Operation CHARM: Car repair manuals for everyone

by sergiotapia • 2 years ago

275 79 2 years ago

felixg3• 2 years ago

Interesting project. Just curious: why does it stop at 2013? Are the manuals not available, is it a licensing issue or just a project frozen in 2013?

GeneralAntilles• 2 years ago

manufacturers have all switched to online-only, subscription shop manuals that don't lend themselves to easy archiving to PDF.

whartung• 2 years ago

Going to be interesting if we ever get “right to repair” for vehicles for the factories to open that all up again.

I have some CD filled with I guess downloads from a factory online manual. It’s not the best experience to be sure.

HeatrayEnjoyer• 2 years ago

What about shops that are outside internet access?

Imagenuity• 2 years ago

All of Tesla's Service Manuals are freely available online: https://service.tesla.com/docs/ModelY/ServiceManual/index-mo...

millzlane3• 2 years ago

I know the mitchell and alldata discs on the high seas stops around then also.

fxtentacle• 2 years ago

"Almost all makes and models from 1982 through 2013"

which sadly means that no current car models are included.

dclowd99015• 2 years ago

Arguably, many of the things you’ll need to work on for newer vehicles are likely far outside the casual mechanic’s expertise and require a lot of bespoke and expensive equipment to service.

Everything else, like oil, brakes or fluid changes are basically the same as any other car. I understand that this kind of runs afoul of the spirit of this post, but there’s a reason many engines are simply replaced when they encounter some kind of major malfunction.

armildarken• 2 years ago

This isn't true for many makes and models. It's different than older models because troubleshooting or servicing starts with interrogating or commanding the car with specific software that isn't basic OBDII but with OBD adapters and cheap software both my 2010's Volkswagen and Jeeps can be diagnosed and serviced with an OBD reader.

Ironically my old Toyota is one of the hardest to really get at sensor and dealer-software changes.

In personal experience, VW manuals are atrocious to figure out while Toyota, at least around 2000 put out wonderful service manuals even if the ECU's are locked down.

pard685• 2 years ago

I am an amateur mechanic, but have done a great deal of very technical work. My only formal training is three years of high school shop classes, everything else I learned under or in a car. The newest thing I have worked on is a 2022 GMC Sierra. Seemed to be pretty much the same as my 2003 Chevy Silverado.

You are definitely correct about foreign (non-USA) makes. My wife had an Audi when we got married. I own a small toolbox of tools specific to her Audi S4 that I will never use again, but that was a 2006, so this issue predates 2013 for the makes that it is true about.

Admittedly, I try to avoid fuel injected vehicles. So I don't go out of my way to work on new things.

boznz• 2 years ago

There will never unfortunately be an open-source car. The nearest you will get is by getting a well-documented one with good OEM parts availability and converting it to an EV which eliminates a lot of the proprietary computers that seem to cause issues. EV drivetrain and battery parts are mostly well documented and interchangeable and can even be open-source, and Air bag and ABS computers in older cars also mostly work stand-alone (ie they will work properly if the cars computer is not there)

Newer cars have much better safety systems but have unfortunately gone all in for making things difficult.

lelanthran2• 2 years ago

there’s a reason many engines are simply replaced when they encounter some kind of major malfunction.

Only a catastrophic failure[1] results in an engine replacement. For the p99 of car owners out there (especially in rust-prone areas), the engine will outlast the body by a large margin.

[1] And for some types of catastrophic failure, such as overheating damage, it's still cheaper to replace the head only.

hhshhhhjjjd2• 2 years ago

May I ask for the Toyota Scion XB manual from 2005/2006? Scion always seems to be left out of make/model lists :(

relaxing• 2 years ago

They can be found on the scionlife forums, or at least used to be. I bet if you ask around you’ll find them.

(Aside, it’s interesting that car people seem to be one of the groups that still use old fashioned BBS-style web forums.)

hhshhhhjjjd2• 2 years ago

I'll check it out, thanks!

tjohns2• 2 years ago

If your public library offers access to a repair manual database (many do), you can probably find it on there for free.

