Beeper Mini is now open-source

by syrusakbary • 3 years ago

127 124 3 years ago

adzm• 3 years ago

Honestly I just want an Android iMessage app. If this forces Apple's hand that would be awesome.

iAMkenough• 3 years ago

Even if it's a slightly lesser version of their Messages app, that would be ideal. Just like their Apple Music and Apple TV apps.

criddell• 3 years ago

I never understood why Google struggled with this. A decade ago they should have cloned iMessage.

zwily• 3 years ago

I can’t tell if this is a joke about how many messaging apps Google has made or not…

skygazer• 3 years ago

Is that really a thing? Do Android users en mass want an additional app specifically to chat with iPhone users? There are so many alternative messaging apps that work fantastically. iPhone users aren’t really clamoring for a Google RCS app. This feels like one of those things that everyone would lose interest in as soon as they got it; it’s just the denial of it that works them up, like not being invited to a party they didn’t really want to go to. I think if Apple had organically offered iMessage for Android, it would largely be either neglected or actively boycotted by Android users.

joelhaasnoot2• 3 years ago

To be honest this is mainly a US thing, and only because iPhone penetration is such a high percentage. Outside of US, Whatsapp and other apps are king

somehnguy• 3 years ago

I don't think anyone wants an iMessage specific messaging app. But if it works on Android like iMessage does on iPhone, I bet people would use it. On iPhone iMessage isn't a specific app, the single app just communicates via iMessage or SMS depending on the participants.

In my circle in the US I don't know anyone that uses a 3rd party messaging app on either platform because that really only works if everyone you want to talk to also uses that specific messaging app. Switching depending on who you're talking to is annoying, so (people I know) don't.

chipgap98• 3 years ago

As a former android user, yes this is something I wanted badly.

It is much less convenient to be in a group chat with an android user.

Rygian2• 3 years ago

As a lone data point, I'm an Android user and I really don't know what iMessage is, why it exists, and why I should care at all.

I've never met anyone whose choice of instant text app is conditioned by the hardware they use.

wvenable2• 3 years ago

Do Android users en mass want an additional app specifically to chat with iPhone users?

Sure. I already have a different app to chat with WhatsApp users, Facebook messenger users, Discord users, Reddit users, etc.

pelagicAustral2• 3 years ago

As a non-North-American, Beeper mini keeps me thinking if the whole point of this feud is about the colour of the bubble surrounding a message. Of, course, I know there is more than that, I mean, there must be... but so far, the debate of whether or or not the common user cares about the cryptographic security of their conversations online does not seem to strike me as the selling point for this type of implementation.

candiddevmike2• 3 years ago

A lot of iMessage user angst around this boils down to "how dare other folks have the privilege of blue bubbles without paying for them"

shermantanktop• 3 years ago

I already get increasing iMessage spam (e.g. random “hello”). I don’t love the idea of opening the door to a large population of additional users unless they are subjected to equivalent abuse controls. And I can’t tell from the discussion so far whether that’d be true or not.

Having worked on large scale fraud systems before, the only controls that work are those where users are risking something of value when they commit abuse. A paid account with a lot of valuable history is great. Banning a free and easy to replace/farm account is useless.

martimarkov2• 3 years ago

No it’s because I’m not sure if the messages I send to them can be easily harvested. Same goes for photos I have shared. Maybe it’s naked photos. Maybe they are photos which show me doing something considered illegal. Idk let’s say I’m speeding on my private road and I send the video which seen out of context is damaging to me.

When the user uses iMessage I can be sure if it leaks - he was either hacked or shared the photo. If he uses a 3rd party client MY data can now be harvested by the 3rd party without my consent or knowledge. The knowledge is the key here because apart from the original 2 reasons for a leak now it’s also the other option of 3rd party app harvesting data.

Get China as an investor is a year or two and… now my data 100% will be harvested.

haswell7• 3 years ago

There’s been too much focus on the color of the bubble, or security, or specific features.

But the real issue boils down to human in/out group dynamics. Being excluded from group chats or having people get frustrated by the lone Android user in the group are powerful forms of peer pressure. And that pressure exists because Apple has pretty clearly made the experience intentionally frustrating.

