How to grow professional relationships

https://tej.as/blog/how-to-grow-professional-relationships-tjs-model

by Liriel • 2 years ago

411 192 2 years ago

eleveriven3• 2 years ago

Abandoning lost causes can be one of the toughest but most freeing decisions in relationships. I once worked with a colleague who seemed completely resistant to collaboration. No matter how much I tried to engage or find common ground, they kept shutting down any attempt at teamwork. But one day, I realized I was investing so much energy into something that wasn’t going anywhere.

bravetraveler4• 2 years ago

Having been/am the other side this... they're probably relieved too. It can be counter-intuitive. Despite nature... there is potential for the desired outcome - with less pressure, honest [not forced] engagement.

Personally, my apprehension comes from within. It's nothing to do with anything 'outside'. My water level is different, that's all. Most reasonable people feel overbearing - it's on me, not them.

eleveriven3• 2 years ago

Hmm, your analogy about water levels is so relatable. It captures how people’s capacity to engage can differ without it being anyone’s fault

alexpotato3• 2 years ago

No matter how much I tried to engage or find common ground, they kept shutting down any attempt at teamwork.

This reminds me of a story from when I was in business school. We were assigned groups for project work and it was very difficult if not impossible to transfer out of a group. This was by design b/c the point was to teach the students to deal with interpersonal issues and group dynamics.

My friend was in a group with someone we will call Bob. Bob always showed up late, argued about every assignment, would debate for hours about why he couldn't do a task etc.

Eventually, my friend just declared "task bankruptcy" with Bob and gave him no work to do. Why? He realized it was easier to give Bob nothing to do and just redistribute the tasks to the rest of the group versus trying to get Bob to do anything.

I should add, it seems that Bob had some kind of special status with the school as he always showed up late to exams, was able to turn in work late etc.

In closing, a lot of this is reminding me of the "CIA guide to corporate sabotage": https://www.corporate-rebels.com/blog/cia-field-manual

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Did they consider kicking Bob out of the group?

anal_reactor3• 2 years ago

We have a guy who honestly tries to do his best, but he's a fucking PITA. Makes wrong decisions, drags discussions endlessly, prioritizes things that don't matter while derailing important projects. I realized I don't need to care about my work to collect paycheck, so I just avoid working with him, and if that's unavoidable, I make sure to write down my concerns, and have a proof that "the team's decision was different from what I suggested"

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

This, exactly. Glad this point came across clearly and power to you!

blitzar2• 2 years ago

he's just not that into you

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

they're*

mkmk• 2 years ago

On the practical side of things, one important behavior that I see people frequently forget is the importance of following up. This is probably the biggest differentiator between relationships that languish in the early stages, versus those that progress along the author’s continuum.

It’s always a bit strange when you only hear from people once every few years, just as they need an intro or career advice or whatever- the beginning of those conversations is usually a bit of sheepish catch-up on what happened after you last spoke with them. Similarly, there have been times when I have felt like a dope after realizing that I failed to follow up myself after a call, and am again reaching out for another reason.

However, when you follow up with someone as simple as “Thanks for connecting me with so and so, we had a great chat” or “I tried that thing you suggested, here’s how it worked out”, you build mutual trust and enthusiasm for a successful outcome to the conversation you had. It’s a genuine and thoughtful way to grow your relationship.

jameshush• 2 years ago

I'll add to this: If you want to practice following up but are afraid of "bugging" someone, start by wishing 1-3 people happy birthday every day. I put every person I know birthday on one giant Google calendar and wish people happy every day. It's a super easy way to at least say "hi" to someone once a year.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

I love this.

sfink• 2 years ago

I tried this, but it didn't work very well for me. Maybe I was just catching people at a bad time? They'd always brush me off with some version of

  "uh, it isn't my birthday"

  "you've said that to me every day for a week, please stop"

  "stay away from me".

