Ask HN: Any Hackers in Middle America?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=351451

by jreilly • 18 years ago

22 62 18 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I understand the advantages of being on either coast for hackers looking to get involved in a startup but which hackers reside in Middle America and why?

Note: I recently moved to Indianapolis and have found it much worse than expected (which was pretty terrible) for anyone interested in web app startup.

endlessvoid94• 18 years ago

I'm a student at U of I in Champaign, IL. Because of the school, there are a lot of good hackers here. But they all move far away when they graduate.

ljlolel• 18 years ago

Django (currently the best Python web framework) originated in an innovative local newspaper in Lawrence, Kansas. A number of other Django hackers reside there: http://djangopeople.net/us/ks/

sachinag2• 18 years ago

Yeah, but Adrian did it while he was living in Chicago - he never actually lived in Lawrence.

Of course, Chicago is in middle America.

hugs• 18 years ago

And Chicago rocks.

Brushfire6• 18 years ago

Welcome to Indy. It is pretty bad here. So much so that I'm moving away.

There are lots of companies that call themselves startups around here, perhaps 10% truly are. The most notable one in all the media is ChaCha, and its a fucking joke if you ask me.

There are good developers/hackers around here, but its not the same as the west coast.

Either way, welcome to Indy... It can be an OK city if you like Insurance, Transportation, Conventions and Basketball. :p

Brushfire6• 18 years ago

I forgot to mention... There are two saving points for Indy that help it a little:

1 - IU Bloomington (not far) was ranked the #1 Public University (#2 Overall) for Entrepreneurship in the country. There are lots of people down there that are trying neat things and are willing to help startups.

2 - The cost of starting a startup here is retarded low. I can get full office space with utilities included for <$500/mo for a small slace or <$1000 for a medium/large space. You wont find that anywhere. Employment costs are lower, living expenses, training costs, infrastructure costs, etc -- all lower.

Still, it wont help you that much since there are very few people in the midwest with startup mentality. And finding '1st' customers here is a real pain. I had my last startup here and we had the biggest problem convincing someone to even spend 3 minutes to try something new. There is a conservatism at work that shuns new things until they are 'proven'. Most successful software/startup companies in the midwest still find their first customers on the coasts.

tptacek5• 18 years ago

Those office space costs are comparable to Chicago. Indy is smaller and less desireable, but there's much more supply in Chicago.

jreilly4• 18 years ago

Brushfire, good to hear that I am not the only one. I graduated from Duke this May and moved to Indy because I knew a bunch of people here and it is so cheap. I had no idea what I wanted to do but figure I would try it out for a year. Pretty miserable.

Funny that you should mention ChaCha because when I got here the most intriguing opportunities I could find were with Scott Jones' companies (founder of ChaCha). I recently started working for SAJE and GalaxiaLighting.com, two of his newer companies, but am holding my judgment until I am there a little longer. I have a feeling I may be on my way out of here when my lease runs up next summer unless something changes. Scott is a serial entrepreneur who is trying to bring the spirit to Indiana through his companies and foundations but progress seems to be slow.

Brushfire6• 18 years ago

Interesting. Please dont take this the wrong way, but my opinion of Scott is that he is terribly smart, but cant find anything to focus on for more than a year. So he continually starts companies, raises money based on his name, and then forgets them after a bit, and moves on. Perhaps this isnt fair/true, its just the impression that his history gives off.

Either way, good luck.

breck2• 18 years ago

I graduated from Duke in '07 and lived in Cambridge for a year. Moved to SanFran in September. I'm learning at an order of magnitude faster rate, earning an order of magnitude more, building an order of magnitude more professional relationships...should I go on?

I also love the quality of life out here and live frugally, much cheaper than in Boston.

I would not walk, RUN, here from Indy. If you do, there's also a very solid group of Duke Tech entrepreneurs out here that meet regularly.

mlLK4• 18 years ago

http://interactions.net ; you might find interesting. Their most accessible client for the public is Hot Box Pizza. If you've ever ordered a pizza from them you are using their product.

mileszs4• 18 years ago

I'm in Indy, also. I haven't lived here long. I think that part of the problem is that there are more startup-oriented people than one would think, but everyone thinks there are no startup oriented people. (A couple weeks ago I found out my neighbor in the apartment above me had applied to YC, and is a HackerNews reader. Tim?)

Perhaps we should have an Indy HN meetup sometime. In what part of Indy are you (you being anyone in Indy reading this) located?

