Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/flight-cancellations-christmas-2022-winter-storm/index.html

by ipython • 4 years ago

161 110 4 years ago

It feels like SouthWest has been at the center of every scheduling disaster in the US over the past few years.

Even if it’s out of their control (many of the issues were within their control), it seems Southwest fails way worse than every other US airline.

miguelazo7• 4 years ago

That period also included a massive expansion of Southwest’s footprint— something like 18 cities. I fly a lot and never had much trouble with them until this last week. United and American have been far worse for me in terms of delays and cancellations, not to mention their disgruntled staffs.

midoridensha• 4 years ago

not to mention their disgruntled staffs.

Isn't this just normal for all American customer-service people? I guess it's relative though.

giantrobot• 4 years ago

I've flown Southwest dozens of times. While I like their lower costs it's pretty easy to see where they are cutting costs with operations. In "normal" conditions their cost cutting is just functional. In any sort of exceptional situation their entire system fall apart.

miguelazo7• 4 years ago

On what other occasion has their entire system fallen apart? Most every other passenger I encountered during this debacle said something to the effect of “this never happens on Southwest”. I do agree that they’ve been squeezing the system (especially labor) the last few years during their covid expansion, however. This weather was apparently the final straw.

morganw• 4 years ago

This one affected a lot of people traveling to the 2021 US Grand Prix in Austin & it supposedly didn't affect Southwest [my Alaska flight was cancelled after four hours of "any minute now"]:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/airline-news/2021/10/2...

kayfox• 4 years ago

Southwest flies all the flights it markets, they do not contract regional carriers for any flights like all of the airlines SkyWest is contracted by.

Regional carriers typically operate smaller aircraft with less senior crew and sorta serve to expand the mainline carriers markets and also often serve to feed the mainline carriers experienced pilots for their mainline aircraft.

samename• 4 years ago

I have a Southwest flight on Friday I am now very nervous about. For the first time ever I bought a fully refundable flight as a backup option through American Airlines. Looks like Southwest might allow free cancellations too so I might ditch that flight entirely to avoid undue travel headaches. Either way, I don’t ever remember a worst traveling season than this.

TedDoesntTalk• 4 years ago

I don’t ever remember a worst traveling season than this

Even during COVID?

TylerE• 4 years ago

Probably not, as passenger volumes were a fraction of normal.

silisili• 4 years ago

Pre COVID and especially during COVID wasn't bad, as long as you didn't mind wearing a mask.

Post COVID you have everyone and their mom trying to make up for 2 years of missed vacations and being stuck at home. And they're angry as hell - the post COVID population seems wreckless and short fused, for reasons I don't exactly know.

miguelazo7• 4 years ago

Southwest has always allowed free cancellations, up to 10 minutes before boarding— that was one of its main selling points. You (normally) get the money as flight credit, however.

thrtythreeforty• 4 years ago

An expiring flight credit, which is perhaps less desirable than the cash you paid.

A few months ago, they monkeyed with our departure time, and we correctly concluded that it would end up missing the connecting flight. The booking agent couldn't give us anything but time-bomb vouchers, but I got cash by emailing customer support. I used the federal wording for "elected not to travel" and "substantially different itinerary," which may have helped me not have any issues.

harrisonjackson• 4 years ago

The right credit card, if you have one or can get one, usually includes "insurance" for travel delays, lost luggage, cancellations etc. I always forget about the benefits other than "points" but there are some great ones.

Recently, I was glad I used the right card to book an airbnb which we had to cancel day of check-in. Full refund on a non-refundable airbnb.

alexeichemenda• 4 years ago

What CC is that?

tareqak2• 4 years ago

From the article:

If you've been left in the lurch and your efforts to reach a customer service agent are going nowhere, the founder of Scott's Cheap Flights suggests trying an international number.
"The main hotline for US airlines will be clogged with other passengers getting rebooked. To get through to an agent quickly, call any one of the airline's dozens of international offices" Scott Keyes said.
"Agents can handle your reservation just like US-based ones can, but there's virtually no wait to get through."