What could I be doing wrong? Am I just choosing the wrong people to try to befriend?

blitzar2• 2 years ago

bit strange when you only hear from people once every few years, just as they need an intro or career advice or whatever

This might out me as a psycopath, however, cut to the f'ing chase. If it is a transactional conversation don't insult my intelligence by pretending that it isn't. Obvioulsy this can create a problem as I tend towards "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

If something is within my means and the person hasn't made it onto my shit list I love to help out, it's what makes getting up in the morning worth while. Unfortunately we are all far more powerless than anyone can imagine and actually being able to do more than point people in the right direction, offer advice or just talk to someone is incredibly rare.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

You're not a psychopath: I feel the same. However I still value showing them honor so I often deal with them with more kindness externally than I feel internally, recognizing my internal feeling is my own issue not theirs.

anal_reactor3• 2 years ago

Obvioulsy this can create a problem as I tend towards "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

The fact that most people enjoy exactly the opposite of what I do was revolutionary to me, really explained a lot, and allowed me to navigate social interactions better.

Having said this, I don't see the ROI on pleasing people I don't like. I try to gauge whether someone has the same vibe as I do, and if that's not the case, then I'll be polite but that's it.

polygotdomain• 2 years ago

Psychopath? No. But it's also not insulting their intelligence by having that little catch up. You're asking someone for something that they don't have to do for you. Showing up in their inbox saying "Give me something" might seem to you like you're being concise and to the point, but to the person reading it, there's not much motivation for why they should give you that thing you need.

The catchup, as mundane and obvious as it is, at least signals to the person that you see some value in them and value your relationship, even if it's transactional in nature. Does it need to go on for paragraphs or multiple emails back and forth? Absolutely not, but having some lead in makes it less like you're only concerned about what you can get from the person.

Would you rather a waiter just come up to your table and say "Order!?" or have a little bit of pleasantries before asking what you'd like to eat. There's no more transactional relationship than a diner and a waiter, but most people would prefer the latter.

LoganDark4• 2 years ago

I nearly lol'd at the people immediately jumping to "you're not a psychopath", as if that's a bad thing. Psychopathy can be essentially the selective inhibition of empathy (not to be confused with a total lack of empathy as in ASPD). If you choose not to feel empathy for people who are trying to small-talk you then that could technically be called psychopathy. And also a relatively common symptom of autism! (I, also, hate small talk in many transactional conversations, and am autistic.)

bityard• 2 years ago

I get it, as engineers we value efficiency and truth above almost everything else. But most people are not like us.

They want to be appreciated, acknowledged, and seen above almost everything else. If you call up an old acquaintance and start the conversation by asking if they know of any job openings, you will be seen as someone who only values what they can DO for you, instead of who are they ARE to you. Nobody likes being a tool, they like being a friend, and like feeling that they are doing something good for someone that likes them for who they are.

Now, we ALL know that the call out of the blue to catch up often has an ulterior motive but it's polite (and necessary) to at least PRETEND that the ask is not the main reason you called.

BobaFloutist3• 2 years ago

One of the benefits of playing the game is signaling that you're willing to follow norms even if they don't directly benefit you or make sense to you. Someone refusing to play along with anything that doesn't immediately make sense to them or reasonate with them is a yellow flag, since it shows that they don't value the social contract and aren't willing to humble themselves or make other people the priority.

We're social animals, and when people overtly signal that they're disinterested in the existing paradigm, they're communicating that they're going to be exhausting to interact with, since you're going to have to explain and justify every individual thing you want out of them that they don't already understand, and they'll never just go along with things for the sake of others.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

I love this very much and strongly agree: I hate receiving those sheepish catch ups, especially when I anticipate an ask coming. In fact, if I sense I want to make an ask but I haven't spoken with someone in a long time, I just won't ask them for the thing because we don't have that context/rapport yet: it's a way of honoring them.

Continuing to make it practical, one thing that has served me well was to maintain a list of friends (I still do this) and text them at least once every day just following up or checking in. Some like it, some don't. For those that don't, that's their choice. The topics around abandoning lost causes kind of apply there: not that these people are lost causes, but daily checkins are. That's okay, to each their own. :)

carlosjobim2• 2 years ago

an ask

I only see people writing this here in HN. Is it some expression from old that has been revived or is it some activist thing?

lovich6• 2 years ago

Relationships are like a garden, they require continual, repeated effort to maintain.

