US rejects Australia’s calls to end pursuit of WikiLeaks

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/jul/29/julian-assange-us-rejects-australias-calls-to-free-wikileaks-founder-during-ausmin-talks

by Tomte • 3 years ago

77 89 3 years ago

theguardian.com

zarzavat2• 3 years ago

Australia should just kick the US out. How can you have a meaningful defense partnership with a country that holds your own journalists hostage? Can you imagine if China and Canada had been collaborating on defense while the two Michaels thing was going on?

nness• 3 years ago

Not worked well for Austraila, before:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the...

inconceivable2• 3 years ago

australians deeply hate/fear china at a visceral level, which is pretty much the only thing that matters in this relationship.

they'll gladly sacrifice their own economic growth and autonomy to bolster the US hegemony. this is patently obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together. it's less than 20 million white people sitting on a continent the size of the US. they need protection at any cost, no questions asked. this isn't rocket science.

DC wears the commonwealth crown these days, london is a literal sideshow/museum/slush fund and canberra is basically just a military/listening outpost with a mining station attached.

roenxi• 3 years ago

"hate" is too strong. Australia and China have both prospered together for many years. Australia has too much to be thankful to China for.

It is more likely pure fear. If current trends continue, at some point Australia'll have to knuckle under and start aligning ourselves with Chinese policy or get squished by them. And If the US/South America dynamic is any standard to go by, they'll probably start taking a more active role in moderating Australian politics which isn't welcome to the current politicians.

ganeshkrishnan2• 3 years ago

It's not the fear of china. Australia cannot make an independent decision without facing the wrath of the US. There is no way Australia or UK can part ways with US diplomatically

sandworm1012• 3 years ago

The UK also has a strategic position as part of the giuk gap.

keepamovin• 3 years ago

I’m sorry you had this experience, but it’s true. Australians are often deeply racist. However, Chinese are too. It’s unfortunate, but it’s not the main issue.

One issue Australians have is their vastly inferior (in general) level of rhetorical facility on these matters, as compared to Chinese. We just don’t have the quality of critical thought that many young Chinese are displaying. This sounds ridiculous, I know, but again it’s true.

If Australia is going to effectively think about, and eventually negotiate, its place in the changing order, its citizens need to get a lot more cosmopolitan, critical and perceptive about international affairs.

For educated Chinese, I suspect thinking critically about international perceptions and power (and possibly even relations) is almost second nature: it makes sense to have it as a National pastime for an emerging power.

Australians need to recognize the necessity of this for their own position, too, and work to let go of the limiting policy dogma that continues to constrain and limit their political thinking.

It may not be too useful to promote Paul Keating as a role model for this type of critical faculty as his stances will provoke too much opposition for people to want to admire or follow him. Yet the truth is his kind of contrarian policy thinking is exactly more of what Australian needs, even if of not exactly the same flavor.

Unfortunately, we’ve been a victim of our own success, and our economic buffer will conceivably for the midterm, insulate us from the urgent need to develop the critical faculties that are so essential to our long-term future.

In other words, people can say “why do I need to rethink it? we’re doing great.”

contingencies• 3 years ago

I hear on the grapevine that all US submarines globally are managed from a secret facility in northern Australia, which no longer need to surface as they now have water penetrating signals presumably from LEO satellites. Given that substantial importance alone, let alone Pine Gap, I don't think the US would allow kick-out. They'd just run some kind of CIA thing internally and rejig Aussie politics, which is a joke any way you look at it.... the only creatures in parliament last time I visited were a bunch of galahs doing a bit of grass on the roof. The only people keeping Aussie politicians relatively honest were the ABC, and they've been defunded. Canberra, Australia's political capital, representing the depth and expanse of its defense and political establishment, is its fastest growing city. Yet 45 minutes out of town there is no phone signal, like a developing country, and the bars say their best business comes when parliament is sitting. Source: Visited a month ago.

cempaka2• 3 years ago

They'd just run some kind of CIA thing internally and rejig Aussie politics

Did it once already:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-...

2OEH8eoCRo02• 3 years ago

holds your own journalists hostage?

The rub is that he is not a journalist.

lmpdev2• 3 years ago

Ahem we have other journalists we hold hostage

Edit: this is a joke about our National Security Laws and frivolous use of Gag Orders. Plus the AFP raiding journalists on a whim

inopinatus2• 3 years ago

the Australian government does not give a fuck about Australian citizens getting themselves in deep shit overseas, never has, never will

and it's because the ones that persist in doing so would wear their entitlement on every bloody sleeve so hard until every consulate is jammed up dealing with the procedural consequences of every half-cocked larrikin pisshead that tries stealing a tuk-tuk or whatever, and by the gods we export enough of them, sorry world

eastbound• 3 years ago

That may be your perception. On the other hand, there are posters in your airports saying that if an Australian uses prostitution overseas, he will be arrested when he comes back.