IG_Semmelweiss• 4 years ago

this is good advice, let me extrapolate to a simpler heuristic.

When landing at an airport when you know several connections are lost due to local issue with your airline, always get on the phone as soon as you get out of the aircraft. certainly call before heading to the kiosk and lining up for the lone agent to support you

Because, by the time the sole agent gets to listen to your issue, the next flight will be fully booked, and your hopes of getting out quickly will be gone.

ipython4• 4 years ago

Better yet use the in-app or website self service functions to rebook yourself without waiting to talk to anyone. It is truly a race to grab the remaining seats on the next few flights.

logifail3• 4 years ago

Bear in mind that many airlines allow ticketing staff at the airport (that is if they didn't get rid of them all, yes, I'm looking at you, British Airways at LHR) much more leeway in terms of rerouting, particularly on other routes or indeed carriers.

We had this on 25 December, our flight to London was cancelled. Automatically rebooked to our destination later that day, but our party (2 adults, 3 kids) was split up across two separate flights several hours apart.

Of course I had already phoned in even before we got the rebooking. email, airline phone agent said that's what they have, both of those flights now full so no chance of getting us all together. Asked about other departure points, told no.

Queued at ticketing desk for 45 mins, asked to be reunited on flight to the same destination but from a different departure airport, 2h away, agent did it immediately, checked us in and handed over the new boarding passes.

Don't underestimate just how much changes when the tickets move to airport control at T-24h

ggm• 4 years ago

https://old.reddit.com/r/SouthwestAirlines/comments/zw32yt/p...

(From another HN posting at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34145303)

lucb1e• 4 years ago

Title: "PSA from a SWA employee since the company won’t give any info" to give some idea of what you're clicking on

Sakos• 4 years ago

If you are able to find alternative transportation to your final destination- DO IT. Another airline, bus, train, Lyft, rental car, ANYTHING. Southwest WILL NOT be able to get you to your destination anytime in the next few days.

That's damning.

itsdrewmiller• 4 years ago

Now deleted but here's the archive - https://archive.vn/xo5Da#selection-1521.0-1550.0

m348e9122• 4 years ago

There's an unsubstantiated rumor that 120 Southwest ramp agents walked off the job at Denver International Airport after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime.

https://twitter.com/AtSouthwest/status/1606543397996855296

If true, it could account for a majority of SW's cancellations over the past few days and it could continue for the foreseeable future.

miguelazo7• 4 years ago

I wouldn’t doubt this, although a friend stuck at Denver yesterday told me he ran into a Southwest employee who couldn’t figure out where he was supposed to be for hours. WSJ mentioned it could be due to their call-in scheduling system being totally overwhelmed.

yellow_lead2• 4 years ago

It's crazy that airlines can't keep their internal tools working.

cokeandpepsi• 4 years ago

Yep, I'm never flying southwest again

jsf01• 4 years ago

Understandable but on the flip side, the backlash from this may result in them being one of the best airlines to fly in the near future.

m-ee2• 4 years ago

I don’t know about majority. Looking at pilot forums their scheduling system seems to be in complete disarray. Hours long wait times to get through on the phone, no awareness of where crews are even located.

symlinkk• 4 years ago

What forums?

ars3• 4 years ago

You have cause and effect backwards.

That memo appears to be issued as a result of all the flight problems. And it says it's a temporary emergency policy due to the current trouble they are having.

tareqak2• 4 years ago

The memo is dated December 21, 2022 and today is December 27, 2022.

I don’t remember if the North American winter storms started before December 21, on that day, or after.

m348e9122• 4 years ago

Here's what I think happened. Storm happens, Southwest demands all hands on deck with stipulations outlined in that memo, staff gets upset and walk off making the situation worse. The only evidence I have is that Southwest seems to be uniquely impacted by the storm

AdmiralAsshat• 4 years ago

Currently at another airport waiting to fly into DFW, and this is the current word among the airport crew as well: that Southwest is uniquely impacted right now because a bunch of the Southwest staff at Dallas just quit.

jacquesm• 4 years ago

Oh that sucks. How is the weather there, is the distance such that you can rent a car or have some other means of transportation? Not a good time of the year to be stuck.

akiselev2• 4 years ago

after the VP of operations out of Dallas sent a demanding (and possibly unreasonable) memo to the Denver staff banning sick time without a doctors note and requiring mandatory overtime

IANAL but that’s not just unreasonable, it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws. Southwest can only ask their employees for a doctor’s note after four consecutive days of absence and that’s according to a post-COVID law.

