OpenStreetMap Is Turning 20

https://stevecoast.substack.com/p/the-days-are-long-but-the-years-are

by gemanor • 2 years ago

470 138 2 years ago

stevecoast.substack.com

Nic0• 2 years ago

Damn, I hate those news, it make me fell old. I did some editing, maybe 15 years ago when I was on a LUG (Linux User Group, does this exists anymore ?). Good time.

mindracer• 2 years ago

LUGs still exist I regularly attend my local one

nyyp• 2 years ago

I'm very glad OpenStreetMap is still around. It has often contained data that I couldn't easily find elsewhere, and I've enjoyed being able to contribute to the places I care about.

punnerud• 2 years ago

I love that you can host your own version of OpenStreetmap, and even create a street address lookup from coordinates (reverse geocode) only with a bit of Python and SQLite, using the OSM data: https://github.com/punnerud/rgcosm

karussell2• 2 years ago

Also have a look into this work: https://nominatim.org/2023/02/06/nominatim-lite.html

politelemon• 2 years ago

OSM is the only implementation of maps that has been done with privacy in mind. It's a real shame that DDG chose to drop it for a much worse alternative.

OSM has been an absolute necessity when out hiking in the sticks, and knowing that someone has done work to map this trail out without expectations from me. It's also led to many useful derived maps like public toilets and parking and accessibility. I've always made it a point to try and contribute back whenever I can.

circularfoyers• 2 years ago

I believe they did it because OSM in most places is very outdated or even non existent for businesses, which was probably one of the top uses of it in a search engine.

Having contributed quite a lot to OSM, I can say though that it was generally a lot better for hiking tracks than Google maps.

hk__22• 2 years ago

Agreed. For up-to-date info on businesses I rely on Google Maps, but for hiking it’s totally useless compared to OSM. I still buy some "official" paper maps of the area I hike in because I’ve had bad surprises with OSM, mostly because some mappers sometimes invent some paths based on outdated, blurry aerial imagery, with no real experience of the area. I wish there were a tag like checked_at on paths to mark those that were verified vs. those that were only drawn on Bing Imagery.

zikduruqe2• 2 years ago

I'm an avid cyclist and always update routes, document drinking fountains, shelters, bicycle repair stations and update businesses that I see need it.

viscousviolin3• 2 years ago

Thanks for all your input! How long does it usually take you to complete a single update? I'm curious about helping out with the effort in my neighbourhood.

zelphirkalt• 2 years ago

I feel like they could do a little more in terms of promoting on their own website to add/update things. I use it, but so far never saw any "Something new here? Do xyz to add it to the map!". So I have no clue how to even start adding anything. Alternatively perhaps they could allow users to add things to some staging ground, where authorized users could decide, whether to take it or not. But I guess that would result in lots of spam.

thefz2• 2 years ago

Having an offline, updated map in my pocket is invaluable when hiking and cycling in the mountains. I have been contributing to it as much as I can, to at least give something back.

kjrfghslkdjfl• 2 years ago

Currently, I use google maps "offline maps" for this. However, one thing it can't do is give you directions in offline mode. Meaning, I can have the map in offline mode but not ask it to find me a path from A to B.

Do you know of an OSM app that can do this is offline mode?

Rygian• 2 years ago

As sibling comments point out, you can try OsmAnd or Organic Maps.

bdjsiqoocwk4• 2 years ago

Do you know of an OSM app that gives directions to get from A to B, and works offline?

lolc2• 2 years ago

I primarily use Osmand. Organicmaps is another option.

heffer• 2 years ago

OsmAnd

bad_username• 2 years ago

Organic maps.

jesperlang• 2 years ago

OSM has the potential to be the open, available source of truth for so much of our data. From there, we can simply build curated UIs that displays what we need (keep in mind that OSM is not a “map”). Opening hours for example. Today this info is either on a webpage or google maps. Sometimes contradicting each other, where a Facebook status update has the most accurate info.

eisa012• 2 years ago

Which makes it a shame that Overture's Place data don't contain the opening_hours: https://github.com/OvertureMaps/schema/discussions/243