I just checked and both Auto Repair Source and Chilton have manuals for that car in their database.

williape• 2 years ago

Just compared to a manual I purchased for $40 from Haynes - CHARM is just as good if not slightly better than that commercial repair guide for a 2008 VW GTI.

userbinator6• 2 years ago

For something a little older (and a bit less organised), see https://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/

That said, a lot of newer official service manuals don't really go into detail and just give instructions on how to disassemble and swap parts; better than no manual, but a huge contrast from older ones that would also include detailed theory of operation and troubleshooting information.

millzlane3• 2 years ago

This is how I learned to troubleshoot certain issues. The Chilton manual had a pretty good diagnosis section.

elchief2• 2 years ago

ooh, labor times too, to see if you're getting screwed by your mechanic...

and use rockauto.com for cheap parts (not affiliated)

kwkelly• 2 years ago

You mean rockauto.com and I agree it’s a great source for parts

elchief2• 2 years ago

fixed, thx

mtreis86• 2 years ago

Labor times are for new cars at flat rate dealerships, a lot of them are not realistic. Dealers make a pile of money off brake jobs, shocks, and other "gravy" repairs where it takes less time than the book says. They also lose time on the hard stuff that nobody in the place does on a routine basis like wire harness repairs. The timing also expects the mechanic to have the right tools all at hand, the right parts all ready to go, and the car is expected to be new, clean, and rust free. Your mileage may vary.

dclowd99015• 2 years ago

Very cool.

I love old original FSMs (factory service manuals) and tend to buy them for a car I’m beginning to restore. I’ll reach out to these folks to see if they’d be interested in scans of them or whatever they use to build this site.

sq_2• 2 years ago

I’ve always been curious about how many different manuals there seem to be for every car. I know that the manufacturers create one for dealers and that there are/were companies that tear cars down to make their own, but it feels like when I’ve needed to go find instructions for things there’s a staggering variety of manuals of varying levels of helpfulness.

Even when I manage to find what I think is an FSM it seems a little hard to follow what’s really going on in a given section without reading the section for every other assembly involved.

dclowd99015• 2 years ago

You’re totally right about this. I’d say there’s a very wide range of quality between various manufacturers’ FSMs. Toyota ones are great with diagnostic instructions and explicit parameters to match, whereas other brands I’ve leafed through have completely muddy pictures and poor instructions or no figures.

For third parties, I find Bentley manuals to be extremely good and thorough.

tom_• 2 years ago

Seems to be US specific. Can't see manuals for the last 3 cars I've had: 2001 BMW 330d, 2010 BMW 330i, 2011 Ford C-Max petrol. Renault stops in 1987, Peugeot stops in 1993, and there's nothing for Citroen, Vauxhall or Rover/MG at all.

(Realoem is pretty comprehensive for BMW parts numbers, if you need them)

TehCorwiz• 2 years ago

Yeah, it's also missing a lot of the information for the 2004 325xit sports wagon. No info on the rear hatch wipers, glass, etc.

publicmail• 2 years ago

We’re so lucky to have realoem. I was kind of shocked to find no equivalent for my late model GM vehicle.

fanf2• 2 years ago

Or the classic Haynes manuals https://haynes.com/

calvinmorrison7• 2 years ago

Haynes has a classic print error on the distributor leads for my car. Its like 4 1 3 2 instead of 2 3 1 4 (its right they just got the orientation backwards) which leads to many a forum thread.

KennyBlanken3• 2 years ago

Haynes manuals are infamous for being trash.

m4632• 2 years ago

https://silodrome.com/lockheed-sr-71-blackbird-owners-worksh...

Amorymeltzer• 2 years ago

The piece I like about this is less the manual about how to do the things—although that's always helpful—but the information about parts and labor. I assume the cost of things is out of date, but it's nice to have some baseline for labor time. Most folks (with ICE vehicles anyway) aren't doing most maintenance or repairs, so reducing the information asymmetry with various repair shops is a welcome tool.

hnburnsy• 2 years ago

How about Car How-tos and Repair Manuals for the Multitudes, CHARMM?

autotech2• 2 years ago

I often use this site for service info. It’s all pirated from ALLDATA. Currently a comprehensive subscription to service info is around $180/mo. A modern repair shop can’t function without service information.

wilg• 2 years ago

One thing that's fun about Tesla is their full service manuals for (all?) their vehicles are free online https://service.tesla.com/

nimbius• 2 years ago

As a professional diesel mechanic by trade, i can say this is a similar practice shops pay through-the-nose for with paid online catalogue services. this makes shadetree work on Teslas a treat. I spent a summer during covid doing work on Model S suspensions in a spare bay.

Im also chuffed to see the "pictures" in the service catalogue are just as pathetic as the ones some manufacturers include in the paid service portals. Freightliner and Mac manuals are all pristine...theres clearly an artist on salary who gets paid very very well for his craft. Companies that rhyme with Bilbo however include photos that look like they were taken with a gameboy color camera on a stormy night.

lotsofpulp• 2 years ago

Companies that rhyme with Bilbo

I’m coming up with nothing except Volvo, so I’m assuming that’s a typo.

