Why Does My 'Efficient' Dishwasher Take a Zillion Minutes for a Load?

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/high-efficiency-dishwasher-washing-machine-slow-hacks-water-a7d6b780

by mcenedella • 3 years ago

34 60 3 years ago

PeterStuer2• 3 years ago

At least in the EU it has come to the point where you have to figure out how to 'boost' the appliances into a 'normal' cycle, as the default is just the 'eco' setting designed to pass the test's 'A+++' rating criterium under ideal circumstances.

I am 100% in favour of not wasting energy and water, just not by deception and false savings where people use more water 'pre-rincing' their dishes in the sink than a regular dishwasher used to clean them, or having to manually add 2 extra soak and spin cycles to get rid of detergent residue in a washing machine because the default cycle was 'optimized' for specific artificial test loads not resembling any real world family clothes mix.

Many machines still have a button or hidden option to set them to 'normal' operation. For others you will have to resort to trickery or plain reinterpreting of what the different programs and settings actually mean to get the right result.

Scoundreller7• 3 years ago

I just use a fraction of the recommended laundry detergent. Helps prolong clothing and colours too. Spot spray any actual stains.

But I also fear automotive durability is being lost in the name of fuel economy by using excessively thin oils. Not just in the motor (easy to change yourself, just ignore the label where they can’t recommend thicker oils), but also CV joints, bearings, transmissions and differentials.

I put 87 (US octane system) instead of the “required” 91 because the fuel mileage loss doesn’t make up for the added premium. But of course the manufacturer will never say you can do that because they’ll lose their fuel economy record.

It might actually matter with a turbo, but I don’t have one.

stouset• 3 years ago

I put 87 (US octane system) instead of the “required” 91 because the fuel mileage loss doesn’t make up for the added premium.

Octane isn’t about gas mileage. It’s about compression. Lower octane gas is prone to auto-ignition at lower compression ratios. Running lower octane gas in an engine designed for higher risks catastrophic engine damage, as ignition can happen before the piston has reached peak compression.

bob10294• 3 years ago

I've been running "quad" rinse in my Maytag washing machine for the last 2 years because the "deep fill" selector isn't actually hooked up to anything.

The machine is designed by a psychopath. It will cycle the water solenoid valves at least 100 times per wash session. It is like these things are designed to not only function poorly but also destroy your plumbing over time. It feels intentional. No sane engineer would watch this thing operate in a lab and think "yes. I've done a good job today".

I've got a new machine on the way. No lid lock, EPA defeat switch, et. al. You cannot buy these at the normal box stores anymore. I had to argue with a boutique appliance salesman about my laundry preferences for an hour to get this sorted, despite the fact that I already knew precisely the machine I wanted.

sidewndr46• 3 years ago

how would a solenoid valve destroy your plumbing?

deng3• 3 years ago

Can't read TFA and archive is sending me into captcha hell.

BUT if this is about modern dishwasher taking 5h: yes, the last 2-3 hours are just drying the dishes in an energy efficient way. And it works perfectly fine for me and one cycle takes about half the electricity of my previous washer. Who cares how long a cycle takes, it usually runs over night anyway. This is the Eco program, and you can switch to an express program if you want a 2h cycle. If you have really dirty dishes (burnt stuff in a pot or whatever), you can enable extra hot water and even a high pressure zone where you can put the pot. It's a Siemens iQ300, BTW, but almost all dish washers I've seen now work this way. Is it really too much to ask people to skim the manual and figure out what these buttons do? Apparently so...

derbOac• 3 years ago

I actually prefer to just let the dishes air dry anyway because I've found they last longer.

I've wrestled a lot with the issue the article is mentioning the last few years. It's Goodhart's law applied to efficiency tests, where unrealistic standardized product tests get gamed in increasingly complex ways, and no one calls the tests on the unrecognized real-world problems being overlooked. Prerinseing, repeating cycles, mold problems, etc.