(Overture is a "standardized" version of OSM, except for the Places data where they use Microsoft and Meta data)

hk__22• 2 years ago

Unfortunately OSM doesn’t solve the problem if the POI owners don’t use it; and in my experience they often don’t even know it exists. Even in my densely-populated area with tons of OSM contributors a lot of POIs are still outdated because restaurant and store owners care only about their website/Instagram/FB or Google Maps and don’t know about OSM. When I started contributing ~12 years ago a main contributor used to say it was a waste of time to map restaurants because the data quickly becomes outdated if nobody’s there to check; I don’t know if he still thinks the same.

globular-toast• 2 years ago

This will be massively controversial I'm sure, but I'm starting to think it should be illegal for companies to get the (unpaid) public to contribute to their own private database. Those store owners don't want to make the data available to Google, they want to make it available to the public. Companies like Google are abusing the public to further their own goals at the detriment to us all. Pay someone to do it? Fine. It's yours. Get it from the public? Then it's public data and you have to make it available to the public.

bdjsiqoocwk4• 2 years ago

used to say it was a waste of time to map restaurants because the data quickly becomes outdated

I downloaded streetcomplete on the suggestion of someone else on this thread, and that was immediately my intuition.

pietervdvn3• 2 years ago

I'm trying to build this with https://mapcomplete.org

Ruthalas• 2 years ago

If you appreciate OSM, consider installing the StreetComplete mobile app[0]! It lets you contribute to OSM in a very simple manner, via simple questions like, "Is there a marked crosswalk here?"

I'm not affiliated, I just think it's cool. It's very satisfying to complete quests in your local area.

[0] https://streetcomplete.app/

eisa012• 2 years ago

And until there's an iOS version [1], you could try EveryDoor - especially great for POIs

[1] https://github.com/orgs/streetcomplete/projects/1 [2] https://every-door.app

raybb• 2 years ago

For folks not too familiar with OSM, POI are points of interest, usually shops, parks, water access, restroom, etc. Just one point and a few labels. Much easier to map on the go than sidewalks or buildings that require more precision.

deng3• 2 years ago

Yes, I can also confirm that it's a great way to lose weight, as it gives long walks a sense of purpose. ;-)

nurgasemetey• 2 years ago

Is it normal that website gives 403 Forbidden?

ainonsense44• 2 years ago

Freak_NL4• 2 years ago

StreetComplete is fun for casual contributions, but what OSM really needs is good local mappers. You can tell when a place has local mappers updating and monitoring changes in the real world. Even just taking care of the coming and going of shops is really useful. People who visit your area using apps like OsmAnd and OrganicMaps use that data!

xethos3• 2 years ago

I cannot describe [0] my pleasure and satisfaction when, visiting Germany, we found an icecream shop closed. We'd stopped by with the assumption Google Maps would have the correct hours; they did not, and we carried on without icecream. OSM, on the other hand, correctly showed the shop as closed for the day.

[0] I can't, but my fiancee used the words "impossibly smug"

SideburnsOfDoom3• 2 years ago

I do this local mapping, and I also use StreetComplete.

I find it's not one of the other, it's "Why not both?"

e.g. new coffee shop opened down the road? I'll take a picture of it on my phone, go home and open https://www.openstreetmap.org/, click "edit" and add it, along with info from the phone photo (Shop name, Address, phone number, and a website if I can find one).

The next time I'm nearby, StreetComplete will prompt me for other key info such as opening hours.

They compliment each other.

On the one hand, the full OSM experience is much richer than StreetComplete.

On the other hand, StreetComplete is a gateway drug to it, and also a useful accessory to it.

andrepd• 2 years ago

Re: shops/businesses, it would be nice if we could find somehow a way of having businesses themselves update their details: just basic stuff like opening hours and contacts. Not sure what's the solution for this though. One half of the solution certainly is just a convenient (web) UI for this, minimal friction just go to this website, enter your info, and click okay. But the other half is even making businesses aware that this is a thing. Mailing flyers with a QR code? x)

ygra9• 2 years ago

But surveying shops coming and going works really well with StreetComplete as well (check the places overlay).

