Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

https://airlive.net/reports/2024/03/09/report-both-pilots-of-an-a320-fall-asleep-in-the-cockpit-for-28-minutes/

by mfcc64 • 2 years ago

109 119 2 years ago

airlive.net

bombcar2• 2 years ago

First question - how do we tie this to Boeing? (A joke, of course)

Second, interesting to note planes don’t have deadman switches.

HPsquared• 2 years ago

Unlike trains, there isn't one action that is basically always safe (stop the train). A dead man switch activating at the wrong time, could itself cause an accident.

Johnny555• 2 years ago

It doesn't have to stop the plane, it could just trigger a cockpit alarm.

sand5002• 2 years ago

Some planes can land themselves now:

https://discover.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/#autoland

jxcole• 2 years ago

Each pilot can have a button they must always press, if both are released loud tritones alarms and flashing will fill the cockpit, something no one can sleep to.

SequoiaHope• 2 years ago

Simple, cut the engines. /s

amluto3• 2 years ago

That’s true, but there are plenty of other options. For example, a dead-man switch could:

Send an alert via transponders that it has been activated.

Maintain level flight but avoid terrain. (After a waiting period in which a pilot can deactivate this feature.) Or descend to a safe altitude if cabin pressure is lost.

Activate a mode in which the plane could be remotely flown or directed to land itself.

Alert flight crew that the pilots are incapacitated.

Or the most basic: make some noise to wake up the pilots.

readyman• 2 years ago

Another of seemingly infinite reasons why trains > planes.

Sayrus• 2 years ago

Following flight plan and ensuring the plane doesn't crash is already a great deadman switch for a plane mid flight !

This[1] StackExchange thread does give some pointers as to why that may be.

[1] https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/81234/is-there-...

firebaze• 2 years ago

Easy:

* No wheels fell off (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/united-...)

* No doors departed the plane (https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/06/business/ntsb-boeing-alaska-d...)

* No anti-ice ignited the engines (https://www.flightglobal.com/airframers/faa-proposal-targets...)

* No gear failure (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39644341)

* No unintended pitch-down (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maneuvering_Characteristics_Au...)

* Pilots well rested :)

adamm255• 2 years ago

Well rested now! Sounds like they may have needed extra time on the ground.

Sounds like ATC and a nearby plane was trying to get hold of them while they were napping. Wonder how this would have been handled in another part of the world. Unresponsive aircraft for 28 mins…

readthenotes1• 2 years ago

"how do we tie this to Boeing?"

One of the Boeing 737 Max safety features is that the pilots are so anxious flying it that they are too scared to fall asleep

adrianmonk2• 2 years ago

deadman switches

Seems like they could address this by just changing procedures.

If one pilot wants to take a nap, require a third crew member to come sit in the cockpit and make sure the other pilot doesn't doze off. When two pilots are awake, they can monitor each other, but if one is (intentionally) asleep, they can't do that, so have someone take over that function.

apantel• 2 years ago

But you’ll need a fourth person to watch in case all three fall asleep.

lupire3• 2 years ago

Procedures don't work well when people are incentivized to violate them. Confessing to sleeping on the job is a career threatening move.

ApolloFortyNine• 2 years ago

The PIC advised the Jakarta ACC that BTK6723 experienced radio communication problem and currently the problem has been resolved.

Did they self report after or was there a review triggered somehow? Their excuse actually was pretty impressive honestly, almost like this has happened before.

belter• 2 years ago

"'More than half' of pilots have slept while flying" - https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-24296544

ibejoeb• 2 years ago

I don't know much about the cockpit monitoring systems that Airbus has, but I know every cheap toyota in the past 10 years yells at me if I so much as glance at a billboard.

baron816• 2 years ago

Can someone explain to me why we still need pilots? Could we at least have pilots serve as a backup to a fully autonomous system?

dkasper• 2 years ago

Edge cases

smt88• 2 years ago

Pilots already serve as a backup to an autonomous system. They're also useful for takeoff and landing.

defrost• 2 years ago

Takeoffs, landings, and navigating dense air traffic in controlled spaces are all still "not smooth enough" for autonomous sytems if human life is valued.

Yes, planes can take off and land on auto pilot - but real world conditions throw curve balls, ditto approaches and departures from high traffic airports.

Even "boring" 10 hour point to point legs that might normally be fully autopilot can be a problem in case of mechanical failures or other unexpected events.

taspeotis• 2 years ago

You propose replacing pilots with … pilots?

tomschwiha• 2 years ago

IANAP. I think a lot people enjoy flying airplanes. I think most landings are manual. Thus pilots highly skilled to land safely also in difficult situations. And instruments can fail.

What do you hope for with removing humans in the loop?

samtho3• 2 years ago

This is such an “armchair expert” take on this.

Planes are not fully autonomous. They will not be for a very long time due to the regulatory environment aviation is entrenched in.

LM358• 2 years ago

Frankly it seems more like an "SWE take" more than a regular armchair take.

fennecbutt• 2 years ago

Jesus dude (and general HN culture) OP just asked a damn question, they are starting a conversation.

