Mystery as 4k-year-old axe-heads sent to museum

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cydvn07d7vdo

by thunderbong • 2 years ago

99 104 2 years ago

pbj1968• 2 years ago

$60,000 fine… who can imagine why these were anonymously donated… probably dug them up in his backyard

Which on top of the fine, I imagine they wouldn't be thrilled to have a digging operation right by their house. The anonymous packages make perfect sense.

c-linkage• 2 years ago

My head-cannon is that both sets of artifacts reported in the story were sent in by the same person. The dude just loves metal detecting and he won't be stopped! And it's better to preserve the finds anonymously rather than face stiff penalties.

EDIT: Shout-Out for metal detecting in the UK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detectorists

blowski2• 2 years ago

Part of it was filmed where I live, and there has been a huge increase in the number of "detectorists" out in the fields.

fnordian_slip3• 2 years ago

"The dude just loves metal detecting and he won't be stopped!"

As someone who used to be in that field, I never understood why people don't do any research before getting into metal detecting. It should be obvious after even a tiny bit of reading about it that most finds are mostly useless without the context in which they were deposited. This context is usually completely destroyed by digging without knowledge of how to properly document it (that's why so many archaeologists kind of hate Schliemann, even though it has been 150 years). And on top of that most laypeople don't even properly record the location of the find. But many people, once they have started, seem to develop a sort of identity around it, and from that point on, most are impervious to new information. I've often heard that "these greedy archaeologists / government officials want to take what's rightfully mine" or "they don't appreciate me, I'm just trying to preserve history".

It's generally either total ignorance or "I didn't want to get fined" that lead to situations like the article. The latter is the same reason shady companies don't record where they disposed of chemicals in the woods, but somehow it's okay for you? Because you have convinced yourself you are "preserving history" by removing a bronze axehead from a location that has preserved it for over 2000 years?

It's truly a shame. There are of course some who work with local archaeologists, have received a bit of training and know how to dig and document, and when to stop digging, but from what I've seen, they are a tiny minority. And even many of them do more harm than good.

Some archeologists only work with them because they know that these people would dig or loot without them otherwise, and destroy much more in the process. But they can't say that openly, because in today's climate of anti -intellectualism, this would be seen as "ivory tower behaviour", and even more people would go detecting completely unsupervised. Just like rolling coal and the like, some people just really don't like being told what to do, no matter the disparity in knowledge about the subject.

Sorry about the rant, it's just all rather frustrating sometimes. In my country, the laws surrounding excavations are so stupid that no-one is happy with them, but archaeologists don't have a lobby of course, so we'll just have to live with the status quo.

Aurornis• 2 years ago

It's generally either total ignorance or "I didn't want to get fined" that lead to situations like the article. The latter is the same reason shady companies don't record where they disposed of chemicals in the woods, but somehow it's okay for you? Because you have convinced yourself you are "preserving history" by removing a bronze axehead from a location that has preserved it for over 2000 years?

You’re heaping a lot of assumptions on to people who do metal detecting.

What makes you so confident that these people went out with the goal of finding and destroying archaeological sites with their metal detector? Finding archaeological artifacts is an extremely rare edge case in metal detecting. I doubt these people had any idea they were digging up valuable artifacts until they were completely out.

It's generally either total ignorance or "I didn't want to get fined" that lead to situations like the article

When the fine is on the order of a decent annual income, it should come as no surprise that people don’t want to get fined. It should also come as no surprise that anyone who discovers any artifacts like this would be highly incentivized to hide their origin.

I don’t know what you expect. For someone to generously turn their probably accidental finding in and pay a massive amount of money for the privilege?

inglor_cz2• 2 years ago

I just visited the Danish National Museum in Copenhagen and they seem to have good working relationship with Danish detectorists, explicitly thanking them for some finds.

It might be a better attitude than criminalization. People are still going to do it, so instead of repression, try to reel them in and teach them the basics for harm reduction.

Wait, can't something similar be written about pot or abortion?

poulpy123• 2 years ago

I never understood why people don't do any research before getting into metal detecting.

Because people do it for fun, not to do archeological research

And on top of that most laypeople don't even properly record the location of the find

what detectorists find is 99.9% of the time just crap, and the 99.9% of the 0.1% remaining is just stuff that is not interesting for archeology or history. Interesting finds are extremely rare

The latter is the same reason shady companies don't record where they disposed of chemicals in the woods,

Yes, polluting a place and finding a badly damaged roman coin on a field used for centuries is exactely the same

but somehow it's okay for you? Because you have convinced yourself you are "preserving history" by removing a bronze axehead from a location that has preserved it for over 2000 years?

