A SpaceX team is being brought in to overhaul FAA's air traffic control system

https://www.theverge.com/news/614078/faa-air-traffic-control-spacex-elon-musk-layoff-staff-shortage

by ianrahman • 1 year ago

107 116 1 year ago

I have to be in the USA in May. I think I can get all the way to Michigan by boat.

What specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm? What was the bidding process like? Do other regions / nations have more advanced ATC than we do, and what can we learn from them? Is there a problem statement beyond "it has some old bits"? What are the specific goals?

Just feels like corruption, tbh.

r0ckarong2• 1 year ago

Bidding process? Learn from other nations? Problem statement? Goals?

The problem statement is: I don't own this yet. And the goal is: I run everything now.

It IS blatant corruption. A foreign national is using his private enterprises to take over government agencies and is backed by a traitor who only cares about his own money and power.

If there ever was a more blatant episode of corruption it's what's going on in the US right now.

StackRanker3000• 1 year ago

I agree with everything else you’ve written, but Musk is an American citizen, since a couple of decades.

amazingamazing2• 1 year ago

How can anyone take this post seriously when it gets basic facts wrong.

raverbashing• 1 year ago

What specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm?

None?

What was the bidding process like?

What bidding process? Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy

Is there a problem statement beyond "it has some old bits"? What are the specific goals?

Every system can be improved, but I think the current issues with ATC in the US are not of a technical nature per se

ATC is much more than controllers watching planes on radar screens

Also remember this is a system that has been continuously evolving since WWII pretty much (and possibly before) and that one of the recent "breaking backwards compatibility" was NDBs being decommissioned in the US (bit by bit)

ivewonyoung2• 1 year ago

Remember when it's the "special WH employee" hiring his own company that's all fine and dandy

Source that SpaceX was hired for this? The article makes no such claims and has no sources saying that.

PaywallBuster2• 1 year ago

article didn't they they got the project and any project would take months/years even with the best and brightest on the project

get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system

based on this they can come in to scope out a project and send it out for bidding

text04042• 1 year ago

where have they indicated that they will open this up for bidding?

i80and• 1 year ago

Just feels like corruption, tbh.

If a democrat did this, it would (rightly!) be seen as a front-page scandal on the scale of Teapot Dome if not worse.

Cthulhu_3• 1 year ago

...it's literally seen as a front-page scandal on HN and the linked source though.

jillyboel• 1 year ago

Do other regions / nations have more advanced ATC

According to Trump, yes. This is what he said:

When I land in my plane, privately, I use a system from another country because...I won't tell you what country... because the captain says this system is so bad, it's so obsolete, that we can't have that.

- https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2025/02/06...

flakeoil• 1 year ago

That article says Trump is confused.

Trump ... seemed to mix up a plane’s onboard electronics system with the federal air traffic control system.

notahacker3• 1 year ago

I think the intro explaining that this is not true and Trump was most likely misunderstanding his pilot's comments about onboard electronics is the key bit of that article...

Fits in with the first term in which Trump baffled airline executives by assuring them that he'd help solve the problem with the airports giving them the wrong equipment[1], also based on apparently failing to understand an anecdote from his private pilot

There is actually a very long term project to modernise US ATC (less on safety grounds and more on congestion minimization grounds) it's even one in which theoretically a satellite constellation operator could have some involvement as a data provider. But but it's something of an understatement to suggest that this is unlikely to be advanced by an administration lead by someone who thinks he understands aviation based on misunderstanding his pilot and someone whose first foray into improving the FAA was to arbitrarily fire hundreds of FAA staff and whose main goal for the FAA is to deregulate space launches...

[1]https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...

xnx• 1 year ago

There is no more thought process than: "Elon smart and hard working. Government employees dumb and lazy (and also woke)"

ivewonyoung2• 1 year ago

Why is everyone assuming SpaceX is getting paid for this by the government? The article doesn't even say that SpaceX is getting paid by the govt for it, they just put it in the headline and use weasel words in the story to make people come up with assumptions that may not be true.

The govt can be paying those folks directly or Musk himself can be paying them like he did for some DOGE team members.

soco2• 1 year ago

But isn't SpaceX money coming mostly from the government anyway? So still your pockets getting emptied, only over two extra hoops which each take their share as well. All this to bring the magic solution called software engineering because we all know how software consultants always save the business.

karles• 1 year ago

Great. Lets just have "someone" do "something" while they "might" get paid by "someone".

Sounds like the ideal government...

rurp• 1 year ago

Because getting more money and power are what Elon is after and embedding his companies in the government is an effective way to do that.