One of the most frustrating things for me is how everything has become more automatized. Laundry machines are often organized around preset clothing types, for example, rather than cycle settings, which makes it difficult to control your wash correctly.

PeterStuer2• 3 years ago

On my machine (Miele) the door automatically opens on a hinge for the last 20 minutes of a normal program to let the dishes dry. I have no idea what the eco program does. Afaict it just seems to pauze at random during the cycles, doubling the program time. I never measured the agregate energy use, i doubt much savings can be made on water use as that is extremely low to begin with.

MikeRichardson• 3 years ago

archive.is has some weird incompatibility with the 1.1.1.1 DNS resolver. Temporarily use some other one, and it will load fine.

orra4• 3 years ago

If your dishwasher isn't performing well on eco mode for typical loads, then you have a bad dishwasher. Good dishwashers exist. I'd recommend looking at impartial reviews, like Which?.

Spending an extra £100 on a better dishwasher, to wash at 50 °C, will pay itself back several times, over the lifetime of the dishwasher. It adds up. You're wasting a fortune by washing dishes at say 70 °C.

Also, pre rising dishes is an anti pattern, a bad habit which people have gotten into. These days the advice is specifically to not do it. Otherwise you're fooling the sensors, etc. Plus, energy efficient cycles are long, giving plenty of time for the dishes to soak and clean.

If dishes aren't coming out clean, and your dishwasher doesn't have terrible reviews, then buy a bottle of dishwasher cleaner for £3, and put that in an empty hot cycle. That'll refresh the dishwasher to as-new performance. Clean the filter too, obviously.

sgarland3• 3 years ago

pre-rinsing dishes is an anti-pattern

The previous owners of my house had a very expensive KitchenAid, which we had to replace shortly after moving in due to the stench. There was pink sludge EVERYWHERE, and no amount of disassembly and cleaning fully removed it.

Replaced with a Bosch (forget the model number, but one with the CrystalDry feature, which is awesome), which I like better anyway. I pre-rinse, because enzymes in detergent aren’t magic, and food eventually becomes a pink sludge.

Scoundreller7• 3 years ago

While modern dishwashers take longer, they’re a heck of a lot quieter (especially if you get a Bosch).

Interesting reading about the hacks in the article, I suggest everyone here reads it.

Dunno where the longer to boil pasta part comes from in the article.

What I learned is that the turbo/quick cycles use a lot more energy and water. I guess that’s what’s needed to get the same end-state of cleanliness.

emmet• 3 years ago

We had a top of the line Bosch in the "Luxury" apartment we rented last, and I can assure you this is not the case for all of their models. Couldn't run it overnight without keeping everyone awake for 4 hours.

chakintosh2• 3 years ago

I got a Bosch recently, and there is no way to know if it's working unless I put my ears to the door.

arethuza2• 3 years ago

Our relatively new AEG shines a red light on the floor when it is operating (and a slowly flashing red light if the door is ajar) - turns out this is a better UI than a mobile app!

bradknowles2• 3 years ago

We have a Bosch now. I will never ever again buy another Bosch. I don't care how highly they get rated by Consumer Reports.

The next dishwasher we buy must have a heated dry mode, and it won't be a Bosch. Can't tell you anything more than that at the moment.

ben_bai• 3 years ago

Mandatory xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2724/

and Tech Connections Videos: https://www.youtube.com/@TechnologyConnections/search?query=...

thibautg• 3 years ago

https://archive.is/q82v4

Am4TIfIsER0ppos4• 3 years ago

Government is making your life worse with its insane "environmental" policies. Just fucking turn on a few nuke plants!