They don't preserve history, but neither do historians and archaeologists in the cases mentioned, because they don't and won't carry out any research in these places anyway. It's obviously different when detectorist work on archeological places but it's forbidden almost everywhere

If they were smarter, archeologists should push for more sensible rules, and for collaboration with detectorist associations instead of blind repression.

blowski2• 2 years ago

At a guess, a landowner doesn't want archaeologists forcing their way in to dig up their garden and place restrictions on future works on the property.

anotherhue• 2 years ago

Probably. If only there were some way to align the incentives. Oh well.

HPsquared• 2 years ago

Paying a "bounty" for artefacts seems the obvious one. If they're so valuable and all.

rockbruno• 2 years ago

Interesting how the article says they're puzzled why he decided to be anonymous, then proceeds to mention that what he did is highly illegal in Ireland. It seems pretty obvious why he wants to be left alone...

dougdimmadome• 2 years ago

I live in rural Ireland, and I've heard more than one story about a farmer who discovered some archeological find on their land and just plowed over it to avoid the hassle.

esel2k• 2 years ago

We don’t want that people use metal detectors to find archeological material but we want to find archeological material and know everything about it.

Maybe there is a way to deal with it? With licenses/permits including training and a ban on reselling?

voidUpdate• 2 years ago

I assume there is a kind of permit system, given the "unless you have written permission from the government" part

fullspectrumdev5• 2 years ago

You can apply for a permit - you usually only will get one for a specific area if you are an archaeologist associated with a university or a museum or something apparently.

The law is intended specifically to prevent random people digging up stuff and causing damage to historic sites.

slackfan• 2 years ago

Man, I've missed classic Slashdot-style "didn't read TFA".

chairmanwow1• 2 years ago

Yeah this is what a $60k fine gets you. It’s a silly law to try and prevent metal detecting.

lukan4• 2 years ago

It rather gets you usually nothing at all as it all stays underground and it is rare for somelne to anonymously donate while gaining nothing from it.

RichardLake• 2 years ago

My understanding is that the context in which the pieces are found is of enormous import to archaeology. It would be better to one site done properly with the rest in the ground than lose the context from a larger number of sites when the artefacts donated anonymously.

nasvay_factory• 2 years ago

what a chad! just finds a really old thing and sends it to a local museum anonymously. i would've done the same.

rdtsc4• 2 years ago

Those convicted of the offence can face a fine ranging to more than €63,000 (£53,000). They can also be sentenced to up to three months in prison
However, appealing to the sender to get back in touch, staff said information about the discovery of the axe-heads would be "treated with the utmost confidentiality and used solely to verify the find location and its circumstances".

Says the current administration until someone else replaces them or someone eager to see justice served from the law enforcement forces them to disclose their source.

elzbardico2• 2 years ago

Actually, in most countries, the public agents are forced to pursue persecution whenever they are aware of a "crime", not doing so is usually defined in most countries legal statutes as the crime of "prevarication".

So, unless a formal procedured issues a legal valid document granting immunity, I hope this guy/gal keeps quiet.

Suppafly4• 2 years ago

Actually, in most countries, the public agents are forced to pursue persecution whenever they are aware of a "crime"

Source?

23B1• 2 years ago

The cognitive dissonance on display.

The nanny state is allergic to common sense.

neontomo• 2 years ago

is there no way to verify where the package was sent from? not the address, but the specific post office that handled it?

bell-cot• 2 years ago

It is illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects anywhere in the Republic of Ireland, unless you have written permission from the government.

So if you were (say) digging some footings for your new garden shed, found the items, and didn't much trust law enforcement - but were, in abstract, a patriotic sort, who wanted to do the right thing...

True story: A friend of mine was digging foundations for a new shed in the back yard of a house he owned - and discovered human bones. Police got involved, and it was a big, big PITA. Even though experts from the local university pronounced "the remains were buried over a century ago; the victim appears to have died of infectious disease". And my friend had bought the house (from an unrelated party) just a few decades prior. And the house had been used as a hospital a century or so earlier, when "bury the paupers in the back yard" could easily be tiny-hospital SOP during an epidemic.

janpmz• 2 years ago

I wonder how they know the axe-heads are 4k years old. Carbon dating tells them how old the material is, but how do they know when the head was formed into an axe? The same goes for cave paintings. They can date how old the paint is, but how do they know when it was painted?

KingOfCoders• 2 years ago

From the artists biography.

freeone3000• 2 years ago

When your error bars are a few hundred years or so, the few weeks between “making paint” and “using paint” isn’t terribly relevant.

thaumasiotes• 2 years ago

Well, we can safely rule out the idea that a cave painting was made with thousand-year-old paint.

