Books Programmers Don't Really Read But Recommend

http://www.billthelizard.com/2008/12/books-programmers-dont-really-read.html

by ashishgandhi • 14 years ago

316 157 14 years ago

phzbOx• 14 years ago

I'm an avid reader but was disappointed with the dragon book. I felt like once finished, I still couldn't write a simple interpreter! I guess it's a good reference.. or maybe a second book, but that's definitely not the best book to get started and learn compilers.

I did actually read The C++ Programming Language when I was in high school.. at that time I thought it was a very important book. Now, with the insight, how dull it was and useless!

lightcatcher• 14 years ago

I think many people consider CLRS (Intro to Algorithms) to be far more daunting than it actually is. I have read 80% of it (wasn't interested by some parts, maybe will go back to them) and I have several friends who have done similar read-throughs. Doing all of the proofs is a bit much, but a lot of the exercises are quite good and I would hope that most programmers were familiar with the majority of algorithms described in CLRS. Essentially, I think many people are far too intimidated by CLRS. I actually found it to be quite readable, as textbooks go. Note that I did this before actually taking any algorithms class.

Perhaps the post should be rephrased to "However, unless you have at least a Masters degree in Computer Science (and in Algorithms specifically), I doubt you've HAD TO read more than a few selected chapters from Introduction to Algorithms."

tricolon• 14 years ago

CLRS is essential to any good undergrad CS programme.

thelastnode• 14 years ago

Why?

While I have worked through a decent amount of CLRS myself, I think there are much better ways to learn how to solve algorithmic problems. For example, programming competition books like Programming Challenges[1] forces students to solve real-world-ish problems according to performance constraints - a time constraint, either artificial (e.g., problem statement requires execution within 2 seconds) or actual (e.g., choosing an algorithm that is too slow means the sun will burn out before the algorithm terminates).

Books and contests of this nature teach algorithmic thinking, which is far more important than the actual algorithms themselves. It also provides a context for implementing these algorithms, which means the student gets to see the more practical aspects as well: testing it on corner cases, fighting with the chosen implementation language, relying on compiler optimization, etc.

If the goal of the undergraduate program is to develop practitioners of computer science, or even graduates headed for academia, algorithmic thinking is essential. I don't think CLRS is necessarily the best way to teach that, and it certainly isn't the only way.

[1] http://www.programming-challenges.com/pg.php?page=index

SamReidHughes• 14 years ago

Well, there are other data structures and algorithms books.

edwinnathaniel5• 14 years ago

While some schools do suggest the students to buy CLRS, how many actually use it religiously as opposed to the instructors going back to their own lecture notes?

At UBC, we use CLRS for 2 undergrad courses: 3rd and 4th year Algorithm courses. I'm not sure what they use in grad level. Probably still covering CLRS.

That book is very thick and I have my own doubt a 3-month long semester can cover a lot from 1000 pages.

msbarnett4• 14 years ago

The 2nd and 3rd year undergrad CS algorithms courses at the UofA relied pretty heavily on CLRS, at least when I went through the program.

That was years ago, though, and I've heard anecdotally that now that there aren't 4x as many applicants to the program as there are spaces available, it's been made less rigorous.

tumanian• 14 years ago

The C++ Programming Language and the ARM(Annotated Reference Manual) won me many interviews. After reading those I could claim that I know the language. Sadly, I could never find such concise reference for Python or Java (or Erlang, but there was no documentation anyway).

edwinnathaniel5• 14 years ago

The Java Programming Language, 4th Ed. (heard 5th in the making).

This is the equivalent to The C++ Programming Language. Written by Ken Arnold, James Gosling, etc.

zackattack3• 14 years ago

900+ pages is concise?

soiryx• 14 years ago

Python: http://www.amazon.com/Python-Essential-Reference-David-Beazl...

Java: http://www.amazon.com/Java-Language-Specification-The-Editio...

What do you mean you can't find them?

zackattack3• 14 years ago

688 pages is not concise.

cpeterso3• 14 years ago

At 1000+ pages, I don't think The C++ Programming Language is a concise book.

nn2• 14 years ago

I read programming pearls about halfway until I discovered that a several of the samples were using gets() and could be trivially exploited for buffer overflows.

Calling programs like that "pearls" just seemed too wrong to me to go on.

edwinnathaniel5• 14 years ago

As to my understanding, Programming Pearls focused lies between the range of elegant code and algorithms/problem solving as opposed to secured coding practice in the C programming language.

lwat4• 14 years ago

Still, someone like Knuth will argue that correctness should not be sacrificed for elegance.

sanxiyn2• 14 years ago

IIRC the book actually has a section where the author explains why he uses gets(), short variable names, etc.

mahmud• 14 years ago

I actively disrecommend Code Complete. I bought the first edition back when I uncritically acquired everything with a Jolt Award logo. It's a pile of tautologies and common sense. It tries to teach stuff that is best learned through experience.

K&R was my second C book, and I love it for its authenticity, but I learned more from Kelly & Pohl's "A Book on C".

The Mythical Man Month I read in anger after a project failed. It not only resonated with me, but cheered me up.

