Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/11/business/discord-leaked-military-documents.html

by hi5eyes • 3 years ago

94 229 3 years ago

mannyv• 3 years ago

The NYT characterizes 4chan as a far-right message board, which is ridiculous.

I mean, if giving the finger to pretty much everything is considered far-right, then what's considered far-left? Fundamentalism?

jterrys• 3 years ago

It's 2023. The site has been around for 19 years. If they haven't gotten it right by this point, they never will. And its "probably" that way by design.

brucethemoose24• 3 years ago

then what's considered far-left

4chan. The most notorious boards feel anarchist and were very anti-globalist long before it was fashionable.

But as you implied, 4chan as a whole is not homogenous.

qtzfz• 3 years ago

Anarchism and anti-globalism were far-left values like 20 years ago. Right now the left and far-left give strong "conform" vibes.

pcwalton2• 3 years ago

The board specifically set aside for politics on 4chan is probably the most popular neo-Nazi discussion forum on the internet. "Far-right" is a completely fair description of the political leanings of that site.

brucethemoose24• 3 years ago

But they have never been "far right" in the way that the traditional racial supremacy kind of neo nazis are.

If anything, they are good evidence for horseshoe theory, or perhaps invalidity of the left-right scale: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_theory

SkinTaco• 3 years ago

This is like saying reddit is far right because of the_donald

local_crmdgeon• 3 years ago

I thought Stormfront was the big website for them? /pol/ is a bunch of nutters but it's not well organized. Arguably there's more visible White Nationalism on Twitter.

SpaceManNabs4• 3 years ago

/b/, /vg/, /v/, /pol/ and sometimes /g/ all have strong alt right representation. (actually /g/ is still much more libertarian but you get some bleed in here and there).

Even /sci/ has changed. You have race IQ intelligence threads all the time compared to 2011. Instead of the daily Putnam problem thread, you get that garbage.

NYT is pretty on the money here.

If this were 2010, I'd disagree with them, but not nowadays.

disclaimer of my own bias: I stopped using 4chan in 2012 because of how much of an alt right mess it became after /r9k/. Didn't have the words to describe it back then. I remember people making endless Dragon Age memes in the pinned thread in /v/ in response to the mass shooting by a particular Anders in 2011. They were celebrating it, and it was the most active live thread on the site in that moment.

YarickR22• 3 years ago

Please define alt right, in your own words. It seems everyone claiming 4chan is right, far right, or alt right, means something rather different

gruez8• 3 years ago

Even /sci/ has changed. You have race IQ intelligence threads all the time compared to 2011. Instead of the daily Putnam problem thread, you get that garbage.

Is race IQ intelligence discussion really "garbage"? To my knowledge there isn't strong evidence confirming or disproving the theory, but the science on the genetic component of intelligence is pretty solid, and it isn't implausible that certain ethnic groups have genes that confer more intelligence, similar to how certain ethnic groups have genes that make them taller or better runners (see for instance, the olympic winners for sprints).

netsharc• 3 years ago

My guess is (since I don't claim to be a 4chan expert), in the beginning, 4chan users were just being edgy by being trolls and being for the choices that would lead to chaos (by being not politically correct, by supporting Donald Trump), but this attracted many genuine right-wingers, and if they do bother to hang out there, that would mean 4chan has become a far-right message board.

antibasilisk2• 3 years ago

The uptick in unironic racism mostly happened when stormfront discovered 4chan.

bearjaws• 3 years ago

I mean, giving the finger to everything is a pretty common trope amongst the far right.

Everyone has their uncle or cousin that says "I am not racist I just hate everyone equally"...

It's also a GOP playbook to destroy or disrupt social services and education to then say "look how bad everything is"...

vkou• 3 years ago

Saying 4chan isn't a far-right message board is like saying HN isn't a tech forum, and citing the existence of non-tech threads to support that argument.

_rmhc• 3 years ago

The Something Awful forums are probably the most virulently far left "major" online space at present.