It's more difficult to rule out the idea that a thousand-year-old painting was restored with usable paint.

Zitrax• 2 years ago

I don't think you can date the axe-heads from the material? I assume they date based on objects found nearby and the technique used to make them. Which is also why knowing the exact location is important.

nu11ptr• 2 years ago

Wow, I can't imagine why the person sent these anonymously, lol.

Them to Sender: "Where did you get these from? It is very important!"

Them to Public: "We want to remind everyone that metal detecting for something like this is illegal and will be fined!"

Also Them to Sender: "Oh...err...but we won't apply that to you!" wink wink

thomasdeleeuw• 2 years ago

Also, the museum hardly has any say in prosecution.

Connector2542• 2 years ago

It is illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects anywhere in the Republic of Ireland, unless you have written permission from the government. Those convicted of the offence can face a fine ranging to more than €63,000 (£53,000).

No wonder they donated anonymously, what an insane law.

ChrisMarshallNY• 2 years ago

Yup.

I believe the term, here is "hoist with his own petard," to quote an Englishman (or Dane) of some repute.

lawlessone4• 2 years ago

ok but...

The letter stated that the axe-heads were discovered in County Westmeath using a metal detector.
The museum explained those "severe penalties" are in place because unauthorised metal detecting can cause "serious damage to Ireland’s archaeological heritage

justinclift2• 2 years ago

"But PULEEEEAASE tell us who you are and where you found these! We pinky swear we'll ignore the law and you won't get in trouble."

Good luck with that.

JTbane• 2 years ago

Yeah that law is ridiculous. What happens if you are a metal-detecting enthusiast looking for valuables and you stumble upon something archaeological? Are you just gonna get fined?

lawlessone4• 2 years ago

metal-detecting enthusiast looking for valuables and you stumble upon something archaeological?

Most things of value are going to be archeological. If you want gold you do panning.

RandallBrown• 2 years ago

I guess that in the same way guns aren't really a hobby in Ireland, neither is metal detecting.

ASalazarMX• 2 years ago

In my experience, nearly all metal-detecting enthusiasts hope to find valuable antiques, not modern iron scrap. Alright, some of them hope to find lost jewelry, but also valuable antiques. None of the ones I've known are prospecting for boring metal veins, for example.

leviathant• 2 years ago

No wonder they donated anonymously, what an insane law.

By contrast, where I live in Philadelphia, developers are not required to perform any archaeological studies before excavating - even along the Delaware River waterfront, where the oldest European settlements are, as well as countless indigenous sites.

Sometimes, before history gets scraped away and sent to the dump, bottle diggers will excavate the trash pits, typically discarding anything that's not 100% intact, and selling the 18th and 19th century bottles on eBay or at flea markets. However, like the axe heads in the article, these artifacts are absent context, removing nearly all historical value. And of course, the stratification of the pits they're extracted from is also destroyed, further reducing the ability to interpret any finds that might otherwise have been saved.

It's only projects paid for by our federal government that are required to do archaeological studies, and when they do, it's not uncommon to find early colonial artifacts, but also remnants of pre-contact Lenni-Lenape sites.

You only really get one shot at recovering history through archaeology. That doesn't mean that preservation holds permanent veto over progress, but a little bit of disincentivization can go a long way in the study of history.

BurningFrog• 2 years ago

Systems like these need the right incentives to work.

If the builder is compensated for the costs associated with working around the fonds, plus a little extra, they will be happy to report everything they find.

I'd throw in making museums obliged to display which builder company found the item when displaying it.

This probably costs a lot more than the average government wants to spend on archeology though.

Onavo• 2 years ago

And then when you or your relative need to buy a house, "Oh woe is me, why is building a house so expensive in the US!"

GeoAtreides• 2 years ago

It's to protect historical artifacts from looters, also to protect historical sites from being disturbed.

jobigoud• 2 years ago

Is saying that you searched for non-archeological objects and just happened to find one a valid defense? Or is it illegal to find archeological objects even if you weren't explicitly searching for them?

donalhunt• 2 years ago

I believe one only ever finds such objects by tripping over them... allegedly...

jblezo• 2 years ago

We have a law that somehow covers this in France. It is permitted to use a metal detector for leisure provided that it is not a search for archaeological objects.

However, this law can be interpreted from many angles, as it is difficult to define what is archaeological or not. There are certain associations which defend “leisure detection” as long as it is not located on a registered archaeological or historical site. But their point of view is not shared by archaeologists, who consider that any place can be considered an archaeological site, relegating leisure detection to fine sandy beaches.

