District court rejects Tesla request, Postnord does not have to deliver plates

https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/solna-tingsratt-avslar-teslas-stamning-mot-postnord--33vhqt

by belltaco • 3 years ago

86 125 3 years ago

belltaco2• 3 years ago

According to the ruling, Postnord must be allowed to comment first and now has three days. After that, the district court will make a new decision on the lawsuit.

Hikikomori7• 3 years ago

Like the other suit they 'won', neither have a ruling as only one side has been heard so far. Though temporary relief was ordered in the other case.

bastardoperator• 3 years ago

That was quick.

Jensson8• 3 years ago

It is mostly just USA that is slow. There is no reason to draw these things out.

Jun82• 3 years ago

So, my understanding is as follows (let me know if it's wrong):

* Yesterday's ruling was about ordering to allow the plate manufacturer to hand out plates before they go to Postnord

* This ruling is about the plates that are already with Postcard.

So it seems it's two different things. Also, putting feelings about Tesla and Musk aside, how common is the concept of not doing an overall strike but not doing work for one customer only. I fully support the right of the Tesla mechanics to strike but what about the right of postal workers not striking but not delivering Tesla packages (there was also previous example of dock workers not unloading cars). Is this a right in other countries, too. Can it be exercised for other postal customers for other purposes than their workers striking, e.g. for support of certain political beliefs?

chmod775• 3 years ago

Sympathy strikes are illigal in some places, such as the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solidarity_action

jltsiren• 3 years ago

The US version of a sympathy strike is a union contract that states that employees do not have to cross picket lines. For example, whenever there is a strike at my university, city buses don't go on campus and UPS doesn't make deliveries.

mrmanner7• 3 years ago

Can it be exercised for other postal customers for other purposes than their workers striking, e.g. for support of certain political beliefs?

No - this is limited to labour market conflicts. The Swedish state (courts included) tries not to get involved in such conflicts. Both because of history (there were some unfortunate situations early last century) and because most voters are quite happy with how things work out.

velcrovan• 3 years ago

You may want to read this: When McDonald’s Came to Denmark — https://mattbruenig.com/2021/09/20/when-mcdonalds-came-to-de...

… When I bring this up, people sometimes respond by saying that these kinds of strikes are illegal in the US. This is a true and worthwhile bit of information, but insofar as it is meant to imply that the different legal environment is what accounts for the labor radicalism, this obviously has things backwards. The laws aren’t driving the labor radicalism, but rather the labor radicalism is driving the laws.
[…]
If we [in the US] are ever going to get to Nordic levels of equality, it is really hard to imagine doing it without building a similarly powerful labor movement. You can certainly get some of the way there, such as by copying certain welfare programs, but without the unions, you’ll always be missing a key piece. And while legal and policy reforms can help build the labor movement some, the power of organized labor is not ultimately rooted in the state, but rather in the ability to halt production and wreak havoc even when the state is aligned against it.

Jun82• 3 years ago

Interesting article. It's not just a US vs European thing, however. According to this comparison document linked in the Wikipedia article [https://library.fes.de/pdf-files/gurn/00275.pdf] (dated 2007 so things may have changed), some countries in Europe also ban solidarity action:

"Solidarity action – supporting other workers in their primary action – is by now, in many countries, considered legal under certain conditions, exceptions being Latvia, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and the UK. In Germany and Italy the situation with regard to the rules governing solidarity action is quite complex. In Spain its legality has to be established on a case-by-case basis"

cycomanic2• 3 years ago

It's important to note that both rulings were about a temporary injuction that Tesla applied for.

The ruling here essentially said there is not enough urgency to make a decision without hearing postnord, whom now have 3 days to respond.

s1artibartfast16• 3 years ago

My understanding was that the request was not for delivery, but to let Tesla take possession of the plates.

This seems reasonable to me. If postnord doesnt want to deliver to tesla, thats fine, but then they should reject packages addressed to tesla, not hold take them and hold them hostage.

Jensson8• 3 years ago

There are two different cases. This case was for the post to delivered, it will go to court with no urgent changes. The case that Tesla should be able to pick up the plates at the factory had a preliminary judging that Tesla was allowed to pick it up during the trial.

s1artibartfast16• 3 years ago

Yes, there are two decisions and I am talking about postnord.

I think postnord should have to return the plates in their possession to the factory, or allow Tesla to come get them wherever they are.

tokai6• 3 years ago

How? When they get in postnord's possession they can't go anywhere without a postal worker handling them. Rejecting them and sending them back would be almost the same work process as delivering them to tesla.

alibarber3• 3 years ago

It's not like the employees want to avoid actually doing work - rejecting and sending them back would still have the same effect no?

s1artibartfast16• 3 years ago

Return to sender seems like a simple solution, or not accepting the package in the first place.

