Portugal's democracy turns 50

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/portugals-democracy-turns-50-thousands-commemorate-carnation-revolution-2024-04-25/

by DrNosferatu • 2 years ago

70 112 2 years ago

reuters.com

arawde• 2 years ago

It's incredible just how long the Iberian fascist regimes lasted. I imagine that if you polled a set of random people from the street, and asked when they thought the last war for colonial indepence from a European power was, very few would answer "the 1979s" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portuguese_Colonial_War

int_19h12• 2 years ago

I mean, if you count Russia as a European colonial power - and you should! - then it's far more recent. Chechnya fought a war over its independence in 1994-96, then another one with an active phase in 1999-2000 that tapered off into guerrilla warfare that lasted until mid-2010s.

timeon• 2 years ago

They are currently trying to regain one colony as well.

TremendousJudge• 2 years ago

They have all of these big monuments to their "Guerra do Ultramar" too, I don't think there was any sort of nationwide realization of what that implies.

lkdfjlkdfjlg• 2 years ago

If you spend any time in Portugal, one thing youll learn is that they are very proud of their past. No self-reflection whatsoever.

And I said they even though Im one of them because I hate the culture of the country. Foreigners arent any depper, of course. They go "ohhh lisbon is so beautiful" and that's as far as they go.

ghostDancer• 2 years ago

Supported by western democracies, USA and UK have always supported dictatorships while they are useful to them, economically and politically, and using the fear of communism they both supported both fascist regimes till the last minute.

0823498723498726• 2 years ago

The junta in Greece went next, and Spain made it almost to the end of 1975: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40161770

pdpi• 2 years ago

Hell, Portugal and the UK ceded control over their colonies in China (Macau and Hong Kong respectively) in the late 90s.

somenameforme8• 2 years ago

France is still being kicked out of African states. In recent times it's been Niger, Mali, and Burkina Faso. [1] There haven't been any wars over this yet, but France (as well as the US) was very much intimating that there would be. That was meant to intimidate the government and/or populations, but instead it just resulted in widespread demonstrations (against France) and people enlisting in the military en masse. So France waved their other flag and went home. It wasn't just troops and bases either. France was also exploiting these countries and extracting their mineral wealth (like uranium in Niger) while offering well below market rate royalties. I assume these 'agreements' have changed, but I haven't been following the exact events there lately.

I'm sure there's plenty of others as well. The tentacles of colonialism are getting scarcer, but are still very much there.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/world/france-pull-troops-out-niger-f...

int_19h12• 2 years ago

In case of Mali and Niger, it seems that the locals have simply traded French boots on their necks for Russian ones, so I doubt that things will get any better for them wrt foreign exploitation of their resources.

runarberg2• 2 years ago

It can be argued that the Vietnam war was a colonial war. Even though the original colonial power, France, had (mostly) withdrawn from the conflict after the First Indochina war concluded in 1954. Vietnam was still partitioned with the South having a puppet government from the western colonial powers. By the same logic it can be argued that the Troubles are an extension of the Irish war for independence and as such colonial war. Although I would admit both those examples are quite stretched.

Less stretched though is the struggle to end South Africa’s apartheid and the Israel Palestine conflict. Both Apartheid South Africa, and modern day Israel are fighting to legitimize a settler colonial state (preferably ethno-state of European descendants) which unevenly allocates land and rights to the descendants of the European colonizers (see also Northern Ireland before the good Friday agreement).

And finally we have Western Sahara, which is a full on colony just like Angola, and has an ongoing colonial war for liberation (just like Algeria). The only difference is that the colonial power is Morocco, which is not a European power.

rightbyte3• 2 years ago

If you count failed attempts the Falkland war and IRA comes to mind.

int_19h12• 2 years ago

Do you mean to say that invasion of the Falklands by Argentina was a war of colonial liberation? If so, who was being liberated, exactly?

defrost• 2 years ago

It's not just the European powers .. Dutch colonialism in the East Indies was replaced with Indonesian colonialism.