lmpdev2• 3 years ago

Australian here

We are a subimperial power. The metaphorical "empire" here being the "rules based" world order the US has established since WWII

We are the most powerful nation in Oceania but ultimately cannot confront the US when differences between us arise

We're one of the world's largest sources of minerals and land for the next few centuries. I don't think it's impossible we can't be invaded by a certainforeignpower by 2100

We're locally important, globally powerless and are clinging to the existing relational ties we have with our big brother, the US. Even to the determent of our own citizens

sandworm1012• 3 years ago

Australia is also still remote. It is literally far away from mostly things. Compare Canada, similar in size/resources/people/politics but geographically much closer to centers of power. Canada has more to fear.

mc323• 3 years ago

Any power on the Pacific is going to lick its chops at the natural resources it could exploit if it just has this barely populated continent. So the Japanese during WW II and the Chinese today. Another area in similar distress is Siberia but they do have the protection of a nuclear armed bear.

dkjaudyeqooe7• 3 years ago

cannot confront the US when differences between us arise

While it's true that Australia is a minnow compared to the US, it doesn't mean that it can't influence the US, it just means it can't coerce it, which no one can anyway.

Australia has done well so far by being a "middle power" and using diplomacy and statecraft. That's where its future lies. Everyone has to deal with the enormous power of the US, it's much better to do it as a "good friend".

dayofthedaleks• 3 years ago

If it's any consolation, I believe Five Eyes access puts a nation above any old NATO member in adjacency to US hegemony and will become even more of a geopolitical asset in coming decades.

But yeah any amount of reading about the CIA in Aus, especially 1975 stuff, makes the power relationship clear.

rjzzleep• 3 years ago

I think John Mearsheimer summed it up quite well. Australia doesn't really have a choice. They don't really know what will happen if they go against China, but there are a lot of precedents on what happens to countries that go against the US. I guess the general consensus is to not risk that.

The Aukus deal is completely crazy. Australia is paying the US to build their own shipyards in the hopes that they get the right to share OLD submarines with the UK.

“Now some people say there’s an alternative: you can go with China,” said Mearsheimer. “You have a choice here: you can go with China rather the United States. There’s two things I’ll say about that. Number one, if you go with China, you want to understand you are our enemy. You are then deciding to become an enemy of the United States. Because again, we’re talking about an intense security competition.”
“You’re either with us or against us,” he continued. “And if you’re trading extensively with China, and you’re friendly with China, you’re undermining the United States in this security competition. You’re feeding the beast, from our perspective. And that is not going to make us happy. And when we are not happy you do not want to underestimate how nasty we can be. Just ask Fidel Castro.”

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2023/03/14/on-war-with-china-au...

yongjik• 3 years ago

I think you're underselling your country. Australia is big and important enough that the US can't just ignore it or casually overthrow its government and install a puppet one.

Obviously, it would benefit Australia to keep a good relationship with the US, but that doesn't mean they have to acquiesce to every American demand. What is the US going to do? Find another Australia?

There are many countries that don't share much of the nebulous "values" with America yet enjoy a membership of US-led military alliances, because they're important enough. (Might not be a great example, but see Turkey.)

dkjaudyeqooe7• 3 years ago

The journalist thing is a fig leaf. He had a clear political agenda and happily did the bidding of the Russians (and others) in an attempt to score political points.

Calling yourself a journalist is not a get out of jail free card.

Meanwhile Australia relies on the US for it's security. It has basically no hope of defending its land mass with its existing defense force and has no interest in funding one that could.

If you put your proposal to Australians you'd basically have no hope of getting a majority that agreed.

throwawayqqq112• 3 years ago

Does his agenda make him lie? Does it have any impact on the sources, that used wikileaks?

No? Then why is it important?

You were right, it is a fig leaf for ones and a strawman for others.

The main problem, we as a society have, is a embassing lack of problem awareness! Guess what wikileaks does, i beg you.

salawat• 3 years ago

...As a whistleblower, you might as well call yourself everything you can, because as is evidenced by the degree of diplomatic murder hornet swarm you can kick up by outing governmental dirty laundry, you'll need all the help you can get.

See about every whistleblower of the last decade and a half.

McAfee, Assange, Snowden... and yet not one official ousted or inconvenienced. Astonishing really.

ChumpGPT• 3 years ago

Yeah, they should just kick the US out over Julian Assange, that'll teach them a good lesson they won't soon forget. Who needs the USA anyway, Australia will be fine without them.

BLKNSLVR2• 3 years ago

I know I'm replying to sarcasm, but China would literally buddy up to Australia as soon as any rift between between Australia and the US became publicised.