Programming Pearls can't be "read" in the usual way, it's something I flip through when facing particular problems, but generally I savor it (ended up selling my copy after my 2 year backpacking trip, back when I swore I'll never write software again .. oops!)

Effective Java (C++) are practitioner lore. Their teachings have been subsumed by the language community and you can see it in code bases.

My advice is to learn to use your favorite editor with a TAGS file, then go navigate through a large open source project, and extend it in some minor way. That's more profitable than enduring any book on "design".

I never cared for "Pragmatic" or "Test-driven" or "Agile" publications.

sanxiyn2• 14 years ago

> My advice is to learn to use your favorite editor with a TAGS file, then go navigate through a large open source project, and extend it in some minor way. That's more profitable than enduring any book on "design".

This is the truth.

On the other hand, I learned from experience that people do not take this advice when you give it. Maybe plunging into large codebase is daunting, I don't know. Now I give them http://www.aosabook.org/en/ and tell them to choose an interesting project and then read it.

anthonyb6• 14 years ago

That book looks excellent - perhaps if all large open source projects included something similar, they'd get more contributors? I suspect that jumping into code with no overview of it's structure is going to be slower than if you have a clear framework to hang things on, which might explain the reluctance.

Their follow up book also looks good: http://www.aosabook.org/en/makingsoftware.html

anthonyb6• 14 years ago

Code Complete is a great book, and I don't think there are any other books out which cover the nuts and bolts in such a thorough way.

I also recommend "Rapid Development", by the same author. It sounds like a fuzzy, Agilish cliche, but a more accurate title is probably "How not to fuck up your project." All of the usual bugbears are there - technical debt, creeping requirements, gold plating, etc.

msbarnett4• 14 years ago

> Code Complete is a great book, and I don't think there are any other books out which cover the nuts and bolts in such a thorough way.

Eh, I don't recommend Code Complete, either, though not for the same reasons as mahmud.

You say you don't know of a book "which cover the nuts and bolts in such a thorough way". I can name one that covers almost the same territory:

Kernighan and Pike's excellent The Practice of Programming.

You could certainly argue that it doesn't cover the same territory in such a "thorough" way, if by thorough we mean "needlessly bloated". The Practice of Programming manages to say, in 288 pages, everything useful that McConnell needs 960 pages to spit out.

The Practice of Programming is the last book I can think of that came out of the old tradition of software books that valued concision and clarity of communication above all else. It's short and precise in the way that "The C Programming Language" is short and precise compared to modern PL books. Code Complete is a product of modern software book marketing; it takes forever to say anything, so that it consumes maximum space on a bookstore shelf, and attempts to justify its price in weight rather than ideas.

kabdib2• 14 years ago

I thought that CC was good when it came out, but it's gotten pretty long in the tooth. There needs to be a modern version.

buff-a2• 14 years ago

Have to agree on Code Complete. The first edition was a load of waterfall bollocks and I couldn't believe anyone wrote code like that. It actively put me off a "proper" programming career. The second edition, apparently, reduced that shite, but by that point I wondered "if the author is just reproducing dogma, why bother?"

cpeterso3• 14 years ago

Code Complete was published in 1993, so I think it can be forgiven its emphasis on waterfall development. It back its advice by citing real studies of software project, though the projects were from the 1960/70s at big companies like IBM.

blacksmythe• 14 years ago

I am sure that for you it was a pile of tautologies and common sense, but I think most people graduating with an undergraduate degree would benefit from reading Code Complete as they start their career.

I have to admit I thought it worth the time to read. It is an easy read. There are certainly books on this list that provide >10x the value, but take >10x the effort to assimilate.

  >> It tries to teach stuff that is best learned through experience.

Experience is a harsh teacher.

ramblerman• 14 years ago

To quote the pragmatic programmer, "bullets are cheap".

An engineer building a bridge doesn't have an easy way to just try it out. Someone hacking together something at home, or an internal facing product at work can learn by experience.

anthonyb6• 14 years ago

"Experience keeps a dear school, but fools will learn in no other, and scarce in that" -- Benjamin Franklin

Negitivefrags• 14 years ago

If this were a book, it would probably go on the "Books Programmers Claim to Have Read" list.

tsotha• 14 years ago

Agreed on Code Complete. Never understood why people thought it was worth reading. Much better is Steve Maguire's Writing Solid Code.

powertower• 14 years ago

> It's a pile of tautologies and common sense.

I was about to say the same exact thing, but was too afraid to because of the backlash.

That book has little to no use. It's a book you would give to someone that's a -1 level programmer on a 1 to 10 level scale, to bring him up to a 1. Really, it is.