In this context, case law says that there are no completely accidental archaeological discoveries with a metal detector.

throwup238• 2 years ago

I'm fairly certain that "anywhere" bit is wrong. You only need a license when doing it on public land, except for scheduled monuments, historic monuments, and areas of archaeological interest which require special permission as well.

If it's on private land and you have permission from the landowner, you don't need the license. You still need to report any treasure or archaeological finds to National Museums NI though.

radpanda• 2 years ago

FYI the article was about a find in the Republic of Ireland, not Northern Ireland. No idea about the relevant rules in either case though.

TheRealPomax4• 2 years ago

Sounds like you want to read through https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/Collections-Research/The-Law-on-... to tone down the indignation a little. It's a perfectly fine law: if you use a metal detector on your farm and you happen to find archeological metal, you're not breaking any laws. But now you do have a duty to report that find, and you can't keep using your metal detector and stabbing the ground with a shovel when it beeps because then you'd be intentionally disturbing and possibly destroying a site of potentially historical significance.

piltdownman• 2 years ago

And also lose the complete use of your land because it now has a designated ring fort or fairy bush on it listed as a protected structure.

Or worse, hold up the construction of a motorway for a decade and lead to its eventual re-routing at the cost of millions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latoon_fairy_bush

Workaccount2• 2 years ago

It looks to me that if the museum really wants all the details, they will have to pay $60k (or $60k x 2?) in order to get them.

meroes• 2 years ago

There we go. Put your money where your mouth is

eggy• 2 years ago

The law says it is illegal "to use a detection device to search for archaeological objects anywhere within the State or its territorial seas; without the prior written consent of the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht"

What if you are searching for gold, lost items, underground cables, or other, and you stumble upon an archaeological object? You were not hunting those objects, so I would say you were within the law. What you do with the fortuitous find is another matter (IANAL).

My brother and I were the first to buy a house in our immediate family. My Uncle Vic was the first to say you never really own your house or land. You pay property taxes after you have paid off your house. Your land can be taken with little compensation in some matters, etc. I can see why you would be happy and worried at the same time discovering artifacts whether you were looking for them or not.

actionfromafar3• 2 years ago

I don't know Irish law, but there are usually excemptions for other activities, like cables etc. In that case, you'd report your finding to relevant authorities.

fullspectrumdev5• 2 years ago

So using them for searching for cables/pipes or lost items is “allowed, sort of” - you can readily buy metal detectors in Ireland for these purposes.

Prospecting for gold, on the other hand, is a legally thorny subject in Ireland. Finds above a couple of grams have to be reported and handed in.

If you happen to “stumble across” historical artefacts on your land you are meant to stop doing whatever caused you to find them (eg construction), report it, and then wait forever while archaeologists eventually show up and spend ages poring over the find to ensure you don’t destroy anything of historic value.

flerchin• 2 years ago

A classic example of a 2nd order effect.

INTPenis• 2 years ago

Probably found in someone's back garden, or they would have sent an equally anonymous note on where they were found. Prison is a harsh deterrent to most people.

PenguinCoder• 2 years ago

If real life was a movie, I'd say those likely contain some ancient poison or virus that out ancestors used against alien invasion, and won against. They're surfaced now as a plot device for when we get invaded again (soon) and we find out our only hope is recreating that exact poison. Timely...

myspeed• 2 years ago

It can be also a smuggled item from elsewhere.

elzbardico2• 2 years ago

It is a really stupid law, and I hope the object finder don't fall in the trap of revealling her/his identity before a formal waiver of criminal persecution is issued by the competent authorities.

Aardwolf• 2 years ago

It is illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects anywhere in the Republic of Ireland, unless you have written permission from the government.

What if you use it to search for non-archaeological objects, but then accidentally find one?

Not surprising they receive anonymous donations without information if they treat finders like that.

egberts14• 2 years ago

Screw the crying pleas of museums and archeologists for more locale information, for with an oppressive law with HUGE disincentive to self-report accidental finds of seemingly archeological object that can knock out a good portion of your own precious land usage, there is nothing to be gained by outing yourself.

Now, if there were ample of compensations, then it becomes tenable and possibly fairer.

You should pass on this brand of British & Wales “presumptive justice” until they treat their citizen (as well as their jailed subpostmasters) better.

fullspectrumdev5• 2 years ago

This isn’t Britain or Wales. RoI is not part of the UK.

Mystery as 4k-year-old axe-heads sent to museum

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