Retiring from the idea of retirement

https://candost.blog/retiring-from-the-idea-of-retirement/

by mooreds • 2 years ago

90 102 2 years ago

I've generally thought like this, that whatever I'm doing in my life, including my labor should be something I want to do and energizes me. But I can't help but think this is kind of an aristocratic privilege. Someone, A LOT of someone's, most someone's, need to operate the oil rigs, drive the trucks, crew the ships, clean the kitchens, operate the sewage system, work under an organized hierarchy of thousands of people doing a tiny part of a massive function, etc etc etc. Any philosophy that doesn't account for the essential labor of civilization has an unrecoverable problem.

bombcar• 2 years ago

There's somewhat of a internal forum question - nobody wakes up saying "today I want to be a septic engineer" but you can make the decision, to if not enjoy it, at least be good at it and be fulfilled.

Happiness is an internal action and if you depend on external stimuli for it, you're going to be perpetually unhappy.

And the people doing the "low-class/low-respect" jobs are often some of the happiest I meet - most of their complaints aren't about the job but about other things, much of which boils down to money and its consequences.

One aspect of the jobs you listed is that at least you feel you did something; trash got collected, a sewer kept working, a ship moved location.

Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.

bryanrasmussen• 2 years ago

There's somewhat of a internal forum question - nobody wakes up saying "today I want to be a septic engineer"

about 20+ years ago I was working at a place that made concrete walls or other concrete fixtures, these walls were then taken and shipped around mainly the Western United States but theoretically all over.

Hated the job and I wasn't very good at it, although I got good reports from the supervisors because I was one of the guys who only called in sick once a month, most people, even the illegals were calling in sick at least once per week because it was a really miserable job starting at 5 in the morning in a cold windy area with lots of injuries and sometimes fatalities.

Anyway we got a new guy joining the team, Rory, he was 19 or 20 I think.

And one day we were standing out in the middle of the yard waiting for a big concrete wall to be picked up and brought to us, and I looked over at Rory and he had this big smile on his face and he was almost dancing with excitement and he announced, because evidently he thought I wanted to share, that this was his dream job that he had been dreaming of since he was a little kid.

I probably looked stunned and disgusted as I said something like "really?!?"

Yep, he explained, when he was a kid he would watch the guys working the big construction sites and he thought I want to do that when I grow up!

So what I'm saying is - maybe somebody does grow up thinking "I want to be a septic engineer".

Thinking about it I wanted to design ecologically sound waste disposal systems some years back, so I guess I could have talked about that too.

vagrantJin• 2 years ago

Many of our "high-pay/high-class" jobs have nothing you can point at at the end of the day - no "I did that" to feel good about.

What a fantastic take. Actually seeing your labor affect the world in real time. I feel there should be a word for it. Knowledge economy workers are highly trained and skilled, but I've always had the suspicion that many of us have a general malaise that their job is 30% actual work, 30% politicking, 40% justifying your salary because the job is now a part of their personality and raises social status or pays the kids private school tuition.

The obvious outcome is overwork, depression, and in some places - sane people jumping off buildings. I'll claim it's quite rare to find stone masons jumping off cliffs because the job has them at their wits end.

rakejake2• 2 years ago

"Any philosophy that doesn't account for the essential labor of civilization has an unrecoverable problem" -> True, and here's where I hope increased automation will provide a sustainable and equitable solution. When managing a sewer or drain means programming a robot equipped with sensors and cleaning tools, then cleaning a sewer is no longer something that requires a system that subjugates a set of people to do this unenviable task for low wages.

Yet, social structures persist in many countries and the technology has not achieved sufficient penetration. Ultimately any debate about work or retirement will devolve into politics and why certain sections of people remain poor and unable to get to a position of financial comfort. But talking about UBI, early retirement etc is doubly important because these problems are always dismissed as aristocratic, but the fact is most people suffer from the consequences.

exe344• 2 years ago

, A LOT of someone's, most someone's, need to operate the oil rigs, drive the trucks, crew the ships, clean the kitchens, operate the sewage system, work under an organized hierarchy of thousands of people doing a tiny part of a massive function,

the market is supposed to pay you a high enough wage until it becomes attractive to spend the time doing it. in fact for some of these jobs, it does.

loloquwowndueo2• 2 years ago

Tl;dr “Find a job you like and you’ll never work a day in your life”.

Maken2• 2 years ago

That's cool until your body starts to degrade.

loloquwowndueo2• 2 years ago

I mean, sure, but that’s what the article says :)

betaby• 2 years ago

"that they will suddenly stop what they are doing after a certain age and let younger generations pay for their salary. That’s something I struggle to accept."