I've always wondered if its recommended because people were not reading it, or if there is a case of general incompetence (the type that would get you fired, or not hired) in the general programming pool.

rsheridan6• 14 years ago

I read it when I was about a 1 on a 1-10 scale, and it probably helped bring me up to a two - which is a worthwhile ROI on a book.

mustjoinsiiiite• 14 years ago

Thank you! I'm beginning to think all the Code Complete recommendations are a large scale troll-in-progress on the programming community. I found a copy years ago and opened it up to a random page right around the middle of the book. I was then greeted with a half-page or longer explanation of how the condition of a while loop is only evaluated once per iteration, rather than magically causing the loop to terminate the instant it becomes false. I was just flabbergasted. Again, this wasn't in chapter zero somewhere, but hundreds of pages into the book.

kragen• 14 years ago

Code Complete prepared me to learn that stuff through experience: http://lists.canonical.org/pipermail/kragen-tol/2007-March/0...

xarien2• 14 years ago

This is so true and I'm completely guilty of it. I have a signed copy of The C++ Programming Language and often find myself recommending it when in fact, I've only read bits and pieces myself.

protomyth• 14 years ago

My problem with that book is the italic, thin, proportional font all the code is in (I have he hard cover). It hurts my eyes and I keep missing punctuation.

xarien2• 14 years ago

I started nodding my head when I read your post. That must say something...

charlieok• 14 years ago

Funny that SICP isn't on either of the author's lists...

mturmon3• 14 years ago

SICP is also oft-recommended, and very hard to work your way all through. But even reading (and working through -- that's essential) selective parts is an excellent experience.

cruise023• 14 years ago

I'm the author of that post. SICP is definitely the book that people most often tell me I missed when they read this. I hadn't even cracked it open at the time I wrote the post, so I didn't feel qualified to comment on it. (I've started reading it since. I haven't finished it yet, but I'd still recommend it to anyone who wants to learn Scheme or functional programming.)

Shorel2• 14 years ago

I think that's a book that you can 'read' and you can really read it. By really read, I mean do the exercises.

It makes the book a totally different and more complete experience.

So, this can be a book people read, but not really read. If this makes sense...

cletus• 14 years ago

Ya know, I would put a lot of the books most programmers have read on the second list. How many have actually read Code Complete (HN is probably a bad sample)?

I totally agree about Design Patterns. That is perhaps the driest (I mistyped that as "direst"; Freudian slip?) technical book (or any book for that matter) I have ever tried (and failed) to read.

Thing is, technical books don't have to be that way. The early Michael Abrash books (eg [1]) are actually highly entertaining. Effective C++ and Java are eminently readable.

I lot of people recommend CLRS and I've certainly studied from parts of it but I found Skiena's The Algorithm Design Manual to be far more approachable and enjoyable. If your goal is to learn I suggest that. CLRS seems more aimed at people who want or need to know mathematical proofs or are bound for postgrad CS.

TAOCP and the Dragon book are classic examples of books that get recommended all the time (on SO, here and elsewhere) but I'm convinced only a handful have actually read them.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Zen-Assembly-Language-Knowledge-Progra...

mturmon3• 14 years ago

I work at a government lab and I see TAOCP all the time on managers' shelves, generally in quite pristine condition. Sure looks classy up there.

defrost• 14 years ago

I studied mathematics in the 80's, a lot of my peers read the library copies routinely, either systematically from cover to cover, for specific reference, or for fun (flip open at random, see what you get) - maths people love maths books and TAOCP is very much a maths book - since then I've rarely met anyone with am actual volume set that seems to have any idea of the contents.

The Dragon book I still own, a paperbound version that's as dog eared as a book can get and still hang together as it was the reference for three of us working on a few compilers of our own back in the day.

The C Book I no longer have despite having bought four to five copies :( That book's never been much of a boomerang.

Tangurena• 14 years ago

I worked at one of the national labs and the books I'd see on shelves were usually ones from when folks were still students. The pristine unread books were either bound copies of the person's dissertation, or books he authored.

6ren• 14 years ago

I read Design Patterns. The reason it was difficult for me was because they introduced many entities at once, and I couldn't keep track. My solution was to draw a diagram of the entities and their relationships as they were mentioned, and take some time to try to absorb them. While not a mathematical paper, it's closer to it than to regular prose, in that it needs to be studied rather than read.

(BTW: I didn't find it all that interesting conceptually, they're the solutions you'll come up with yourself, just collected and named and categorized. Reading how they solved specific problems was interesting - vicarious experience - though some seemed more whimsical than workmanlike.)

zackattack3• 14 years ago

Work got me Effective Java to go through, but I don't have enough basic Java knowledge to get through it (I know enough Java to be dangerous). I can program in other languages, though, especially in perl, python, JavaScript and PHP. What book should I read before Effective Java?

mceachen• 14 years ago

Working on a real problem that you want to solve is the best way to learn anything. Don't go through a book -- just bookmark the JDK and make sure you skim through at least String, List, Map, Set, and Iterator.

If you can, find on github some idiomatic code for whatever language you're trying to learn (and take it with a grain of salt -- Spring Framework, for example, has good code in it, but you'd never need to make your solution so complicated because your code doesn't need to be extensible by everyone and their little sister).

irahul3• 14 years ago

When I was in college, I used to program a lot in Java and read a lot of books on Java. I found most of the text lacking and boring. The only book which didn't seem to insult reader's intelligence was Core Java vol 1

http://www.amazon.com/Core-Volume-I-Fundamentals-Edition-Ser...

