really not that far.

stcredzero3• 14 years ago

I regularly travel 450+ miles to visit family. Cannot use this.

What if someone made you a "range extender" module that attaches to the towing hitch? I'd design one on a detaching cart so no lifting would be involved to install.

clarky0716• 14 years ago

That might work. If I have to wait 30 minutes to charge (and not even a full charge) it has to have a longer initial range than gas. There is also the problem I mentioned above that the place you are going has to actually have a charging station as well, otherwise your range is cut in half. Can't got 250 miles if there isn't a charge there. Then you only get 125.

Finally, not sure how this works, but it seems that "running out of gas" would be a much bigger problem. Can't just get a tank of gas and bring it out to the car. I assume you have to get the car towed to charging station? Are there any other options? Any easy way (i.e. something I can carry) to get a charge away from home?

mcot22• 14 years ago

+1 for this. The cars which combine electric and gas make a lot more sense until we get to at least 5k range with electric. I'm not joking about that either... I routinely go over 5k miles on trips where plugging in for 5 hours would be problematic.

pyoung2• 14 years ago

uhhh, 5k is over 3 straight days of driving at highway speeds. It is longer than the distance between SF and NY. I highly doubt that EV's need to be optimized for these distances, as no one in their right mind would routinely go on trips of these lengths.

Hats off to you if you can put up with that much time in a car, but personally I would take a plane.

kennethcwilbur2• 14 years ago

I've been driving a tesla roadster for about a year. It's my daily commuter.

I plug the car into a regular 110V outlet. I typically get 30-50 miles of charge overnight, depending on what time I get home and when I leave. My commute is only 10 miles each way so it's 100% full most mornings when I get in.

I've verified the car can do 240 miles between cities but you have to set the cruise to 60 mph or below. I keep a gas car for long road trips and camping, etc., but I don't use it much.

The Tesla is very cool. Strangers stop me to talk about it multiple times per week. Customer service has been off the charts.

High recommend. Go buy one.

kennethcwilbur2• 14 years ago

I forgot to mention what is maybe the best part. Surprised the article doesn't talk about this.

When you drive an EV, acceleration is instant. Like, at the same time your foot goes down, your shoulders get thrown back.

Gas cars often take 0.5-2 seconds to get response from the engine, depending on the car & current conditions at the time you accelerate.

You get used to the acceleration in the Tesla after a while. But one year in, I'm still loving the instant response. That's what I really miss when I'm driving the gas car. It's just awesome.

lttlrck2• 14 years ago

The article does talk about this...

ghostfish• 14 years ago

I think you're attributing to throttle lag something that is primarily attributable to torque (which isn't to say there isn't throttle response lag, just it's a minor component imo). Diesels are similar to EVs in the sense that you don't need to let the engine rev up or downshift to get that "throw you back" feel quickly. Depends on the car, obviously.

abjr• 14 years ago

As if most of us can afford one. When you take in to account the sticker price of these EVs, I'd rather keep my Civic and pay for gas.

kingnothing2• 14 years ago

You need to factor in that you don't have to pay for gas or most regular maintenance, and there are significantly fewer parts that will break over the lifetime of the vehicle. You also aren't the target demographic for the Model S -- it's aimed at the luxury and sports car markets.

api• 14 years ago

Thank you Elon for giving us back the future. Tnx.

protomyth2• 14 years ago

Is there a definitive word on battery performance in sub-zero F weather?

CapOpp8• 14 years ago

Multiple Roadsters have been running fine for years above the Arctic Circle. There are actually less issues than with gas powered cars. The second largest market for Model S, behind the U.S. is Norway.

protomyth2• 14 years ago

I understand people use them in cold weather, but I want to know what the actual range turns into. I have read a 20 - 30% reduction in the forums and the regenerative braking is turned off until the batteries heat up.

iblaine• 14 years ago

$105k for the model tested in this article? Price tag anxiety is still an issue.

CapOpp8• 14 years ago

Thats a Founders Signature edition. It's a double whammy for limited editionness and can't be purchased by the general public. Even the straight Sig's are sold out (there were only 1200 allocated to North America).

The regular production model that this is based on is the Model S Performance. It's identical, except it has different color and interior options (because its not limited edition). That runs ~$85k after the Federal Rebate, which makes it cheaper than the BMW M5 (a similar competitor in terms of performance, if not practicality).

The standard MS85 (the big battery) clocks in at ~$69,900 and is a bit slower than the MSP, but still as fast as a 550i GT, which is basically the same price and a similar car in terms of features.

There are cheaper options, but most buyers will be paying $60k and up for the MS60 (few seem to be interested in the MS40) so I can see how that can generate some sticker shock.

But hundreds of thousands of cars in this price range get sold in the U.S. every year and the Model S is a bargain in that segment, both in terms of its MSRP and especially in terms of its 5 year total cost of ownership.

This is not the Leaf that costs twice as much as its competitors. Model S easily will save its owners $10k+ over 5 years (and likely much more). The Model S is much closer to a $40,000 car in terms of how much money you actually have to have available to pay the monthly payment, insurance, taxes, gas and maintenance.

Tesla model S eliminates range anxiety

Related Stories