Besides, the app is such a wonderful gateway drug to OSM that even if the only benefit at the end of the day from most mappers were road surfaces and building levels, there's still a few people who become good mappers beyond StreetComplete. I started with SC in March 2021. By now nearly no quests remain in my village, nearly every building has proper building and roof colours, I have far more changesets by now with JOSM and I strive for at least one changeset every day.

I won't touch bus routes, though. They're scary.

pacbard• 2 years ago

Local mapping is surprisingly difficult. I believe that the commercial products (i.e., Google Maps) are viable only because there are strong incentives for people (e.g., business owners, property owners) to submit edits as they are the main way that people search for them. Without that, you get into a limbo where you have data but it's not the most updated one.

By the way, not even government agencies have good geo data, even when they should. I needed up to date address information for work, so I bought a map from my local county assessor's office. In my mind, the assessor should have the most recent data on properties, as their main mission is to collect taxes annually. I was wrong. Their data is about 4 to 5 years wrong, with whole "new" subdivisions missing from their inventory. Google Maps kind of has them on the map; I believe that their geolocation data comes from real estate platforms when new houses are on the market. OSM is about 10 years behind in my area. I am submitting edits as I find them.

If someone has a better idea on where to find address data, please let me know.

hnarn• 2 years ago

Even just taking care of the coming and going of shops is really useful.

This is exactly why I contribute to OSM and add/remove/fix my favorite restaurants, bars etc. in the city I live in. I feel like I'm doing three nice things at a time: helping local companies, making travel better for tourists, and sticking it to $the_man[1]

[1]: whatever corporation is currently responsible for sucking up data on what beer I drink, what pizza I eat, and what clothes I wear, so they can cross-references it with my haircut, circle of friends and lidar-scanned calves measurements from my robo-vacuum while i'm taking a shit to sell me keyrings and usb-cables from china

roeles• 2 years ago

I tried editing my area to reflect road closures due to construction. It was surprisingly difficult. Spent an hour searching online. My edit was denied by the reviewer (I used the wrong method) and the closure was not reflected in the map.

Google maps was a one minute process and it was reflected in the map after about an hour. OSM stayed outdated for weeks.

From this experience I am tempted to conclude that OSM needs to make mapping easier.

jcynix3• 2 years ago

consider installing the StreetComplete mobile app [...]

I'll second that and I'd add the tip to install its companion app StreetMeasure too in order to measure things like the width of a street or the length of other things.

When on holidays or a weekend trip visiting places I often use StreetComplete to add missing data while walking around with my wife. And recently in the South of France I had to answer questions about the width of rather small streets in an old town center where my guesses wheren't very good. Then StreetComplete suggested that I use StreetMeasure and I got much better estimates.

ygra9• 2 years ago

I carry a laser distance meter for that sort of things. Also wall/hedge/fence heights, etc. Besides, you can just ... not answer certain quests if you're unsure of the answer (or need to use estimation – there's tagging for estimated widths, but it's not used by StreetComplete). But I also found it handy to figure out the sizes of common paving stones, which makes sidewalks rather easy to measure without actually measuring :)

bartread2• 2 years ago

Sadly does not seem to be available in iOS App Store in the UK or I would love to.

eddyg• 2 years ago

Try https://every-door.app/

m4rtink• 2 years ago

Can really recommend StreetComplete - really fun to use & using it right now on a day trip to improve a less mapped area. :)

PontifexMinimus2• 2 years ago

Google Maps used to have geolocated pictures taken by users (IIRC this was called Panoramio). If OSM had an app that allowed you to take photos and they'd be automatically uploaded with location, that'd be great.

ygra9• 2 years ago

Mapillary or Kartaview are the typical choices here to add free street-level imagery which can then be used for OSM purposes as well.

What also works is Wikimedia Commons. There's a good mobile app. You can take pictures of a POI, upload them and later associate them with that object in OSM (or via Wikidata).

weightedreply• 2 years ago

Thanks for sharing! I'm glad there is an FDroid version. I think I'll enjoy this while on walks. It's like gamification for map stewardship.