Read the first 6 chapters very carefully and you will have rock solid foundation. Then skim through event handling, exceptions, streams and generic programming.

jimbokun• 14 years ago

The O'Reilly Nutshell books are very good at teaching you just enough to get going in a new language if you have some kind of programming experience in another language.

prophetjohn• 14 years ago

Thinking in Java[1] is a nice, thorough book geared toward people with prior programming experience trying to learn Java. It's mainly geared at C++ programmers, but knowledge of C++ is by no means a prerequisite and probably only minimally enhances what you get out of the book. The book has been thoroughly vetted by the community, so it includes few errors.

The older, third edition is also free[2].

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Java-Edition-Bruce-Eckel/dp/0...

[2] http://www.mindview.net/Books/TIJ/

edanm2• 14 years ago

"How many have actually read Code Complete (HN is probably a bad sample)?"

Honestly, how many programmers have actually read any book about programming outside of University classes? I'm guessing not many.

On another note, Effective C++ is not only a great book, it is the book which single-handedly made me a much better programmer, and made me understand C++. This is after half a year of training/working in C++. It is my most highly recommended book for really grokking C++. My only regret is that there isn't a similar book for most of the languages I know.

alexchamberlain• 14 years ago

I have! But, I'm a Mathematician invading another world, so probably a bad example...

jonstjohn• 14 years ago

Honestly, I think there will be a fairly high number of people who regularly read programming books, especially among those who may not have done a CS degree at a university. Personally, I have read dozens of programming books cover-to-cover that are often mentioned on these lists.

zukhan• 14 years ago

Why wouldn't people read programming books outside of university classes? How do you improve your craft? Reading is an instrumental part in growing as a developer and as a human being.

Shorel2• 14 years ago

To me, for learning Lisp, nothing beats "COMMON LISP: An Interactive Approach" by Shapiro.

While doing the exercises of course (just browsing the pages is not enough).

In contrast, Practical Common Lisp teaches you very little, however it showcases the power of the language very well, and therefore it's easier to sell.

krzyk• 14 years ago

Well, I didn't find Design Patterns as "dry", it was quite entertaining for me. Maybe because I didn't know anything about design patterns when I read it. On the other hand I reread it about 2 years after the first read and I still found it quite interesting.

Also, I've read the whole Code Complete and it was also interesting and I considered it one of the best books for programmers.

As for CLRS - boring as *%&^%#, I just can't manage to get past the sorting chapter. AFAIR there are not exercise answers so one is left alone when doing them, which mostly disqualifies every such book for anyone who is studying it on it's own, not in a class room.

Skiena's book is far, far better written, but unfortunately some of the exercises are to thought for me so when I'm reading my exercises are from 2-3 chapters behind. Although it's good that there is a wiki with (not always correct) answers.

Haven't read TAOCP.

Maro3• 14 years ago

There's a book called "Programming Language Pragmatics", which is a very readable presentation of PL ideas, how to parse them and how to write compilers for them. I actually read 2/3 of it.

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Language-Pragmatics-Third-...

nickik• 14 years ago

This is one of the very few (tech) books I read cover to cover (plus the stuff chapters on disk). If you are intressted in everything from machine up to programming language this is the book for you.

achompas• 14 years ago

So happy to see Scott get a bit of recognition on HN. This was my graduate PL text last semester, and I enjoyed reading it before class every week.

As a clear, well-written, thorough text on PL, I can't recommend it more strongly.

yannickt• 14 years ago

Another algorithms book that is IMO more approchable and more practical than CLRS is "Algorithms in C++" by Sedgewick.

RyanMcGreal• 14 years ago

> How many have actually read Code Complete (HN is probably a bad sample)?

I read the second edition cover to cover, and it was worth all the time I spent on it.

jcromartie2• 14 years ago

I bought Code Complete on a recommendation, and I find that most of it is stuff I've already picked up after programming for about 10 years.

alttag• 14 years ago

I had the same experience (but after only about five years). I landed on Code Complete a couple years after devouring The Pragmatic Programmer (and requiring my developers to read it), and generally found some good ideas of varying quality buried on mountains of text. I think most of it is right, but after having some experience in the field, it seemed it was targeting all audiences at once, from the newbie to intermediate programmer but also to organizations, managers, and others related to code. It's hard to make a book that's to the point if the book lacks focus.

That said, I've still used it for my research ... although I can often find other sources that say things better, CC2 has made a good starting point for ideas on how to present ideas about code.

jerhewet• 14 years ago

[raises hand]

I've read it cover-to-cover, twice -- the original edition, and the 2nd edition. Brilliant stuff.

barefoot• 14 years ago

Likewise.

matwood• 14 years ago

How many have actually read Code Complete

Some books are references and some are read throughs. I read Code Complete while in college and thought it really helped my programming. Effective Java is another great book that I've read. The Pragmatic Programmer is another one that I've read that really is worth the time.

Many books are just good references though. Pick it up and read a chapter for example. I think the more experience a programmers gets the less they need to read right through a book. When looking at a book on a particular language I can usually skip the first half because I know the parts that are common across most languages. I only need to know what's different/cool/idiomatic in this particular language.

Algorithm books are another example that falls into mostly the reference category. I don't think I've read any entire algo book, but I have read many chapters from many different algo books that touched on what I needed to learn at the time.

GFischer• 14 years ago

The Dragon book is obligatory course material at several universities (at least here in Uruguay, and Argentina too), so I have a hard time believing only "a handful" have read it (ok, most might have only skimmed it, but that's in the order of hundreds of thousands of students right there).

