Memories from when you were a baby might not be gone

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-00844-9

by LinuxBender • 2 years ago

62 50 2 years ago

Here’s a direct link to the article mentioned in the title: https://www.science.org/content/article/are-your-earliest-ch...

Razengan• 2 years ago

I like to think that the time before our earliest memories is just the NPC period before we logged on this character.

twiceaday• 2 years ago

That NPC is still in you, you just got added. It cant speak for itself, not with words, so you are free to tell the story that it's just you in there.

bluSCALE4• 2 years ago

The pure soul was corrupted and converted to an NPC, beaten by rules and structure to follow a clear path where choice is an illusion.

SamPatt• 2 years ago

Maybe those infant memories exist, but they aren't accessible to our adult minds because our understanding of sensory data at the time was so different from our more developed minds?

The data is still there, but it's in a forgotten file format.

m4632• 2 years ago

I had a friend who had a sibling that had a mental illness.

When she was ill, she could recall other memories while she was ill.

and vice versa. She could not recall what she did when she was ill while on medication.

Sort of more than plain memories too, like how she was thinking, deciding, frame of mind, what she felt, etc.

milleramp• 2 years ago

and the hardware has been updated.

Accujack• 2 years ago

We are, all of us, born EBCDIC. The world teaches us ASCII, and we can make no sense of all we knew.

qingdao99• 2 years ago

This was my guess. I believe I have experienced this as an adult too: I played on a special Minecraft server (an anarchy server) for a year or so, and despite spending so much time on it, I can hardly remember my first few days on there. I have no memory at all of being at the spawn location. I believe it's because of what you described - as I continued to play on the server, my understanding of how it worked changed completely so my initial memories no longer made sense under my new framework.

madaxe_again• 2 years ago

I think it’s similar to that, but the analogy doesn’t quite hold.

It’s a bit more like they’re there, on the hard drive, but they aren’t in the FAT.

Our memories operate on association, be that by topic or by causal chain. Infant memories are laid down without those associations.

I have some early conscious memories - I remember my second birthday, our neighbour walking on stilts in his garden, finding a snake in a gutter at the end of our garden - things which left an impression. I know these are memories as my parents have zero recall of any of these events, yet talking to my au pair of the time a few years ago, she, who was present, does remember the stilts, and the snake.

Interestingly, since having an infant daughter of my own, I feel those primordial memories that I don’t consciously recall far more presently - I’ll cuddle her just so, or will tuck her into bed, or will make stupid noises while feeding her, and will have a moment of “she is the baby. I am the baby. She is the baby” with either just a feeling of familiarity or in some cases a brief glimpse of visual information.

It’s an interesting topic - along with how “past life” memories form, as apparently about as soon as I could talk I was keen to lecture anyone who would listen on mongol siege warfare in the levant.

veunes• 2 years ago

Wish I was able to covert some files to "a forgotten file format"

rincebrain• 2 years ago

I am likewise of the opinion, having observed various things (in particular how people in severely altered states of consciousness like dissociative drugs can sometimes remember things from previous experiences that they cannot recall when not on those drugs), that a lot of memory "loss" is just that our process of memory recall is basically setting the same variables and then running the machine again, and if the code has churned since then, obviously the result will vary (and then be written as varied, since memory recall also stores the new result) - and if it's churned too much, it fails sanity checks entirely.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF• 2 years ago

That kinda jives with "compression is understanding". If recalling a memory depends, as a sibling comment says, on "re-running the machine", then you can't recall it if you can't intuit how you thought at the time.

As if you compressed a chess game by using a chess engine and saying, "The move ranked #2, the move ranked #1, the move ranked #1" and some very tight arithmetic encoding. If you come back and decompress it with a different engine, it'll put out similar results for a little bit, then diverge into nonsense.