I remember when OpenStreetMap was new. I added a short missing footpath in my neighborhood at the time. It was a shortcut between homes. Today that same path even displays a very slight 1° turn. Amazing.

IndySun• 2 years ago

I use GoMap!!. It's comprehensive and a little clunky to use. I had not heard of streetcomplete. A quick suggests it is similar but a welcome alt.

habi3• 2 years ago

StreetComplete is a gameified approach to updating details on OpenStreetMap, and only available on Android (for the moment: https://github.com/orgs/streetcomplete/projects/1).

A good companion to Go Map!! (which is a nearly full-featured OSM editor app) is https://every-door.app/, which is great for on-the-go stuff.

yonatan8070• 2 years ago

Turns out I have new mini-hobby now, thanks!

moffkalast• 2 years ago

All hail OSM, the only online mapping service that actually lets you access the raw tile server for completely free without any login or tokens or anything, making it the absolute ideal for app integration. May it stay funded forever and maybe get some satelite data one day. Completely unironically.

Honestly it is a bit surprising that there hasn't been like a government programme or a crazy billionaire wanting to improve their image somewhere that would launch a rideshare cubesat and have it continuously record an actually open source dataset for all.

pastage• 2 years ago

There are lots of government programs doing that, lots of companies trying to compete with Google has invested in OSM. The success really is that it has all gone into OpenStreetmap.

OSM could do a better job acknowledging these partners, but honestly Steve Coast is right it is the people of OSM that matters. The companies and government are only a very small part of OSM.

deng3• 2 years ago

The amount of data OSM has nowadays is a treasure. It's just a shame that there's no well done generic web frontend that would make all this data accessible in a way that could rival Google Maps. The official openstreetmap.org web site just provides bare functionality with an almost unusable search, and otherwise focuses on editing OSM data.

Probably the best generic "frontend" for OSM is Organic Maps, which however is confined to Android and iOS. I think if there would be a web version of Organic Maps, this could greatly accelerate OSM adoption.

pietervdvn3• 2 years ago

It depends on what exactly you want. Google Maps does more then just being a map, such as navigation, streetview, reviews,...

In either case, I've heard quite some people being in love with Qwant Maps.

And I try to get to build specialized maps with https://mapcomplete.org

deng3• 2 years ago

Qwant Maps is discontinued, sadly.

Features I would want most from a web frontend for OSM:

* Smarter search in the local area that is currently focused, with possibility to search for generic terms like "atm", "bus stop", "bakery", etc.

* Display of shops/restaurants/markets/etc with additional information like opening hours (which are available in OSM, I've added a ton of it through StreetComplete and often wondered why I even bother as no one will ever see them). I can easily live without reviews, they are easily gamed and would need a ton of moderation.

* Public transport information. There's currently work ongoing in Organic Maps to support this.

* Navigation, yes, to some degree. I think this area is actually already quite well covered through services like Komoot, for instance. For car navigation, you probably will never beat Google Maps because of the available current traffic information there.

Freak_NL4• 2 years ago

Yeah, openstreetmap.org is a bit of an embarrassment for the community in its current state, although the search isn't too bad.

OsmAnd and OrganicMaps are fortunately quite powerful and full-featured.

aembleton• 2 years ago

I think mapy [1] is the best frontend I've seen for OSM. Its search still isn't as good as Google Maps though.

They also have iOS [2] and Android [3] apps. I can't speak for the iOS app, but the Android one lets you download offline maps in a very space efficient way, similar to Organic Maps.

1. https://en.mapy.cz/zakladni?x=-2.2989613&y=53.1629710&z=8

2. https://apps.apple.com/cz/app/mapy-cz-maps-navigation/id4114...

3. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cz.seznam.mapy...

afavour2• 2 years ago

I feel like an ass just for saying it but I downloaded the iOS app at the map style is so… busy. Granted I’m in NYC so there’s a lot going on but it’s showing me every single bus stop (there are literally seven in a one block radius) and building outlines even when zoomed out. It’s very visually overwhelming.