They didn't make a point, they claimed ignorance by making it a question. Chillllll

IAmGraydon• 2 years ago

Even if unassisted takeoff and landing were possible, no airline is going to accept the risk of operating such a system.

pompino3• 2 years ago

Because the people who own those planes, and people who regulate the airline industry don't want human casualties under their watch - a fairly reasonable concern.

Status-quo is not something you typically argue for, its what you need to argue against. At which point you need to make a positive argument with data that can convince them otherwise.

barbazoo• 2 years ago

You’re ignoring the hard part that they don’t yet use 100% autopilot for.

wiml• 2 years ago

In addition to the other reasons - if someone is going to be qualified to fly the plane as backup, they need regular hours of practice. They could get that in a simulator perhaps, or flying practice flights, or ... by flying the actual plane.

stemlord• 2 years ago

There is no fucking way I'm stepping onto a commercial airliner without highly trained human beings at the helm. That is my SWE/"stemlord" take-- complex software systems, or at least the organizations that produce them, are generally not to be trusted with your life.

no_op• 2 years ago

This is likely achievable in theory now, at least between major airports with ILS-equipped runways, but fully automated systems couldn't handle present traffic coordination procedures. You'd need a series of new standards to replace human-oriented air traffic control with a scheme in which ground computers could directly interface with aircraft flight management systems. Developing something like this and rolling it out on a global basis, in such a safety-critical application, would likely take two or three decades. Not clear it's really worth the trouble, since you'd want backup pilots for unexpected situations anyway.

What would probably make more sense is to just add a single-button auto-land feature, that sends an emergency destress call and configures and invokes existing automatic navigation, approach, and landing features to find the nearest appropriate airport and land. Given how rarely this would be used, there wouldn't be a need for the system to navigate complex traffic patterns, as ATC could just clear other aircraft out of the way. Something like this has recently become available for general aviation aircraft, but I haven't heard about anyone working on it for airliners yet.

tiagod• 2 years ago

You would end up in a world where no human pilots remain to land aircraft where the automation isn't ready to do so.

freitzkriesler2• 2 years ago

whoop whoop Wake Up

I know it's an Airbus but I can see this happening in the not so distant future.

seanmcdirmid2• 2 years ago

It’s actually harder to do nothing and just watch things, it’s its own special kind of fatigue. I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

aaomidi2• 2 years ago

One of the reasons the current "Self Driving" cars kinda suck. Majority of the time you're just not doing anything, but still have to be 100% attentive.

lambdasquirrel• 2 years ago

I've found the self-steering of new cars to be not at all useful for the stated use case. In my car, the self-steering pushes back a bit and deviates from the course ever so slightly so that you have to keep your hands on the wheel. I'd rather steer it myself.

But in those moments where I'm trying to find the UI for adjusting some climate setting, and I don't have my eyes on the road, that's when the self-driving is useful.

Maybe technology creates its own problems. To be fair, the radar cruise control is nice for long drives.

lupire3• 2 years ago

It really is comically reversed. Robots are far better than humans at watching for a long time and jumping in to help instantly with an acute problem when needed (like braking or swerving to avoid an obstacle). Humans are better at interpreting a complex scene and making a high level plan.

fragmede• 2 years ago

In the case of Waymo, you're sitting in the back seat and don't have to pay attention to the driving if you don't want to.

dzhiurgis3• 2 years ago

still have to be 100% attentive.

Starting absolutes is poor.

This just an oxymoron. Highways are designed to take attention off.

On a chill highway drive I’d guess most drivers are no more than 50% attentive, driver assist or not.

dataviz10003• 2 years ago

For context, I was a private yacht chef for 7 years. On long legs of a trip I had to hold watch at the helm for 3 or 4 hour shifts while everyone else rested for their watch. Staying awake while using auto pilot was a special type of mental anguish.

taf2• 2 years ago

I did delivers up and down the Atlantic in 2000s I remember it being awesome. Granted I was 20 and like the time we got too close to a us aircraft carrier and they launched a helicopter that did a fly over to check us out that was pretty great. We also always had lines out to catch fish and let me tell you when that line caught something didn’t matter if it was your shift or not it was “fish on” everyone jumping out of their bunks to help. Best fish tacos ever. I do remember the captain could be pass out drunk and still dock the 70 footer without issue and then stumble below to pass out. But yeah we slept a lot too but underway maybe 6-7 so plenty of time to fix or react big difference from an airplane or even autopilot car

wlesieutre2• 2 years ago

Like the “mostly self driving” car systems where the driver is expected to pay attention well enough to take over if needed

svat2• 2 years ago

I wouldn’t be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often.