Australia potentially has more value to the US than vice versa.

sneak2• 3 years ago

A reminder: Assange has now been a political prisoner without trial for more than a decade, simply for engaging in journalism the US does not like.

glimshe• 3 years ago

I want Assange free. But a reminder for the sake of transparency: held in the UK fighting extradition. I think your statement oversimplifies it.

sneak2• 3 years ago

Before that, he was held in an embassy and illegally surveilled while dodging assassination attempts.

When you're in prison indefinitely without trial, I don't think the location, type, form, or administrative classification really matters that much when you can't be with your family.

He's fighting extradition, sure, but it's extradition to a place where Manning was approximately tortured to death (she attempted suicide multiple times), so it's not really relevant.

ganeshkrishnan2• 3 years ago

Don't forget cia recommended assassinating him

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/kidnapping-assassination-and-a-lon...

catboybotnet3• 3 years ago

To nobody's surprise: the U.S. does not actually have any protection for journalism, no protections for whistleblowers; if you embarrass them (worse in the case of WikiLeaks, being time and time again) they will get back at you to save any face. There is no reason to still go after Assange other than to make an example out of him.

alphabetting• 3 years ago

100%. I've never seen a journalist embarrass the US government and get away with it. That's why there hasn't been any negative coverage of Biden and Trump got a total pass from the media.

xtian• 3 years ago

Biden and Trump are not the empire.

theironhammer2• 3 years ago

Panama Papers? Although that's about financial shenanigans rather than Political.

But I still think the leaker was wise to remain anonymous.

thefurdrake3• 3 years ago

there hasn't been any negative coverage of Biden and Trump got a total pass from the media.

Are you from the Berenstein alternate reality? Do we have access to entirely-separate streams of media? No president in the united states has EVER avoided negative media coverage.

e2le• 3 years ago

They may even plot to assassinate you!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8041597/US-plotted-...

catboybotnet3• 3 years ago

Many such cases!

isaacremuant5• 3 years ago

Remember when it was a "conspiracy theory" that Assange being detained in the UK to be questioned in Sweden by reopening a case was absolutely to help him be extradited to the US and punished for his heinous crimes: exposing corruption.

That's why the conspiracy accusations and labels and downvotes for the current thing shouldn't faze anyone, it's par for the course and then people pretend it never happened and that "we were always at war with eastasia".

luma4• 3 years ago

Exposing corruption, and also working directly with Russian intelligence to influence US elections. Assange is a complicated guy playing in a dangerous world, let's not pretend anyone involved here is a saint.

cempaka2• 3 years ago

The dogged pursuit of Assange long predates the 2016 election.

commonlisp94• 3 years ago

influence US elections

I can't believe this narrative is still repeated. "influence" can mean almost anything. In the headliner 2016 story, it meant a few based Russian organizations bought several million dollars of targeted Facebook ads. That's what broke democracy I guess.

In Assange's case it means he released existing emails which reflected negatively on a candidate. In that past most of his released material has negatively reflected on republicans.

The US has an interest in, and is "influencing" foreign election 24/7 365.

isaacremuant5• 3 years ago

That's just Government propaganda. The same bullshit type of propaganda that was used against Daniel Ellsberg and everyone else who exposed corruption in power.

Your comment is just muddying the waters with a strawman: "someone being a saint" to avoid the very true fact that Assange is persecuted and imprisoned for being adversarial to the government and exposing corruption. It's very simple.

As for influencing US elections, you should look into the CIA/FBI and your own corrupt political parties that censor left and right when truths that are inconvenient appear. Oh, who would've thought, exactly like in Assange's case.

The whole accusing someone of Russia is just so disingenuous and time and time again (russiagate, Hunter's laptop, etc) it's shown to be absolute bullshit, that is happily reproduced by the bought and paid for media, who has ex CIA people happily being panelists and commentators.

It's so ridiculous and your comment extremely low effort.

mc323• 3 years ago

Pretty much.

Anything a gov or an ideology doesn’t like often gets labeled conspiracy theory, [foreign] disinformation/collusion, terrorism, fascism. Some times throw throw more than one accusation at the idea they despise. Obviously sometimes those accusations are true in order to work, but it’s getting ridiculous now.

ailef• 3 years ago

I'm really baffled by this. For example in the US, it's enough to just associate something with Russia for everyone to immediately drop any kind of critical thinking. You don't even have to provide compelling evidence for it. The association alone (real or made up) is already enough to completely corrupt the subject's image. This trick has been played dozens of times but somehow people still fall for it...

DANmode• 3 years ago

Conspiracy accusations are important.

You're talking about accusations of conspiracy theories.

BLKNSLVR2• 3 years ago

Whilst it's important to stand up to the US on this matter, is there any way Australia can arrange with the UK to send him home?

the WikiLeaks founder is alleged to have “risked very serious harm to our national security”.

Where "national security" = "reputation"

US rejects Australia’s calls to end pursuit of WikiLeaks

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