For anybody unfamiliar the many many islands in the East Indies historically have had easily distinguishable cultures and largely seperate rule until the Dutch consolidation.

The Dutch were replaced as "rulers" by a small group, the most overtly colonial act being the invasion of West Papua following the west largely shrugging their shoulders when independance was sought and "free elections" were rigged via torture.

I'm sure there's good writing on the subject, a cursory search turned up

https://www.e-ir.info/2015/12/17/neo-orientalism-indonesias-...

which seems adequate as a starting point.

jimvdv• 2 years ago

I would love some reading recommendations on the history of Indonesia after Dutch colonialism

anonzzzies• 2 years ago

It seems in a lot of europe people are over the cycle and are thinking that going ultra right is a Good Plan again. Portugal voted way too right these elections.

scotty79• 2 years ago

I think it's a general vulnerability of democracies when things go sideways.

Hardships bring fear for oneself and fear for oneself is psychological reason why people are conservative and right-wing. Those people vote in right-wing parties. And leaders of those parties are not very smart because position they achieved is solely due to psychology of their voters, not actually earned by their own political merits. So the only way those leaders can imagine for retaining power is to dismantle democracy that handed them this power on a silver plate. If they only cultivated fear in the populace they won over (whist avoiding the blame for the hardships) and create political alliances to avoid being replaced with somebody more right-winged they could retain power indefinitely.

0823498723498726• 2 years ago

to dismantle democracy

For hard numbers on how quickly that happened in 1933: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39305877

bloopernova• 2 years ago

People forgot the horrors of world war 2.

Once the WW2 veterans started dying, people on the "right" started drifting back to the old, shitty ideas of fascism.

I wish the greatest generation was still around to verbally tear the fascist demagogues apart.

unpopularopp• 2 years ago

I wish the greatest generation was still around to verbally tear the fascist demagogues apart.

And the socialists and communists, 1945 to 1990 wasn't fun either under the soviet rule. From one shit to another.

banish-m45• 2 years ago

Populist nationalist fascism with a flavor of racism is all the rage again in most of North America and Europe. The masses seek scapegoats and quick fixes to their manufactured discontent and declining fortunes, but somehow they believe narcissistic strongmen promise to fix everything if they just give them total power on day 1.

int_19h12• 2 years ago

"us vs them" is always the easiest thing to sell, probably because parochial altruism is biologically hardwired in us monkeys (or at least that's what the ethologists say their experiments show).

DrNosferatu6• 2 years ago

One iconic photo: https://bit.ly/3y2dYej

worik3• 2 years ago

Beautiful

What is context?

jfyi• 2 years ago

I was curious enough to go looking. It's not very well documented, but seems shared quite a bit.

I found this:

https://blogdelviejotopo.blogspot.com/2014/04/40-aniversario...

DrNosferatu6• 2 years ago

Got some context:

Those soldiers were part of the outer siege [more precisely at the beginning of Rua de Serpa Pinto] to the crowd-packed Largo do Carmo where Marcello Caetano (the successor to Salazar) went to seek refuge from the rebellion - inside the GNR (sort of Gendarmerie) barracks there.

Portuguese state broadcaster RTP has a documentary called “Os Olhos da Revolução” about the ‘lost footage’ of the Revolution.

ca. 28m53s:

https://www.rtp.pt/play/p13273/os-olhos-da-revolucao

(the whole thing is worth to watch ;)

616c• 2 years ago

I went in the last few years to Porugal with my partner and it was so beautiful and modern history was so dark and rich and self aware. I loved Lisbon and Porto. I immediately went back to the site of what I call the Museum of Torture in Lisbon which was essentially the old political prison with the worst rep. They did a fantastic job breaking down torture and the collapse of the end of Portuguese colonialism and fascist rule. Now that I think of it maybe one of my top three museum experiences. Do go if you ever have a chance.

https://www.museudoaljube.pt/en/

DrNosferatu6• 2 years ago

Also Tarrafal:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarrafal_concentration_camp

JetSpiegel2• 2 years ago

Which is basically abandoned. I think there were some talks with local authorities to recover it, but I don't think it will happen in my lifetime.