(All speculation, for fun of course)

Sometimes I feel at odds with my memories. There are certain images I always return to, and I'm not sure why. I'm not even sure what emotions they evoke. Nostalgia, I guess. There is one overseas trip where I barely remember anything, except that I hated it. I feel like I fucked up my childhood and need a do-over, but they say everyone feels that.

michaelsbradley• 2 years ago

You might think you remember... when you were 18 months old, or that time you had chickenpox when you were 2—but you almost certainly don’t... People generally remember nothing from before age 3

I have distinct visual and auditory memories from when I was about 15 months old and going forward. I can still recall them in exact detail. These were not events anyone ever spoke of, to plant seeds as it were; it was many years later in my early teenage years when my parents were reminiscing about their first house in Texas that I recalled them to my parents and they were flabergasted. It had never occurred to me that not everyone (turns out most people, it seems) don't have memories going back that far.

Now, I don't think it makes me "special" — it's just something about how I remember things: very, very visually, kind of immersive "full screen" in my mind's eye.

SushiHippie• 2 years ago

Maybe it's (something similar to) Eidetic Memory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eidetic_memory

dw_arthur• 2 years ago

I would say I have a poor to average memory and I can recall one mundane scene from being an infant. I was also creeped out when my 3 or 4 year old brother said he could remember being in the womb.

pizzafeelsright• 2 years ago

I do 100% remember starting at 18 months verified by parents. Memories not remembered are forgotten.

jwells89• 2 years ago

I can remember a handful of scenes dating back to age 2 or 3, and maybe a bit earlier. How well varies, like as I’m writing this my recall ability is somewhat weak, likely because I’m tired. If they happen to cross my mind earlier during the day when I’m more alert they’re fairly vivid, considering their age (~33 years).

JKCalhoun• 2 years ago

I think it was on HN, a blog/story about a guy that walked around the world a number of times — over the course of a decade or so.

I recall the extreme isolation, boredom allowed him, in time, to go completely back to his earliest childhood in his memories.

Maybe someone remembers that article.

pfannkuchen• 2 years ago

Yeah it seems like memory is a graph and you need the right path to get somewhere. Sometimes distant memories only have a few ways in and you don’t have a world map.

nicolas_t2• 2 years ago

We moved out of our first house when I just turned 4. Many years later as a young adult when we were discussing research on early childhood memories with my parents (specifically the theory that children form childhood memories seeded by parents retelling), I surprised my parents by drawing the layout of our home, my nanny’s house and the school. Like you, I have very clear visual memories and can remember scene very well (but people‘s face lack details which is logical considering that I’m incapable of recognizing people)

blowski3• 2 years ago

I remember our dog lying down next to me when I was a baby. Problem is, we didn’t have a dog when I was a baby. Maybe I invented the memory, maybe it was a different dog. Without any way to verify people’s recollections, these are just cute anecdotes.

intrasight• 2 years ago

"almost certainly don’t" is strong language - but they're not saying you don't. I'll interpret as meaning that most of our memories were "implanted" but by no means all.

I have very strong visual memories of events from when I was still in a crib to the present. Lots of those memories are from when I was alone so there was nobody who could have implanted them.

Also, neuroscience says (unless theories have changed) that all memories are "implanted" in that memory works like DRAM. Every time we remember something, it's getting retrieved and then written back to long term storage. It's a destruction-recreation process.

CrimsonCape• 2 years ago

I remember my mother changing my nappy, she laid me on top of the washing machine. cant remember what age that was but it was definitely within the first year of my life.

blowski3• 2 years ago

How do you know the memories are accurate? How do you know how the memories got there?

Staple_Diet• 2 years ago

Refreshing to see my old Prof quoted. This is an intensely intriguing area of research, not only the natural occurring phenomenon of infantile amnesia but also the experiments created to explore this area. For example tagging and reactivating engrams in separate contexts has shown us how to essentially create false memories, exposing possible mechanisms of PTSD triggers, further, stressing mothers or pups out in critical post-partem periods has revealed how not only early life stress can impact physiology, but that epigenetic changes can occur in the mother that then affect the physiology and functioning of subsequent litters.