I mean I pay ~40%-55% of my income toward various taxes witch fund pensions among other thing. I would expect to get something 'back' after the age of 65. But chances are very slim what that will be any meaningful sum.

switch0072• 2 years ago

Which country? In the UK current tax payers have only been funding current retirees and other current spending, for, IIRC over 30 years. The idea there is a pot with your name on it is way out of date here

ath3nd3• 2 years ago

That's a problem of the retirement system and the government/pension funds, not workers' problem. Just say the word that the money I am putting towards retirement are not counting towards MY retirement, and I'd stop paying the government/pension funds, and start building the retirement fund myself.

A system where I am funding some random people with the hope that some future random people will be funding me is inherently flawed and assumes

- constant population growth - a constant proportion of less old people vs more youngsters entering the workforce

That kind of system, naturally, is insane and has no base in reality, considering that the trend is old people live longer, and people have less children.

The idea there is a pot with your name on it is way out of date here

To say that I am not entitled to MY money, and that me expecting MY money to be there when I retire is some sort of ultimate entitlement, that I vehemently disagree with. So either the pension funds and the govt have to accept reality and actually guarantee MY money (by, for example, not touching some % of it), that I put, towards MY retirement, or they can f-off, and I can start saving myself.

tonyedgecombe4• 2 years ago

NI is presented as if it is a fund you contribute to for your pension. Of course the reality is any money deposited in the fund is immediately "loaned" to the government to cover current spending.

rlili• 2 years ago

Alternative title: How to cope with the stranglehold neoliberalism has on us.

lazyant• 2 years ago

People with physical jobs should definitively be able to retire, a construction worker is not getting up a scaffold at 70.

BadHumans• 2 years ago

Everyone in blue collar jobs knows the secret is to get into management or change fields before you start getting up there in years.

Maken2• 2 years ago

If only there were enough management jobs for everyone.

tourmalinetaco4• 2 years ago

Maybe, but that’s not always feasible. Change fields? To what? Maybe teaching, but not every blue collar job can do that, let alone not every worker is capable. And not everyone is fit for management either, and for every manager there’s at least 10 workers under them, so there isn’t space for everyone. The ideal is to actually improve conditions, especially factors outside of the worker’s control, so as to allow them to have a proper retirement.

deergomoo3• 2 years ago

It seems like the article is based around the very flawed premises that what people enjoy doing can support them monetarily, and that such activities even can be carried on until death. It all sort of falls apart when you consider the passionate artist who isn't actually very good, or the skilled woodworker that develops arthritis.

It's no surprise that the author is a software developer, as we are the rare cases that are often well paid, often enjoy what we do tremendously, and the job has few physical requirements that would exclude an elderly person (though age discrimination is very real). The author's points come from a very privileged position, and I'm not sure they realise it.

I'm all for not giving up on life at retirement age, but even though I like my job I sure as hell don't want to be doing a 9-5 when I'm 80. I don't even really want to be doing it now.

SamuelAdams• 2 years ago

You could also build software for fun, ie contribute to open source.

However remember that there are several other disabilities that can occur as you age. I know several people who developed Alzheimer's or MS around their 60’s. There is no way they could work a programming job today.

dingnuts• 2 years ago

contributing to open source isn't fun. it sucks. it might be good for your career but it is developing software in the most hostile environment for the most entitled users

I have a side project. wanna see the code? you can't! screw you it's mine!

also MS is a wildly different disease than Alzheimer's. many women especially develop MS in their twenties and it is not always progressive and it is certainly not life ending like Alzheimer's

spreading this kind of misinformation about MS makes it difficult for sufferers to find work if their disability is visible because their level of disability can be assumed to be greater than it really is. MS is extremely variable from one person to the next.

johnisgood• 2 years ago

Developing MS at age 60 is nothing, they may or may never have relapses. I have had MS since age 21, with thankfully only one relapse, so far.

Jcampuzano2• 2 years ago

I'm a software developer myself and had a rude awakening into the life of someone who loves what they do but can't do it due to a physical limitation recently. I'm lucky that It is fixable and I'm in the process but it makes me dread a time when I have something that can't be fixed.

I developed Cubital tunnel syndrome in both elbows which leads to extreme numbness and pain in my pinky, ring finger wrist, elbow and top of the hand when doing any activity requiring using my hands or bending elbow for even small minutes of time. Luckily I can get surgery for it, but I've still had to wait this long going through months of other prevention measures that didn't work at all before I was finally allowed to consider it.

