Palm did it: better experience than Apple

http://scobleizer.com/2009/01/08/palm-did-what-nokia-rim-and-microsoft-couldnt-build-a-better-experience-than-apple/

by MaysonL • 18 years ago

50 61 18 years ago

scobleizer.com

pclark• 18 years ago

nothing drives traffic harder than an "x > Apple at y!" post!

TweedHeads• 18 years ago

What is scoble smoking lately?

redrobot50502• 18 years ago

Um, while a product is still vapor (hasn't shipped yet, genius) its a little hard to declare it a winner. How many concept cars has GM made that would own ALL other cars out there, only to have them produce a Pontiac Sun Fire with a different body kit? (Original re-make of the GTO, I'm looking at you.)

(Disclaimer: Some of my friends from college work at Palm now. If you're reading this this, Matt, good job, I think your product kicked ass.)

tptacek• 18 years ago

Read it as if he's evaluating the product on the merits, not as if he's predicting the market. The iPhone is going to crush this thing, but it's still a nice looking device.

redrobot50502• 18 years ago

I know, I'm just saying, sometimes features get pulled at the last minute on behest of the carrier or because they're not "stable" enough -- or cost. Until it ships, its hard to judge.

But competition is good, tho. I'm in favor of Palm kicking ass and taking names.

mdasen• 18 years ago

I hope so. As a Sprint customer, I've been waiting for such a device. As a general consumer, I'm glad that others are challenging Apple. I love Apple, but I also like others to be able to challenge them. In my opinion, no one was able to match the iPod for ease of use and size. The Palm pre is at least dimensionally competitive at a mere 2grams heavier and only 15% greater volume (a real keyboard takes up some space).

It's nice to see someone who hasn't decided, "we can make it kinda appear to be an iPhone" in the way that the G1 disappointed with its lack of multi-touch capabilities.

Hopefully Palm will pull it off!

anthonyrubin• 18 years ago

There are numerous Android devices planned for the near future. I own a G1 and I see it as a development platform. The hardware leaves something to be desired, but Android is actually quite nice.

timae• 18 years ago

But Apple did it first, that counts for a lot. Palm's UI looks awesome, but it wouldn't be as cool if Apple didn't pave the way a bit. Not taking anything away, they did a much better job at building off of Apple's innovation than RIM did with the Storm (the phone I currently have - forced to stick with BlackBerry for work).

chedigitz• 18 years ago

I agree. I'm extremely happy that Palm is back in the game. However you can't count apple out, the current iPhone is still 2 year old technology, and I expect the new incarnation to blow everything out of the water.

I still want a pre, since its a gorgeous UI.

rbanffy3• 18 years ago

Apple is swimming in money. You really can't count them off. On the bright side (for Palm), Microsoft is swimming in money too and they accomplished little more than licensing a sub-par Windows CE thing to just about every maker of quasismartphones and crushing Palm in the process.

Never forget Palm owned the PDA market after crushing Apple out of it and created the smartphone market with the first Treos. They did a lot of things wrong, but with adequate funding and adequate brains, they can do a lot.

gojomo• 18 years ago

The Palm Pre looks great -- but has Scoble touched/used one? Until then, definitive judgments are premature.

swombat2• 18 years ago

I hate to sound like an Apple fanboy, but you need more than a pretty phone to dethrone the iPhone. The App store is the best thing since sliced bread. The ever-growing developer enthusiasm for the iPhone is a huge factor too.

And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre. Not exactly a winning proposition.

Well done for getting the design close to Apple's standards (though they had to poach a team of Apple people to do that, all the way down to the packaging that looks just like Apple's), but being a second fiddle won't win this war...

This is not to say that it won't be successful. This Pre is clearly a slick piece of kit. But it won't be anywhere as successful as the iPhone, and certainly won't do "better" than the iPhone.

rbanffy3• 18 years ago

"And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre"

You are counting on webOS being nothing more than a WebKit browser. I am sure that's not the case.

I am also sure the iPhone is not the primary target the Pre is aimed at. There is a host of Windows Mobile, RIM and Symbian slightlycleverphones (it takes more than a qwerty keyboard to be a smartphone) that are pretty much in Palm's crosshairs.

And, sorry to say, you sound like an Apple fanboy ;-) I know. I sound like one very frequently.

jemmons4• 18 years ago

"You are counting on webOS being nothing more than a WebKit browser. I am sure that's not the case."

Even if it's not, the fact remains that apps written in HTML+CSS+javascript (what's more, HTML+CSS+JS tweaked to run on WebKit) will be trivial to port to the iPhone -- not just because the iPhone has a fantastic webkit browser, but because the apps themselves will be trivial.

The Pre, at best, will be a phone of widgets (I like your "slightly clever phone" moniker). I've made my share of widgets, and I know they can be both fun and useful. But after three months of game development on the iPhone, I would hang myself if I didn't have Cocoa. The Pre is going to see twenty versions of Lights Out, but you'll never see a Cro Mag or a Crayon Physics.