JetSpiegel2• 2 years ago

Fantastic museum, 5 floors of incredible information. Smack in the middle of the hip neighborhoods too.

DrNosferatu6• 2 years ago

‘Everyone was in the streets. I just felt happiness’ - Portugal recalls the Carnation Revolution:

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/25/everyone-was-i...

H8crilA• 2 years ago

The entire European Union project is a direct result of the failure of colonialism - if we cannot be colonisers competing over far away resources then it makes sense that we should start playing nice together, without war, and present ourselves externally as a single, more powerful organism. Colonialism itself did not stop in 1945, not at all, in fact the very last European (or European/Asian) empire is on its last stretch trying to re-colonise Ukraine. Timothy Snyder explains it perfectly here: https://youtu.be/JVs2y-YeiFM?t=3682

EDIT: Given the replies below that I suggest reading my comment perhaps more than once. It seems some people are quick to jump onto some wrong conclusions after grep'ing two or three words from the paragraph I wrote :)

fsckboy• 2 years ago

the whole world is the direct result of colonialism, so what? meet the human race.

alephnerd4• 2 years ago

If EU "colonization" was so bad, why did formerly developing countries like Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Bulgaria, etc work so hard to join the EU, and currently developing countries like Armenia, Georgia, Serbia, Bosnia, etc still try to ascend into the EU?

And also the fact that HDI metrics of most of Eastern and Southern Europe only broke the 0.9 (very very highly developed) because of EU funding and support.

Edit: you aren't arguing that the EU is a neo-colonial/imperialist project. I answered as such assuming you are anti-EU. +1 on Snyder btw - highly recommend reading "Postwar" if anyone has the time.

Macha2• 2 years ago

I don't think the claim is that the EU is colonizing people, but rather the impulse for the large European countries was basically "we can't be relevant by having huge colonies any more so let's try being relevant by being a unified block"

Which is basically true, though the primary motivator was to interlink economies to avoid another war in Europe as started ww1 and ww2

petsfed• 2 years ago

There's a pretty big difference between how the Spanish Empire worked, and how the EU works. For one, it's not like heavily armed conquistadors are setting out from Brussels to Tblisi or something to forcibly indoctrinate Georgians into the brilliance of the EuroZone.

Insofar as the EU relationship to its member states is extractive, its not principally extractive, nor is it primarily parasitic in nature. And anyway, EU expansion is driven entirely by applications to join, not efforts to annex.

That's not to say that anything like the EU is necessarily good, just that its unambiguously not a colonial/imperialist project, and its a weird non sequitur to act like it is.

quotz8• 2 years ago

Would you say the same thing if Canada tried to join a military alliance with Russia? Of course what would happen is a total overnight invasion of Canada by the USA. Something similar happened in the 70s with the Cuban Missile Crisis. Total overnight naval blockade of Cuba with imminent threat of escalation.

0823498723498726• 2 years ago

The Cuban Missile Crisis was 60s: 1962.

Unfortunately, having worked together to defuse it, both Kennedy and Khrushchev were cancelled soon after.

int_19h12• 2 years ago

Was Canada occupied by US for >300 years? If they were, I think it would be totally legitimate for them to seek a military alliance with Russia.

rs999gti• 2 years ago

European Union project

I thought it was to unite EU to prevent another World War happening and to join coal resources?

keybored2• 2 years ago

The entire European Union project is a direct result of the failure of colonialism - if we cannot be colonisers competing over far away resources then it makes sense that we should start playing nice together, without war, and present ourselves externally as a single, more powerful organism.

Why wage war in Europe when you can peacefully exploit the Global South?

Colonialism itself did not stop in 1945,

Yeah I guess France has its whole neocolonialism—

not at all, in fact the very last European (or European/Asian) empire is on its last stretch trying to re-colonise Ukraine.