Even though its only been 6 months, its been an extremely depressing ride not being physically able to do basic daily things including my job and passion of developing/learning about development without pain.

Its made me scared for the day when I wont be able to do this and many other things anymore since even just this short 6 months has been a rude awakening into the life of someone dealing with extreme pain in just daily life, and sympathize for people who are going through the same things.

For many people "retiring" doing what they love just is not possible.

tough• 2 years ago

Never used this but have seen talon recommended

https://talonvoice.com/

hoping you recover soon

craydandy• 2 years ago

I had pinched ulnaris nerve in both elbows a few years ago. The symptoms were pretty much the same as you describe. It took two operations and more than a year to recover. The symptoms started to creep back this year, probably because I started to hit the keyboard more. Luckily I found a book about trigger points [1] and releasing the triceps trigger points, especially #3 removes the symptoms. The book is godsend; I've found help from it to so many other issues too.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Trigger-Point-Therapy-Workbook-Self-T...

paulddraper• 2 years ago

Interests can change

candost3• 2 years ago

I am the author and I am very much aware of my privileges. I also know that I am writing these things not to everyone out there but to people like me.

That said, I am also aware of my privileged situation can change anytime. That’s why I am focusing on what I can do to cover myself if I lose these privileges while I still have them. Most probably, I don’t know and not aware of a lot of things as well and I am willing to figure out on the way, lose something, earn something else, but never give up.

I don't even really want to be doing it now.

This sentence is what exactly I want to avoid in my life.

manmal2• 2 years ago

How do you see our profession evolving until and past your retirement age? Are you not worried that, besides the LLM revolution (and whatever comes next), ageism will cause you to be out of a job at say 60 at the latest?

deergomoo3• 2 years ago

Fair enough, it sounds like perhaps I misjudged your intent and I'm sorry to have implied any ignorance on your part. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

thayne2• 2 years ago

I used to think I would work until I died or was unable to work.

I now realize that it would be nice to retire, so that I can work on the things that I want to (which in my case would be open source projects) instead of what my employer tells me to.

You could argue if I was self employed, I could do that now, but that would mean I have to worry about finding people to pay me for my work (as a contractor or freelancer) or running a business (as a founder). And I have zero interest in doing that.

exe344• 2 years ago

you can also work part time for food and shelter and spend the rest of your time doing what you enjoy!

bradlys4• 2 years ago

Do people really enjoy this industry that much? I get the feeling we have a lot of outspoken people who write a lot but almost everyone I’ve ever met is trying to get the fuck out. They want to get their payday and FIRE. They’re not interested in staying if they have the financial means to leave. Part of the distaste for the job and industry is what I think fuels the FIRE movement being so full of tech workers. If you’re in medicine or law or finance, you can do the same but you never hear of FIRE anywhere near the same level in those industries.

deergomoo3• 2 years ago

Personally I've enjoyed it a lot, at points, mostly when I'm permitted to keep my head down and build useful things or meaningfully improve existing things.

That said, I'm based in the UK so I don't think FIRE* is so prevalent here, because our salaries are much lower and there are barely any opportunities for a big payday compared to the US. I make 2x the median UK salary as a lead dev and live in a fairly low cost of living area, but that only puts me at the same salary as a junior dev in much of the US. I'm not paying my mortgage off any time soon.

* Financial Independence, Retire Early for anyone wondering—I had to look it up as I wasn't familiar with the term

hamandcheese• 2 years ago

My friends in finance don't have a management chain 4+ levels deep and idiot product managers and product marketers calling the shots.

Most people I know love the craft, but hate the industry.

charlie03• 2 years ago

Usually because medicine, law, and finance comes with huge student debt. There's also a certain level of prestige expected with those profession that it seems par for the course to buy a $1M house, a car with a 6 figure price tag, etc. Those two things probably make FIRE hard to fathom for most of those people.

mikestew• 2 years ago

The industry? Meh, not so much, as other sibling comments elaborate on. But the work? Oh, I do/did love the work. I retired in May, after like 35 years in software. I've been programming computing machinery since I got my Atari 800 back in, what, 1981? I still enjoy even in retirement, as just this morning I was wondering how to automate around a limitation of Square's offering for a non-profit I help out with. And as I was pondering that, I found myself looking forward to doing the work, 'cuz puzzle-solving, amirite?