That said, in the specific feature category: lacking the ability to send a reasonable quality photo or video is also a pretty big issue in 2023.

mbesto4• 3 years ago

bigger than that:

- iMessage works on wifi without a cell connection

- green txts constantly break group messaging to the point where I refuse to add my friends partners who dont have iOS

- there are no abilities to admin group messaging with green txts (change the name, add/remove people, etc.)

It's not just about the color.

whalesalad• 3 years ago

But the real issue boils down to human in/out group dynamics. Being excluded from group chats or having people get frustrated by the lone Android user in the group are powerful forms of peer pressure.

This reminds me of the Don Draper "I don't think about you at all" scene from Mad Men. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlOSdRMSG_k

There is an odd coincidence/overlap with friend groups and overall lifestyle/ideology and imessage vs android or blue vs green bubbles. I have like a few obscure friends who use android and they are all maga or counterculture weirdos. Meanwhile everyone else that I know (literally everyone, including a huge group chat for my gym weightlifting group, all close and extended family) uses an iPhone and iMessage.

Back to don draper: Android users cry about being excluded, but the rest of us don't even think about android users.

It's not Apple's responsibility or obligation to fix this.

__egb__• 3 years ago

And that pressure exists because Apple has pretty clearly made the experience intentionally frustrating.

That pressure exists because the individuals involved in those group settings choose to exert such pressure. It’s not on Apple…just like my getting bullied three decades ago for not having a pair of Pumps was never on Reebok.

Rebelgecko• 3 years ago

For me, the big selling point is better quality photos/videos. Whether I get a video from a non-RCS user it looks like a VHS rip. Sure there's other apps you can use, but realistically I'm not going to convince my friend's grandma to install Signal so she can send me a 10 second cat video

DougN7• 3 years ago

I like that iMessage lets me know if a message was delivered, and also if it was read.

adlpz• 3 years ago

I guess this kind of fully removes the "they're making money out of it" argument from the discussion on the moral(?) implications of reverse engineering the iMessage proto.

Now it's just a matter of: is Apple justified in actively sabotaging interoperability in general?

bigyanshr• 3 years ago

I don’t think any business is obliged to make their products/services interoperable. It’s their business and their decision.

candiddevmike2• 3 years ago

At a certain level of adoption, they should be forced to, IMO. Our monopoly laws never envisioned self contained platforms/marketplaces

ssss11• 3 years ago

While that makes sense if you of one company, but if you think of the interconnectedness of everything digital, it becomes problematic for the end user and there should be rules of interoperability they need to abide by.

Rygian2• 3 years ago

Welcome to the EU, where Apple and a bunch of others at the top are legally mandated to make their messaging interoperable.

olliej5• 3 years ago

I'll try phrasing this differently: should any company be required to provide free use of their infrastructure to non-customers?

progbits• 3 years ago

Wouldn't even have to be free. But currently there is no option.

gary_02• 3 years ago

I'll respond to your question with a question: Why don't you have to pay to send e-mail to GMail users from a non-GMail host?

Zetobal• 3 years ago

16 year old dude reverse engineers iMessages AND writes a better messaging app than google with their 99 attempts over 20 years.

rezonant3• 3 years ago

Google Messages (the current RCS client) is very good. It's far from the first good messaging app they've built. The 99 messaging apps meme is about Google just making another one for no reason. Kind of like "that's enough slices"

blcknight• 3 years ago

Apple has done a good job of making it feel exclusive. It’s like the Berghain of message apps. I wish more friends would move to WhatsApp.

caboteria• 3 years ago

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

joelhaasnoot2• 3 years ago

While true, at least there isn't a hardware lock-in.

pyromaker• 3 years ago

Bold move! Can Apple just acquire the Beeper Mini team to stop this move? Or they could acquire them to make an official Android iMessaging app.

rezonant3• 3 years ago

Can Apple just acquire the Beeper Mini team to stop this move?