CSMastermind• 2 years ago

However real they may seem, your earliest treasured memories were probably implanted by seeing photos or hearing your parents’ stories about waiting in line for the spinning teacups.

Call me skeptical of this explanation.

As a small talk conversation starter, I've developed a habit of asking people what their earliest memory was.

For lots of people they don't have any memories from early childhood. I'd say the most common age I hear is around 5 or 6. The oldest I heard was a 30-year-old who doesn't remember anything before high school.

But when there are those early memories, they are short, strong, and associated with fear. But not consequential in the 'lore' that a parent would develop about a child.

One girl told me about a time when she was at a restaurant with her dad. He got up and left the booth, and she was scared to be alone.

Another story was about throwing a toy car and watching it puncture a soda can, which then began spraying, and being scared, not knowing what was going on.

A guy related a story to me about hearing their parents talk about being pregnant with their sibling (who is 2 years younger than them). And he distinctly remembers their emotions, their stress, and how it made him feel (scared).

It's not like the parents are telling their kids about that one time they got up for a few minutes in a restaurant or that one scary time a dog barked at them or that time they rode in a car with a cigarette smoker and the smell was disgusting.

They'll remember one sensory input like the image of a can spraying soda or the smell of smoke or the words someone said and then they'll remember, distinctly, the emotion. When they tell the story, you can tell they know exactly how they felt in the moment.

That just doesn't jive with saying they reconstructed those memories.

cableshaft• 2 years ago

But when there are those early memories, they are short, strong, and associated with fear.

Yep, although I'd expand that to any strong emotion. I have early memories of embarrassing moments and times when I had a lot of fun also.

But the first thing I can still remember was definitely fear, as it was of me drowning, at age... I want to say 3, but I'm not sure exactly when it was anymore, maybe it was 4. We were on vacation visiting my grandparents in another state, and were in their pool. I was to stay against the side 'cleaning the pool' by using a scrub brush and rubbing it on the ledge of the pool, and apparently at one point I didn't stick to the ledge, because I remember going under and swallowing some water and my parents noticing and coming to my rescue. I ate cheese and crackers at their table afterwards. He also had a golf cart and I remember driving that up and down the block.

That's pretty much it for that young. Next thing after that is while I was in pre-school, and I only remember a few things from that time.

And for anything earlier than like, high school, I don't have a lot more than just a few images I can mentally pull up of any given memory, and the knowledge of what happened on a kind of basic level (anything too detailed is pretty much gone now).

And if there are pictures that helps a lot. I can remember a few details not present in the pictures, but without the pictures I doubt I'd remember that happening at all.

m4632• 2 years ago

associated with fear

I think this is true. And I recall reading that adrenaline helps form strong memories, which makes sense (best to remember your existential fear of tigers forever)

I was young, maybe 2nd grade, and the teacher pointedly ignored my raised hand. I ended up peeing in my chair. I remember it pretty well. :)

I also remember revisiting that 2nd grade classroom, and the room (and desks!) was MUCH smaller than I remember. My memories were from eyeballs closer to the ground looking around at a spacious room.

rerdavies• 2 years ago

I also have a hobby of asking people what their earliest memory was.

My first memory is firmly datable to 10 days after my 3rd birthday. The assassination of John F. Kennedy was announced over the radio while I has sitting down with my mum at the kitchen table. Not a particularly traumatic memory. The response was surprisingly intellectual: something along the lines of "hmm the world is complicated", so not particularly traumatic. The memory has definitely never been externally re-implanted, but I sometimes wonder if it is a memory of a memory of a memory. It is nonetheless very vivid with lots of visual detail. There are a few other memories that are of events that occurred before my 4th birthday, but none that can be firmly dated.

I agree. In my experience, first memories dating to 5, 6 or 7 years old, or occasionally even later are pretty common; those dating to 3 or 4 years old, less common. I've never met anyone who has a memory that can be dated to before their 3rd birthday.

But the biggest challenge for almost everyone is attaching dates to early memories.

drewcoo• 2 years ago

Memory is malleable.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/am-i-right/201307/yo...