But the industry? I'd bet one of my old paychecks that there are plenty of doctors and lawyers that will say the same thing: "love the work, hate the industry". Because MBAs didn't just ruin software development, you know.

m463• 2 years ago

There's an important point to consider that might align with the author. Maybe you shouldn't "work work work, retire".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7307664/

"Early retirement was not associated with a higher risk of mortality. On-time retirement was associated with a higher risk of mortality, which might reflect the healthy worker effect."

(but it also says "It is important to consider information on prior health and demographics when studying the association between retirement and mortality to avoid biased findings.")

I kind of suspect it might be imagination and realistic planning.

You should imagine retirement early and if you can't afford it, try to mentally do it. and then transition while staying happy and healthy.

If you work work work, then "retire", you might just jump into the laz-y-boy at retirement, become comfortable, less active and adopt unhealthy habits.

latexr• 2 years ago

the passionate artist who isn't actually very good

Your point stands even if said artist is good but can’t network. Hannah Gadsby makes that point about van Gogh in Nannette¹: people actively avoided him, so he didn’t find success in life.

¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Gadsby#Nanette

Yeul2• 2 years ago

Funny I very rarely see anyone older than 40 in the IT industry. Where are these happy 70 year old coders hiding?

mystified5016• 2 years ago

At home because no one wants to hire them over age discrimination.

wormius• 2 years ago

Working on COBOL in a fortune 500 company.

pelasaco3• 2 years ago

Sure, let's start by flipping the situation: the state should stop requiring me to pay into the retirement system, and then I'll agree to handle everything on my own. Maybe I'll retire, maybe I won't—but right now, I have no choice. I have to pay a mandatory contribution to the state every month, so it's fine to expect a good retirement plan from the state.

tourmalinetaco4• 2 years ago

We still need to force people to pay into retirement funds, but we can do so in a way that ensures people get what they put in and then some, rather than receiving scraps from the government. Ideally, rather than pay income tax, it’s put into a pre-tax retirement account under your control akin to a 401k, and invested into passive long term investments. Once the person withdraws the money, then sure the government can take a cut, but the federal government taking 25% of my income just for existing, with no benefit to me? Fuck that.

pelasaco3• 2 years ago

We still need to force people to pay into retirement funds

Who exactly is 'we'? Your idea doesn't hold up. Many countries have tried similar systems, but they often end up with poor interest rates. In the end, it's just a cheaper way for the government to borrow money. Your money would be much better if allocated in some ETF or even pure bonds...

tonyedgecombe4• 2 years ago

The trouble is many people will opt out but still expect a handout when they find themselves destitute. Personally I like having a mix as the state pension has a different risk profile compared to other investments.

jillesvangurp• 2 years ago

It's nice to have the choice to continue working and I certainly hope to have that. But not everybody does. And the reality is that a lot of people are kind of worn out and past their prime when they hit retirement age. And if they aren't, a lot of people start having all sorts of health issues that make work a lot less fun and interesting. Strokes, heart issues, Alzheimer's, etc.

These are the things that used to cause people to die relatively quickly but that's no longer the case. My father had a stroke and he might live another 20 years. He's definitely still active but there's no way he'd be doing his former job at this point or at least not at nowhere near the same level.

That's not to say retired people are useless but it does mean you have to be realistic about their ability to earn incomes for very long after they retire. Or more prudently, your own ability. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Pensions are a form of insurance that is worth having.

With chronic over employment, there is a solid argument for making retirement age more flexible though. Continue working and have more disposable income when you reduce how much you work or eventually retire. The current system is not very flexible and actively disincentivizes people to work beyond a certain age.

My father actually retired early because his employer was downsizing and it was cheaper for them to settle for early retirement than it was to outright fire him. That same arrangement made it completely unattractive for him to find other work. He was being paid to retire, not to take another job. Another job would have eroded his pension. That's a weird incentive. Good for my parents but not necessarily for anything else. But 60 is definitely young to retire like he did. He's 77 now.

rakejake2• 2 years ago

The usual retort to this is of the form "this is a privileged position to take. People who drive cabs, work construction and clean drains can't even think of this".

I agree, but we should recognize that we are moving more and more towards a world where automation enters every facet of our life, every step of the supply chain. Hitting a pause once in a while and just reflecting on how life has changed will do a lot towards changing opinions on work and retirement. While FIRE is achievable (at least until now in software), what I think I want is a long career to work on hard problems with other people of the same wavelength.