They mostly keep the communism will win white genocide now stuff behind the paywall though.

beebmam4• 3 years ago

I think the accusation that 4chan is a far-right message board is accurate, and I believe that accusation can be supported by showing that 4chan's explicitly stated rules can be used to plausibly deny this accusation, while demonstrating that they're are not enforced (or selectively enforced).

4chan's Rule 3: "You will not post any of the following outside of /b/: Troll posts, Racism, Anthropomorphic ("furry") pornography, Grotesque ("guro") images..."

These rules are constantly being violated across many of the boards, and moderators rarely take action on some of the boards when posts are reported unless they explicitly violate US law. I've seen so many threads get to 400+ replies and fall off the boards, threads that blatantly violate these rules. The period of time after the 2020 election was brutal, an enormous amount of violent and racist content was not removed.

Rules are often even selectively enforced, sculpting narratives that moderator cliques decide on (see /pol/ for example).

At some point, it's worthwhile to ask "who benefits?" from these rules not being enforced. The kind of content that doesn't get moderated is strictly far-right stuff.

andrewclunn• 3 years ago

Anthropomorphic furry porn is right wing now? I think there are some people for whom "offensive to me," "offensive to others, and "right wing" are equivalent terms. All your post does is prove that you fall into that category. Live Leak death videos and racist jokes are no more "right wing" than pedophilia is "left wing" (which is to say that it isn't).

Now some people break down racism in some weird way where bigotry towards Africans or Hispanics is "right wing" and bigotry toward Caucasians and Asians is "left wing," but those people are laughable in their tribalistic thinking and weird politicization of everything.

flangola7• 3 years ago

Have you even been on 4chan before? This isn't some nuanced "what actually is systemic bigotry?" question. "Ni**s and tra**s should all be burned alive and there should be bounties that pay for it" is not a subtle message. Yet it is a sentiment that is visible (and often verbatim) in every thread, and which receives supportive replies.

carom6• 3 years ago

There are people of all political persuasions on 4chan. You're free to go on there and deride any white nationalists you see. No one will ban you.

micromacrofoot7• 3 years ago

You're free to go on there and deride any white nationalists you see

Yes but you can do this anywhere. There are a limited number of places where you can openly be a white nationalist without being banned, 4chan is one of them.

enlyth• 3 years ago

Yeah you can argue that /pol/ sways far right and you'd be correct, and I don't personally condone most of the opinions that are represented there, but take a look at the general threads, you have a pro-ukraine one and an anti-ukraine one, both with equal representation. I can't think of any other site that has this. Any other website following the classical formula of pseudonyms and upvotes/downvotes, like Reddit, hackernews, and so on, are destined to be an echo chamber. You can feel it here too, even though HN is heavily moderated.

And say what you want about 4chan, but the most popular open source machine learning frontends come from /g/, that is, Automatic1111's stable diffusion, ComfyUI from Comfyanomyous, and oobabooga text-generation-ui for running LLMs locally. It's a place which is hostile to the lowest common denominator of the internet, which functions as a great filter for better or worse.

If you want a comfortable safe space that shields you from being offended, the popular social networks are great for you, but if you have thick skin and can handle unfiltered conversation, there is nothing more visceral and organic than 4chan, despite all its warts.

danjoredd2• 3 years ago

The rules not being enforced really is 4chan's worst problems, and where everything else terrible on that site stems. On /g/, the tech board, you will see nothing but flame wars and troll posts for/against various operating systems and programming languages. Its basically nonstop trolling DESPITE being one of the more serious boards. Worse, a lot of the "jannies"(unpaid tattletales) are in on the trolling and actively make posts to start flame wars.

For the admins, its a problem. Besides 8kun, they are pretty much the only major image board with anything really going for it, especially now that 420chan has bit the dust. However, if they enforce the rules, its very likely that people will either stop using it entirely or move on to 8kun instead. For the janitor problem, 4chan relies almost entirely on them to report posts that break the rules to the admins, but since its on a volunteer basis, janitors have no reason to take the role seriously which has led the site to be the gutter it is now.

