Tech sector Salaries have fallen up to 15 per cent as fired talent floods market

https://www.afr.com/technology/tech-workers-take-20-000-plus-pay-cuts-as-fired-talent-floods-market-20230824-p5dz4o

by pg_1234 • 3 years ago

120 119 3 years ago

photonbeam2• 3 years ago

Note: in australia

I think a similar effect is seen in the US. Perusing the (notably fewer) recruiter emails I’ve gotten lately, they’re almost all below my current pay. Contrasted with a year ago, probably 30-40% of cold recruiter outreach were for higher paying gigs than my current job.

I’m also seeing developers with killer resumes complaining in community slack channels about not even getting called back for follow-up interviews. These are people that I would’ve cleaned up in referral fees back when the market was hot. Times have definitely changed.

It’s clear that the tech industry and engineering pay flourished under low interest rates and free flowing VC money. Those days are clearly behind us, at least for now.

RachelF• 3 years ago

Australia also relies on migration to keep wages down. This was paused during Covid, so there is more supply of people now.

automatistauto• 3 years ago

A lot of work can be done by no-code and low-code tools so there is less need for software engineers in general. Linus at some point predicted that most of the web developer jobs would be going away because AI can do a lot of it. I think this trend will continue and the AI tools will continue moving down the stack until LLMs can be applied in basically every coding context with very little software engineering training.

People were saying AI tools will create more jobs but it's pretty clear that this time is different and what used to require 2 engineers can now be accomplished by 1 engineer + AI copilots in the relevant domains. I think this trend will continue and the expected outcome is going to be lower demand and lower salaries for software engineers in basically all domains except maybe for very low level work like firmware, kernel drivers, and compilers.

colordrops• 3 years ago

Also in mice

waveBidder2• 3 years ago

there has been an uptick of Australian job market news on hn recently

dcow• 3 years ago

(meta) I’m getting tired of seeing paywalled content on HN.

I wonder if we could tag links as such and have an option to hide paywalled links. Or just outright ban them.

arkadiyt• 3 years ago

Just disable javascript and you can bypass 90% of paywalls, including this one

kalleboo• 3 years ago

Safari Reader mode is also an easy way to bypass them (right-click on the address bar, site settings, use reader mode when available, refresh page) that also worked on this site

grecy• 3 years ago

Maybe HN could automatically link to the Internet Archive version of the story once someone posts it as a comment like often happens...

pcthrowaway• 3 years ago

archive.today (archive.ph and archive.is) is not The Internet Archive. It's a separate archival service which seems to be optimized to bypass paywalls (though there's very little information about the motivations for running it, where the funding is coming from, the country of origin, or techniques they're using to bypass said paywalls).

I believe it's discouraged (maybe even against HN policies) to make a submission with such a link, because it makes it impossible to tell what the original source of the article is without clicking it.

gexla• 3 years ago

I only read HN comments on more than 90% of posts. Though I do always read the article if I'm commenting on content which is in the article (as opposed to content within a comment.) This last point brings up a good angle. If you're against breaking paywalls, and you don't have access to the content, then maybe you don't add a valuable comment with a unique perspective.

shmoogy• 3 years ago

Are you against Userscripts to "fix" this? https://github.com/MostlyEmre/hn-anti-paywall I have this setup on my iPhone and iPad, and it works fine to see paywalls and get links to archive so I can view them.

pdntspa2• 3 years ago

archive.is my dude

kirrent• 3 years ago

I understand your frustration but complaining about paywalls is not only off-topic and repetitive it's also explicitly called out as something we should try and avoid when commenting on HN - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989

glimshe• 3 years ago

It's off-topic based on current rules, but if people completely stop complaining about it, the rules will never change. And maybe they should. See this is a form of civil disobedience!

karaterobot2• 3 years ago

I assume that a paywalled article without an archive link in the thread is going to be a discussion in which almost nobody has actually read the thing they're talking about.

slavetologic2• 3 years ago

Most tech talent isn't worth anything. A few are worth an insane amount. Companies can't tell which are which until they're in the door. The laid off workers are in the mediocre and lower bucket. This is a viewpoint I've been told by HR at multiple top quant funds

kstrauser3• 3 years ago

LOL, just no. SOP for poorly run companies is to lay off the most expensive employees, regardless of how much value they bring to the table. That principal engineer making $250K? “Why are we paying him twice as much as 2 juniors?”