It doesn’t need to be an onerous amount of effort, but reaching out to people to shoot the shit once even a year is often enough to maintain the relationship for professional networks at least.

In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people who can’t get past the “but why would I talk to them without a specific reason?” argument and then lament why all of their relationships end up transactional, or even better lament why no one will help them specifically because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Love this. Thank you for posting it!

eleveriven3• 2 years ago

Relationships really are like a garden—if you don’t tend to them, they wither

impendia2• 2 years ago

I think this is tricky.

I'm someone who very highly values social connections, but finds it a little bit awkward to just "shoot the shit". I really enjoy interacting with people based on shared experiences, of whatever type -- but as you say, many people really enjoy interactions which are lower-key.

You're not wrong, but interacting with others on their terms rather than yours can be a bit challenging at times, and easy to get wrong.

the_snooze2• 2 years ago

In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people who can’t get past the “but why would I talk to them without a specific reason?” argument and then lament why all of their relationships end up transactional, or even better lament why no one will help them specifically because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value

Yup, you get a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of small talk, but the reality is that small talk is social glue. People want to work with people they like, and you only get that by having some level of casual ease with one another. Being 100% business all the time is the opposite of casual ease.

Agentus2• 2 years ago

yeah i switched from business to software engineering, and it felt like an sysphean task to develop and keep relationships up in this new hemisphere. thought it was just me but didnt really have that issue with business people. in software it feels like the relationship halflife is accelerated. wonder how to get around that issue with people you literally have to strong arm the social stuff for them. i know doing computer gaming socials and having mutually overlapping projects can help be temporary glue but beyond that, trying to muster things up continues to be a struggle at least with a large portion of the software community. whats the secret to effortless networking and convincing introverts to so social stuff that they are repelled to doing.

beryilma3• 2 years ago

because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value

Why is a transactional relationship considered bad? And why would one consider a transactional relationship as something not offering value?

I don't like small talk, but if I like the person I would try to help them anyway with their transactional request, with the expectation that I might have a similar transactional request at some point in the future. If the relationship is equally transactional in both directions, I don't see a problem with that.

ChrisMarshallNY4• 2 years ago

Very good point.

What's the old saying "A friend in need, is a friend, indeed."?

I like to have personal relationships, as opposed to corporate ones.

Funny story: During the 1990s, my direct boss was a fairly low-key Japanese man. I really liked him. He was a marketing type, so we didn't really have a technical basis for our relationship. He was a decent chap, and I happily followed his orders. In return, he gave me a great deal of agency.

After he returned to Japan, we'd run into each other, from time to time, and it was always a warm, effusive greeting.

Years later, he was the Chairman of the Board of the corporation. I never leveraged the relationship, but my team was always treated well, at our level. We were a small technical team, and it would have been inappropriate to focus on us too much. I had very little ambition to go much higher up the corporate food chain, so all was fine. Once, he made a visit to our office (the US branch). It was a really big deal, and people were snapping to attention all over the building.

He dropped by my tiny little office, to say hi. It was really amusing, to see the puzzled expressions on all the corporate bigwigs in his entourage.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Hahaha, what a lovely story! Really shows what happens when we engage as _people_, not _opportunities_.

gadders2• 2 years ago

A similar thing happened to me recently. A chap I knew at a previous bank when I was an AVP and he was a VP is now on the board of my (very large multinational) company.

When we caught up it was nice to see that he was exactly the same, and remembered me and said hello.

impute• 2 years ago

How did you "run into each other, from time to time"?

This seems to be the key part. There's research that shows that relationships are built via multiple, random encounters. Do you think he still would have dropped by your office if you hadn't had these run ins?

jjice2• 2 years ago

Does anyone have any practical advice to keeping up with former remote coworkers?