KennyBlanken3• 2 years ago

...because they gatekeep everyone via parts, instead.

Tesla is one of very, very few companies for which its parts aren't available via the OEMs; parts made for Teslas can only be had via Tesla. If some part in your VW goes bad or breaks or wears, you often have up to three options: from VW via dealers, via the OEM that made the part for VW, via parts distributors - or via non-OEMs that have made a compatible part. VW (and others) often source from multiple OEMs or switch OEMs, so you sometimes have multiple OEM supplier options.

With Tesla? Only via them. For every fucking part on the car save stuff like brake pads and rotors.

You have to give them a VIN number to buy a part, and if the VIN belongs to a car Tesla has decided isn't roadworthy anymore, they won't go any further.

Want to put a small block chevy V8 into your Yugo? The guy at the GM dealer part counter will happily sell you one as long as you've got the money. Discovered that a Ford temperature sensor is a more reliable replacement for the one in your Jeep? The parts counter staff won't even blink when they sell you one.

The only time you'll get asked for a VIN is if the part you're asking for has varied with production, and certain VIN ranges might require a specific part for compatibility.

mulmen• 2 years ago

This is the most exciting thing about the GM EVs to me. They will be wide open and modular. In the EV swap world the Leaf motor is more economical than a Tesla just because it’s separate from the gearbox.

stn8188• 2 years ago

Thank you so much for this! I'm constantly needing to Google for torque specs when I work on my van, and as great as the Odyssey forum is it's really nice to have this. I really appreciate it, personally. I do all my own work, and it would be nice if manufacturers made this information more easy to access for those of us who do.

calvinmorrison7• 2 years ago

Torque specs you generally do get a feel for. It's basically related to bolt size. I mean, generally. Use torque specs inside the engine. Outside the engine go by feel

lelanthran2• 2 years ago

It's basically related to bolt size.

Well, there's confounding factors: the type of bolt (such as stretch bolts), the material the bolt is going into (heads are aluminium, while some sleeves in aluminium parts are not), whether the bolt is lubricated before insertion (spark plugs really should be lubricated), etc.

Bolt size is just another variable.

tjohns2• 2 years ago

Many public libraries also offer access to a car repair manual database through their online collection. You need a library card, but the information is high quality.

userbinator6• 2 years ago

They have/had huge collections of physical manuals too. That brings back memories around the turn of the century when I was in the "bookz" scene, going to the libraries with others and maxing out our library cards to bring home dozens of them for "scanparties". There were huge torrents of car manuals created as a result, and I suspect at least some of our efforts have been preserved in the "pirate libraries" today.

1970-01-01• 2 years ago

Our data will be available free of charge, permanently.

Permanently free and available just means until the website fails to pay the hosting bills or gets taken down by lawyers. Akin to a lifetime warranty. The company will surely fail before you do.

KennyBlanken3• 2 years ago

I looked up a particular car model I know and they've just made (really terrible) copies of the manuals published by Robert Bentley. The font and diagrams are exactly as I remember.

This is basically wholesale copyright infringement.

For another vehicle I know well, there's basically no actual repair information - just diagrams telling you where to find a particular component in the car. Nothing about how to actually do diagnostics or repairs.

wkat4242• 2 years ago

This seems to have only American models? My last car is not listed but versions with huge engine sizes which were never sold here in Europe are.

penguin_booze• 2 years ago

Yeah, was about to comment that. I looked for Suzuki Swift, but nada.

zokier2• 2 years ago

I've occasionally wondered if there are any production cars that have original manufacturing/design documents released. Feels like those could be really cool to see for some classic cars (911 comes to mind...)

userbinator6• 2 years ago

Released as in publicly available, yes. Not free though: https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digita...

zokier2• 2 years ago

We have the parts drawings in our collection, and we can supply copies, but we cannot confer the right to manufacture reproduction parts for sale – you would need to contact the Ford Motor Company for that

Curious what legal mechanism they are trying to use here, and on how solid legal ground they are... somehow I imagine it could make interesting legal case if they sued someone making new parts.

stevematzal• 2 years ago

No repair manual for Dacia? That's a shame.

jmrm• 2 years ago

It's curious how this kind of documents and book are easy to find for free for cars sold in North American but not from other places. That's a big marker about how big is the car culture there.

Operation CHARM: Car repair manuals for everyone

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