Basically, the whole 4chan system is screwed. I used to go to 420chan as an alternative because it was way more "chill" and there was way less racism and trolling due to it having actual moderation. Now that its gone though my only choice for imageboards are 4chan and its much worse brother, 8kun so I have decided to stop using imageboards entirely until something decent gets started.

jjulius2• 3 years ago

... which has led the site to be the gutter it is now.

... now? It's felt like a cesspool for decades.

dmonitor2• 3 years ago

It’s interesting that the website is considered far-right simply because it doesn’t ban far-right posters. The website isn’t explicitly for right-wingers, but by allowing them to post on the website that’s what it’s become.

sudosysgen3• 3 years ago

More specifically, it allows far righters to post against its rules, but enforces them against other groups. It's hardly surprising then.

seizethegdgap2• 3 years ago

It's the Nazi Bar problem.

https://twitter.com/IamRageSparkle/status/128089253502461952...

WatchDog2• 3 years ago

I think it's far-right representation has certainly grown over time, probably largely as a function of right-wing speech being pushed out of other platforms.

However 4chan has always had, and continues to have quite broad demographics, it attracts extremes, by nature of it's low moderation and permissive content policies.

Some examples of left wing associated content could be it's very active LGBT user base.

It's involvement political movements like "anonymous", targeting groups like the Westboro baptist church, hacking the website of Uganda's anti-gay prime minister, occupy wall street, etc.

tonfreed• 3 years ago

Grown or concentrated? I can assure you they've always been on Facebook and Twitter, if you didn't see them you were probably bubbled by the algorithm. After the 2016 election a lot of the more mainstream sites decided they didn't want to host them anymore, it's kinda a no-brainer that they'd go to places like 4chan that won't kick them off

amanaplanacanal• 3 years ago

LGBT is not inherently left wing. I’m not sure why you would think it is.

retox• 3 years ago

Rules are often even selectively enforced, sculpting narratives that moderator cliques decide on (see /pol/ for example).

I can tell you for a fact that the large majority of the mods despise /pol/. As for rules not being enforced, if a post is not reported it likely won't be acted upon.

beebmam4• 3 years ago

I've reported 1000+ non-illegal posts for breaking the rules, at minimum, with very low (<5%) action/moderation rate on the extreme boards.

throwaway2023032• 3 years ago

always weird to read someones made up opinion of an online space. the documentary about pepe was the same

notjulianjaynes2• 3 years ago

"Losers. That’s who the U.S. government really has to fear.”

The New York Times has published, by my count, 15 articles on this leak in the past 7 days.

colpabar• 3 years ago

Could you explain what you’re implying because I don’t get it

bakugo• 3 years ago

I think the implication here is that, if you write 15 articles in 1 week about people you claim are "losers", maybe you're the loser.

notjulianjaynes2• 3 years ago

It strikes me as somewhat petty that the Times apparently considers the information in the leak important enough to cover so thoroughly, yet they think so little of the source of that information that they'll interview a 20 year old comedy vlogger (haven't watched channel) in the UK to get some quotes painting that source as some sort of right wing extremist group. Maybe they are, but I did not see evidence of such laid out in this article.

But the unfiltered, edgy banter in the wow_mao server, which is called the End of Wow Mao Zone, and in many other servers like it, can sometimes veer into darker territory. Those servers are sometimes described as the less venomous cousins of 4chan, the far-right anonymous message board known for sharing conspiracy theories and popularizing QAnon. Many 4chan users split their time between Discord and 4chan, sharing digital memes and chatting with friends.

Emphasis added.

plaguepilled2• 3 years ago

"Losers. That’s who the U.S. government really has to fear.”

So... they fear NYT? Does this count as a publication threatening the government?

Stevvo• 3 years ago

In their first article, the documents they published and wrote about were the versions that had been doctored in Russia's favor.

ukuuru• 3 years ago

So they are getting enough clicks to keep going.

Apocryphon2• 3 years ago

Is Discord PR active in this thread? TFA centers on that platform, with 4chan being mentioned only a handful of times, yet this thread so far is completely focused on 4chan.

dmreedy• 3 years ago

I think more likely there are just a lot of 4chan users on this site. And some subset of those take perceived attacks like these quite personally.