Oh. I guess that too.

surfingdino2• 2 years ago

> Colonialism itself did not stop in 1945,
Yeah I guess France has its whole neocolonialism—

It's over for France. Putin sent Wagner to set former French colonies on fire. Why do you think Macron is talking about sending French weapons and soldiers to Ukraine? Payback for dismantling the French order in Africa.

surfingdino2• 2 years ago

present ourselves externally as a single, more powerful organism

Except in 1989 Germany got the keys to Europe and jumped in bed with Russia screwing over Europe in the process. Because once you get away with murder, you don't fear doing it again.

banish-m45• 2 years ago

Never forget Spanish, Portuguese, French, British, Danish, and Dutch, and later, American mercantile colonialism led to the exploitation, suffering, and deaths of ~100 million indigenous and ~15 million African peoples for profits that built the US and Europe and the fortunes of a small cadre of elite landowners.

US colonialism lived on through economic and military interventionism through Manifest Destiny in N America and Monroe Doctrine in the greater Americas for more than 2 centuries, and still continues to meddle to this day. An explicit policy of American military supremacy post-WW2 is one of the fundamental genesises of the Cold War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_Haitian_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Government_of_Cuba

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ni...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_Ha...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_occupation_of_th...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_PBFortune

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d%27%C3%A...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Brazilian_coup_d%27état

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Hemisphere_Institute_f... (School of the Americas)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Banzer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_FUBELT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d%27état

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Honduran_coup_d%27%C3%A9t...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Salvadoran_coup_d%27%C3%A...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinaltrainal_v._Coca-Cola_Co.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Venezuelan_uprising_attem...

Finally, in the recent few years, Africa countries are becoming more self-aware and escorting colonial vestiges of control out the door to forge their own paths.

Tagbert4• 2 years ago

We Americans may need to take notes on this depending on the results of this fall's election.

redeeman2• 2 years ago

maybe americans should try do sometyhing about the obvious messing with fair elections.. perhaps it could start by copying the EU system of voter ID and paper ballots

worik3• 2 years ago

...and proportional representation

Tagbert4• 2 years ago

those are not the risks to fair elections. politicians who deny the election results and use lies and misdirection to convince their followers that the election was "stolen" are the true risks.

worik3• 2 years ago

Defend your democracy with a broader view

Do not fall into the trap blaming a demagogue, where did they come from? Why?

Not much to do with politics, much to do with culture

Tagbert4• 2 years ago

Oh I know that the supporters are willing participants in the big lie meant to undermine the elections and democracy in general.

keybored2• 2 years ago

Before Trump: America is over if Trump gets elected

After Trump: America is over if Trump gets re-elected, for realsies this time

He was a bad and incompetent president and a loose enough screw to make anything happen, but the liberal imagination has a tendency to be hyperbolic.

0823498723498726• 2 years ago

loose enough screw to make anything happen

eg "stand back and stand by"; cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_6_United_States_Capito...

At least the SA pretended not to be a paramilitary organisation, but masqueraded as a "gymnastics club" before they got into power: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmabteilung#:~:text=More%20...

int_19h12• 2 years ago

As a gun owner with a bunch of ARs in the safe, I used to run in hardcore pro-Trump far right circles for many years. What I've seen there is, quite literally, people preparing for war.

I'm not saying that all or even most Trump voters are like that. But there are definitely quite a few people like that basically just sitting and waiting for a clear go-ahead signal from someone whom they trust, and they are already well-armed and somewhat organized. And they all seem to trust Trump.

euroderf• 2 years ago

IIRC... In the Yom Kippur War (1973), (fascist) Portugal was the only country that allowed American heavy lift (C-5's) to land & refuel whilst ferrying armor & supplies to Israel.

0823498723498726• 2 years ago

currently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lajes_Field#United_States_Air_...

forinti• 2 years ago

Portugal is perhaps the best example of how colonialism doesn't really benefit the common man. The colonial wars only made sense to those few rich portuguese who had land in Africa.