This is something Google and Apple Maps really nail, I hope OSM can too at some point.

openrisk• 2 years ago

Indeed, discovering all the goodness people have built on top of OSM is not particularly easy, especially for non-technical users. A long list of OSM based services is available in the OSM wiki [0].

A useful collection of links for non-technical users is hidden inside the streetcomplete app [1] (which itself is one of the most remarkable apps built on top of OSM). To find it, open the "my profile" view and then the "bookmark" icon). The list is unlocked gradually using some gamification (as a reward for completing quests). The complete list (for the impatient :-) is available here [2]

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_OSM-based_servic...

[1] https://f-droid.org/packages/de.westnordost.streetcomplete/

[2] https://github.com/streetcomplete/StreetComplete/blob/a09ae2...

lol768• 2 years ago

It's all a bit of a licensing nightmare as well, if you want to embed the maps.

If you want actual FOSS, you need to be aware of which libraries to avoid (i.e. don't touch anything Mapbox with a bargepole anymore - to be honest, their anti-union, anti-open agenda put me off a few years ago regardless of the license change, which is a shame because they used to do really good work).

maelito2• 2 years ago

https://cartes.app plans to be the open source alternative to Google and Apple Maps. French-only beta version for now.

(I'm the developer)

Neil44• 2 years ago

I recently started using TomTom amigo for car navigation in preference to Google maps and I noticed it uses openstreetmap data. Data seems good.

izacus• 2 years ago

TomTom uses their own data though (they're a major provider of car navs and navigation devices).

Freak_NL4• 2 years ago

They are using OSM augmented with their own data. TomTom employs some mappers to fix issues they run into.

AlexTrask• 2 years ago

Try using organic maps. Free software with OSM data

wcedmisten2• 2 years ago

I really enjoy using OSM for my projects! It can be a bit daunting to figure out how to use the data because there are so many different tools in the ecosystem. I wrote this article recently to help anyone looking to get started querying OSM:

https://wcedmisten.fyi/post/how-to-query-osm/

jcynix3• 2 years ago

Nice intro, thanks!

sylware• 2 years ago

I want a reasonably good, plain and simple C99 implemented, tile renderer.

Is there any or I have to use the python3 one that to avoid to pull an abomination of c++ or rust compiler?

tictacttoe• 2 years ago

First, happy customer of OSM and it’s impressive what they’ve built! That said, I’ve noticed their company website field is sparsely populated.

Any recommendations for acquiring the place website URL through an API or ethically scraping it at scale? I’m specifically wondering about options that wouldn’t involve Google Places.

lolc2• 2 years ago

Read up on what OSM is before you scrape!

And maybe Overpass will work for you: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_API

habi3• 2 years ago

Do NOT scrape OpenStreetmap, you can download the full dataset for yourself: https://planet.osm.org/ and search for what you want in it.

If you want regional extracts, you can simply download them from Geofabrik at https://download.geofabrik.de/

jcynix3• 2 years ago

Adding (or correcting) opening hours for businesses, libraries, shops, etc in OSM is quite tedious sometimes IMHO.

Maybe that could be a useful task for some AI? Pass it a photo of the data and a location and let it generate the needed additions to OSM ...

smusamashah2• 2 years ago

Is there a good UI for OpenStreetMap which is as good as Google Maps? I really want to contribute to OSM but the UI is not as simple as Google Maps. I do keep putting things on Google Maps but i have started to feel guilty about it.

LucasBrandt• 2 years ago

StreetComplete is a really easy way to start contributing!

Self-Perfection• 2 years ago

Best (simplest) options for contribution are:

- StreetComplete - gamification of adding missing properties for existing objects. Consider it as most basic and limited

- https://every-door.app/ - the best option to update and add amenities (shops, restaurants, etc) on the go.

- iD browser editor available at https://www.openstreetmap.org/ - you will need at least this complexity to add objects with geometry (linear or area)

smusamashah2• 2 years ago

I have both of these. Street complete is not for day to day use. That means I won't open it in time of need and find a chance to add something.

Every door is a better one but still not as simple as Google Maps. I do believe we need an OSM wrapper which has as simple UI as Google maps.