Your earliest memories have had the most chances to be changed and not reflect what really happened.

So what, exactly, might not be gone? Something that formed early and was edited over and over and over by experiences through a lifetime?

tivert2• 2 years ago

You might think you remember taking a trip to Disneyland when you were 18 months old, or that time you had chickenpox when you were 2—but you almost certainly don’t. However real they may seem, your earliest treasured memories were probably implanted by seeing photos or hearing your parents’ stories about waiting in line for the spinning teacups. Recalling those manufactured memories again and again consolidated them in your brain, making them as vivid as your last summer vacation.

But not always. I have a handful of memories from before I was 2 and a half, and they're real. I know because they're mainly of mundane stuff that would be unremarkable to adults but would have been much more significant to a small child (e.g. apartment maintenance man coming to fix an appliance). No one would tell a kid stories of that stuff.

I also know they're from before 2.5 because that's when we moved from an apartment to a house, and they were clearly from a different home. I think that's probably why I remember them today: they were obviously very early, so I valued them even as a very young child an rehearsed them. A few of them got distorted and mixed with stuff from a little later (e.g one of being outside my old apartment, being shown something my parents confirmed was there, but the setting was transmogrified with features of an apartment I was regularly driven by as a 3+ year old).

doctorpangloss• 2 years ago

mundane stuff that would be unremarkable to adults but would have been much more significant to a small child (e.g. apartment maintenance man coming to fix an appliance). No one would tell a kid stories of that stuff.

While I believe you, I rehearse stories with my 2 year old about mundane things that happened yesterday, last week, last month to him a few times a day.

That said I am pretty confident the article is correct both from my personal experience and what I’ve read as a layperson regarding child development.

There’s a lot of research about biographical stories being a very American cultural phenomenon. My parents never did this with me, and I have maybe 1/10th-1/100th of the memories of childhood compare to an average American with no immigrant parents.

tivert2• 2 years ago

While I believe you, I rehearse stories with my 2 year old about mundane things that happened yesterday, last week, last month to him a few times a day.

Not my memory. The one I'm specifically referring too is a visual memory of a very specific cleanup activity I don't think my parents even saw or would talk about. It's certainly not something they would have talked about later.

catlikesshrimp• 2 years ago

I have memories from when I was 3. They are blurry and scarce of details, but I know they are mine and untainted because nobody else remembered those episodes. They could confirm details they hadn't thought of until then.

The same happens with more recent memories of what happened 10 or even 20 years later: not everybody remembers when I recall a shared experience, but some do. So, at least I know my brain isn't fabricating tales.

What I can't understand is that most of those memories aren't traumatic. Not even of important events e.g. asking my very young mother how to tell apart left sock from right sock ;(

hosh• 2 years ago

I have a single memory before I was 6 months old. I was young enough to not be able to move much, not even to flip over, and everything was black and white. It was not a story my parents planted. I remember being in a crib and being picked up by my father. That’s it. For a long time, I thought it was something when I was older, until I had kids of my own and had a better idea of infant development.

The more I recall this memory, the more I can tell, I am recalling a copy of the memory rather than directly experiencing that memory.

poulsbohemian2• 2 years ago

Maybe there is something to this kind of moment as being particularly memorable, because one of the distinct moments I can recall that I know had to have been before 12 months was playing on the floor with my grandfather. He had a stroke not long after, which is how I know this had to have been the timeline. I can see the 1970s carpet, I know he was there bouncing me around as you do with a baby, and then mom came around the corner. That stuff can't just be an implanted suggestion from a picture - it almost makes me wonder is there a kind of micro trauma of being separated from the adult and then seeing them again that provokes a memory to be generated? Is there something novel about this kind of moment that causes memory to kick in and capture the moment, even though I can't remember what I ate for lunch yesterday?

mongol• 2 years ago

Yeah I have similar memories. By now they are memories of recalled memories, degraded like an old VHS tape. But I am certain they are real because they meant a lot to me when I was very young (but older than a toddler). I.e. I have toddler memories I often returned to as a young kid.

animal531• 2 years ago

I also have one from when I was a baby.