My last job was remote with some fantastic people, but as time has passed and the company hasn't done incredibly well, people have scattered (including myself) and I've found it tricky to keep in touch. I'll video chat with some of them once every few months online, but I only have contact with some of them this way.

For others, it feels like the best contact I have is LinkedIn messages. It's usually a quick exchange about how they've been, if they've been up to anything interesting, how the kids are, and how work is - but it's all fairly brief.

Maybe that's fine? Would love to hear if others have better ways to keep in touch with people they enjoyed their time with, but no longer see on a regular basis or live anywhere near.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

What works for me is overt intentionality: I just tell them I'd like to continue to keep in touch with them and ask if it's okay if I sporadically text them somewhat regularly. Some folks have said outright no and that's fine, it's their choice, but others (most of them mentioned in my essay) have said yes and it's a really beautiful arrangement. Sometimes if they don't hear from me, they now proactively reach out.

williamdclt• 2 years ago

It's a hard one. If you lived nearby, I'd say that meeting up for lunch or a drink is unbeatable.

Maybe ask for their help or opinion on stuff you encounter? Whether it's technical problems, interpersonal stuff, personal musings about the industry... once every few months is probably enough, you don't have to stick to professional topics but that's probably a good way to start!

JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B• 2 years ago

People hate LinkedIn but it's my solution. I only "follow" former coworkers and ask how they are doing once in a while, and sometimes to have lunch at noon.

LinkedIn sucks unless you you restrict yourself to coworkers and IRL friends.

HeyLaughingBoy• 2 years ago

I tend to use LinkedIn for that. It's fairly asynchronous and not too "in your face." I used to roll my eyes at their anniversary reminders, but then I realized it was a great opportunity to find out how someone was doing and just do a brief keep in touch kinda thing.

gadders2• 2 years ago

The other thing you can do is "Hey, I remember when we spoke you were interested in XX. I just found this article on it that I thought you might find interesting."

It's a tiny favour, but it also shows you listened to the other person.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Love this!

3abiton• 2 years ago

It really depends on the long term goals, I would also argue that if there are no personal stakes in such relationships it's tough to keep track.

MrMcCall2• 2 years ago

I only skimmed it, but the framework is pretty sound, aside from the fact that what should be the focal point

  Love your neighbor as yourself

seems to be buried at the end, so it doesn't look like he really takes that teaching to heart. I hope I'm wrong about this.

Still, it's better than anything else I've seen on here in terms of group dynamics. It's a good step in right direction in this fraught world.

ETA: And his tech skills are legit. I've been on the internet since before HTML, and his site is very well done. And his smile does not betray any negativity, so he looks like a legitimately good human being. I'm rarely impressed, but am with his site.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

I also hope you're wrong about this, but there's no way for me to know other than what my peers say (https://x.com/kilianvalkhof/status/1864284445584261163).

MrMcCall2• 2 years ago

We can know the truth of anything, most especially ourselves, as that truth is essential to our spiritual grown. As Rumi says, "The Way goes in."

Just before seeing your reply, I had just edited my comment to add my appreciation of your site and visage. In my experience, a person can't fake a smile like yours. People dealing with physical hardship often become close with our Creator, and are then filled with the light of love's radiance.

My blessing has been poverty and learning how to love God and others with all my heart. If that interests you, you can read my comment history and see if you find anything to take inspiration from. Or even contact me.

The Greatest Command(ment) is my family's North Star.

Peace be with you, and may your joy and success be neverending.

I am at your service. We love you.

ztlasg• 2 years ago

I've no idea what to take from this. Large parts sound like carefully planned entryism: Identify the gatekeepers, if they reject you, move on.

The situation where the gatekeepers do let you in but their gatekeeping is not apparent until years later is not mentioned.

Providing excellent work is not mentioned.

Given the political state of software "development", the poster might be on to something, but it is hard to find any concrete advice.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

I apologize. This is good feedback for follow-up work though. Thank you!

whiplash4512• 2 years ago

Hard disagree. I found the post inspiring and practical -- and have 15+ years of management in tech. Keep it up, Tejas!