I’ve seen that happen way more often than companies laying off actual lower-value employees.

slavetologic2• 3 years ago

250k is entry level for the type of firm I'm talking about

Supermancho• 3 years ago

SOP for poorly run companies is to lay off the most expensive employees

This is assuming companies are being "poorly run" as opposed to being pushed out of market by monopolistic (or duo, etc) practices and economies of scale. The largest companies have been acting predatory (like 90s MSFT) for some time now.

In tech, I have seen a reliable pattern. Most of the contractors go first, then the highly paid middle management, then the highly compensated tech talent.

mullingitover• 3 years ago

The laid off workers are in the mediocre and lower bucket.

Disagree. I've seen some extremely talented people RIF'd. When it comes down to dollars and cents, the company is keeping the people who it thinks can still get the basics done and aren't in the upper cost brackets. Often the most talented folks, the ones the company paid an arm and a leg to recruit and retain, are the first to go.

ericjmorey• 3 years ago

Top quant funds have always said elitist things.

jacknews• 3 years ago

But quant funds are really a winner-takes-all situation, so it's a bit like saying 'The top tennis players are worth millions, everyone else, not so much'.

In most other businesses, the reward for being 0.1% better is far less pronounced, maybe even just 0.1%.

pdntspa2• 3 years ago

Of course they are going to say that. These are folks that will literally say anything if it means they get to keep more money. And what better way to keep money than to shit on tech workers edging in on their fat salaries?

vhiremath4• 3 years ago

https://archive.ph/lTQp2

datavirtue3• 3 years ago

Our hourly rate keeps going up. Note: in Ohio

jononomo• 3 years ago

What is your hourly rate? I currently bill at $58/hour.

itake• 3 years ago

Not OP, but for GA clients, I bill at $130/hr.

teaearlgraycold• 3 years ago

$150/hr as a bay area software engineer

jitl• 3 years ago

Low! Double your price!

epiccoleman3• 3 years ago

Bill more! That's too low imo. If you're competent you should be able to bill at least double that. More if you're more than competent.

Consider that a full time employee at 100k/year probably costs their company at least 150k yearly (and probably closer to 200) after insurance and benefits.

58/hr for 2000 yearly hours comes out to less than 120k and that company isn't paying any benefits or taking on any of the risk of an FTE. You should set your rates accordingly.

datavirtue3• 3 years ago

$150

monkeycantype• 3 years ago

The headline is part of the story. The other part of the story is "cooled as migration returned and a visa backlog cleared".

If you spend time talking to tech workers on visas in Australia, you'll find a common story, most will be working for a large contracting company, on a contract signed in their home country. Regardless of how Australian law should apply, this leaves many workers feeling vulnerable in their negotiations with their employers.

this is absolutely used as a lever to drive down tech wages in Australia, and it takes very nuanced communication skills to point out how damaging it is to our society to bring people into work but denying them access to full democratic rights and standing to negotiate their working conditions.

ProAm3• 3 years ago

Job hopping doesn't work out long term

mvncleaninst5• 3 years ago

What does this have to do with job hopping?

ProAm3• 3 years ago

A lot of these companies over hired the past 3 years in a mini arms/labor race. People were hopping jobs and getting 25%+ increases in comp. No one could hire fast enough or enough people. But now that the economy is cooling, there isnt any free money, and some of the labor hired isn't doing work to the level they are being paid at, companies are looking for ways to trim fat. This is an easy way to do it. Everyone that moved, or that the company feels is being lazy, or not contributing to the level they want will be the first to go. Im not arguing the validity of their thoughts and if remote work is good or bad, or etc.... It's just an easy way to save a lot of money, and keep better tabs on your workforce.