Ironically, I didn't take the course that required it, and remain ignorant about compilers to this day.

anonymoushn• 14 years ago

CLRS is a great book, I have read it, and other people should read it too. The first time I tried to read it I couldn't do the necessary math, so it took a bit more than two times through to grasp it.

TAOCP I generally recommend as a reference because I can only speak to its usefulness when used as a reference.

Edit: By "Other people" I do not mean "Other people who are doing graduate work" or "Other people who are in a senior level algorithms course." Really anyone who plans to do a significant amount of programming should read CLRS, even if he or she is still in high school.

rpearl2• 14 years ago

I am an undergrad and have read most of CLRS and the dragon book.

And I will certainly read TAOCP once I have the money to reasonably justify spending it on the set.

I wouldn't really want to ever read a book on design patterns.

lwat4• 14 years ago

I bet you $50 you'll never finish reading even book 1 of TAOCP.

rpearl2• 14 years ago

I don't understand this comment. Why do you care?

pauljonas• 14 years ago

I have read volume 1 cover to cover, worked through the "easy" exercises in the 1st half of the book. But the MIX simulator excursions were frustrating for me, as it seemed to be an incomplete project, and based entirely on Knuth's imagination, and not a real, working platform (at least at the time I read it).

I do not own volume 2, but poked around a bit in the sections with random number algorithms, as they have always fascinated me, since the time I wrote my own crude ones, in Pascal, back in the 1980s ;(

papaf• 14 years ago

All the volumes are a good read - just skip the maths and assembly sections in the first book. The rest of the work is understandable/readable without them.

klochner• 14 years ago

The first list includes books that professionals read 2+years into their careers, the latter is a list of books that higher-level students read while doing an undergrad or masters degree.

I'm guessing people lie about the latter because:

    a) they're much drier, and take more discipline to read
    b) they indicate a more rigorous training.

mattdeboard• 14 years ago

I'm about a year into professional programming with no education, and decided a couple of months back to buy Intro to Algorithms. I've worked through about 3/4 of the chapter, including the exercises (with no answers :-\). It is actually not very dry at all, considering the material!

Revisor3• 14 years ago

As suggested elsewhere, read The Algorithm Design Manual, it's much more readable (even if not as rigorous, with math proofs and such).

revertts• 14 years ago

To me, a lot of this divide is between books I read cover to cover and books I consider references or pick up for very specific sections (like "Algorithms on Strings, Trees and Sequences").

CLRS, TAOCP, and Gang of Four are all books I haven't read in their entirety, but have been indispensable for certain topics. I still recommend them to people all the time, and feel perfectly justified doing so.

mturmon3• 14 years ago

Agreed. But, a lot of the recommendations are written not with the tone you mention, but the tone of, "yeah, I worked my way through the whole book."

In fact, very few do more than read selective chapters (which is OK).

kabdib2• 14 years ago

My data stuctures course used AOCP but we skipped the first section on MIX, and didn't use MIX at all. "Just ignore that junk," our prof said.

I have fond memories of the second half of the first volume. I've used the other two volumes as references. The fourth volume I bought, but haven't had time to read in any detail; I might never get to it.

Personally I liked Sedgewick's books on algorithms ("light and fluffy and readable") though I can't stand his coding style.

statictype• 14 years ago

I'm surprised that GEB isn't on the list of 'recommended but not read'

dkersten2• 14 years ago

My current list of most recommended books (and that I have read) are, in no particular order:

Seven Languages in Seven Weeks

The Elements of Computing Systems: Building a Modern Computer from First Principles

The Pragmatic Programmer

Programming Challenges

Statistics: A Gentle Introduction (not exactly a programming book, but statistics is good for everyone to know and this is book is easy to read and good at explaining the concepts)

I may also recommend SICP, CTM, The Art of Multiprocessor Programming, The Joy of Clojure, the OReilly book on Intel Threading Building Blocks, Reversing: Secrets of Reverse Engineering, Test Driven Development for Embedded C and others in certain situations but the above list is a general list I would recommend regardless of the persons proficiency level or programming interests.

Homunculiheaded• 14 years ago

I've read a good chunk of both the Dragon Book and CLRS. I can't even understand why someone would recommend the dragon book as a 'must read', if I was going to write a compiler again (outside of class) I would definitely search for a good alternative. It's good on theory, but I've never found it particularly enlightening. If you're not actually writing a compiler I can't think of any reason to read it.

The CLRS on the other hand I really recommend anyone interested in CS and programming purchase a copy of. It's not a book you read cover to cover, but get the first 1/3 well understood, and then when you have some downtime pick it up, scan the chapters, pick one the piques your interest and either learn a new algorithm or refresh on something you're getting fuzzy on.

To be fair I haven't spent any serious time with other recommended algorithms books, which I should. But every few months I find my self reading the CLRS and enjoying it.

gnuvince• 14 years ago

Dragon book is something a compiler writer should read, but after he's gone through a compiler construction book first (I like Wirth's book; short and to the point). Definitely not an intro to compilation, it would scare me away.

bad_user3• 14 years ago

The Dragon book is not necessarily for people wanting to write compilers. That's an easy task for simple languages that gets even simpler by the usage of modern tools. Any developer that understands regular expressions and remembers some material from their Theory of Computation classes should have no problem building compilers.