I’m not sure about the mandatory overtime but that’s probably governed by a union contract (4/5ths of SW is unionized). Evidence shows that this ~moron~ VP didn’t know the specifics of the former so he probably fucked up the latter too.

I’m guessing Denver employees aren’t the only ones to walk out. Union solidarity, baby!

Semaphor7• 4 years ago

it’s downright illegal according to Colorado labor laws.

Interesting, that's the first time I hear of a US law being better for employee protection than here in Germany. Do they have limited sick days? That could explain it, as they are obviously unlimited here, but doctor's notes are commonly required after 0-1 days.

ryandrake• 4 years ago

If they're unionized, why don't they all walk out now, in solidarity after a memo like that? I mean, it's the perfect time--You can practically see management's desperation leaping out of the screen. WTF is with that? Speak a magical incantation and suddenly labor rules don't matter? "I declare Double Secret Operation Emergency! Due to the emergency that we caused and we magically invoked, here's how we're going to beat you..."

rhcom2• 4 years ago

Looks like confirmed true by Southwest PR. https://kdvr.com/news/local/southwest-airlines-declares-a-st...

variant• 4 years ago

Not quite.

The emergency procedures were likely put in place due to crew resourcing issues that were fallout from the storms. These procedures require more stringent review of sick requests to ensure all hands are on deck and are probably allowed by negotiated union contracts.

I'm skeptical of this walkout rumor.

amluto• 4 years ago

Oof. At the very least, any employer requiring a doctor’s note should pay for it. Getting in to see a doctor on short notice can be difficult and expensive.

hotpotamus2• 4 years ago

I have a friend who's worked a series of crappy jobs that don't have health insurance and asks for doctor's notes when he's sick. So he provides doctor's notes by just printing them out himself.

ipython4• 4 years ago

Found this interesting reading as to a possible reason why their flight system seems so much more fragile than the legacy carriers: https://www.inc.com/kelly-main/southwest-becomes-one-of-amer...

bombcar3• 4 years ago

It sounds reasonable but I’m surprised that it’s not “cost efficient” to have a few sore planes and crews strategically located around the USA - you’d only need three or four to be able to respond within hours to any scheduling mishap. Margins must be quite low.

nikanj• 4 years ago

The stock marget rewards profits, not happy customers. It’s not about the margins, it’s about maximizing the bottom line

ralph84• 4 years ago

Yes margins on the core flying are pathetically low. Planes are $50 million+ pieces of capital equipment and high utilization is the only way to make the numbers work. Southwest is legendary for their quick turns which keep utilization high. It's just not as resilient during irregular operations.

hotpotamus2• 4 years ago

I remember reading years ago that Fedex actually kept one or two spare planes in the air every night to respond to breakdowns.

woodruffw• 4 years ago

Extreme nitpick on my part: Southwest isn't actually a legacy carrier: they were one of the first "low-cost" carriers to begin interstate travel after the airlines were deregulated in 1978. The only remaining legacy carriers in the US are Delta, American, United, Hawaiian, and Alaska.

ipython4• 4 years ago

Sorry I wasn’t clear- you’re correct. I didn’t intend to imply southwest is one of the legacy carriers. I edited my original post.

markus92• 4 years ago

Ryanair in Europe pretty much operates the same with many small hubs and point-to-point flights, but for some reason they are also run objectively a very reliable operation. Wonder why that is.

atdrummond4• 4 years ago

RyanAir does a lot of point to point but they don’t do it the way WN does. RyanAir will have a plane make multiple runs on say, London to Rome. WN will work a plane from Oakland to Denver to Dallas to Florida (I’m just picking WN concentration cities, that’s not a real route). In fact, something crazy like 30% of WN planes will hit Florida daily.