If you like Ruby, there is a monthly Ruby group meeting at the downtown library (which is pretty awesome, in my opinion). Search meetup.com for Ruby and Indianapolis.

Complaining is useless. Maybe we can improve the city's startup scene ourselves, huh? Who else is going to do it?

Edit: To clarify: the library is awesome. I've only been to last month's Ruby meeting, so far. I get the feeling many of these sorts of groups are in their infancy. The Ruby group is sponsored by DealerFlow (http://dealerflow.com/), which is a startup of sorts. The Indianapolis Star (newspaper) employs some Ruby hackers (Indy.com is currently Rails, for now). I work at a data center (ChaCha is a customer) writing our custom intranet apps using Ruby/Rails. There are bright spots in Indy, you just have to dig.

jreilly4• 18 years ago

Let me know if a Indy HN meetup ever forms. I will definitely be up for it. Right now I live right downtown and work up in Carmel.

netshade• 18 years ago

Agreed. I also go to the Indy Ruby Meetup (one of the Star guys), and the city scene is not terrible. (at least, in terms of the talent you'll meet)

In terms of available jobs, it is a bit frustrating. I know the Dealer Flow guys are currently looking for new talent - they're doing some cool stuff w/ Erlang (ejabberd, primarily I believe) and Ruby/Rails. There's a place in town called Sagebit (sagebit.com), which is smaller and does a mix of their own products + consultancy work. I don't know if they're looking, but they're good people to meet regardless. (Ruby/Rails/Merb, btw.) I know there's also some startup stuff going on down in Bloomington, which is (of course, entirely by my own opinion) a bit more likely of a town to make good computer sci. contacts in the greater world, what with your proximity to IUB. I only say that to guess, however.

Additionally, there's a Python meetup group in town, a bit smaller than the Ruby group. They've been regularly meeting at Broadripple Brewpub, and are primarily pushed by Six Feet Up, a company that's pretty active in the Zope/Plone/Python world. SFU is mostly consultant based, not really a startup, but they're good people to meet if you're more into that sorta thing.

AFA an HN meetup in Indy, I'd give a +1 to that.

profgubler• 18 years ago

Mileszs, I am all about having a HN meetup in Indy. That would be great. It could really help people brainstorm and make the right connections. I think as the economy drags, you will see more of the programmers at places like Interactive Intelligence and others wanting to create a startup.

Brushfire6• 18 years ago

I Would be down to do a HN meetup as well. I had no idea about the ruby meeting... which is awesome.

I know at least 2-3 people which might come to either/both depending on timing/schedules.

Anyone have a good idea for organizing this? Not to re-invent the 'meetup.com' wheel, but perhaps we could create a mini "HN Fans Meetup" web app, that would benefit not only people in Indy but also any other state that isnt CA or MA..

Edit: I live near Broad Ripple, so pretty much anywhere that isnt Greenwood or Westfield is game. Even then, I'll probably come. :)

Brian

indylarry• 18 years ago

+1 for HN meetup. I have lived in Indy almost all my life and love it. However, if you are looking for a hot bed of web startups you are going to be disappointed. It is extremely hard to keep talented people here with the magnetic pull of SF and Boston.

The entrepreneurial community has been growing in the last few years and I believe the local angel investors and VC's are open to ideas revolving around the internet and technology. I have been to a few events put on by the Indiana Economic Development Corporation and both had contests for the best startup pitch/idea. Both were run by small startups (a website and a database technology company).

Indy isn't for everyone. I say go where you have to to get what you want.

mileszs4• 18 years ago

I'd love an email from anyone interested in attempting to organize some sort of meet-up. See my profile. (I'm down to help organize something, but I'm quite green. Does such a meet-up need an agenda?)

mileszs4• 18 years ago

There's an event called "Indy Startup Weekend" coming up in December: http://indianapolis.startupweekend.com/

mlLK4• 18 years ago

40 whoopers per session!?

oldgregg• 18 years ago

Middle America: Even people who "support" you kind of pat you on the head "oh that's nice" because they don't really get it.

Get Lucky: You might find a friend or two, and that's all you need to stay motivated, but don't anything beyond that.

The Wasteland: I lived in Nashville for far too long. People just don't give a damn about ideas. They don't even think about ideas. They just want to make some money and hang out. They don't value work and ideas for their own sake, but only in terms of the financial benefits they bring. That is what slayed me. Not having people with any kind of vision.