The Dragon Book is however for people wanting to build parser combinators.

4ad• 14 years ago

I mistakenly upvoted you instead of downvoting you.

You can't parse context-free or context-sensitive languages with regular expressions. You probably mean that there are lexer generators that generate a lexer based on a regular expression specification, but you still need to provide a grammar to the parser generator if you don't write a parser by hand.

To be able to produce a grammar specification for the parser generator you need to understand formal grammars. To be able to produce an useful specification you really need to understand the general parsing algorithms and how the specific parser generator works.

All of this is vastly more involved than just understanding regular expressions. And this is just parsing, arguably the easiest part, not generating code or interpreting or all the other steps compilers might do.

Yacc is at least 33 years old, newer tools are better in some ways, for example Bison can generate a GLR parser, but they are just as easy (or hard) to use and require the same knowledge.

> The Dragon Book is however for people wanting to build parser combinators.

You probably meant parser generator, parser combinator is a different thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parser_combinator

pm902• 14 years ago

Well, in my compilers course, we used the Dragon Book and had programming assignments in Lex and Yacc/Bison (which the latest edition does cover). TBH, I found those assignments quite fun to solve. Of course, that isn't writing a compiler from absolutely nothing, but it did make us more confident of the stuff we were learning.

timr• 14 years ago

I pretty much assume that anyone who claims to have read Introduction to Algorithms or TAOCP is using the claim colloquially. I've read parts (large parts, in the case of Introdcution to Algorithms), but neither is a book that I want to read cover-to-cover. They're best used as reference books.

That said, there's definitely a huge number of people who claim to have read Design Patterns, but actually have only read about Singletons and Factories in a Java book. It's a shame, because Design Patterns is one of the most formative books I've read as a programmer. Everyone should read it -- observing the way that patterns are (mis-)used in Java is a poor substitute for wrapping your head around the insights in GoF.

grout• 14 years ago

Mythical Man Month and Silver Bullet essay ought to be mandatory. K&R as well, and Stroustrup (both C++PL and Design and Evolution of C++).

Programmers don't stand on each others' shoulders, but each others' feet.

cruise023• 14 years ago

Anyone who's working in industry (particularly if you're in any danger of being promoted to project lead) should read Brooks. The others are more language-dependent, but the lessons in MMM and NSB are applicable to everyone in software industry or any kind of project management.

willvarfar• 14 years ago

Tangentially, I recently made a list of books I think every programmer would enjoy reading: http://williamedwardscoder.tumblr.com/post/19794076450/a-few...

Aside, in every programming job I've been in, there's been other programmers keen to lend me Terry Pratchett books.

LVB• 14 years ago

I'd be tempted to add Numerical Recipes in C to the second list. I've often referred to it for various algorithmic problems thinking that it will be helpful and practical (examples in C!), but I'm usually disappointed. Most of it is targeted at very technical, math heavy problems. But hey, should my job require use of Toeplitz Matrices, NR is just an arm's length away!

This is NOT at all a knock on the book, since the title makes quite clear what it's about. But for whatever reason this one seems to end up on various "good to have on your shelf" lists when it probably isn't.

Maro3• 14 years ago

I think Numerical Recipes is more of a reference.

Eg. my professor owned NRC, and he did use it, especially the CD, to take algorithms as a plug-and-play starting point when doing some numerical analysis. Of course, you can also get similar algorithms off the web, but some professors are old-school like that.

pm902• 14 years ago

that book contains many errors and should not be relied upon http://www.cs.umd.edu/~oleary/c660/survival.html (look under dubious software)

capkutay• 14 years ago

Anytime I'm a little unclear or need a refresher on a sorting algo or how a data structure is implemented, I've found CLRS to be an extremely useful resource. It has been a life saver in my algorithms class (undergrad)...I think it works best as a supplement to lectures and exercises you would encounter in any data structs/algo class. It's especially useful for exam practice. I would guess that the exercises would also be really helpful practice for job interviews..But its not the kind of book I'd sit and read cover to cover.

gregjor• 14 years ago

Surprised Tufte's books aren't on the second list. I see programmers referring to Tufte but I doubt many have read his books. I recommend them.

I nominate Stepanov's Elements of Programming to the second list. Beautiful, dense, and a perpetual shelf ornament. Stepanov's papers, especially the one that launched the STL, Fundamentals of Generic Programming (with James Dehnert) is a masterpiece.

I have some favorites that show my age:

Software Tools by Kernighan and Plauger. Can be thought of as the poor-man's Dragon book.

The Practice Of Programming by Kernighan and Pike. As if the UNIX way needed any defending after almost 40 years.

Reliable Software Through Composite Design and Composite/Structured Design by Glenford Myers. You have to get past the ancient languages and flowcharts. These books describe modularity and module strength and coupling and are full of good ideas that still apply.

Database In Depth by C.J. Date, for programmers who haven't read Date's textbook on databases and probably don't need to. I do wish the NoSQL weenies would read Date's Introduction To Database Systems for some history and humility. Database technology has been there, done that, moved on.

jcromartie2• 14 years ago

I have The Visual Display of Quantitative Information, and it's an inspiring read. Which other books would you recommend for developers?