No... the code is already released.

zbowling2• 3 years ago

No, it's not because this isn't Beeper Mini. The op got the title wrong, and nobody is clicking the link and reading the readme in the source.

fimdomeio• 3 years ago

If code has been released as open source then the code is out there now. Seems too late to stop. I would also question if apple has any benefit in launching an android app. iMessage is interesting to apple as long as it forces people to buy apple products.

johnnyapol• 3 years ago

Something worth noting: unless I'm missing something, this isn't Beeper Mini (the Android app) but the iMessage-Matrix bridge Beeper created. However, this is still handy if you have a Mac or jailbroken iPhone (edit: for registration, seems like it's not required after the initial setup) as you can self-host it.

iwanttocomment2• 3 years ago

I got an iPhone 15 Pro Max last month. It's great, I dig it. I'm a case-free dude and there are zero scratches on the screen or titanium, the industrial design is tight and amazing. There's finally USB-C, and the camera is great. This was an expensive phone, but it's a timeless design and unless something crazy happens, I strongly suspect it's actually going to take me into 2030.

But I have to tell you. Not a single friend has commented that I'm now on an iPhone. I asked my elderly mom - yes, I previously got her an iPhone before I did, I'm a good son - if I had obtained the magic blue bubbles. She was like "oh yes, I thought something had changed." I am not sexier, thinner or more popular since I suddenly appeared with blue bubbles on iMessage. My own (iPhone-toting) adult daughter didn't mention it. IMO, nobody outside of teenagers care.

code_duck2• 3 years ago

People say only teenagers are keyed into it, but I’ve gotten comments from people in their 40s that my Android phone was lame or “I don’t know why you bought that thing”. Not to the extent that it affected my relationships with them though.

itsmartapuntocm• 3 years ago

Sounds like a good way to suss out the materialistic people in your life to be honest.

constantly2• 3 years ago

As a professional adult I have never come across anyone who has ever commented on someone else’s phone positive or negative or neutral except once in a while someone gets the just released latest and greatest Y and someone may say “oh you got the latest and greatest Y phone, cool, how do you like it?” and that’s it.

I can’t imagine interacting with someone professionally who even thinks for one second positively or negatively about someone based on their phone choice, from five year old Androids to yesterday’s iPhone pro.

hn_throwaway_994• 3 years ago

This is fundamentally the wrong analysis. The idea that people care about being "cool" to get blue bubbles or whatever is not what this is about.

This is about the fact that messaging between an iOS device and Android just sucks at present if the iOS user is on iMessage. I won't hash over all the details, but Google's site trying to convince iMessage to support RCS (which Apple has said they will do in 2024) gives a good overview of the problems: https://www.android.com/get-the-message/

I'm not a teenager, but I certainly care. I'm the only Android user in my family, and I'm sick of getting pixelated videos from my parents. I'm sick of the "Bob liked an image" messages. I'm sick of random messages not showing up in group chats. And while it's not a huge everyday concern, it sucks that there is no secure encryption when I message my family, and worse, all of the group chats that I'm part of result in nobody, even all the other iOS users, getting encryption in those chats.

redserk• 3 years ago

It's not like Google is unbiased here, especially with their ownership of Jibe. Most RCS messages in the US are/will be going through Google...

iwanttocomment2• 3 years ago

So, Google resolved the interop issue with "liked an image" and similar reactions back in 2020. I can't remember that being an issue for years with reasonably modern Android phones.

Yeah, I've had some isues in the past with pixelated videos but again, almost zero in the past few years. But there are ten billion better places to post videos than via group chats, especially to conserve memory on people's devices, and pretty much everyone knows it at this point. Literally everyone I know has been posting videos via Youtube or Facebook or Instagram or Whatsapp or Discord or Slack or Google Drive or Dropbox for years at this point.

But yes, Apple should absolutely support RCS for encrypted messaging in group chats with other devices. 100% with you on that one.

Niksko• 3 years ago

I don't have an iPhone and I don't really use text messages with anyone that does, so I can't speak first hand. But teenage bullying and status symbols / materialistic people aside, my understanding is that the big blue bubble / green bubble thing is group chats and photos and videos. Group chats "just work" via iMessage where as they can be strange via SMS, and photos and videos end up compressed and ugly via SMS.

If you don't group chat or send and receive photos or videos, then yeah, it probably makes zero difference. But e.g. for a family with a new baby, I think I'd be pretty upset if I was the Android user in the sea of iPhones and the baby photos group chat was janky and gave me 10x10 pixel photos.

ryukoposting• 3 years ago

Status symbol products don't make you a more loved or more valuable person? What a concept.