Clent• 3 years ago

All those layoffs were so they wouldn't have to do 20-40% pay increases.

Should have unionized while we had the chance. At least a trade guild to protect ourselves.

Oh well. It was fun while it lasted.

wwtdtgotiatl• 3 years ago

IT workers have a union in Australia.

https://www.professionalsaustralia.org.au/

mvncleaninst5• 3 years ago

Honestly I don't feel super bothered by this, not because I'm content with settling for sub-par comp, but because (in California at least) the housing market and average comp are correlated

At the end of the day, if the housing market is going to soak up the additional surplus value, why should I care?

waveBidder2• 3 years ago

land value tax would solve this

nightowl_games2• 3 years ago

I agree. I'm from way outside California where the salaries are far lower. I've always thought the over inflated salaries of the valley were kinda toxic. Friends who I graduated with who were C students were making double what I make. One time I asked a web dev friend of mine what he thought of Kubernetes and he didn't even know what it was. This was just a couple years ago. I was shocked at little he knew and how much he got paid. He also had saved very little money, as it was all going to taking Uber to and from work and eating out every meal. Just seemed like a broken culture. Meanwhile I ride a bike to and from work and spend a ton of time cooking and cleaning, ya know, normal stuff. His life was exciting but there just seems to be a void in there when your making so much money and spending it all on having people serve you. Like in your mind, you must think you deserve it. But in my mind, you don't.

I know it's controversial and all, but that's my honest belief. Silicon Valley is amazing and there are truly great people there. But does a C student web dev who kinda doesn't give a shit really deserve 150$k/year? I assure you, he does not. Not while there are far more qualified people all over the globe who will do that job for half. Sure, remote work is hard, and having the team located locally is valuable, but the wealth is simply too centralized in this one location. It's causing a morphed self image to the people there. An over inflated ego. A condescension to outsiders. A constant need to justify their position. The culture needs a humbling. The wealth needs to spread.

afavour2• 3 years ago

I don’t think a web dev being unaware of Kubernetes is that rare, especially if we’re talking about a front end dev. Particularly in large companies jobs are very tightly segmented, the dev might just be given the URL for the backend API and not be expected to know much more about it than that.

mvncleaninst5• 3 years ago

Sometimes I read nonsense in comment sections on places like teamblind where people say sv companies "hire the best and brightest", then I remember some PRs I reviewed the other day where the authors had no fucking clue what they were doing and I think to myself "best and brightest"

hnav• 3 years ago

Sounds like your beef is with specialization, big tech companies don’t use k8s, don’t burden their web devs with devops and the aforementioned devs delegate food and transit to professionals who do it better than them.

JKCalhoun2• 3 years ago

I believe an engineer deserves whatever salary they can get. I try not to compare my salary with others; in the end we're all enabling huge salaries for upper management and CEO's, huge profits for shareholders. If someone makes $150K, $200K, that's awesome.

It's possible though, I found, to keep my midwest upbringing unspoilt in Silicon Valley. I ate out only once a week with the whole family, never took Uber, never owned a Tesla (owned a used minivan though).

After 26 years though I quit, sold the house, and moved with the wife (now empty nesters) back to the midwest.

Now I miss the excellent Asian food.

21432• 3 years ago

One time I asked a web dev friend of mine what he thought of Kubernetes and he didn't even know what it was. This was just a couple years ago. I was shocked at little he knew and how much he got paid.

Not be a good heuristic. Maybe they're in a job where they don't have to use Kubernetes.

Like, I know compiler developers who have no need to bother with Kubernetes.

But does a C student web dev who kinda doesn't give a shit really deserve 150$k/year?