Apocryphon2• 3 years ago

I was joking- I think it's just HN being really good at jumping down the wrong rabbit holes and bike-shedding ad nauseam, while completely missing the point of an OP.

neonate• 3 years ago

https://archive.ph/Oia1n

http://web.archive.org/web/20230412204156/https://www.nytime...

v0idzer02• 3 years ago

NYT gets so much mileage out of “researchers say” and “experts say” yet they never cite anyone

ctvo2• 3 years ago

Dark humor about race or ideology can eventually shape the beliefs of impressionable young people, and innocuous memes can be co-opted into symbols of hatred, researchers say.

Immediately following this paragraph is a quote from a researcher:

“If you’re a young man with no prospects hanging out on 4chan, you’re definitely on some Discords and probably some pretty dark Discords,” said Dale Beran, a lecturer at Morgan State University and the author of “It Came from Something Awful: How a Toxic Troll Army Accidentally Memed Donald Trump into Office.”

mc32• 3 years ago

Hmmm this harkens back to “movies influence kids” “music influences kids”, video games influence kids” etc that many people argued in order to censor aspects of music, movies and video games.

sbuttgereit• 3 years ago

"Dale Beran - Lecturer/ Animation Coordinator , Screenwriting and Animation"

Researcher, perhaps, but seems to not be what his credentials or college role is about.

https://www.morgan.edu/screenwriting-and-animation/faculty-a...

FormerBandmate2• 3 years ago

I really doubt there’s any academic rigor behind that tbh

naniwaduni• 3 years ago

I was generally under the impression that lecturers are not normally research personnel.

jamal-kumar• 3 years ago

I almost forgot all this nonsense originated at somethingawful. That's really weird thinking back. I still say little jokes I first heard on there once in a while. People playing video games get so mad if you say "Get the power up and win the game!" haha

RobotToaster• 3 years ago

If you’re a young man with no prospects

"The most dangerous creation of any society is the man who has nothing to lose." — James Baldwin.

User23• 3 years ago

Blaming goons for Trump is pretty next level. That’s butterfly effect stuff if it’s true.

RoyGBivCap• 3 years ago

“It Came from Something Awful: How a Toxic Troll Army Accidentally Memed Donald Trump into Office.”

CNN and reddit arguably did more than 4chan to get trump elected. They couldn't shut up about him and they have way more reach than 4chan.

somedude8953• 3 years ago

innocuous memes can be co-opted into symbols of hatred, researchers say.

It's beside the point, but does anybody actually see social studies and the like as "science" anymore when people in them get bullied and silenced and have their careers destroyed if they think or say the wrong thing? When things that go against left-wing beliefs don't get published? When an overwhelming majority of them are on the same political spectrum? After the grievance studies affair? I see it more as a propaganda machinery and after all if you tortute the data long enough, it will confess. I basically just ignore their research whenever I see this sort of stuff.

qikInNdOutReply2• 3 years ago

Well, if you are young and hopeless, they have no help or solutions for you, but at least a rubber stamp..

And then, when the hotpot they ve been steering for a generation boils over, its all clutching pearls and "how could this happen".

havblue• 3 years ago

Well they need to throw in the "researchers say" statements, otherwise their articles would almost consist entirely of anecdotal human interest stories!

de_nied• 3 years ago

"sources familiar with the situation"

baidifnaoxi• 3 years ago

“Nine people familiar with his thinking”

jjeaff3• 3 years ago

So that phrase actually means something when you are dealing with real journalistic news organizations like NPR or NYT for example. I believe at the NYT, everything of consequence must be double sourced. And in the case of confidential sources, the reporter must reveal the source to their editor so that there is another set of eyes confirming validity. So it's not quite as nebulous and useless as some make it out to be.

pwned1• 3 years ago

When a reporter wants to insert his or her own opinion, they simply refer to a random "expert" or "researcher" of said subject. So when you see such wording, just think in your head, "I say."

guardiangod• 3 years ago

I am sad that Discord has replaced IRC as the chatroom of the internet's subculture.