RcouF1uZ4gsC• 3 years ago

This behavior is defacto violating free trade.

The US should ban the import of Volvos and other Swedish products until this is resolved.

LastTrain• 3 years ago

Maybe we should repeal the Chicken Tax first.

Racing0461• 3 years ago

+1. toyota hilux would make a comeback.

not2b• 3 years ago

Can you point to a specific provision of a specific trade agreement that this violates? Or explain why the US government should try to break a strike in a different country to bail out Musk?

Swedish labor unions are in all likelihood going to force Tesla to comply with normal Swedish labor practices, so Tesla can either go along with that or exit the market. It would be best for them to negotiate a settlement.

buildsjets• 3 years ago

The USA does not have a free trade agreement with Sweden, therefore the behavior is violating fuck all. Source: US Department of State.

https://www.state.gov/trade-agreements/

whats_a_quasar6• 3 years ago

I'm broadly in favor of organized labor, but it seems very odd to me for a labor action to stop the state-run postal service from delivering to one customer in particular. The postal workers aren't Tesla employees. In the U.S., at least, government workers can strike against their government employer, but de-facto denying government services to a specific company would be way out of bounds.

JumpCrisscross14• 3 years ago

it seems very odd to me for a labor action to stop the state-run postal service from delivering to one customer in particular

We're seeing a country, and increasingly the Nordic region, express outrage against Musk. It's manifesting in a Scandinavian way. But were the same conditions ripe in America, we'd see registration delays and special fees, safety investigations and public hearings.

whats_a_quasar6• 3 years ago

were the same conditions ripe in America, we'd see registration delays and special fees, safety investigations and public hearings.

I don't think we would. America is a big country, and certainly governments can be obstructionist, particularly state and local governments. But that tends to be through permitting and courts, which makes it more predictable and easier to appeal. USPS doing something like this is inconceivable - reliable delivery of government services is very high priority.

cma• 3 years ago

Under Taft-Hartley, secondary strikes are illegal in the US, regardless of if it is government. Same-industry is allowed but not cross industry.

gabeaweg2• 3 years ago

I know I will be crucified for this, but doesn't it seem like a dangerous precedent that a public utility can choose to stop working for certain companies/citizens? I understand striking in a binary way, working or not working, but being a public utility and deciding who you serve depending on whatever criteria, be it politics or whatever, seems like it could get ugly depending on the circumstances. Imagine if physicians or bus drivers did this.

wolframhempel• 3 years ago

I'm surprised that this is something that needs to be said with caution. Does anybody want to live in a world where individual government institutions selectively shun private citizens or companies? A world where - rather than in a court of law - you're punished by the electricity company deciding to cut your power?

therouwboat2• 3 years ago

Its not really government thats wants to block deliveries, more like government owned company is supporting workers and unions.

mrmanner7• 3 years ago

I think the notion of a “public utility” in the sense of “common carrier” may be more important in common law than in the Nordic tradition. If Postnord had been a government agency, results may have been different.

But, and this is important, a mail carrier is not allowed to discriminate freely under Swedish law either. Labour conflicts are an exception (in many areas of law) simply because almost no one wants the government to intervene. Collective bargaining with some conflict to get the Elons of the world to play along is simply working out better.

paulddraper7• 3 years ago

Chilling to say the least.

sbt• 3 years ago

Well it’s not like Postnord manages to deliver something even if they try.

morpheuskafka2• 3 years ago

It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be disciplined. This is not a labor rights issue, it is an issue of the government's sovereignty and ability to fulfill its duties.

I can't stand Tesla/Musk but I would not be happy if this happened in my country. If state workers could simply refuse to deliver your mail, renew your drivers license, or let you into the airport because of a political reasons, it would no better than a dictatorship where the government itself did those things to suppress political enemies. You would have no ability to carry on your normal life or business.

Could the poll workers refuse to accepts ballots for a candidate they have a "labor action" against?

JumpCrisscross14• 3 years ago

incompatible with the rule of law

This isn't a rule of law issue. If the courts issued a final ruling and the postal workers persisted, it would be.

aaomidi5• 3 years ago

Even then I’d say that courts being able to discipline workers for unionizing and blocking work against a huge company would be going against the intent of workers rights.

This isn’t workers saying we’re not going to deliver mail to, let’s say, Muslims. It’s saying that we’re not going to deliver mail for a company actively refusing to work within our labor market with our customs. This is entirely their right. A court that would rule otherwise is not a legitimate court in the eyes of the workers and people.

aaomidi5• 3 years ago

The government’s sovereignty does not come before the ability of the workers to unionize.