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Hey, thanks @whiplash451!

whiplash4512• 2 years ago

This is one of the most inspiring and useful read I have come across on this topic in several years. Thanks for sharing!

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

I'm glad it was helpful!

njarboe• 2 years ago

It is nice if your profession has a yearly conference that most people go to. It is a place and time designated to see those colleagues in person and strengthen/maintain relationships.

that_guy_iain2• 2 years ago

I find this quite funny, I've worked with this author at a company and the stories of his behaviour to other coworkers there make my WTF collection. So to find him talking about growing professional relationships either means he's made massive strides in his behaviour or it's a lot of nonsense.

This is the one I always tell people when I explain how WTF IT can be, I wasn't there for it, but it was retold with the author in the room laughing about it. A female coworker joined and on her first day he went up to her and said "You know you're a slut, right?" And there were tons of stories of him saying the craziest of shit.

That company had serious culture problems, from a CTO who would take his anger out on juniors, demand complete nonsense that made no technical sense, and a revolving door of employees who were leaving because of the CTO or Tejas.

Funny enough, in my personal opinion, Tejas was always well-meaning and rather friendly he just would say the weirdest of shit ever.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Iain, nice to hear from you after all these years!

I still say the weirdest shit ever, but now more in line with my value of honoring people above all else. I indeed, by the grace of God, have made massive strides in my behavior thanks to friends like Gabe Greenberg from G2i.co (where I worked some time ago) and others.

I also talk about our shared company where we worked together and the toxic environment in this podcast: https://youtu.be/muS-wQP2lV4?si=XIVpuzc6TzsLUvpp&t=852 if you're interested to catch up a bit.

trogdor2• 2 years ago

Your response to Iain suggests that his account of your interaction with a new female colleague (“You know you're a slut, right?") is generally accurate.

Do you really think of that as “saying the weirdest shit ever”? Most people I know would call it overt sexual harassment.

I’m struggling to understand how you could have thought that was acceptable conduct.

What am I missing?

mung_daal2• 2 years ago

everyone knows your game too bad it is a competition and your pitch is weak

askafriend2• 2 years ago

A female coworker joined and on her first day he went up to her and said "You know you're a slut, right?"

Insane behavior. I'd have to think there's an underlying medical/mental condition here.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

While I wouldn't put it past myself to have done something like that as a young fool, please do keep in mind the author of the comment didn't even see this happen.

And yes, there are plenty medical and mental conditions there that I've spoken about at length, for example in https://www.youtube.com/live/B8e1r2L7iq8?si=pLccCEZ4nfABcs8z...

throwaway134543• 2 years ago

To clarify: you're saying the author (Tejas) himself walked up to a woman on her first day and called her a slut?

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

For what it's worth, I don't remember doing this but it's also not impossible given I was fairly foolish earlier in my career.

dennis_jeeves22• 2 years ago

Nearly every professional 'relationship' I've had has been transient after you stop working with them, with people completely failing to reciprocate even after multiple attempts to reach out.

From talking to people I know that this experience is not unique to me, this appears to be the norm, may be it's the industry I work in : software development.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

I'm sorry to hear that's your experience and hope this article helps that get a little better!

askafriend2• 2 years ago

Allow me to be crude for a second: half the people in software are likely autistic so I'm not surprised they struggle with building or maintaining relationships.

dennis_jeeves22• 2 years ago

Yes, I did figure that out, they are idiot savants of sorts.

chefandy3• 2 years ago

Some of the most loyal and connected colleagues I've had have been autists. I have a lot in my family so there's probably some amount of "safe person" vibes I give off, but in my experience, many autists realize the value of someone they can feel comfortable talking to and confiding in that can comfortably navigate social situations and professional communication. Lots of "I just don't understand why they reacted like that-- what's your take?" kind of conversations. Most of these folks have been younger than me, though, so there could well be some other cultural factor at play: some way that young people are getting different experiences/skills/comfort levels now, or maybe their interaction style/strategy will change as they get older?