God I need to buy a top-loader. I wonder if they even exist in europe anymore. Only comically small ones by the look of it. Front-loaders struggle to even wash a bath towel.

a commercial dishwasher [...] takes about 90 seconds to clean a load of dishes instead of hours

Imagine a world in which all machines were this good.

yummypaint2• 3 years ago

You probably wouldn't want a commercial dishwasher at home. You must first thoroughly rinse all food particles off all items (think human dishwasher in a resturant). Then it uses the hot water it used to sterize the previous load as wash water for the next. As soon as one load completes, it will immediately expect another, as they are designed for continuous heavy use. They are very loud, require a 240V or 3 phase connection, and release truly massive amounts of steam requiring a hood/extractor to not mess up a residential kitchen. For a family of 4 people washing everything by hand would probably be less work and cheaper.

orra4• 3 years ago

Precisely, commercial dishwashers don't clean dishes. They sterilise already clean plates.

JoeAltmaier• 3 years ago

There are smaller ones, used by dining halls etc in schools. They wash, rinse, sterilize.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos4• 3 years ago

Every socket in my house has 230V, if the government manages to not screw up generation which is a possibility in the future. I hate on europe for a lot but that is one thing that is right over here.

As for rinsing that is something that must be done anyway with an average consumer dishwasher. The food clogs the sprayer nozzles and eventually the pump too. Don't worry though because manufacturers conveniently sell you another cleaning product for that!

Your point about hand washing is bordering on true. Government is making automation so poor that labor is considered.

imtringued• 3 years ago

Just fucking turn on a few nuke plants!

Ten years and thirty billion dollars later...

Am4TIfIsER0ppos4• 3 years ago

"10 years later" should have been the year 2000!

orra4• 3 years ago

Well, if you buy 2-star reviewed appliances appliances they'll perform shit. But plenty of energy efficient appliances perform fantastically. For example, from AEG, Bosch, Haier, LG, Miele, Samsung, or Zamisso.

Front-loaders struggle to even wash a bath towel.

A farcical claim.

tonyedgecombe2• 3 years ago

Nothing but bad experiences with AEG and their sister company Zanussi. I won't buy from them again. I also avoid anything made by Samsung as they are regularly criticised on this forum.

sgarland3• 3 years ago

Just fucking turn on a few nuke plants!

Nuclear energy is famously forgiving of mistakes caused by rushing.

rightbyte• 3 years ago

Imagine a world in which all machines were this good.

There is the minor drawback of having to rinse the dishes manually first ...

wrp• 3 years ago

...Donna King experimented with the various settings of her washing machine, trying to get her clothes to stop coming out covered in detergent residue....King thinks the machine just doesn’t use enough water...

A decade ago in Korea, I had a Samsung top-loader that worked great. Had to replace it and could only get a front-loader. Not only is it slow, I have to run the rinse cycle at least twice to get the detergent out. I now often resort to hand-washing and use the machine just for the spin cycle.

svrtknst• 3 years ago

I'm willing to bet that a lot of the times, the issues are 1) overestimating how much laundry detergent they need 2) not putting some extra detergent in the dishwasher

grapescheesee• 3 years ago

Meanwhile commercial dishwashers take all of three minutes per cycle. I would recommend buying commercial versions of any appliance if you're able. Parts are replaceable, made to be serviced, not choked full of eco marketing, or incompetent regulations which add to more waste in the long run.

wil421• 3 years ago

Commercial dishwasher are more like sanitizers. In a restaurant the dishwasher is the guy scraping the food off. Home dishwashers run for a long time because they are basically liquifying the leftover food, milk, and grime.

bradknowles2• 3 years ago

I have done that job. I was the dishwasher. After I cleaned off the gunk on the dishes with the commercial power sprayer, I loaded the trays into the commercial steam dish sanitizing machine.

That's not what I want for a home dishwasher.

gumby• 3 years ago

You mean those things with a door on either size so the rack goes through from one side to the other? Those are high temperature sterilizers that take hand-washed dishes and blast them so you can put them on patrons' tables.

The guy at the end of the article clearly had one of those (it looks like he probably said this but the wsj reporter cherry picked the quote, as it quotes him saying he could only use it for glasses at parties, not for plates with food residue. Bet he didn't call it a dishwasher since he's a repair guy).

Why Does My 'Efficient' Dishwasher Take a Zillion Minutes for a Load?

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