Tesla stock roughly doubled following the election! That's obviously not because Trump is going to be a champion for electric vehicles and green energy, he couldn't be more hostile to them. Investors know that Elon is going to suck insane amounts of money out of the government with his new level of access and most of that will flow through his companies.

geetee• 1 year ago

Because software developers have never worked in an unfamiliar domain, which necessitated interviewing the subject matter experts to gain perspective on their problems and needs.

stevage• 1 year ago

History is absolutely replete with "technologists" underestimating the difficulty of transforming complex government systems. Health, education, why not add aviation safety to the list.

looofooo04• 1 year ago

What specific expertise does SpaceX have in the air traffic control realm?

Building software which respect to probabilistic risk analysis. This includes techniques such as abstract interpretation and theorem for for the logic of dynamical system etc. I guess spacex expertise in these realm is quite advanced and they do something useful.

SirFatty• 1 year ago

So in other words, you don't really know.

JohnTHaller• 1 year ago

SpaceX has no experience with air traffic control. It's just more corruption. We definitely don't want a startup that "moves fast and breaks things" having anything to do with air traffic control.

Zealotux• 1 year ago

Such systems are designed and fine-tuned over decades of sometimes hard-learned lessons. This is not meant as a political comment, but people will likely die as a result of this.

r0ckarong2• 1 year ago

As intended, then you can blame the previous system for all the failures.

zitsarethecure• 1 year ago

And then you can privatize the entire system. And who will be first in line for it? You guessed it, SpaceX. Corruption from top to bottom.

Cthulhu_3• 1 year ago

I mean the previous systems do need an overhaul, but that should be and is being done slowly and meticulously. The SpaceX people - whoever they are - will have the credentials to design a new system I'm sure, but probably not without breaking things for years to come.

And they can't just rip it out and replace it, that would likely cripple airlines. Which may be by design of course, but why would they want their own people to no longer be able to fly?

looofooo04• 1 year ago

To be fair, a system like ACAS is quite old and modern systems with better margins are currently developed and tested, they use techniques such as logic of dynamical systems to proof that the collision avoidance is working as intended. If one can accelerate these it would be an improvement. Don't know about air traffic control, but Europe seems to more advanced.

exodust2• 1 year ago

Die as a result of giving attention to and upgrading air traffic control systems? Didn't a bunch of people die recently as a result of not intervening in this manner?

The Verge is... often a nauseating experience because between every line they're hammering a side-hustle point with blunt force.

Duffy: "I’m asking for help from any high-tech American developer or company that is willing to give back to our country..."

Duffy: "...learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system....Zero air traffic controllers and critical safety personnel were let go"

Sounds like they're asking air traffic controllers what they need. I doubt Musk will storm in with kitchen sink, light a cigar and put his boots up on the console.

soco2• 1 year ago

Are they asking the traffic controllers they already fired?

dtjb3• 1 year ago

The quote from Duffy indicates that the SpaceX team doesn't have any real knowledge about or experience with the FAA systems. Seems like they're being brought in just because they're a Musk company.

MPSimmons2• 1 year ago

Yeah, his history is basically bringing in people he can trust because he can control them and then making them do what he wants to get the outcome he needs. It's a pattern across all of his companies and endeavors.

dtjb3• 1 year ago

Compared to what, just rolling the dice? SpaceX isn't the only shop that can deliver against requirements.

Procurement bids should be transparent and avoid the illusion of conflict. This is the complete opposite of that. It's hard to take Musk's campaign against "fraud and waste" serious when he's awarding the contracts to himself.

simonh• 1 year ago

As against bringing in people he can’t trust or control, to not do what he wants, and get an outcome he doesn’t need.

I think this move is a mistake, but what your describing there is just competent management.

starspangled4• 1 year ago

The quote also doesn't indicate the SpaceX team is being "brought in to overhaul FAA systems", that seems like a big mistake if that tweet is all they are basing it on. The tweet says the FAA is tasked with overhauling their ATC system, and people from SpaceX are visiting to share ideas, and it seems to include an open invitation to others to do the same.

Political pettiness, and speculation about whether Musk got some special favor or advantage that would not be available to other companies aside, it doesn't seem like a bad idea to get cross-pollination and share ideas with other organizations and fields. SpaceX may not know much about ATC but they probably do know something about monitoring and control and collision avoidance in rockets and satellites.

dtjb3• 1 year ago

Maybe Musk should have done that review before firing all of those FAA employees last month. Maybe those jobs were important.

sidibe• 1 year ago

While the team might not know much about FAA yet, they have high trust and a good working relationship with the guy who knows more about everything than everyone so maybe that's why this will work out great

John23832• 1 year ago

The idea the solution any of society’s issues is “integrate more of Elon’s businesses”, is blatant corruption.

niemandhier• 1 year ago

Reminds me of how it is claimed the Germany’s air traffic control is claimed have been eMacs based in the 90‘s