Get out: I would be curious which city you came from before Indy? If you haven't spent a couple months in sf/seattle/austin/boston/nyc, give it a shot, you'll never want to go back.

jreilly4• 18 years ago

My entire life before college was spent in a suburb of Boston. I loved it but wanted to try something new for a year to get some basis for comparison. Frankly, I didn't know how much I liked it until I left. I am sure at some point I will be heading back to stay.

tdavis• 18 years ago

Middle America: Even people who "support" you kind of pat you on the head "oh that's nice" because they don't really get it.

Even my parents reacted like this. For a while my Dad thought it was little more than a pipe dream. I'm sure he secretly thought "What the hell is this boy doing? He gets back from Afghanistan, decides not to finish college, and instead moves out to Boston for some Internet... thing? WHERE DID I GO WRONG?!?!" ;)

He now understands things better and though my parents still don't really understand the entire idea of a "web business" and "venture capitalists" (which obviously aren't a web-only thing, but they are from Ohio after all...) and all that rot, they are now more realistic about it and "get" why I did this... why I had to, even.

The 13 hour stretch from Cincinnati to Boston was easily one of the best days of my life. Shedding the shackles of mid-western suburbia to embark on an adventure, having no idea how or when it would end or where it would take me. I'd never felt so... free. Where I came from exhibits quite the contrast; a society content to live firmly within the lines of what is considered proper, reasonable and safe.

jaxn• 18 years ago

Maybe you left Nashville a little too soon.

Right now we have a really solid community and it is growing all the time. There are quite a few startups here. We had Startup Weekend with 80 or so people a few weeks ago. Two weeks ago we had a BarCamp that had 500 attendees.

Granted, quantity is not the same as quality, but I think we have lots of talent here.

Now, most of the early stage capital that is available in Nashville is limited to health care technology. That is a problem (bootstrapping is great, but it takes all kinds).

If I was going to leave Nashville, I don't think I would go to the Bay Area. I have a nice house with a yard in a good school district that cost me well under $300k. The overall quality of life here is great, and really, isn't quality of life what it is really all about?

So what non-coast areas are strong for startups?

Denver Chicago Austin Atlanta North Carolina (research triangle)

Where else? Tallahassee?

BigZaphod• 18 years ago

I was born, raised, and still live in Iowa and I've worked for several startups for many years now - they are just all based elsewhere. One was European, one from the valley, one in Florida, etc. I haven't found a need to move just for the sake of working in this industry. The Internet is a wonderful thing. Coffee shops are my office. Total freedom.

pxlpshr• 18 years ago

There are two hot beds in the "middle" where you can find strong activity. Austin, TX and Boulder, CO... I live in Austin for it's low cost of living, Univ of Texas resources, Texas' strong economy, and no state income tax. The only thing that bothers is me is that we're in the bible belt... :)

sachinag2• 18 years ago

Austin is a fantastic place to start - and SXSW coming in town every year is huge.

tptacek5• 18 years ago

I'm going to call you on that and ask for details on how SXSW is really huge for a startup. Got an anecdote?

mwtalbert• 18 years ago

I'm from Dayton OH and I work as a freelance programmer. The worst part is that it is very hard to find any kind of freelance work that doesn't involve using Microsoft products. I would love to do some Django projects, but everyone is hooked on asp.net or php.

tptacek5• 18 years ago

I've got a company in Chicago; we're in the process of outgrowing our third office in 2 years. I can (have, in fact) given a litany of reasons why Chicago can be a better choice than the bay area, where my last company ran out of.

(Half my company is in Manhattan, but our revenue isn't 50/50).

I have friends in Indy with a thriving, well-funded company in the telephony space; I'll try to get one of them to chime in with why they moved their company from NYC metro to Indiana.

Prior to Matasano, I spent 4 years at a VC-funded startup in Ann Arbor, MI --- Arbor Networks. Being in the middle of nowhere is great for the company and crappy for the employees; Arbor was the only credible option for a developer with a mortgage in Ann Arbor, so most of the team was stuck.

time_management• 18 years ago

Why was Ann Arbor "crappy for the employees"? I think it would be a pretty nice place to live.

tptacek5• 18 years ago

Ann Arbor is actually a pretty excellent place to live, especially if you have kids. They get what I perceive to be a better than average share of touring bands, both in Ann Arbor and in Detroit. The quality of restaurants is fairly high. Lots of good cafes. The city and central campus is walkable. Leopold's and Old Town are good bars, as is Ashley's on the off season. And you get Zingermans, which is a force of nature.

Housing costs are higher than average (lots of people move to Dexter and Ypsi to get around this, but then you lose "walkable"), and there isn't a huge amount of capacity, and you have to deal with students and avoid student housing.