Easier said than done, but tbh we have a lot of free time today that we waste in social media as the OP says. Consciously slowing down a bit so that one can run a longer, more focused, perhaps less financially lucrative race but also one that has a higher probability of being fulfilling and putting us in touch with good people is something all of us, the well-paid software guys, must aspire to and put into practice.

azlev• 2 years ago

Do companies want older people? In my experience, not so much, so even if you want it's not one side choice.

greenthrow• 2 years ago

Author sounds young. As you get older your interests may change. I used to really enjoy writing software. 35 years into it, I no longer get any joy or sense of accomplishment. Even when I write new things that result in patents (so don't tell me I need more interesting challenges.)

Now what brings me joy is spending time with my nieces and nephews. This is not a thing that can or should be monetized. I need to build up a retirement so I can truly enjoy the things I care about most in life.

tourmalinetaco4• 2 years ago

I’ll go on a limb and say most people writing articles like this are young, inexperienced, and living in the moment rather than seriously thinking of their future. They think “wow, this is fun, I have no pains, I could do this forever”, but don’t realize yet what that truly means. Of course, I’m still rather young myself, so perhaps it’s the pot calling the kettle black.

MattPalmer1086• 2 years ago

That was certainly me 25 years ago. I said I couldn't conceive of not wanting to work when asked about retirement planning by a financial advisor.

Well younger me... I can now. Or at least, to be able to choose what I do regardless of the money.

indigodaddy• 2 years ago

Man, that font really bothers me..

kylehotchkiss• 2 years ago

One of my fears is quickly losing cognition after retiring. I'm a WFH developer so I'm hoping that lets me extend my working years a bit longer than others can, but I need something to occupy my mind 30 hours a week after that. The idea of just ending up in The Villages driving around golf carts for the rest of my days seems very ominous.

My hope is to find a problem space to research in, there's a lot of capacity in unsolved problems to improve a lot of lives around the world. People die every day from diseases that we've solved in the west 50+ years ago, and there's a lot of work that can be done to make sure humanity has access to existing solutions for example.

lokimedes• 2 years ago

For hire: PhD physicist, 25 years of general programming and systems engineering experience, MBA, creative and dreamy: seeking a benefactor to support a modest lifestyle, and total creative freedom. You will own all IP generated. No retirement needed, just an inexhaustible line of credit.

Any takers?

iamflimflam1• 2 years ago

The most telling sentence in the whole piece:

My retirement day is practically at least thirty years ahead.

When you are young, old age seems a long way away.

Peteragain• 2 years ago

Two things. At 65 I'm applying for a job for the first time in 12 years! As a man I have had the luxury of being married to someone with better career prospects than me so I put my career on hold (p.s. there is no such thing - it's dead in the water) to do family things. I've done a great job. I've contributed to society and done it in a selfless way. All those girly things like PTA, cake stalls, committee meetings ... and my peers have thought I really ought to get a job. Well, fuck off is the expression that comes to mind. I am now going to get a job because I am bored, not because I feel I should contribute - I've done that. And I don't think I am exceptional. People get bored and contribute independent of reward. So I'd suggest UBI is the answer to many of our woes. Everyone gets to do what they like doing; if you're indifferent, but like the things money can buy you'll do the crap jobs if they pay enough. What is more, with guaranteed income and proportional tax on other income, businesses would get a few more people willing to work for a "non living wage" - too few hours or too low income to live on, but enough to play the pokies or a good night out. And there would be no need to think about welfare or pensions. Sure a percentage will not lift a finger, but let them. They are a drop in the ocean compared to the "financially independent", the "house wives" and "pensioners" who can already do that if they wanted to.

rvba2• 2 years ago

UBI seems like a method to tell the middle class to not complain that they dont own anything anymore, because they get their (probably pathetic) dole.

slowmovintarget• 2 years ago

I must be developing paranoia in my middle-age, because the first thing my brain suggested to me on seeing that headline is that this is the first droplet in the deluge of trying to convince people that they must work until they die on the job.

I want to retire from my day job. I have work I'd like to do of my own that isn't lucrative enough (by a very long ways) that I can't spend sufficient time on now. That will be my "retirement job."

I don't want to work at my current job until I keel over.

nojvek• 2 years ago

There are three fundamentally contradictory paradigms.

1. human lifespan has doubled in last 100 years. Lifespan is still increasing but healthspan isn’t at the same rate. This means in the later years, we are spending a fortune on healthcare costs to extend lifespan a few more months.

2. Retirement age is fixed-ish in most countries. With rising lifespans, this means more years are spent draining on retirement income.

3. Lower birth rates means fewer people working to pay for retirees.

Something has to give. If we have fewer longer living people, then we need them to work more years.