This isn't meant to be condescending to you, I have just gotten SO MUCH CRAP from friends, coworkers, and the like for using a sort-of-old Android phone. We shouldn't be praising Apple for switching to USB-C, we should be asking why they didn't do it 9 years ago.

nijave• 3 years ago

Usually the problem I run into is iPhone users can't be bothered to install other messaging apps so it's either MMS, email, or iMessage. MMS ruins picture quality so is pretty useless

Attaching pictures to email is pretty crappy as well

lolinder3• 3 years ago

This link is to the iMessage bridge that they open sourced 10 (edit: 2) days ago. Has anything changed since then, or is this a duplicate of this?

Edit: 700+ comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722246

Edit: correct link: https://blog.beeper.com/p/imessage-and-phone-registration-ar...

syrusakbary• 3 years ago

Beeper open sourced the iMessage bridge about 2 days ago: https://blog.beeper.com/p/imessage-and-phone-registration-ar... (although I realized one hour ago, that's why I posted it!)

lolinder3• 3 years ago

Oops, you're right, I mixed up the posts. This is the actual duplicate, still has 700 plus comments so I was correct that this is a duplicate of a story that has already been covered extensively:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722246

constantly2• 3 years ago

Just based on the most cursory look, which took less time than it took you to write your comment (considering the links you added taking more time than typing…), they are different repositories by different people for different things.

lolinder3• 3 years ago

I mixed up the posts. There have been a lot of high ranking Beeper posts lately. The one I was thinking of only had 700 comments, but I think it's fair to say that this is a duplicate:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722246

zbowling2• 3 years ago

Can we get a title fix?

guptaneil• 3 years ago

This whole debate seems asinine to me. Erik must know he's in the wrong here. The idea that we can force any company to allow third party clients to their service by regulation is an obviously bad idea. Just because Beeper (probably) isn't doing something shady with user data doesn't mean Apple must be required to trust them.

What if I make a 3rd party client that actively records my users' iMessages and sells them to Facebook? Should Apple be required to support my app too? If not, are they expected to audit and vouch for every third party client? If yes, how is Apple supposed to make any claims about the security of iMessage if I have no control over the client my recipient might be using?

The whole interoperable API argument comes from the same place as "encryption where the good guys have keys," yet somehow demands for interoperability seem to be much more popular on HN. The E2E in E2E encryption stands for end-to-end, which inherently requires trusting both ends. Otherwise you might as well not have encryption.

Note that whether or not companies should be required to support third party clients is a different debate than whether or not Apple should be required to support Android, even if the end result happens to be similar in this case. I think most people defending Beeper are interested in the latter and are willing to burn down encryption to get it via the former. As a user, sure I'd love for my Android friends to use iMessage too. But this is not the way.

(To be clear, I don't think we should regulate that Apple has to support Android either. If I develop a new OS, would every company be required to build a client for their service for my new OS too? But at least I understand the merits of that debate.)

nikanj• 3 years ago

This project exists so Google can go to the (EU) regulators and demand Apple stop anti-competitive actions and lets poor small-time startups like Beeper freely interact with iMessage. The EU is much more likely to protect Beeper from Apple than Google due to them being in the same weight class, so this is a solid strategy.

neontomo• 3 years ago

I was using regular Beeper to consolidate my chat apps into one, but this mess with Android to iPhone has made everything so unstable that I dropped iMessage from the app. I wish they hadn't rocked the boat with Mini, it's affecting the users who don't try to circumvent Apple's lock-in too.

bluesign• 3 years ago

Beeper (before mini) was working with iMessage by relaying messages from VMs, probably one VM for x users.

November 15 ( or a bit earlier, but communicated on that date) they switched to new iMessage bridge, where Beeper client directly communicated with Apple servers.

Beginning of December they launched Beeper Mini.

My theory is: their move to move from VM relay to new bridge caused problems, but VM relay was not sustainable with growth. Maybe Apple started to require re-validation, maybe it was like this to begin with.

So eventually they rolled the dice with Beeper Mini and in the end existing Beeper users have to provide a Mac for validation.

I think this will be good for Beeper, as I guess slowly they will retire iMessage totally. And focus on the on the other bridges. They are a bit more sustainable now.

lopkeny12ko2• 3 years ago

Linus Sebastian (online tech media personality) sums up my thoughts on this perfectly. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXqivw5YLys&t=149

Beeper Mini is now open-source

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