Great school system. Good parks. Lots of kids.

It's a fine place live. But it's a crappy place to relocate to: if your job starts to suck, or god forbid you lose it, where else are you going to work? The University, for 40% of your current salary?

When you're 20, this is not a big deal. You lose your job, you move somewhere else. When you're 30, you start wanting to own a home. If you have a mortgage, and you don't have a lot of cushion in your bank account (young people with houses often don't), you need 3-6 months warning to relocate.

If you have kids, regardless of whether you rent or own, moving is A Big Deal. I moved back to Chicago instead of NYC because I needed to commit to my family that I wasn't going to uproot them again.

Dilpil• 18 years ago

I live in Pittsburgh, which is dangerously close.

thorax• 18 years ago

I think the primary benefit, if you have a solid team, is the much-reduced cost of living possible in those areas. This is going to be a competitive advantage for small startups who increasingly are going to have to get profitable on their own.

tectonic• 18 years ago

http://www.startupwarrior.com can map some of the Middle America startups.

chops• 18 years ago

From Wisconsin. I colo my servers out of Chicago. Wisconsin (And indeed most of middle America) has a pretty cheap cost of living which allowed me to bootstrap my own startup. Living an hour from my servers for that once-every-few-months trip for hardware maintenance isn't really a problem.

Overall, it's quite pleasant, aside from Wisconsin being rather boring in the overall. I'd rather live in Chicago, but my wife's job is here. It's not an intellectual hot-spot or anything, but it's sufficient for running a business.

And it's a pretty peasant place to raise children whenever we decide to start squeezing a few out.

*The property taxes such HARD in Wisconsin (particularly the Milwaukee Area).

chairface• 18 years ago

Sounds like you must be in the Milwaukee area. The tech market there looks like a dream from where I am (live in Appleton, work in Green Bay). All a matter of perspective, I guess.

rw• 18 years ago

Southwestern Ohio. HN is a remarkable service for me.

silentbicycle• 18 years ago

I'm from the Grand Rapids, MI area, and develop for a small-ish company involved with the furniture industry (which is big, locally). There are a couple tech startups that have come out of here (but I don't particularly care about startups at the moment, so I can't name them offhand). The area seems to be culturally favorable toward startups in a way that e.g. the twin cities area supposedly isn't, though; there are some local businesses such as Amway that gently encourage an entrepreneurial outlook, and there has been a lot of money lately going into medical research / biotech stuff here. There are also several colleges in the area. The Ann Arbor area (East side of the state, by Detroit) might be good for startups, too.

This ask.metafilter post is about the Kalamazoo, MI area, which is about 50 miles South of here: http://ask.metafilter.com/105668/Growing-up-no-one-thinks-th... Much of it applies to Southwest Michigan in general. Not the greatest area tech-wise, but it's quite pretty if you're outdoorsy (particularly for fishing and kayaking - there are lakes and rivers all over), the farmer's markets are nice, housing / office space is is not terribly expensive, etc.

It's also an easy (and cheap!) train ride to Chicago from here, FWIW.

palish• 18 years ago

St Louis, MO

Well, sort of. I'm really in O'Fallon, MO, but STL isn't very far away.

LogicHoleFlaw• 18 years ago

Personally, I'm in Lake St. Louis MO and planning my escape.

tricky• 18 years ago

Des Peres... a suburb of St. Louis. The few people I knew who got VC ended up moving west. I hope Slicehost stays.

adammichaelc• 18 years ago

I'm a student at BYU in Provo, UT. There are a lot of good hackers out here, about half of the students stay after they graduate. There are lots of startups in the area, with top-rated universities around the state; and more VC's (http://vSpring.com, for 1 example) are being formed as the tech startup environment continues to mature

Provo is "the country's second largest software center," according to Kiplinger,featuring top employers Novell, Micron Technology and Omniture."

http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2008/05/2008-best...

Some of my friends work for http://EnticeLabs.com (a software startup in the HR space), http://InsideSales.com is out here, http://Omniture.com of course (founded by BYU students), and there's a growing list of tech bloggers to keep track of it all (http://connectblogs.com)

raheemm• 18 years ago

Why did you move to Indy?