The whole Salazar period was one of stagnation and many people (my family included) had to leave Portugal for better (or just some) opportunities elsewhere.

rich_sasha• 2 years ago

To me, it is remarkable how many things we think utterly unthinkable today are actually quite recent, very much in living history.

Western Europe had an officially fascist government 50 years (+1 day) ago. ~60 years ago Black people in the US were officially discriminated, enshrined in law. Franco-Algerian wars also finished 62 years ago, and saw atrocities worthy of the worst ethnic cleansing of WWII. Balkan wars are still more recent and depressingly deadly too. Alan Turing committed suicide 70 years ago, being pursued after the "crime" of homosexuality. Not to mention some of the stuff going on today...

We take so much for granted, the world really is a nicer place than it used to be.

anthk• 2 years ago

Two fascist goverments, actually. Also, the US one it's worse: apartheid like laws happened under a democracy, not under a banana republic.

wizzwizz4• 2 years ago

We take so much for granted, the world really is a nicer place than it used to be.

And because we take it for granted, we act as though it'll be around forever. There are still people who don't want these things. If we get complacent, they'll be gone before we know what we've lost.

bencelaszlo• 2 years ago

There were "human zoos" in Western Europe even after WWII...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_zoo

renewiltord• 2 years ago

It's interesting that societies accidentally mimic Roman Dictatorship. Periods of change result in the populace voluntarily handing over power to some sole authoritarian that they hope can cut through the coordination problem and fix some big problem. Then inevitably that person overreaches and we have to overthrow them.

banish-m45• 2 years ago

Ford and Hearst were Nazi sympathizers who almost push the US into the arms of fascism against Britain. The US wasn't flirting with catastrophe, it was banging it 2x a week. FDR saved America not once, but twice.

davoneus• 2 years ago

Let's not forget Charles Lindbergh in that group either. He was wildly anti-semitic, and spoke glowingly of Hitler frequently, even into the 40s. Maybe it was due to that medal he received from Hermann Gohering.

banish-m45• 2 years ago

Aye. Ford and Hitler were BFFs. And Smedley Butler stood up to an alleged cabal of industrial fascists who believed he would support an American domestic coup.

In 1934, America Nazis even had their very own summer camp for boys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Wille_und_Macht

The German-American Bund (American Nazis org) held a rally of 20k in NYC @ MSG in 1939.

Political scapegoating, violence, and propaganda twisting narratives and history are as old as time. Recall the fate of the Cathars, Armenians, Romani, and the Holocaust.

mopsi5• 2 years ago

Lindbergh was a prominent speaker for the America First Committee, which has uncanny resemblance to the MAGA crowd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

The Iranian attack on Israel seems to have had similar (but milder) effect on MAGA as Pearl Harbor had on AFC.

TaurenHunter• 2 years ago

Longest dictator rule so far:

1 Fidel Casto Cuba 52

2 Chiang Kai-shek Republic of China 47

3 Kim II-sung North Korea 45

4 Yumjaagiin Tsedenbal Mongolian People's Republic 44

5 Muammar Gaddafi Libyan Arab Republic 42

6 Paul Biya Cameroon 41

7 Omar Bongo Gabon 41

8 Enver Hoxha People's Republic of Albania 40

9 Mohamed Abdelaziz Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic 39

10 Francisco Franco Spanish State 39

11 Eamon de Valera Ireland 37

12 Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo Equatorial Guinea 37

13 Gnassingbe Eyadema Togo 37

14 Jose Eduardo dos Santos Angola 37

15 Robert Mugabe Zimbabwe 37

16 Josip Broz Tito Yugoslavia 36

17 Antonio de Oliveira Salazar Second Portuguese Republic 36

18 Todor Zhivkov People's Republic of Bulgaria 35

19 Ali Khamenei Iran 35

20 Alfredo Stroessner Paraguay 34

DrNosferatu6• 2 years ago

Why was this post’s original title changed? It provided important context:

“Portugal Overthrew its Fascist Regime 50 Years Ago Today to Become a Democracy”.

Portugal's democracy turns 50

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