neilv• 4 years ago

I hope everyone finds ways to get home during the holiday break without too much discomfort. And try to stay safe wrt Covid.

acwan93• 4 years ago

Slight tangent on this and something I've always wondered: if something as basic yet extremely crucial as scheduling software is outdated (SWA might very well be on a mainframe or transmitting CSV files in an FTP server and that server could've acted up), how on earth are they expected to scale and adopt new tech? It seems like a ticking time bomb and gross mismanagement.

Fortunately I'm not flying this week, but I've already seen and experienced numerous meltdowns from SWA in the past. If this doesn't signal a wake-up call to invest in tech infrastructure for any company I don't know what else will.

Throw10987• 4 years ago

There are a multitude of different ways to bridge from mainframe (IBM Websphere MQ/Host integration server) systems or to make file based systems look mostly online (small, frequent batch files). So technically it is possible and done pretty reliablly for banks and the like.

Extending use cases to cover behaviours that were not covered by the original software is where things get exciting. You will end up with a hodge podge of systems & processes that try to implement multi-step work flows and deal with failures through manual or equally complex automated methods to compensate.

Generally most industries are pretty terrible at evolving the solutions they have or completely replacing them. So you will see a multi-generational set of systems that are in place to provide an acceptably current set of behaviours.

This situation can arise due to varying commercial pressures, however Developer and Engineer's inability to communicate what the system currently does and what is easy and hard to change in no small way contributes to following paths that result in poor system outcomes over the lifetimeof systems.

etchalon• 4 years ago

Southwest is one of the few airlines that has non-stops from AUS and Chicago and Kansas City, so I fly them almost exclusively. In general, I'm always impressed with how well everything is run, and how professional and friendly their crew are.

labster• 4 years ago

Southwest tries to send more flights per day by reducing time at the gate. Most of the time it’s great, since it means cheaper flights and less time as a passenger waiting around for folks to find their seat number. They have lots of hubs, so it’s easy to find a flight that fits your needs.

But when things go wrong en masse, error propagates through the system fast. It’s the same failure mode as just-in-time manufacturing. There just aren’t gaps in the schedule for lots of things to go wrong, nor extra planes to pick up the slack. I’d recommend Southwest still, but not if your schedule is tight and the flight is can’t-miss.

I suspect there are some other problems in their tech stack and personnel they have to sort out too.

cjekel2• 4 years ago

Was just at the airport. Waited 2.5 hours in line to be told that ticketing will show up tomorrow at 7 am. Then went home and was on hold for 4 hours. You are lucky if you call and don't get a busy tone.

But my story isn't bad. Hearing other people's story at the airport in line was shocking. Family with kids stuck in connections for days. No hotels, little food, crowded lines. Bags? Somewhere in the country.

ivraatiems2• 4 years ago

I was impacted by this. I had three flights canceled in four days. My bags are still somewhere in Denver. I ended up rebooking on American. I'm certainly going to try to make Southwest pay for it, once their phone lines clear up.

Southwest is going to need to go above and beyond to fix this or they're done in my book. I will choose a more expensive option over them. I'll choose a less direct route. This Russian Roulette but every chamber's loaded game has been an enormous, stressful waste of time.

None of the hacks suggested here work when the customer service phone line is down, the website doesn't work, and every other flight is cancelled or full.

cjekel2• 4 years ago

I hope your damages are minimal.

What would it take for southwest to remedy the station for you?

I know it's hard to say. You may never get your bags.

I'm basically valuing any future southwest credit as $0. All of my air miles at $0 too :(

ivraatiems2• 4 years ago

It's a fair question.

I think I'd want the following:

All my property restored as it was (whether physically or through paying for replacement costs). Full reimbursement for replacement flights, clothes, rental cars, gas, food, and other expenses incurred due to their negligence. Some kind of additional multiplier on top of that as an apology for the stress inflicted.