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26202517

DonHopkins• 1 year ago

Just wait until Trump pardons Jeffrey Skilling, and puts him in charge of the Department of Energy Office of Electricity, to overhaul grid modernization, cybersecurity, and resilience running the national power grid, the Energy Information Administration, to provide power grid data and analysis, and the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to regulate interstate electricity transmission, wholesale power markets, and reliability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Skilling

sbennettmcleish• 1 year ago

LOL ... well that's more than a tad ridic. An additional private generator might be in order if you're in the US.

skrebbel• 1 year ago

I recognize that "Trump outrage" was passé before his term even started, but can we call it out? This is called "corruption", there's no other word for it. President giving sweet gigs to his cronies, just like in Russia and Hungary.

risyachka• 1 year ago

Yeah everyone suddenly has no balls to say anything to Trump.

Congress, courts - silence.

Everyone suddenly is afraid to speak. Pretty sad.

PaywallBuster2• 1 year ago

before coming to say that Musk is getting government contracts due to corruption/special access please read the full article

get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system
[media] will claim Elon’s team is getting special access, let me make clear that the @FAANews regularly gives tours of the command center to both media and companies

UrineSqueegee4• 1 year ago

" Duffy said the team from SpaceX went to Virginia to “get a firsthand look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system.”"

I don't understand how anyone can be reasonably against this? They are not going to just overhaul everything overnight, they are going to upgrade the system based on ATC feedback.

rimbo789• 1 year ago

That is astounding naive take. Musk has a pattern of behavior and this fits it. This is pure corruption.

BluSyn• 1 year ago

We clearly have very different definitions of corruption. Actual aeronautics engineers with hands-on expertise offering advice on how to modernize air safety systems does not fall within my definition of corruption.

UrineSqueegee4• 1 year ago

Musk has a pattern of behavior and this fits it. This is pure corruption.

You must be lost? Please take your Musk derangement syndrome somewhere else.

reddit.com

CPLX• 1 year ago

When logic doesn’t agree with reality examine your assumptions.

The first assumption to examine is the one where you assume that the speaker is credible.

noja• 1 year ago

You really don’t understand?

They do not what they say they will do.

They do not listen. They destroy.

They do not take responsibility, they point fingers.

UrineSqueegee4• 1 year ago

I don't want to have to copy paste my other comment like a bot.

You're clearly not able to think straight because you're too biased.

Space X has about a dozen different military, security and space contracts with the US gov, at least 7 of them under Biden.

Cthulhu_3• 1 year ago

I mean sure, they can envision all they want, and I'm sure they're competent and experienced engineers. But don't let them change anything overnight.

lenerdenator2• 1 year ago

They are not going to just overhaul everything overnight, they are going to upgrade the system based on ATC feedback.

Let's assume that the person isn't so full of it that the sclera of their eyes aren't dark brown.

What guarantees that Musk's team is the best to do this on-time, on-budget, and on-spec?

UrineSqueegee4• 1 year ago

What guarantees that Musk's team is the best to do this on-time, on-budget, and on-spec?

SpaceX has been a government contractor for years, consistently delivering innovative solutions, reducing costs, and achieving milestones that traditional aerospace companies struggled with.

Biden alone assigned 4 national security contract to Space X during his term, a notable one being NSSL.

benjamoon• 1 year ago

I agree, SpaceX has 13,000 genius staff working in the aerospace industry, I'm pretty sure they can add some value to an aging ATC system.

The system is largely developed by Lockheed, Raytheon and Thales (all defense contractors). If there's a legal issue with SpaceX doing this I'm sure you'll hear about it.

aithrowawaycomm2• 1 year ago

The most serious problem is that Elon Musk is the 2nd most powerful person in the federal government, and seems to be giving cabinet officials direct orders, yet he has not divested himself of his SpaceX shares.

I don't understand how anyone can reasonably pretend this is okay. Elon Musk + the birthright citizenship order + Eric Adams means Donald Trump is by far the most corrupt president in American history.

intended3• 1 year ago

We could call this the road to regulatory capture instead perhaps.

mattkevan• 1 year ago

The rapid unscheduled disassembly continues

zitterbewegung• 1 year ago

Before all of the crashes recently with the FAA it has been having a large resource gap (for more than a decade) and that there was a plan in 2024 was on plan to hire thousands. [1][2] This got to the point that they were cutting minimum flying requirements (airlines losing takeoffs and landing slots) [3]. A big problem with even getting people to have a job at the ATC is that it doesn't really pay that well and the main source of hiring of people is former pilots especially when it can have long hours and shifts. I see this more as what happens when you stretch recommended staffing levels to the point where 90% of ATC towers are understaffed[4].

