Masterpiece was hanging above an elderly French woman's hot plate

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/forgotten-268-million-cimabue-painting-found-in-an-elderly-womans-home-heads-to-the-louvre-180983280/

by Brajeshwar • 3 years ago

121 101 3 years ago

smithsonianmag.com

gniv• 3 years ago

The article doesn't say how much the Louvre paid for it. Did they really pay the €24.2 million auction price?

Edit: The official PR from Louvre has a bit more info: "For this exceptional purchase, the Louvre is using part of the revenue generated by the Louvre Abu Dhabi brand license - the Société des Amis du Louvre contributing the final million euros that made the acquisition possible."

orwin2• 3 years ago

If the buyers were art investors (and didn't plan to expose it), an art piece that cannot leave a country and enter a free zone (were it will stay in storage until it is sold again) will loose a lot of its speculative value, all future transactions will be taxed.

ensignavenger• 3 years ago

It sounds like the painting was only prevented from leaving France for a limited time.

Tuna-Fish• 3 years ago

They matched the price.

The French antiques law doesn't allow expropriation of French art owners, only temporary export bans and right of first refusal for any purchase. So the only way it got sold for less than the auction price is if the owner separately negotiated a lower price for the Louvre, but that would be against their own interests, since they'd either get the 24M from the art dealers or from Louvre.

hnburnsy2• 3 years ago

They matched the price. > The French antiques law doesn't allow expropriation of French art owners, only temporary export bans and right of first refusal for any purchase. So the only way it got sold for less than the auction price is if the owner separately negotiated a lower price for the Louvre, but that would be against their own interests, since they'd either get the 24M from the art dealers or from Louvre.

hnburnsy2• 3 years ago

They matched the price. > The French antiques law doesn't allow expropriation of French art owners, only temporary export bans and right of first refusal for any purchase. So the only way it got sold for less than the auction price is if the owner separately negotiated a lower price for the Louvre, but that would be against their own interests, since they'd either get the 24M from the art dealers or from Louvre.

Do they pay the price including the substantial auction house fees?

trompetenaccoun• 3 years ago

Seems like a fair policy for all sides though I wonder how does that work in practice? This painting made waves of course but are they constantly monitoring auctions to see if anything of national interest turns up?

bigdict• 3 years ago

The woman who originally owned the painting passed away just two days after the sale, leaving her three heirs to inherit her estate.

Thanks grandma!

dmix2• 3 years ago

Four years ago, when she began clearing out her home ahead of a move, she intended to throw out the painting, unaware of its true value, per the Guardian’s Kim Willsher. Luckily, her family called in an expert to appraise items on the property. The unusual depiction of Christ caught the eye of the expert, who assumed it could be worth hundreds of thousands.

Thanks to the family wise choice to call an appraiser and the appraiser's good eye for art.

btw is it normal for families to call appraisers? Or was it likely grandma had lots of nice antique things. Or maybe was wealthy (mentioning a "hot plate" indicates probably not).

orwin2• 3 years ago

btw is it normal for families to call appraisers?

In France, yes. They aren't art specialists, but it helps with dividing the estate.

mguijarr• 3 years ago

btw is it normal for families to call appraisers?

Well, sorry to say but no, it is not "normal" in the sense every family does this - something only seen for rich people or those who have problems dividing wealth

5555624• 3 years ago

btw is it normal for families to call appraisers?

When my mother passed away, my sister contacted a firm to handle the estate sale. They had several people who appraised things. How qualified were they? It varied. The guys who appraised the jewelry and antique furniture were spot on; but, the one who looked at all the Asian stuff seemed clueless. (Since they were getting a percentage, you'd think they'd try to be accurate.)

OJFord• 3 years ago

btw is it normal for families to call appraisers? Or was it likely grandma had lots of nice antique things.

It read to me like they were (rightly!) concerned she was disposing of things she didn't want any more inappropriately, without recognising what she had - she couldn't remember where it came from. If they didn't know either, then fair enough and good call I think. Local auctioneer would be a pretty reasonable/cheap starting point (but decent chance of recognising when to consult a specialist) if there's no particular reason to think there's anything very valuable I would think.

amelius• 3 years ago

And thanks guy from 1280 who made it possible in the first place.

TacticalCoder7• 3 years ago

Thanks grandma!

Because it's grandma who found the art piece and not her grandkids and because grandma live in France [1], grandkids shall see approximately six millions EUR (divided by the number of grandkids) of the 20 millions EUR this would sell for.

Inheritance taxes above 1.8m in France are 45%. Grandma to kids: 55%. Kids to grandkids: another 55%.

I mean, three kids getting 2m each is nice but let's not kid ourselves here: it's the state that can thank grandma as over two generations they'll be taking 14 millions EUR out of 20 millions EUR.