K2h• 2 years ago

On ios i have been a beta tester and use the free program go map!! [1] When out and about. I find it fast and fun for osm updates on the go.

[1] https://apps.apple.com/us/app/go-map/id592990211

cletus• 2 years ago

I fully support the OSM effort. Interestingly, through OSM and even Apple Maps you see just how difficult it is to build a mapping dataset.

One story I heard was that the Chinese government intentionally makes its published maps inaccurate by basically offsetting it by a few meters. I'm not sure if this is still current. I'm not sure of the reasoning. It's not like it would stop an invasion if the highway was a few meters from where you thoguht it was. Anyway, to counter that humans basically had to adjust the published maps by overlaying them onto satellite photos to remove the error. AI helps with this but it's still labor intensive.

IN addition to being labor-intensive, there are so many disparate data sources that you need to match up. Much of that data conflicts. The likes of Yelp and even Foursquare exist primarily by selling location data.

Even something like listing the opening hours of a business is incredibly labor intensive. Google has (had?) a system where an AI would call the business to ask their hours of operation. I think they had to modify it to say it was an automated call.

Oh you want directions? I guess you need accurate direction data for roads. You probably need to know where bike paths are. Different locales can define a bike path differently. In some places bikes can share the road with cars. In others they can't.

You want to integrate public transit? Well, every place is going to have a weird API.

It's a good example because something that seems so simple involves a ton of labor and integrating thousands of data sources.

Disclaimer: Xoogler.

dieortin• 2 years ago

One story I heard was that the Chinese government intentionally makes its published maps inaccurate by basically offsetting it by a few meters

It’s still current but much more complex than this, and offsets can be of more than 500 meters (that’s not just a few). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_dat...

I still don’t think it makes much sense currently. I would guess any opposing army would get coordinates for a strike from satellite imagery, and not from maps (let alone Chinese ones)

Doctor_Fegg• 2 years ago

You probably need to know where bike paths are

Which is famously something OSM does _much_ better than Google.

contrarian1234• 2 years ago

It's a shame it's not become a bigger thing. I feel uptake has pretty much stagnated. The weird/pointless attribution requirement has really kneecaped them. A lot of open government data can not be relicensed under a more restrictive license and can't be injested. And if you want to use their data it's also inherently problematic when you need to watermark every map that uses OSM data

I hope some day a truely open data set is compiled - b/c honest I find the attribution requirement doesn't even serve the function of giving the authors/contributors any kudos

ygra9• 2 years ago

Basically every service that provides maps requires attribution. The problem with OSM is that they cannot reasonably include other data with a license that also requires attribution at the usage site. That little »© OpenStreetMap contributors« in the corner would balloon into 600 different entries. Unless they all are fine with not being mentioned, but they typically do that not for free.

There are a number of exceptions. A few CC-BY datasets can be used in OSM because the owner is fine with an entry on a Wiki page is sufficient attribution; Bing and Esri allow their aerial images to be used and only require the changeset to mention the source; etc. But each of those is a separate agreement.

pietervdvn3• 2 years ago

Another way to contribute is my project https://mapcomplete.org

I'm trying to build a somewhat generic map view, which features many thematic maps (e.g. shops, restaurants, bicycle pumps, toilets, ...)

Most data comes from OpenStreetMap, but it also allows to make changes, upload pictures, show wikipedia or make reviews with mangrove.Reviews

n4r92• 2 years ago

Can I use this to update the location of e.g. a restaurant that is in the wrong place?

ygra9• 2 years ago

Yes, the point-based maps typically allow you to move a feature.

fabioborellini• 2 years ago

I love OSM and its default web app, especially when travelling. The commercial maps are too dynamic and fuzzy, zooming in may make previously visible POIs go away. It also gives a general view of what is available in a given place.

I can’t find a supermarket using google maps in a new country, the search function usually fails and I don’t even know if I should use English, my native language or the destination’s language to find places. A more oldschool and less dynamic map allows to look for basket or cart symbols.

OpenStreetMap Is Turning 20

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