On a separate note, I think hackers who make it big should try to go back to their small towns or non-silicon valley places, especially if it has a good university and try to sow the seeds so that that these other places become hacker friendly. I really admire that Italian guy behind Balsalmiq for going back to Italy and doing his thing. He is not that big yet, but hackers there have a reason to stick around and try to make it.

niels_olson• 18 years ago

Ignoring the first 14 years of life, I've lived in

1) Kansas City for high school

2) Annapolis for college

3) Rhode Island for six months

4) San Diego for four years

5) Annapolis for two and a half years

6) New Orleans for 5 weeks to start medical school

7a) Lived with my parents for one year in College Station, Texas after Katrina

7b) Attended classes in Houston for that year

8) Back to New Orleans with trips to San Antonio, Houston, College Station, Washington, DC, Norfolk, Virginia, and New Haven, Connecticut.

If I were going to move to one of those places for the purpose of starting a start up, first, I wouldn't. Second, I'd prioritize the list like so

1) College Station (couldn't study for all the people talking about setting up this or that, whether they had set up their S corp, when the fiber would be laid down, etc). These people are definitely still engineers.

2) San Diego

3) Washington, DC, including Annapolis (home of Wonkette)

4) New Haven (mainly due to proximity to both Boston and NY)

5) Norfolk, VA (lots of military contracts)

6) San Antonio

7) Rhode Island

8) Houston

9) Kansas City

10) New Orleans

Why is New Orleans last? I mean, I'm here, and clearly I've learned more about programming and system admin here than anywhere. I can't believe I'm saying it, but there really is an element of old world culture down here that I will miss when I leave. And it's sort of a city within a city: you meet the people you know all over the place. And really, I've learned more from the programmers I've met here than from anyone (except my brother, who lives in San Antonio). But there are two overwhelming factors working against ever trying to do a start up here: 1) Who would ever put a server in New Orleans? 2) Tulane dismissed their entire engineering college after the storm. No hacker I know is here because it's a good place for hacking. In some ways, it awesome. But there's virtually no one here. I think I've identified all the XOs in the city, and it adds up to about 6 (it was 5 until someone in Texas mailed me a spare).

Why would I rank Houston below San Antonio? Houston is much larger, 4th largest city in the US. Surely there is a greater absolute number of hackers in Houston. But having lived in Houston, you would be hard-pressed to get me to move back. It's so huge and spread out and the public transit system is so non-existent that you end up spending your life in a car. And I get the sense that most people would rather live in Austin or, if they want to stay close to the engineering, they go to College Station.

paul9290• 18 years ago

There are hackers by the ton here and no worries about where you live. You could find someone here and do a quick project together to see how it goes and take it from there!

It's cheaper to live out there then in San Fran, NYC or Boston.

Don't let location and the old adage of having to be in the valley stop you from innovating! IF you make something interesting or that has perceived value your work will get noticed!

herdrick• 18 years ago

I'm in Spokane, WA for a while and would like to meet up and talk startups. Anybody else here here?

centuren• 18 years ago

I went to school at Rose Hulman in Terre Haute, IN, where an impressive concentration of hackers attend. They've even got Rose Ventures (http://www.rhventures.org/), a start up friendly organization (using appropriately educated students as cheap labor for small companies).

avcetim• 18 years ago

Bought a company out of Purdue. Worked one year with it in West Lafayette. Moved to Palo Alto for 2.5 years. Moved back to Lafayette, IN. Opened office in Buenos Aires. Commuted there quarterly. Consulted for a venture firm in Ann Arbor. And in August I moved to Indianapolis. Why?

Because it is not about starting it or where you start it. Its about finishing. What do you need to finish? Does Indy have the resources available and accessible for budding entrepreneurs to close the loop on an idea and create a business?

I'm looking for help. Yes, I miss the hustle and bustle and wondering if every person at Starbucks in Palo Alto or Mt View just bagged $1 million from VC. But at the same time I know where I want to raise my family, where I want to vacation and where my access to top notch stable talen is - and that is Indianapolis.

I've built one company. Sold it. Working on another. Have a 9 to 5 that pays bills and pays health insurance, but my "idle" mind perpetuates. I need help - did I mention that?

Not sure where the next finish line is, but I'm willing to run the race with you.

ideas: manufacturing kanban software, logistically distribution AI, virtual pharmaceutical testing, quick hit web apps, SEO consulting, beer brewing (just seeing if you are still reading).

squirrellyj• 18 years ago

avcetim, you didn't happen to buy spare parts for manufacturing space shuttle heat panels? or maybe i'm thinking of something else.

anyway, i'm a grizzled 4.5 year indy tech veteran, work at software company that went from 70-400 in my tenure and an idea man. i'm seasoned working in a pressure cooker. interested in talking more if you are - looking to make a leap.

Ask HN: Any Hackers in Middle America?

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