Ideally retirement age is (average lifespan - 20 years) and is adjusted every few years.

It is a tough pill to swallow. Keeping the status quo means current generation will pay for boomers but by the time they retire, the pot runs out.

In US they say, social security will be drained by 2035 if nothing changes.

LUmBULtERA• 2 years ago

In US they say, social security will be drained by 2035 if nothing changes.

Who is "they"? This wording implies social security will be at $0. My social security statements say that at my retirement age (a bit over that) that social security is funded something like 76%. Not nothing.

ath3nd3• 2 years ago

Something has to give. If we have fewer longer living people, then we need them to work more years.

That's only on the premise that these young people are paying for my pension, which is a falsehood. I am the one who has paid for my pension. It's not my problem that the government/pension fund ran away with my money in the hope that some future shmuck will put more in their pyramid scheme, and then they can guarantee my payoff. That model is obviously not sustainable with people living longer and people having less children.

You know which model is sustainable? The model where I pay each month for my pension, and instead of these money fully disappearing immediately to pay for somebody else's pension, the government/pension fund is required to keep a certain % liquidity on that money, so that I am not dependent on any future generations entering the work force. Banks work like that, by law they are guaranteed to have a certain % of everybody's deposits in terms of liquidity, I don't see why pension funds don't emulate this.

The government and the pension funds should be, however, transparent whether they can change to a sustainable model or not, and that change shouldn't come in terms of draining more money from younger generation's taxes, nor by raising the retirement age. It should only come from the govt/pension funds speculating less with our money, because it's their responsibility to make it right, and not ours.

tonyedgecombe4• 2 years ago

It's not really about the money, that's just the mechanism of exchange.

The root of the problem is a growing retired population depending on a shrinking group of workers to provide the goods and services they need.

xg15• 2 years ago

For me, the purpose of life is searching for that purpose. That’s the job. The chase, the utter determination in the effort of search, the relentless seeking. It forces you to adapt to the changing world, not build expectations for the future that one day all struggle will stop. It demands training like an athlete for that purpose, enjoying the time with an ever-changing priority list. It asks you not to lose time with seemingly innocent but utmost time-wasters like Facebook, Instagram, or the latest news. It invites you to make the journey more enjoyable by building things that matter—like real relationships with family and friends and community around rituals—and seeking timeless ideas. To be able to do all, it also tempts you to make the journey safer.

Sounds to me a bit like the grown-up version of "The real treasure is the friends we made along the way".

How do you do all the things the author wants you to do while also having a day job and trying to keep your boss happy?

greenie_beans• 2 years ago

my former therapist thinks you should work until you die. but he is a good example of why you shouldn't (grandaddy needs naptime while his patients are sharing their traumas)

CobaltFire• 2 years ago

Reading this article and the discussion leave me conflicted.

I retired early (40) from a career that most wouldn’t expect that from. I have two pensions and some modest investments that allow me to live quite well a couple hours from SF, but would be scraping by there.

I can no longer do the career I was successful in due to health degradation from exactly that career, but software was always a part of it so I’m pivoting to that to keep myself engaged and enjoying life.

So the comments here on health precluding this idea are very real. I also took about a year to get through the mental ramifications of my entire career being gone, as well as the entire community I was part of (due to moving). I don’t think this is talked about enough, especially in FIRE circles online. Having talked to a few other early retirees you can quite easily find that you no longer fit with the friends you’ve had for years, either due to interests diverging, spending abilities diverging, or plain old jealousy from some of them.

At the end I elected to pursue more education and (somehow) managed to get into a solid graduate program.

So I do think staying active in retirement is something you should plan, and this is even more true for early retirement. The type of partial work that I see talked about here is possible, but not generally at the earnings potential of your primary career. Things like being a substitute teacher, poll worker, etc. all pay and in California you can make around $15k/year fairly trivially doing that. If you want to donate plasma that’s another $5k/year or so; I haven’t done it but know a few early retirees that do for health reasons (reduction of forever chemicals).

The key to those jobs is that they won’t elevate your stress level like trying to find a salaried job or gig work will.

That’s a quick set of thoughts from someone who actually did execute on this type of life path and is living it in close proximity to SF, and without any type of software career.

randcraw• 2 years ago

The OP is 30 years away from retirement yet is posting on how to do it right... That's bold.

For me, retirement is imminent (I'm 67), but I can't imagine how ugly those prospects would look now if I'd not prepared for decades. Leaving a career with no income stream other than $35k/year in Social Security means you must continue working in whatever diminished role is available to you at age 70+. If that sounds bad to you, well, you got it right.