State workers are not discriminating against a person here. They’re discriminating against a huge company, one of the largest in the world.

And no comparing the actions of workers to a dictatorship is legitimately insane. A dictatorship has virtually no involvement of actual people and citizens. A workers union does.

You can not take away this right from workers without actually paving the path to a dictatorship or oligarchy.

hutzlibu3• 3 years ago

"It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be disciplined"

Maybe your concept of the law is not universal? It seems to be accepted behavior by swedish law, so it is within the rule of law.

Gud• 3 years ago

We don't know what. The ruling hasn't been made yet.

bitshiftfaced• 3 years ago

Corruption, Mafia, cartel, etc. control of legal processes seem to be accepted behavior (or were in the past) in some countries. Would you say that that's within the rule of law?

alibarber3• 3 years ago

...or let you into the airport because of a political reasons

Well actually, on the subject of airports and nordic labour movements:

https://yle.fi/a/74-20053729

"The walkout is a political protest, permitted under collective agreements, and is not directed at employers or the current contract in the sector."

I guess they have to pay for it though (in docked salary). But yes it is strange to me too.

s1artibartfast16• 3 years ago

I dont know how you could do a walkout for delivering to a single customer.

WJW• 3 years ago

You would have no ability to carry on your normal life or business.

This is indeed the point of a strike, yes. Which is allowed (under certain conditions) by Swedish law, particularly when it comes to labor conflicts. If Tesla wants to conduct business in Sweden, it'll have to cooperate with Swedish laborers. Those have more power than in the USA, but Tesla can always go elsewhere if it really cannot stomach paying its workers equivalent wages as other companies in Sweden.

tokai6• 3 years ago

Not in scandinavia. It's how the labor market is organized and its working great. I don't remember how it is in Sweden, but the relationship between employees and employers, how they can negotiate, and what kind of means they can subject the other part to, is enshrined in law, and so strikes that looks like this one in Sweden can easily be lawful.

emptysongglass2• 3 years ago

It is absolutely incompatible with the rule of law that workers can selectively fail to perform government services for someone they don't like, and not be disciplined. This is not a labor rights issue, it is an issue of the government's sovereignty and ability to fulfill its duties.

Whose law? Yours?

This is compatible with the rule of law in Nordic countries, including my own. PostNord is a private company.

EDIT: PostNord is public, not private and is jointly owned by Sweden and Denmark.

This is what labor fighting back looks like. United. That US labor rights were disemboweled by the Taft-Harley Act means everything to the Nordic countries who are using their rights as labor to organize and say now's enough.

The US will always remain a lopsided democracy so long as workers cannot stop the machine en masse.

I talk a lot of shit on the European model but this is something I am happy to join my fellow sisters and brothers in labor protesting. Musk's attacks on unions stops here.

s1artibartfast16• 3 years ago

Postnord is a 100% government owned service provider.

Do you think Judges should be able to boycott hearing cases they dont like?

Should police be able to boycott calls from people they oppose?

morpheuskafka2• 3 years ago

The law (including ECHR) protecting the private property in the mail that is being trespassed by the workers refusing to either deliver or give it back, and the law setting the rates and service standards for the post which was paid and not honored.

I think the workers at Tesla should unionize and get better treatment. I wouldn't want to work for one of Musk's companies. My concern is that if I lived in such a country, I'd be afraid that one day my city water would be disconnected or they'd refuse to renew my drivers license or passport, because I did something that those workers didn't like.

I'll admit to not researching the details of PostNord, but it is listed as a state-owned enterprise in Wikipedia and it fulfills Sweden's participation in the UPU. If it were purely private like FedEx, I wouldn't have the same argument--though in that case, my argument would be that the DMV needs to use another post if they know one is refusing to deliver.

mrmanner7• 3 years ago

I think the courts agree with you: There are two cases, one against the government agency registering vehicles and this one against Postnord, a company co-owned by the governments of Denmark and Sweden. Both cases are still pending, but:

In the former case, the court order an injunction(?) forcing the government agency to release plates through other means than post. In the latter, the company Postnord was not immediately forced to act.

IANAL, but the subtle difference between “the government” and “government owned company” seems relevant.

cycomanic2• 3 years ago

Firstly postnord is a (largely government owned) private company, so employees are not state employees. For state employees, employees with sovereignty duties (e.g. police...) typically there are restrictions around strike action.

Maybe if the postal services had not been privatised (and employees loosing a bunch of privileges) I'd be sympathetic. But you can't have your cake and eat it too.

On a more general note I find it fascinating how many here are arguing against regulations and individual freedoms when it comes to restricting corporations, but immediately shout for regulation when workers want to use their rights.