In college they might have struggled; some people just don't work that well in a classroom environment. That doesn't necessarily mean they're idiots. Or maybe they improved afterwards.

Just because somebody got an A in classroom tests doesn't necessarily mean they should be the most-compensated.

The real world is complex.

andsoitis• 3 years ago

web dev friend of mine what he thought of Kubernetes and he didn't even know what it was

I bet they could ask you about foundational architecture and technologies for building user experiences and you won't know anything about it either

pm90• 3 years ago

Your paradigm of who is “deserving” of wealth and who isn’t is somewhat weird. I don’t think being a “C grade student” means that this individual cannot make contributions of value. Many people that don’t do very well in school find a lot of success outside of it.

000ooo0002• 3 years ago

But does a C student web dev who kinda doesn't give a shit really deserve 150$k/year? I assure you, he does not. Not while there are far more qualified people all over the globe who will do that job for half.

Buckle up, friend: there are individuals more qualified than you who will do your job for half what you get. They could probably make the exact same argument you've just made, about you. "Deserving wealth" is an idea we have right before the veil comes off and we realise this whole thing is a big joke. Forget "should", accept "is".

brailsafe2• 3 years ago

In some sense I agree that the sort of life some people lead isn't appealing, and arguably vapid, particularly in Silicon Valley.

But, complaining about someone who didn't give a shit about grades ultimately succeeding is really kind of a caricature of "Straight A Student" mentality. "I deserve it more" they cry about people who never bothered spending more energy than they needed to on something nobody should care about at all, let alone after graduation. It seems like you're needlessly harbouring resentment based on pretty a pretty shallow and superficial view in one person's life, or perhaps unwillingness to adopt that sort of lifestyle and make a big jump.

In some ways I also wish I could bring in the big tech bucks, and I make decent money occasionally, but I'm not casting aspersions on people who do, I just recognize that they are either more clever than me, or chose a specific regimented path that I simply haven't and am unwilling to.

KptMarchewa• 3 years ago

He also had saved very little money, as it was all going to taking Uber to and from work and eating out every meal.

Sounds like he did not earn that much if just Uber and eating out alone could consume significant amount.

gumballindie• 3 years ago

He also had saved very little money, as it was all going to taking Uber to and from work and eating out every meal.

This is critical to understanding one’s pay. It’s a little bit like a london software worker thinking they earn more than an east european worker, just because on paper they earn more. While the london worker barely rents a flat the east european worker owns two.

Similarly the sillicon valley worker earning three times more than you, but pissing away their money on a uber and a rent, is actually earning far less than you. Many in software are financially illiterate and dont grasp the difference between pay on paper and pay factoring in the cost of living.

Ancalagon• 3 years ago

You realize one devs high salary raises the average (and therefore expected) salary for all devs, right?

randyrand• 3 years ago

because you can sell your house and leave california whenever you want, and keep the money!

Sytten• 3 years ago

You can tell the bias of the article by reading the first sentence. It's funny when you read complaints of big employers of other countries, they are usually the same as your own but the numbers are different. I guess that's why I don't for canadian companies even as a contractor, can't make too good of a salary as a dev that would "crazy", "indecent".

quickthrower22• 3 years ago

https://archive.vn/lTQp2

quickthrower22• 3 years ago

He said salary and contractor rates have fallen by an average of 10 per cent to 15 per cent compared to 12 months ago. “The high salaries that occurred in the post-pandemic boom of tech for permanent and contract employees were not sustainable and employers are now looking to reduce costs,” Mr Munson said.

Lol, so it went up 10-15%, almost matching 2 years inflation, and then it dropped. And that was unsustainable?

frays• 3 years ago

This article is about Australia. Is it better or worse in the US?

karaterobot2• 3 years ago

https://archive.is/lTQp2

Tech sector Salaries have fallen up to 15 per cent as fired talent floods market

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