In the US, that would probably be working on your feet in a minimum wage role ($25k/year), with inadequate health insurance (Medicare A with Medicaid, if your state offers the latter), living in a low end apartment or mobile home, with declining health. In short, without substantial preparation, life after retirement will _suck_. I wouldn't wish it on an enemy. But this is exactly where 30-40% of Americans will be after 65 since they were unable (or unwise) to prepare for the final 20 years of unemployment that inescapably come at the end of life (AKA retirement).

Until some sort of organized coordinated alternative to old-age-demotion comes along, old folks are on their own in America. I recommend that everyone take life post-career deadly seriously long before it happens and prepare for it, or your 'golden years' will eat you alive.

linotype• 2 years ago

Agree completely. Author is probably in his/her late 20s or 30s. Let’s see how they feel after working another 10-20 years.

hu3• 2 years ago

I wonder how the situation compared to economically strong European countries.

ath3nd3• 2 years ago

that they will suddenly stop what they are doing after a certain age and let younger generations pay for their salary

This is the worst take I have seen in a while. First of all, in both Germany and Türkiye, we put aside a part of our monthly remuneration towards our pension. So when we retire, there is already a sizable sum that we have accumulated via our own work, nobody else is 'paying for our retirement'. It's our own money.

There is no some mythical younger generation working to pay our pensions, we have earned this money, it belongs to us, and we have all the reason to expect to not have to work in our old age.

The problem is only that in the current pension model, your money are not kept tight by the government or the pension fund, but instead spent or speculated with on the stock market. In this model, when you retire, it's not your money you are actually getting, but the pension contributions of the younger generation, because your money has been long spent. But that's a problem of the model, not some unsurmountable obstacle that the author of the article tries to make you believe.

Heck, if the pension fund or the government can't get it right, they can f-off and we can start saving for retirement on our own. But they say they can, so they either have to stand behind their promises, or reorganize to the new reality of people living longer and less young people entering the workforce. If that means that the government needs to guarantee a certain % of our pensions as a collateral, so be it. The world can benefit from less stock market speculation and more monetary resilience.

The myth that the younger generation is somehow paying the pensions of the old and that it's somehow a problem applies only if you don't ask: where did all the money we contributed towards our pension go. It's just a fault in the system that our own pension money is spent recklessly by the governments' bad calculations. The solution to that is emphatically not, as the author mentioned, 'expecting to never retire', but by demanding that our pension money is responsibly handled and not spent in the expectation that future schmucks will also join in this pyramid scheme.

mikhailfranco• 2 years ago

The article appears very strong, and true, and it is. Perhaps everyone with some flickering self-recognition will see themselves as the protagonist in the story.

I definitely went through this transition, no earlier than 30, but certainly before 40. I think most self-aware people do.

But the recognition usually comes at a stage of life when you literally have every responsibility: mortgage, spouse, kids, beholden to some Dilbert-boss, and carrying the world on your shoulders (not sarc - Atlas, please don't shrug).

You have no honorable options to escape. Every dimension of escape is betrayal. Don't believe me? Try it and see. Face it, own it, own everything. Wait, push harder, postpone deliverance.

The decline of the hope and expectation that work could provide fulfilment happens gradually, then suddenly (as Hemingway once said about bankruptcy). But as I retire, I still code, I always will. It gives me joy.

The temptation is then to tell all your younger successors about the valuable insight you've acquired. What you have learned is very very important. But it cannot be told, or taught, it has to be experienced - or not.

My advice to parents is to treat your children as ~20% older than they are. By the time they hit aggravated puberty, you are already talking to them as adults. They don't deserve it, but they will thank you later. And even if they don't, you have no regrets, you showed them the shining path, the parental star of piercing brightness.

Show, don't tell.

Just be the best you can be at every interaction point with the world. Whatever person or problem is in front of you right now - just be the best you can possibly be. Don't think about the future. If you inevitably fail, from time to time, as you will, learn from failure, train what you wish you could do, and be better next time.

Be the absolute best in the grave. What better accolade?

Show, don't tell. Forever.

Of course, I contradict my own advice. We are all unfathomably contradictory.

"I contain multitudes"

Walt Whitman presaging Hesse, Gödel, or perhaps Wittgenstein - how can I tell what cannot be told?