[1]https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/controller_staf... [2] https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-faa-cuts-minimum-flight-... [3]https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/faa-nomin... [4] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/over-90-percent-u-s-airport-tow...

aithrowawaycomm2• 1 year ago

I expect SpaceX to use the same care, patience, humility, and honesty as DOGE:

Trump administration fires and then tries to rehire nuclear weapons workers in DOGE reversal https://www.cbsnews.com/news/doge-firings-us-nuclear-weapons...

USDA accidentally fired officials working on bird flu and is now trying to rehire them https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doge/usda-accidentally-fire...

And some strong evidence that DOGE is rewriting government databases to cover their tracks: https://xcancel.com/electricfutures/status/18920196528358073... (Note how petty this is - DOGE appears to be falsifying data rather than publicly admitting they were wrong! I assume Elon is personally responsible, just like Trump personally drew on the map with a Sharpie.)

DrNosferatu3• 1 year ago

From another continent, genuinely curious about Trump voters on this:

- Does anyone here at HN stand for this action?

- If so, do you think there's a conflict of interest? How do stand on this possible conflict?

ap99• 1 year ago

If you just look at this part:

...look at the current system, learn what air traffic controllers like and dislike about their current tools, and envision how we can make a new, better, modern and safer system.

Do you think there is anything wrong?

aurareturn• 1 year ago

The process seems fine. But why SpaceX?

mysterydip• 1 year ago

Making new tools doesn't solve the understaffing issue which is the main problem. Unless they think they can make a new system which reduces the staff necessary? The only way I see of doing that is introducing some level of AI, which is a bad idea for multiple reasons.

And new systems are so few and far between because of the layers of safety and regulation testing that must be met. Though it sounds like those may be reduced in the name of efficiency.

intended3• 1 year ago

What ?

I’ve seen corrupt and broken contracts. The English is very reasonable.

People make lots of effort to make strange behavior look normal.

Hell - I know that the right sounding clause can basically buy you a full month of televised debate, where people point to the trees and miss the forest.

Why the heck does the president go to Mar A Lago ? His own hotel? And get the government to pay them ?

How the heck is it ok, for the second in command to bring his own team in?

Because it’s in America and this can’t be corruption?

American exceptionalism was built on overcoming basic mediocrity- and it would never stand for such an obvious conflict of interest.

TLDR: of course the language is going to sound good. What do people think the clauses will say ?

“Herein I take an oath that my actions are 100% corrupt?”

Obviously not.

DrNosferatu3• 1 year ago

In isolation, no - but this is not about an isolated topic: a transparent public call to tender, with due process, would be necessary if a government wanted to overhaul their ATC systems.

I personally view the action of giving a task to a company (SpaceX) that is legally under the oversight of the regulator (FAA) whose inner systems are to be overhauled - without contest - as problematic.

But maybe that's just cultural...

rsynnott• 1 year ago

“If you just ignore all the context, is it okay?”

palata• 1 year ago

From polls it seems like Musk/Trump have the popular support...

sega_sai• 1 year ago

How nice to invite the company that is being regulated and fined multiple times by the FAA ( https://www.reuters.com/technology/space/spacex-forcefully-r... ) to overhaul it. This is just batsh*t crazy.

matwood• 1 year ago

So how many planes will they get to crash while they figure things out?

immmmmm• 1 year ago

Looking at some comments suggests quite a few

beardyw• 1 year ago

Move fast and break things.

lnsru• 1 year ago

Sounds really interesting what’s happening there. Long story short: I once applied as a hardware developer for RF systems. Air traffic control systems were one of the topics. So basically digital solution exists, it’s light years better than current systems. The problem is the more or less simultaneous worldwide rollout of the new systems. On planes and airports… Because nobody wants to pay for a solution that supports both new and old communication standards. The old one is somehow enough for the most of the world.

thagerty• 1 year ago

I don't know about the crossover of technical expertise, but this smells like the perfect hedge against the possibility that Congress gets the cajones to defund anything Musk is involved with. You get your funding involved/intertwined with public safety issues, and voila, funding requests are fast tracked.

rookderby• 1 year ago

Please call your representatives and senators. https://5calls.org/ offers some scripts if you're unsure of what to say.

nojvek• 1 year ago

Ha! reps and senators only listen if you drop them a bag of a few million bucks.

rasz2• 1 year ago

Makes sense. In other news some SpaceX garbage fell on a warehouse in Poland yesterday https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62z3vxjplpo

"an uncontrolled re-entry of the Falcon 9 rocket's second stage occurred between 04:46 and 04:48 on February 19, 2025, over Poland".

gaganyaan• 1 year ago

Corruption at this level is treason

A SpaceX team is being brought in to overhaul FAA's air traffic control system

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