mp052• 2 years ago

Honest question: has the software profession not been democratized to the point where "neurotypical" people have come to overtake these jobs from those stereotypical "basement dwellers"? Or would you argue that being on the autistic spectrum provides one with abilities that their unaffected counterparts cannot possess?

mrcptthrowaway3• 2 years ago

Yep, I thought this was a ridiculous statement. Then I got diagnosed in my mid thirties because of sleeping issues. My psychologist needed to evaluate everything about me and diagnosed me as autistic, despite not really having social issues that much right now (it's because the science of social skills is one of my special interests).

spiderfarmer• 2 years ago

It's not that I don’t want my private life to seep into work, it's that I don't want work to seep into my private life.

So I don't need friends that are also colleagues or clients. I already have great friends. I'm a great colleague in every way possible, but I never feel the need to be anything more than that.

For most people work / life balance is already tipping towards work. They want it to be the other way around.

chefandy3• 2 years ago

When I've gotten friend from a job they stopped being mentally classified as a coworkers and started being classified as a friend I met at work. Aside from random bullshitting about shared experiences or whatever, I rarely felt compelled to discuss work with them any more than I did with other friends, and they can be really great at giving frank feedback when other coworkers might not have the guts. Unless there's a boss/subordinate relationship or a romantic connection, I've never seen or experienced any real problems or drama spring from workplace friendships.

bravetraveler4• 2 years ago

I don't even have that many real 'friends' (non-colleagues/family)... and I still agree. Separate is best - even if that means one side suffers. Solitude beats being taken advantage of, every time.

dyauspitr• 2 years ago

I could never talk to my colleagues with the same abandon that I do with my friends. They’re always slightly at arms length to maintain decorum.

chefandy3• 2 years ago

I think that's probably ideal as a default approach. In my experience, when it moves beyond that into friendship, it's pretty organic rather than a conscious change in approach.

reubenswartz2• 2 years ago

It took me a long time to realize that conversations are the building blocks of relationships. Want a relationship? You need to have conversations.

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

Exactly. My relationships got so much better after learning to be better at conversation.

reubenswartz2• 2 years ago

yes, and you don't have to keep in touch with everyone-- find the people you enjoy talking to, and just make a point to do it.

nextworddev• 2 years ago

Don’t try to “network”. Try to “attract” instead. People are jaded af these days.

pphysch• 2 years ago

Isn't that just relying on others to establish connection first?

mung_daal2• 2 years ago

evil people have to draw charts on how to interact with their minions rather than being an upstanding human being who has tried to read a few icelandic poems before...

tejaskumar_50• 2 years ago

what are you even saying

throwaway5752• 2 years ago

If you need to read something like this, consider it a mildly bad sign.

If you think this transactionally, it may actively hurt your ability to build these relationships.

Simply be nice, be on time, work hard. Treat everyone, boss, colleague or subordinate with high degree of respect. Remember that they are human beings and have families, and respect that. Consider everyone in your company as a member of a team working for a common goal, and presume positive intent. Treat competitors and vendors with respect and act ethically. Just have good manners and empathy, really. This is much better because it works universally, not just in professional relationships.

mrcptthrowaway3• 2 years ago

A lesson I learned from reading Mark Manson’s “Models” as an awkward stupid teenager who wanted to get girls is that the world is an abundant one full of all kinds of people: some who shun us, others who love us. When someone reveals that there’s no room for a relationship, they do us a huge favor and free us up to go pursue others who are open to it. I’ve seen great success in quickly being thankful for the data and moving on.

Getting strong pickup artist vibes here. I needed that sort of knowledge too. Married nowadays, would've been single forever probably if I wouldn't have gone through that phase.

It makes sense that you break social interactions down like this. This type of thinking flows from pickup.

It also puts into context that you said stuff like "you know you're a slut" (which you don't remember doing but you mentioned having done similar enough things). It seems you mixed pickup with work. I was a high schooler when I learned it and did it solely outside of high school. So I wouldn't run into these things.

How to grow professional relationships

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