Jach• 14 years ago

I second The Practice of Programming. I was also forced to read Pragmatic Programmer for a class in school, I was happy to find that this review sums up my thoughts perfectly about that: http://www.amazon.com/review/R3KBSGSQDBND0N/ref=cm_cr_pr_per...

Another commenter mentioned SICP, I'd add Let Over Lambda and On Lisp which while I haven't read cover to cover I've enjoyed every section I've read so far...

In the end I don't really agree with the author's conclusions that we shouldn't recommend books we haven't read at all. Passing on recommendations of others is defensible--after all, if someone asks for a recommendation they usually want one, not a response of "I don't know" or "Go do your own research!"

gchpaco• 14 years ago

Tufte's books are actually very readable and approachable, unlike say TAOCP (which is very well written but so unbelievably dense…). I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to actually read them.

cjdrake• 14 years ago

Some of the people responding to this thread might consider that they are proving "Bill the Lizard" correct :).

I laughed when I read the article because I have checked out every one of the books he says programmers claim to have read (TAOCP, etc) from my company's internal library, and though I skimmed interesting parts (Go4, especially), I hardly read them.

irahul3• 14 years ago

Among the books "programmers have read", I have read K&R, Programming Pearls and bits and pieces of Effective Java and C++. I thoroughly enjoyed these books.

The other books on the "have read" list are on my "don't bother reading" list. Code Complete, Pragmatic Programmer, Mythical Man Month et al aren't my kind of books. As far as design patterns go, I believe if you code in Python/Ruby/Perl etc, books covering them in Java/C++ are needlessly verbose and boring. I recommend Alex Martelli's talks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vJJlVBVTFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Sbzmz1Nxvo

And this book which covers design patterns using Ruby.

http://www.amazon.com/Design-Patterns-Ruby-Russ-Olsen/dp/032...

Both approaches actually show you practical examples of design patterns in the standard library or real world problems, and shuns patterns which aren't applicable to the language or are too trivial. These talks aren't the end-all, but they will give you a good overall knowledge, and will make further exploration easy.

And from the "haven't read" list, CLRS is a good book and isn't as dense as it is generally taken to be. It does have sections on proofs, but you can skip it and jump directly to the data structure/algorithm. The pseudo code used in the book is extremely clear, and will convert to simple python in most of the cases. Use it as a reference, or read first few hundred pages. If the book isn't for you, you will know it after you have read the first 100 pages.

Another book I recommend is Sedgewick's book on Algorithms. I have read the C version. It mostly covers basic data structures and some accompanying algorithms. The code is succinct(sometimes needlessly so) and more importantly, it works. It doesn't sit well with everyone, but I liked it - it helps me see the whole picture without bombarding me with a lot of code.

Skiena is another obvious favorite.

Dragon book is decent, but you need guidance and discipline to make anything out of it. Consult your peers or teachers while using the book, or use another book.

I haven't read TAOCP and it's low on my list for now. I have read bits and pieces and I didn't find it as fascinating as I had hoped. It's dense and extensive, and can be used as reference.

"Effective C++" will be a better alternative to "The C++ programming language". But I must say, when I first read "The C++ programming language", I found it fascinating - lengthy, but fascinating. That would be mainly because I was beginning programming when I first read it.

cpeterso3• 14 years ago

Christopher Alexander's A Pattern Language: Towns, Buildings, Construction is a candidate. It is cited as the inspiration of the Design Patterns book. But it is actually a very good (though long-winded) book.

andyjohnson02• 14 years ago

His book A Timeless Way of Building is also good. Nothing thats really applicable to software though, but very insightful.

lhnz• 14 years ago

I have been reading a Timeless Way of Building. I am enjoying it -- is it worth reading the next book?

nwmcsween• 14 years ago

I've read quite a few of these, the problem with most of the ones listed is simple - they are technical or seemingly so simple (K&R) that reading them all the way through is a test of attention.

BonoboBoner• 14 years ago

Despite the author mentioning it, I could not get through Effective Java. It was well written and informative, but I got the feeling that it mostly taught me about deficiencies of JVM or the language design.

grey• 14 years ago

I've always found that knowing the deficiencies of a language is the best way to know the language. Anything that works well should be pretty intuitive and comfortable, but knowing exactly where the trouble spots of a language are let you be aware when you approach them, and know how to handle them.

alephnil• 14 years ago

I have read none of the books on the first list, but 4 of 5 on the second, is it something wrong with me?

To be more serious. All the books on the second list comes from people that were signinficant contributors to the field the book is about. That does not automatically make them good writers. All of the books on the second list is on the dryer end of the scale. I would recommend Appel's compiler book instead of the Dragon Book for example, even if it is less comprehensive. The Dragon book is written in an extremly confusing way (some oldtime compiler people have even described it as confused, esp in first edition).

leon_• 14 years ago

Huh, seems I'm a strange guy. From the "everybody has read" list I just read 2 books (pragmatic programmer and the 2nd edition) but from the list "everybody recommends but no one actually reads" I only haven't read introduction to algorithms.

stephan83• 14 years ago

I read most from the second list, but only two from the first... hipster coder.

calloc• 14 years ago

I can honestly say that I have not read any single one of those books. My first C++ book was C++ for dummies, after that everything I learned was from online tutorials, from actually doing it, and then by the time I reached college my knowledge was already above what the instructors were teaching in class.