On my American flight tonight I added up just the total I've paid to fix Southwest's screwup, and it's already almost $1k before my luggage and not counting the refunded cost of my trip. My baggage foolishly contained at least one article of clothing which is genuinely irreplaceable. I don't know how I'd calculate the cost of that.

So we're looking at two or three grand of compensation before I ever even consider being a customer again.

I'm probably not worth it.

microtherion• 4 years ago

You may never get your bags.

This year, I've had a perfect record: 3 air trips, and my luggage got lost on all 3. And yet every single bag got delivered eventually.

If you think about it, it's a matter of geometry: Airports don't have infinite storage space, so much as they'd like to lose luggage permanently, airlines have to deliver it to customers to make room for new lost luggage. And as bad as most carriers are, they wont resort to outright wanton destruction of luggage.

topkai22• 4 years ago

I’m seriously wondering about Southwest’s software systems at the moment. I was traveling with a youth sports team on American early this month. We had a flight cancellation that resulted in about 30 people needing to find new flights. You just popped open the app or website and were given multiple options to rebook.

My brother had a flight canceled on southwest Thursday night. It was completely impossible to rebook or even cancel on their website at that point. The phone and physical lines were impossible, so we just booked a new flight for the following day in order to get him home for Christmas, it wasn’t even much more than his original flight. The next day his original reservation was “automatically rebooked” on a flight for Christmas morning. He kept the new booking and didn’t cancel the rebooked leg till he was wheels up. Craziest thing was the flight wasn’t full. He got an entire row to himself.

The fact that southwest doesn’t seem to have the ability to let customers self rebook in situations like this seems to be a major IT/software failing.

imroot• 4 years ago

I don't work for Southwest, but, I have friends that do.

The situation is kind of amplified by the fact that they are now doing crew scheduling by hand -- their crew scheduling system went offline at some point during this fiasco -- and because they aren't a hub and spoke style of airline, they don't have flight attendants at their hubs...so, what's happening is that flight attendants are scheduled for a "leg" of a trip, from Altoona to Boston to Columbus to Dallas to Edison. This flight attendant will be on that plane from Altoona until they wrap up in Edison. Because of this interruption, they cancel the flight from Altoona to Boston. Now, they need to find a plane (and a crew) in Boston to fly the leg from Boston to Columbus...cascading failures throughout their system. Add in phone system failures, a winter storm, and the busiest travel week of the year, and you've got what Southwest has right now.

You have crew timing out, crews that are abandoned at stations, and some folks telling people to not expect their luggage for 30+ days. Southwest has also been delaying negotiating with their ground crew (it's been three+ years since they've had a contract), so, I'm almost certain that when they got the Denver "Operational Emergency" email on the 21st, most of them said screw it and quit: every other airline has struggled to hire experienced folks and my guess is that it won't be long until they're re-employed somewhere else

They've cancelled most flights until Friday, with the exception being flight for aircraft staging, and will struggle to find open seats for their flight attendants to ride on other airlines (even if they are flying space-positive) just so they can have crew at locations for flights.

rapjr9• 4 years ago

This does not sound unique to Southwest, I imagine all airlines have to do this to get people staged in the right places. Which means our air travel system is basically a just-in-time system and as we've learned JIT systems break quickly when there are shortages. Software problems and a lack of schedulers may be contributing to this event, but it seems like it could happen to any airline and is something of an infrastructure weakness in global transport. In fact, airlines might sometimes book flights for pilots and attendents on competitors planes, which may mean the lack of flights by Southwest could affect other airlines placement of personnel, so there may be some contagion risk.

atdrummond4• 4 years ago

It’s much easier to reflow assets where you need them in a hub and spoke system.

Since WN operates a linear modal across the US, they have to essentially reset the entire network state to get flights back to normal. Hence cancelling 2/3 of flights for the remainder of the week.

atdrummond4• 4 years ago

If you can get through to WN support, select 2 for Spanish speaking agents. You’ll cut 80% off your wait time and they’re bilingual.

Massive Southwest Airlines disruption leaves customers stranded

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