And grandma is not free to do what she wants with the money: should she decide to give the money, the donation would be taxed at inheritance rate (45%: which I'm sure komrades find totally cromulent and probably even not enough).

(which shall greatly help a state-owned entity like the Louvre museum to acquire the masterpiece btw)

Uncle Sam (well, it's french cousin): "Thanks grandma!" indeed.

[1] I live in a country which has zero inheritance taxes and zero taxes when donating money and zero taxes on capital gains (if you held things like stocks/art pieces/collectible cars or whatever really besides real estate for more than six months). Income tax goes as high as 42% though but after you've paid your income tax, your money is yours and you basically do what the fuck you want with it.

yieldcrv• 3 years ago

Maybe she used a trust and circumvented all of this, who knows?

dfc• 3 years ago

What country are you from?

Loughla• 3 years ago

Super high income tax and extremely low wealth tax seems like a great recipe for some revolution.

anovikov2• 3 years ago

I also live in a country like this and it manages to have a budget surplus, incredible public safety and social peace in spite of all that :) Which makes me feel most European taxation systems are just an engine of depriving middle class from ever being able to compete with the rich, not at all socially oriented.

hilux2• 3 years ago

And is your low-tax country doing better or worse (for society as a whole, not just for you) than France?

atmosx3• 3 years ago

What happens in your country when you go the hospital and they figure out you have cancer. Does the state pay for the treatment or you go from millionaire to dead family weight overnight? :-)

Money is nice but passed a certain point, the real problems are rarely solved with more money.

addcommitpush3• 3 years ago

In France, the tax is not on the amount of restate but on the inherited income, ie each kid gets taxed on his share. So if there are n kids, the amount of tax paid is nT(K/n), not T(K). Since T is progressive (convex), nT(K/n) < T(K).

Given that the first 100k are not taxed and that there are three kids, only about 14 millions will be taxed at the 45% rate, not 20.

Note that we are talking about each kid making 6,67M€ (four centuries of minimum wage, three centuries of median wage).

If they earned their money through their labour instead of through their birth, they would actually be taxed more (IR + CSG + CRDS).

As for the grandkids, there are a bazillion ways to reduce the tax bill: life insurance is not inheritance-taxed, you can donate money to your kids before your death (about 300k€ per kid every 15 years before it’s taxed - if there are three kids, three grandkids per kid and everyone does a little tax planning you can give 9 grands kids * 300k€ * say give them money at 0, 15, 30, 45 and 60 yo that’s 13,5M€ originally from the grandma that won’t even count as inheritance, etc.).

mkoubaa2• 3 years ago

What in the first world problems is this comment, even?

gedy• 3 years ago

It’s fascinating what older people have in their home sometimes. When we bought our home, the elderly lady we bought it from left a carved wooden panel on the wall. It was pretty, but we didn’t give it much notice. When I looked more closely at it a few years later, I saw it had a really old Wells Fargo shipping label on it, and after doing more digging, found that this had been displayed at the 1893 Columbian Exposition in Chicago. The shipping label was to that event.

vasco2• 3 years ago

Does someone know how a painting made by an italian artist in Italy can be declared a French national treasure and blocked from export? I'm not knowledgeable in this area.

wahnfrieden• 3 years ago

The will of state power

Glant• 3 years ago

The law of finders keepers

lelandfe• 3 years ago

“‘Finders keepers, shut up’ has worked very well for us so far” https://youtube.com/watch?v=x73PkUvArJY

kergonath7• 3 years ago

It’s Europe. Borders and people moved around constantly, and nationalism was not a thing for most of the continent’s History. Italy as a country would not exist for ~600 years when it was painted.

I haven’t seen a complete study of where and how that painting moved since it was done, but there are plenty of possibilities that don’t involve anything dodgy.

FartyMcFarter• 3 years ago

Well, it's in France. Possession is 9 tenths of the law.

Ichthypresbyter2• 3 years ago

When this story first appeared, it was noted that the woman who owned the painting had lived in Compiègne. Compiègne was the site of a royal residence from 1374 until the Revolution, and the site of a Carmelite convent (which received significant royal support) from 1641 until 1792. The painting could well have belonged to the convent, been sold off locally when it was closed, and either stayed in the family of the original purchaser or made its way through various local antique shops. So there's a decent chance that much of the painting's history, including its last religious use, took place in France.

mytailorisrich• 3 years ago

I know nothing about this specific painting but the fact that it was painted by an Italian artist in Italy is a red herring.

As far as I understand the law allows any significant art piece in France to be deemed a National Treasure. Think of it more as an important asset for the country rather than something that was made in France or by a French person.