I have quite a few programming books, mostly cookbooks though, that show little examples/snippets and or O'Reilly reference books that I used to purchase when starting a new language to get an idea for the syntax. The best book that I have ever bought and read was "Advanced UNIX Programming" by Marc J. Rochkind. It helped me get a much firmer grasp on Unix programming and along with it C which I was lacking at the time.

I've got a copy of the Dragon book sitting on my desk, it is waiting to be read, waiting to be devoured and played with, but so far I just haven't had the time.

One book I would like to read and wrap my head around is the Gang of Four book, it seems like it is important to know the various different design patterns, but so far I don't feel like I have missed out and can recognise good design practices based solely on how they feel while I am writing them.

martininmelb• 14 years ago

This story about Steve Jobs is probably relevant:

I was sitting in Steve's office when Lynn Takahashi, Steve's assistant, announced Knuth's arrival. Steve bounced out of his chair, bounded over to the door and extended a welcoming hand.

"It's a pleasure to meet you, Professor Knuth," Steve said. "I've read all of your books."

"You're full of shit," Knuth responded.

(http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s...)

dubya2• 14 years ago

I sort of wish this were true, though it doesn't sound like something Knuth would say, but apparently it's a myth: http://www.catonmat.net/blog/don-knuth-steve-jobs/

andyjohnson02• 14 years ago

From the article:

The problem with Design Patterns is that much of the information in the book (but not enough of it) is accessible elsewhere.

Maybe now, but I don't think this was true when the GoF book was published in 1995. My recollection is that there weren't a lot of books on software architecture (code- or system-level) back then because it wasn't so much of an issue. Most of us were writing monolithic C code or trying to get reuse of C++ libraries. The whole "architecture astronaut" thing hadn't got started.

That is was so ahead of its time is what makes it an important book.

cruise023• 14 years ago

You're absolutely right. Maybe that should have been "The problem with design patterns..." That is, it's not a problem with the book itself at all, but a problem with the message in the book being disseminated and often watered down.

oskarth• 14 years ago

> I often hear TAOCP described as the series of programming books "that every programmer should read." I think this is simply untrue. Before I'm burned at the stake for blasphemy, allow me to explain.

Really? I find that articles, blog posts and comments like to point out that this is something people actually say. I think that is untrue. It feels like one of the standard pseudo-oppositions that people take in order to write a piece - as if it was controversial - even if it isn't.

Obviously it's placed on greatest CS books list, or something that is valuable to have as a reference, but that's not the same thing as it being recommended reading for programmers.

officemonkey• 14 years ago

I can't believe "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" isn't on that list anywhere.

tripa• 14 years ago

See there: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3754747

signa11• 14 years ago

no recommendation for 'c interfaces and implementation', surprised...

npsimons• 14 years ago

Introduction to Algorithms (CLRS) This book may have the most misleading title of any programming book ever published. It's widely used at many universities, usually in graduate level algorithms courses. As a result, any programmer who has taken an algorithms course at university probably owns a copy of CLRS. However, unless you have at least a Masters degree in Computer Science (and in Algorithms specifically), I doubt you've read more than a few selected chapters from Introduction to Algorithms.

Really? Because I still have mine from undergrad, and when I was using it to prep for a Google on-site, I was surprised that I had forgotten how far into it we had gone (there are dog ears back to chapter 36). Of course, that class was over ten years ago, and I (unfortunately) don't get to use it much these days, being that I mostly deal with RF and E&M.

raffi• 14 years ago

Don't forget to add Goedel, Escher, Bach to the list of books most recommend, claim to have read, but haven't.

noarchy• 14 years ago

My first programming book was K.N. King's "C Programming, a Modern Approach" That remains one of the few programming-related books I own that has endured some wear.

I actually have read the GoF book, but I'm not sure that I'd recommend it to anyone.

pbiggar• 14 years ago

I try as hard as I can to turn even aspiring compiler writers away from the Dragon Book. You don't need a the theoretic underpinnings of 5 types of parsing to write a compiler, and I doubt anyone could use the Dragon Book to actually write a compiler.

I give an emphatic thumbs up to "Engineering a Compiler" (Cooper/Torczon) and also to the Appel books. They are fantastic, readable and digestable, and actually help get a compiler written.

sixtypoundhound• 14 years ago

At the risk getting flamed to a crisp for even suggesting the language or the title, I'd recommend PHP for Dummies and the companion book, everyday projects in PHP, as a starting point for a completely new web developer.

It's highly digestible, covers many basic concepts (HTML, loops, control flow, variables, sessions, databases, oop), and has a number of good projects to walk through. While I've moved on to significantly more advanced topics (Python, functional programming), it took me a long way and laid a pretty solid foundation for the future. They actually went relatively deep in the details of how a website works.

BTW - I'd avoid ASP.Net for dummies. Relatively little code contained in that one...

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