I tried my best.

ein0p• 2 years ago

This reminds me of a meme where there are two people shown side by side in a debate about euthanasia, the young dude is enthusiastically for, and the old dude against. The person who wrote this is quite obviously young and he thinks he will be able maintain his motivation to work indefinitely. That is not the case for most people in my observation. Sooner or later you'll want to down-shift at least, if not exit the rat race entirely, if you have such an option.

mikewarot• 2 years ago

I liked making gears. The pay and commute sucked, but it was rewarding knowing that things I helped make would long outlast me. For me, I knew that if I could just hold on until I got social security, all would be well. I'd have lots of time to relax, and not have to worry about money any more.

Then I got long Covid, and was ripped out of the work force in 2020, at 56 years old.

It's no fun having nothing to do, and no purpose. The resonant idea for me from the article is to find your joy outside of work now, while you still have the time to explore the possibilities.

All those things that are totally fun for a weekend off are not sustainable for long term happiness. It's like ice cream... great stuff when you're a kid, and it's a treat... and just ok when you're an adult and could eat it exclusively.

I wish I had engrossing hobbies that could fill my days. I've watched everything interesting on Netflix, Amazon Prime, and YouTube. I played Universal Paperclips through 100 times in a row. I've spent thousands of hours in Factorio. I swore off Reddit when they sold out... so now it's here, twitter, facebook and youtube to occupy my days.

Get out now, find your passions that have nothing to do with work! Don't expect to find them magically when you retire.

hn_ltl-ftc• 2 years ago

Well, I’m much closer, at 66, to having to deal with the dreams and realities of retirement, than the (much?) younger author of TFA is. All that follows, BTW, is from a USA-centric perspective. (Immodest request: kindly refrain from saying how much better retirement and/or old-age is, in your country-such comparisons are largely unproductive; yet annoyingly tedious.)

I’m still working full time as a Software Developer and systems analyst, and largely by my own choice. Though I admit my lifestyle would be curtailed a bit (or maybe a LOT, if I live long enough!) if I had to live off my current savings plus whatever level of social security I’d be entitled to.

I’m still healthy enough to do the work, but I definitely feel like I don’t have the energy level and stamina that I used to. Nor as much motivation to focus on the job and my career.

Those last two challenges were most apparent during my previous two jobs, which were at software or hardware start-ups. I simply don’t want to deal with that level of stress and time pressure anymore, regardless of whether or not I can work at that pace. (Which is increasingly doubtful, admittedly.)

Currently I’m working at a sort of ‘biotech startup’ except we’re embedded inside a giant pharma company. And the work pace is wonderfully relaxed (and low-stress), compared to my previous employment (in high-tech startups). From my current viewpoint, and career needs, it’s a good match. I get a solid salary (+ bonus and stock), but (unlike software/internet/AI startups): a PHENOMENAL benefits plan. Though not FAANG money; but, then again, I never made that kind of money when I worked for Internet startup companies, so…

The good news, for my current career, is that I’m still mentally sharp enough to have, say, an in depth discussion of the differences between React, Vue, and other UI frameworks. And I’m teaching myself the finer points of TypeScript, as well as applying it on the job. The bad news, is that I’m having a serious of health issues. Nothing catastrophic so far; but gradually increasing in significance or frequency. At this point I feel like it’s a race between when my body gives out, or when I simply lose interest in writing code, and can convince myself that I’ve got enough savings to retire on.

Assuming that I can retire in reasonably OK health (if possible, in 3-4 years, around age 70, when I’d max-out social security benefits), I’m thinking that I have a low boredom threshold, and will want something to keep me engaged (and to help me maintain a healthy regular schedule). I’m not sure what that is yet. Maybe something just for fun (for example, I like to do woodworking)? Maybe something part-time, or freelance; but enough income to make my retirement less financially worrisome)? I’ve thought of: substitute teaching; being a teacher’s assistant (both at secondary education level; college adjunct faculty; sound or TV production; or maybe trying to sell some of my woodworking (which would make it a much less fun hobby, sadly)? Possibly an (off-season) estate caretaker gig?

I’d love to hear from others here, on HN, who are retired (or about to) and have: experience reports, cavests, or tips to convey. Or constructive feedback on my own retirement ideas…

joshstrange• 2 years ago

When I first started reading this my first thought was “Ehh, maybe I don’t need to formalize my thoughts on ‘retirement’ into a blog post if this does a good enough job” but it’s focusing on something a little different than what I’d like to write about I think.

I wrote a brief comment on this a day ago which sparked the idea of writing something longer [0]. Bottom line being: make sure you are happy today, you might not get tomorrow.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41547360

Retiring from the idea of retirement

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