A woman who wasn't my mother carried me out from a house porch into the sunlight with my head on her left hand (heart) side.

There isn't much more to it and I try to not recall it too hard and/or often because it's far too easy to add false detailing to it.

StefanBatory• 2 years ago

"The more I recall this memory, the more I can tell, I am recalling a copy of the memory rather than directly experiencing that memory. "

I feel that is very true. I have some memories from when I was young that aren't really clear to me. It's more of a feeling thing rather than something specific.

And every time I think on that I wonder how much my mind fills in that I didn't remember.

spaceman_20202• 2 years ago

Why do some people have no memories of their early childhood (below 5-6 years) while others remember quite a bit from the time that they were 2-3?

I have strong memories of my life since I was 3. My wife, otoh, says she can’t remember anything until she was 6+

seeknotfind• 2 years ago

Why are some people 5ft tall and some people 6ft? Why are some people perpetually in a bad mood and other people are annoying? I would be more surprised if everyone was the same.

spaceman_20202• 2 years ago

Well, we know why some people are 5ft tall and some are 6ft (genetics and diet).

I’m asking do we know why some people retain early childhood memories and some don’t?

poulsbohemian2• 2 years ago

I've thought a lot about this over the years as it feels like I can remember a lot from before the age of three. This has gotten me thinking if I'm really remembering, or if say, pictures of events or things parents shared caused me to believe I was remembering. The thing is though, much of what I really remember is stuff I've never talked about with anyone - the first time I saw a dead bird or playing in the sandbox or seeing the sagebrush blow by from the backseat of the car on a road trip that must have been 1978. And, the more I create prompts for myself - say something like "What can I remember about my Kindergarten classroom?" for example, the more the memories start flooding back. Heck, I feel like I can remember individual days at pre-school, and I would have only been 3 or 4. I definitely remember the Iran hostage crisis being on TV at grandma's house, and I wouldn't have been more than 2 when that happened.

All that to say... I think some of it is the result of either novelty or trauma. Like when the brain first experiences something, it is more likely to make a point to remember it over it being something less novel and thus less memorable. What's odd to me is I can remember pictures of some events that must have happened before I was about 4 that I really don't remember apart from seeing the pictures and acknowledging that apparently I was there - which tells me the things I do remember must be actual memories rather than some kind of implanted suggestion.

yetihehe• 2 years ago

I've thought a lot about this over the years as it feels like I can remember a lot from before the age of three.

Some people can, some cannot. My first memory is when I couldn't yet speak, could barely walk, was near some big pot, wanted to go inside, dad put me inside, then immediately started crying because I couldn't get out myself, dad took me out. We had that pot until about 5yr ago, it was about 30L.

But overall, I had maybe only a dozen total memories up to middle school that I can remember last time I wondered about this (when pondering Johnny Mnemonic plot). I have overall pretty bad memory. I was even on one memory training course, but it didn't help.

Our memories work associatively, so probably we have a lot of memories which we can't access just because they are not associated properly or we don't remember the triggers. Probably there is some "list of triggers" association with some memories working like an index.

Seb-C• 2 years ago

Except for one scene, I don't recall anything before 5 years old.

However, there is always something that bothered me: I remember the exact moment at 5 years old where I got out of the shower room confused and afraid because I could not remember anything.

So it is not like my memory gradually faded, but really that there is a specific moment in time when it happened.

I also remember that at several times in my life, from as early as 5~6 and up to today, I was wondering about the fact that I could not remember anything from before 5 (like a recursive memory).

Anyone else in this case?

alienicecream• 2 years ago

You don't really remember a childhood memory unless you can bring back the feeling you had at the time, and that only happens sometimes, on its own. If you could remember your childhood as it really was you'd think adult life is hollow and fake by comparison.

Memories from when you were a baby might not be gone

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