From context I guess you meant either "I wouldn’t be surprised if this happens more often" or "I would be surprised if this doesn’t happen more often." (https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?cat=273 has many fun examples of this sort of thing)

seanmcdirmid2• 2 years ago

Oops. And this is what happens when you accidentally double your negatives, thanks for the point out even if it’s too late to edit.

gnyman2• 2 years ago

A small anecdote, I learned/realised this when visiting CERN (many years ago) and seeing someone in the control room playing a computer game on a laptop next to his big displays. So I asked and they said something along the lines that yes, it's allowed because otherwise the people would fall asleep, especially during the night shifts when their job is just to sit there and let the experiment run an be ready to react if necessary.

This seems like a useful solution, but I guess it's hard to do as a policy as there is a fuzzy line between the game taking too much attention and not being interesting enough.

Ekaros3• 2 years ago

Same must apply to many control jobs, including nuclear plants. They can run themselves for most of the time. And it is probably preferable if there is no fiddling on going.

ephimetheus• 2 years ago

So we’re actually being told not to do this, even on night shifts, but I don’t think it’s actually being enforced. I did to some work on my PhD thesis while on shift, though.

theogravity• 2 years ago

Not familiar with any of this - I'm guessing it's ok for one pilot to be asleep as long as there's another active one?

potatoman22• 2 years ago

Sounds like it: "The PIC then asked permission to rest from the SIC and was granted. A few seconds later, the PIC slept and the SIC then took over the PIC duty as PM."

thsksbd2• 2 years ago

Happens all the time.

Both asleep, though, is a big problem. About ten years ago there was a (Delta?) flight to Vegas (?) with both pilots asleep. They flew past their destination and went on their merry way until a flight attendant check up on them.

tasuki2• 2 years ago

flew past their destination and went on their merry way until a flight attendant check up on them.

That... doesn't seem like a great illustration of why both pilots asleep is a big problem :)

jwsteigerwalt• 2 years ago

Until airlines cease to need a scapegoat, they will keep pilots in the cockpit.

sva_• 2 years ago

I dont really know much of anything about aviation, other than being a passenger, but I feel like taking off and landing is still something that needs a pilot. I've been on some rough landings, and I don't think ML is quite there yet to do it.

cgeier• 2 years ago

You don't need ML to do this, there are already auto landing (and auto take off) systems that work very well. The hardest part is taxiing on the airport and taking part in air control procedures doesn't work at all AFAIK.

zabzonk• 2 years ago

i can beat this. my dad was an RAF Vulcan captain and he and his entire crew fell asleep overflying Indonesia going from Australia to UK (they had being delivering to Australia a rocket component in the Vulcan's capacious bomb bay). the flight over Indonesia was completely illegal, but the crew figured that the Indonesian radars could not track the Vulcan (early stealth) and their fighters could not intercept it.

anyway, everyone woke up (reason for sleep never identified, afaik - i suspect hangovers)

this would be mid-60s.

hindsightbias• 2 years ago

Late 50’s, Dad’s F-86 didn’t have a real autopilot but you could slave it to the vor-dme.

It dinged when you went over it and heading went to/from. And now you know why I’m here.

kalleboo• 2 years ago

The Guardian article [0] mentions

One of the pilots had not rested adequately on the night before the flight, according to the report.
“The second-in-command had one-month-old twin babies. His wife took care of the babies and he assisted while at home,” the report said.

More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/09/indonesia-open...

randmeerkat• 2 years ago

More evidence of the importance of mandatory paternal leave.

With negative population growth being such a concern I’m really surprised that there’s not far reaching, comprehensive, pro-family policies being enacted. Society seems stuck in the “productivity” graveyard spiral.

bfeist• 2 years ago

Where is negative population growth a concern? I’m concerned about the opposite.

bufferoverflow2• 2 years ago

So we need an automatic AI system that will watch pilots and sound an alarm if it detects sleeping.

pacifika• 2 years ago

We can adapt that for software engineers to make sure they’re working!

bufferoverflow2• 2 years ago

Doesn't that already exist? My work laptop has all kinds of spyware installed. I assume they are watching all the time.

dave333• 2 years ago

Have a countdown that has to be actively reset by the pilot before it gets to zero or it makes an audible alarm. Can allow it to be turned off manually for busy times or just make any pilot action reset the counter. Can research the optimal counter length but maybe a couple of minutes.

edward28• 2 years ago

Deadman switch for pilots.

coumbaya• 2 years ago

There is exactly that on high speed trains (at least in France), I wonder why it's not on airplanes.

freefaler• 2 years ago

Like a train driver facing a similar issue, the cabin is equipped with a lever that must be continuously pressed, otherwise, an alarm will sound. This lever is designed in a manner that prevents it from being pressed if the driver falls asleep, serving as a mechanical safeguard against dozing off.

rajnathani• 2 years ago

I don't know about in other countries, but commercial pilots in India have random daily schedules - for example, today the flying time could be 1 pm to 8 pm, tomorrow it could be 8 pm to 3 am, then two days later it could be 2 am to 9 am. Given how random the timings are, I'm not surprised about captains falling asleep (maybe not first officers, who are younger (saying this out of hearing an anecdote about this)).

Both pilots of an A320 fell asleep in the cockpit for 28 minutes

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