When people go on about the iPhone being a "computer in your pocket" they're talking about Cocoa its OS X underpinnings. Mojo and WebOS, at best, put safari in your pocket, and the iPhone already does that for cheaper.

Maybe you're right, and the Palm doesn't have the iPhone in its crosshairs. But I'm not sure how that helps them.

whacked_new• 18 years ago

I bet RIM is a tasty target for the Pre.

The inductive charger/stand accessory is really nice, along with the act-like-a-phone and automatic speakerphone functions, this could easily get much love from the business world.

For those who haven't seen it, the video with said functions is: http://www.kyte.tv/ch/147499-fast-company-live/308668-mobile...

misuba• 18 years ago

All Scoble said was it had a better user experience. You can split hairs about whether app selection should be figured into UX - I think maybe it should - but that clearly isn't what Scoble means.

Being based on HTML and JS does not mean that Pre apps will be served up over HTTP. My bet is they get compiled like any app for iPhone or Android.

Bottom line: the article didn't say the Pre will "dethrone" the iPhone. Palm doesn't need it to; they just have to have a viable business. As of today, they do - I for one wouldn't have said that two days ago.

sounddust• 18 years ago

He said that it is about to kick Apple into the "deathbin of history." I think that's pretty much the same thing as saying it will "dethrone" the iPhone.

I take everything that Scoble says with a grain of salt; he is overexcited and hyperbolic about everything. However, I think that he is right that this is device is special; It seems to be the first "iPhone-killer" which has actually surpassed Apple in some areas, rather than being an inferior ripoff like the others.

jsdalton• 18 years ago

I say this as an iPhone lover, but I think you might be jumping to conclusions prematurely.

Granted, the fact that that iPhone already has an awesome product in the market (version 2.0 at that) puts them light years ahead of the product demo Palm has at the trade show.

But just because something is miles ahead of current competition doesn't mean your safe forever. The iPhone has some serious weaknesses, including but not limited to:

* No background processing for third party apps * No cut/copy/paste * Restrictive application distribution

Okay, true, I could only think of three weaknesses (cause seriously, my iPhone is f'ing sweet), but if Palm could match them on the UI, best them on their weaknesses, and make a strong play for the corporate market, they could be on to something.

At a minimum it would be nice for Apple to sweat a bit so they finally get MOVING on the aforementioned weaknesses.

mattmcknight• 18 years ago

You missed "physical qwerty keyboard". That's my reason not to get a storm or an iphone, just can't type as fast without it. Pre's got the 320x480 res and a keyboard, and thus my interest. The webkit browser might push it past blackberry as well. I had a treo doing touch for few years, but the browser was useless. I wonder how the push email works on the Pre.

potatolicious• 18 years ago

I think it's shortsighted to think that Apple's shortcoming is any of those missing features.

In the end Palm has completely out-done Apple is one very crucial area: workflow. The iPhone has a great UI, but horrible workflow. Anyone can figure out how to do anything on an iPhone, but it's neither simple nor fast.

Palm is clearly not going after "trend" users, but rather the hardcore productivity types who need to get things done efficiently.

halo• 18 years ago

They don't need to "dethrone the iPhone" to succeed, in the same way Apple didn't need to "dethrone Windows" to succeed. There's no reason why multiple manufacturers can't all have viable businesses in the same market space.

swombat2• 18 years ago

Sure, and I agree with that - but that's not the point that Scoble appears to be making...

stcredzero• 18 years ago

If the call quality is good (read: way better than Apple/AT&T) and if the network access is good (read: way better than AT&T) and if they address some annoyances that Apple creates with its highly restrictive user experience control policies, then they will give Apple a real run for their money.

BUT, if they can unify Facebook apps with a mobile device, this could be the start of something really huge. If someone (or someones) manages to unify all of the social networks with a mobile device, this would clearly leapfrog Apple's iPhone. We can access Twitter, Facebook, our blog, and location-aware social networks on the iPhone, but this experience is currently somewhat fragmented, and that aspect definitely sucks. If something enabled by the Palm Pre manages to unify all of the above, then this would be a huge game-changing win.

wavesplash3• 18 years ago

You're an Apple fanboy :) 5 million devices sold isn't a dominant market position in the mobile market. It's a drop in the ocean. The market is still wide open and Palm may just have invented the best crossover device for casual users (small form factor) and business users (real keyboard).

The app store issue is moot. There isn't a killer must have app that would keep people on the Apple platform. Facebook is the killer app for the under 35 crowd and it's integrated into the Palm. The iPhone could take note.

It won't be better? I find the iPhone annoying, large and clunky. I'd buy a Pre today if it was out.

jhancock3• 18 years ago

form the specs I've seen of the Pre, it is about twice the thickness of the iPhone and the other dimensions are only slightly less. I guess you will find the Pre also large and clunky.