Minor49er• 3 years ago

IRC lacks widespread support for things like roles, reactions, avatars, threads, showing chat history from before someone enters a channel, search history, and having video and voice chat without piggybacking on top of DCC. There also aren't sync issues within Discord that cause things like netsplits which are somewhat common on IRC

I know some newer versions of the IRC spec try to address at least some of these, but as far as I'm aware, they aren't very widely supported

dewey• 3 years ago

IRC is also just not ready for a multiple device lifestyle. People expect to log in and have the same stats across devices, that’s very hard to do with IRC.

bastawhiz• 3 years ago

Technology improved, people got Features and Devices, they wanted to use their Features and Devices, and they switched to the service that gave them their Features on their Devices. There's no mystery.

The average person doesn't care about federation or an open protocol or whatever. They probably don't even understand those things and they don't want to understand them. They just want to chat with their friends and send emojis and not get upset that things don't work. IRC, by all accounts, fails to do—out of the box—all of those things (well).

alwayslikethis3• 3 years ago

Me too. Judging by Discord's tendencies toward speech policing and censorship there will be plenty of groups staying out of it though. A large part of the previous subculture will probably be banned promptly on Discord.

antibasilisk2• 3 years ago

They just go to Telegram

sega_sai• 3 years ago

There is a very good Lawfare podcast with the Bellingcat investigator on that https://www.lawfareblog.com/lawfare-podcast-rid-and-toler-la... which goes into more details on this.

baryphonic• 3 years ago

Notwithstanding the New York Times calling 4chan far-right and blatantly editorializing (seriously, if this is a news piece, why is there commentary about Discord's moderation policy?), I am most interested in whether the leaks are true.

Has the White House been grossly over-representing Ukraine's chances? Will Ukraine be unable to protect their airspace after late May?

thinkingemote• 3 years ago

Leaks are different from hacks in that they are released secretly Vs stolen. Usually a leak has a purpose.

Often it's political, and political messaging particularly about war is propaganda.

harry8• 3 years ago

The only difference between a leak and hack is whether there was one person trusted with the information knowingly involved in the transfer chain to publication or not.

We don't have different words as to motives of those doing the leaking. A leak can be to support the status quo or hostile to it or anything else besides.

TeeMassive2• 3 years ago

During the invasion Crimea Obama refused to send military support because it would just help create a long war of attrition, which Russia has more than enough the ressource to sustain, with the same outcome.

uni_rule• 3 years ago

Well 4chan sure as hell isn't full of Marxist college students quoting theory at each other nor is it milquetoast CNN-style liberals. It is predominantly right wing (in an edgy 7th grader sort of way) to the point of needing kill files to be legible like the old days of Usenet.

At the very least it's not more anarchist leaning like it was 15 years ago.

perryizgr8• 3 years ago

Wow that was content free. What is the actual info that was leaked?

pragmar2• 3 years ago

The notable bit was the killed in action numbers from the conflict: 17k Russian troops, and 70k on the Ukrainian side. Estimates from US and European leaders have been all over the map, some in this neighborhood, but others saying more Russians were KIA than were Ukrainians.

ranger207• 3 years ago

Those numbers are edited. Someone basically flipped the order of the digits, eg from 17k to 71k Ukrainian KiA. This is easily confirmed by the Russian aircraft losses; Oryx has many more visually confirmed losses than the edited number claims, and by its very nature Oryx's list is an underestimate.

https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1644139100407054336?cxt...

TrapLord_Rhodo2• 3 years ago

How can you even tell what actual info was leaked? How can you tell if the info leaked in real?

We have entered into a era where the difference between real and fake is almost impossible to distinguish. Deep fakes and LLM's are going to change propoganda forever.

TrapLord_Rhodo2• 3 years ago

In an article about leaked documents, they sure don't talk alot about the documents that were leaked...

Is it some kind of psych-op, LLM going on in the comments? No one's interested or curious about the documents and are spamming the page with 4chan shit?

Meme group on Discord is focus of uproar over leaked Pentagon documents

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