In French the definition is that it is important to the national "patrimoine", which is the same word used to refer to someone's assets/estate.

sombragris2• 3 years ago

Just a little nitpick on the French word. Since it's from Latin, there's also a Spanish cognate, patrimonio. The word has no exact English equivalent but as parent said, it could mean someone's assets/estate. I would like to add that sometimes it can also be translated as "heritage". This could serve to complete the idea of the concept behind it.

poulpy1232• 3 years ago

Because it was in France at the hands of a french national

atmosx3• 3 years ago

Seriously? The Louvre is literally made of Greek (two of the 3 most visited art pieces are Greek), Italian and Egyptian art.

That’s it. There is very little French artistry. The French masters came a bit later and have their own museum which I wish to visit one day.

Doesn’t matter _how_ it only matters that the French pay attention. Italy doesn’t need one painting, the entire country is stunning and financially speaking “suffering” from tourism. I mean it is a huge source of income, but they lost the “locals quality of life” balance with tourism long time ago.

COM9• 3 years ago

You're not totally wrong, buy there's a really nice Delacroix not far from the totally underwhelming Mona Lisa / Joconde. (Yes "later", but still a must see.)

And I'm not totally sure, but I would bet that a lot of early medieval Christian art is French? I mean the Carolingians / Merovingians must have left something no?

And if the Louvre doesn't have impressionist art I would be totally disappointed? You're probably talking about the tennis court museum (edit: Jeu de paume museum, not far from the Louvre), but still? I think the problem is that the Louvre is so big than you're gonna miss stuff.

vasco2• 3 years ago

Your comment was helpful thanks! I did say I wasn't knowledgeable in this area, sorry if it was a stupid question to you.

kergonath7• 3 years ago

The criterion are where the work is and how significant it is. It is about culture, not nationalism.

mkoubaa2• 3 years ago

Borders between neighboring countries change over the centuries and are virtually meaningless over long periods of time with how many people move between them

hprotagonist• 3 years ago

“italian” and “italy” are about 1100 years younger than the painting.

dmoy• 3 years ago

Well, 500 years at least.

The painting is from ~1280, and it's currently 2023, which is less than 800 years later, so Italy by definition can't have been founded 1100 years after the painting. (Can't have been... couldn't have been... can't wouldn't have been? What is the past-in-the-future perfect tense?)

snickerbockers• 3 years ago

Same way all the ancient Egyptian stuff ends up that way.

jameshart• 3 years ago

The 10- by 8-inch painting, now deemed a French “national treasure,” hung unnoticed for years above a hot plate in a 90-year-old French woman’s kitchen

How many years did this woman remain 90 years old? That's the real mystery in all this.

subpixel• 3 years ago

Reminds me of the Sopranos actor who was an Art History major and found a $10M old master that was mislabeled in a German auction house.

trbleclef• 3 years ago

Federico Castelluccio https://www.cbsnews.com/video/sopranos-star-uncovers-paintin...

spaceman_2020• 3 years ago

Never would have taken Furio to be an art history major in real life :)

rr8083• 3 years ago

What does the Louvre do with it? I actually like the fact that someone had it in their house. Now it'll likely be in a warehouse.

seanthemon• 3 years ago

Display it.. you know.. like museums do?

rr8083• 3 years ago

The biggest Museums only show a single digit percentage of their art.

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20150123-7-masterpieces-...

armadsen• 3 years ago

They’ve announced that it will be on display along with others of the artist’s works starting in 2025.

rex_lupi• 3 years ago

So they've finally found the "Fallen Madonna with the big boobies" by van Klomp?

DylanSp• 3 years ago

My favorite example of this is the Third Imperial Faberge egg. It was made in 1887, seized by the Soviets during the Russian Revolution, and apparently sold abroad. It ended up in a flea market in the US in 2004, when a scrap dealer bought it without knowing what it was. He wasn't able to sell it for the price he wanted, so he kept it in his kitchen as decoration for several years. In 2012, he googled around and found an article about the missing egg, realized he probably had it, contacted a jeweler and Faberge expert, who flew out and found the egg sitting next to some cupcakes on the guy's kitchen counter: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02855/egg_285....

This Telegraph article has more details: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/art-news/10706025/Th...

ginko• 3 years ago

There's an even more insane example:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/rare-roman-mosaic-...

throwaway743• 3 years ago

Kinda bullshit they didn't get anything in return and authorities just confiscated it. At a minimum, give them the inflation adjusted amount they paid for it.

spoonjim• 3 years ago

What makes this a “masterpiece”? It’s old, and historically valuable, but it doesn’t look that great to me.

Masterpiece was hanging above an elderly French woman's hot plate

Related Stories