Tichy2• 18 years ago

I think the app store sucks and my developer enthusiasm has been blown away by iFarts...

jim-greer• 18 years ago

I would happily trade everything in the app store for a faster UI and decent phone service (AT&T is unusable at my office and home).

adk2• 18 years ago

"And if webOS is basically web-based, that means that all of Palm's apps will be available on the iPhone, but none of the iPhone's apps will be available on the Palm Pre. Not exactly a winning proposition."

And you'd be right, if they do it the way original iPhone apps were done - scaled down websites running in a browser.

But not if what they actually have is a rendering engine as part of the OS and a Javascript API for things like location, sound, data, etc.

Then you have a powerful SDK that everyone and their little brother already pretty much knows how to use.

sh1mmer• 18 years ago

The App store is the best thing since sliced bread.

The App store is integrated into iTunes. When I was building white label digital music download shops, iTunes was constantly the thing that haunted our every move.

The seamless iPod -> iTunes integration is a killer feature. While I think it's not an insurmountable barrier I think it's definitely a factor. They don't just have to beat the iPhone they also need to beat parts of iTunes.

baddox• 18 years ago

And yet, I still can't figure out what's so good or new about the App Store. Sure, it's a centralized place to get mobile software, but it's not hard at all to find software online for other platforms (Palm, Windows Mobile,etc.). If anything, the App Store with its renowned restrictions, simply limits the number of interesting applications released for the iPhone. It may be good for the developers, I can't argue that point, although I don't understand why it would be. And about "success." The Razr had enjoyed more "success" than the iPhone by how you must be measuring success. I measure success by how satisfied I am with the phone, even if no one else bought the thing. I'm not saying the Palm Pre will be great, because there's no way to know.

jemmons4• 18 years ago

"Palm’s bet on social networking integration is a game changer ... That is huge and not many people will get it."

Umm, how can a social anything be huge if not many people get it? The Zune wasn't just social, it was The Social -- and no one got it.

wavesplash3• 18 years ago

"not many people" are the writers/reviewers. Scoble has a good point. The Zune network assumed you were within proximity of another Zune user. That would be cool if everyone had a Zune, sort of. If you're under 35 most of your friends have Facebook accounts and the network doesn't partition when you move 30 feet ;)

bprater3• 18 years ago

I love my iPhone. But giving developers the option to cook up apps in HTML/JS is a very slick move.

I don't know how it'll play out, but any average web developer will be able to immediately pump out an app without breaking open a iPhone SDK tome.

I don't know if it's possible to advance against the AppStore line of offense, but it's a seriously smart move.

I think their next coup should be to create an "open framework" so that other phone designers can latch on to whatever OS-specific hooks Palm plans on using.

I feel like this is critical. It can't be a closed framework.

anatoli• 18 years ago

While I don't disagree that there is something nifty about HTML/CSS/JS apps, I think we've all seen that this is not enough. Remember, first iPhone was in the same position - no SDK, just "widgets" and that didn't exactly fly with the developers. As somebody who's developed some widgets, I can say that there just isn't enough to go on in JavaScript to create full-powered apps, such as the ones available on iPhone now.

More importantly, in regards to this:

"any average web developer will be able to immediately pump out an app without breaking open a iPhone SDK tome."

Any average web developer can pump out a widget for iPhone, afaik, so I would disagree that this is an advantage that the Palm Pre has.

bprater3• 18 years ago

Widget, maybe. I was specifically talking about something akin to a "native" app. You need hooks to the OS, period, for developers to be happy.

Maybe we need a new word for HTML/JS/CSS apps that have OS-specific hooks. Widget is a horrible word.

Dauntless• 18 years ago

Now it's down to better marketing...

Tichy2• 18 years ago

What he writes sounds good actually. I hope very much that he is right, because I couldn't yet bring myself to buy an iPhone, but there are no real alternatives yet, either.

adk2• 18 years ago

I am very interested in all this talk about third party apps for the phone being written in Html + Javascript.

If executed well, it means an army of developers ready to start coding away and tons of libraries and existing apps ready to be plugged in.

If executed the iPhone way, it means mostly crappy mini websites, masquerading as apps, for a while and then a decent native SDK a year later.

timothyandrew• 18 years ago

I think it took an iPhone for the other guys to get innovative like this. I really like this interface, though unfortunately it'll take more than that to dethrone the iPhone; though I don't think anyone can be sure until they've actually used it.

ahoyhere• 18 years ago

Palm has never been as cool as Apple.

Palm hardware has always been "organization pr0n," which only appeals to a small subset.

The iPhone is seen as cool; it is the most desirable phone. People are bending over backwards to afford one (the most iPhone growth over the past 2 quarters has been in low-middle and low class income groups). Apple paved the way with iPods.

I think Palm will have a very hard time selling the Pre to people outside the geeky / careering groups where orgpr0n still appeals.

Even if the user experience is better, the market hasn't been conditioned fr it.

rms• 18 years ago

It certainly sounds good enough, and I'm stuck on Sprint, so I think this will be my phone unless an interesting Android phone hits around the same time.

Palm did it: better experience than Apple

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