Jensson8• 3 years ago

On a more general note I find it fascinating how many here are arguing against regulations and individual freedoms when it comes to restricting corporations, but immediately shout for regulation when workers want to use their rights.

Infrastructure and communication with governments needs to be regulated and open to everyone, that is a basic freedom that has to be respected for a country to be free. If you have a road toll and refuse to service certain cars and thus efficiently putting them in a prison then I don't think that is a fair use of worker rights even if the road toll workers are in a private corporation.

paulddraper7• 3 years ago

If Postnord is unable or unwilling to fulfill its obligations, then their contract should be dropped, and another company should be used instead. Right?

Or is there only one mail delivery service? Or is something else the problem?

What am I missing?

eddtries2• 3 years ago

* Largely government owned means 60% ownership by the Swedish government and 40% by the Danish government.

K0nserv• 3 years ago

As others have mentioned PostNord is owned jointly with the Danish government so it's not quite a government services, well the postal delivery is, but the mechanism that achieves it, PostNord, is not.

I think you are also missing something else here. The government could break contracts with PostNord and have some other company take on the responsibility for the service, but in the Swedish political climate this would be a terrible idea and the government would haemorrhage voters if it did this. Not to mention the fact that whatever company it got to take over the services would have unionised workers, who would, undoubtedly, continue the action against Tesla.

pavlov• 3 years ago

Another lame stunt by Musk.

He should just play by the same rules as every other employer in Sweden for the past 80 years, but he can't help seeking the attention.

paulddraper7• 3 years ago

This is Tesla's M.O.

They don't do things conventionally in many localities, e.g. dealership stuff.

ajross4• 3 years ago

This has gotten out of hand, and frankly everyone is a bad guy. Tesla is being innapropriately inflexible here; union labor is the rule in Europe and they're just going to have to deal with that.

On the other side, we have a bunch of other unions and a government-mandated monopoly (!!) being deployed against them over a single center with 130 jobs. This level of economic disruption is way out of range of what is reasonable for a union action. It's supposed to be for the benefit of the workers in question, and to be honest I don't think anyone's even covering them?

The whole thing is a shitshow, and it's frankly embarrassing for Sweden from my perspective. I mean, if you were a C-suite executive looking to open a new office, and had to pick between Stockholm and Oslo or Helsinki, seems like an easy choice, no?

JumpCrisscross14• 3 years ago

It's supposed to be for the benefit of the workers in question, and to be honest I don't think anyone's even covering them?

The Nordics are a high-value EV market. It could be worth demonstrating resolve so the next group that hires these workers plays by the rules the local economy has evolved.

The Swedish unions, for their part, see this fight as exisetnial to their economic model [1]. With which I agree. If they bend for Tesla, they'll have to for Amazon.

[1] https://www.ft.com/content/99caf360-7c21-4251-9167-f08a8fa6c...

ajross4• 3 years ago

If they bend for Tesla, they'll have to for Amazon.

I'm just going to go out on a limb and declare without evidence but with great certainty that Amazon employs VASTLY more than 130 workers in Sweden. This doesn't pass the smell test, sorry.

tokai6• 3 years ago

Its not embarrassing for Sweden at all. Its how their labor market is organized. It's working exactly like it should.

wtfwhateven• 3 years ago

way out of range of what is reasonable for a union action.

It's not and it shouldn't be. If Tesla wasn't being "inflexible" then this wouldn't be happening. Their actions are unjustifiable and have continued for years. The only bad actor here is Tesla. Tesla just has to stop their abhorrent behaviour.

s1artibartfast16• 3 years ago

I dont think it is really that clear. Tesla has willing workers. IF Metall's position is that Tesla has to work with and through them.

therouwboat2• 3 years ago

It seems like Sweden doesnt want companies that pay low wages and dont want to follow rules.

ajross4• 3 years ago

Are these 130 jobs low wage positions, though? That's exactly the coverage I'd want to see about this issue, and... it's not there. Look, if the 130 workers were striking in order to unionize, that would be one thing. But that doesn't seem to be the impetus at all.

eddtries2• 3 years ago

Someone mentioned it'd be interesting to do a study of the Dunning-Kruger effect on the Bay Area/HN yesterday and after seeing the authority people talk about Swedish unions with almost every point being incorrect, I agree. Why do people feel the need to comment on things that they just don't know? I like Lesswrong and similar forums where people preface comments with how sure they are of what they're saying - HN could do with similar.

1vuio0pswjnm7• 3 years ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/28/business/tesla-license-pl...

District court rejects Tesla request, Postnord does not have to deliver plates

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