Commission proposes to accelerate the rollout of instant payments in euro

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_22_6272

by rocketbop • 4 years ago

98 148 4 years ago

ec.europa.eu

akie• 4 years ago

Obviously a good idea that should be implemented immediately.

rieTohgh6• 4 years ago

Are you sure it should implemented immediately?

with an obligation on providers to verify the match between the bank account number (IBAN) and the name of the beneficiary provided by the payer

This will break a lot of payment flows, currently that verification is rarely enforced. For example I have saved "power company" as receiver's name, the transfers still work since everything besides IBAN is ignored.

hocuspocus6• 4 years ago

Well, this has to come at some point.

Right now the receiving bank can silently start being compliant overnight and you won't know. If there's some official deadline, this gives the opportunity to warn all parties beforehand.

DocTomoe5• 4 years ago

Yours may be an extreme example, but verification may be a hard to solve problem once account holder names become too long or have funky characters in it (as is often the case in the EU). For instance, my electricity provider is the

EnBW Energie Baden-Württemberg AG

Yes, EnBW, the shorthand for the name, is PART of the official name, yes, that is an Umlaut, and yes, the name is too long to fit into the standard account holder field of a SEPA transfer. So I send my electricity money to the "EnBW AG", which always worked, but is technically wrong (and technically, there is no obvious "real" solution, because their letterhead and their prefilled paper slips all use the full name, which - again - uses a too long, incorrectly-alphabeticized variant.

Now, for some extra fun, what about legal forms that have a & (illegal character) in it? Kombine GmbH & Co. KG cannot be addressed, but is a valid name.

And how do you teach an 80 year old grandmother - who up to now keeps filling out paper forms - to do this correctly on a screen the sized half a postcard wide?

bo0tzz• 4 years ago

The way my banking app handles that is by displaying a warning: "You entered <foo> but this IBAN is associated with the name <bar>. Do you want to use that instead?" I think that works pretty well.

hoffs3• 4 years ago

Confirmation of payee is nothing new

MichaelZuo3• 4 years ago

Interestingly, the claim that: "there is no reason why many citizens and businesses in the EU are not able to send and receive money immediately" is made on the record by the responsible official, Mairead McGuinness, Commissioner for financial services, financial stability and Capital Markets Union.

Which seems incorrect as 10 second payments EU-wide obviously require universal adoption of updated IT systems and more stringent control to guarantee that 10 second deadline.

The increased costs will inevitably have to be paid for somehow, likely via incereased fees.

newaccount745• 4 years ago

The tech for instant tranfers is already there, they just charge ridiculous amounts for it.

Eg. my bank charges 7€ for an instant transfer, slow transfers are free. This proposal would make all transfers free and instant.

drooopy• 4 years ago

One of my banks in Portugal charges €1,7 flat for any instant transfer also. It's infuriating to know that the tech is there but banks are just being banks.

MichaelZuo3• 4 years ago

It's impossible to make anything free. The likely outcome is the costs will be moved around so that its paid indirectly.

radicalbyte• 4 years ago

Free transfers within some countries are usually instant. That needs to change into always instant and then cross border.

The situation is comparable to mobiles in a decade - it's a profit center for banks, the systems are there but they make more money by getting in the way. So the EU need to step in and regulate this market failure.

louhike• 4 years ago

My bank (Boursorama) does free instant transfers, so it’s definitely viable for banks.

AnssiH• 4 years ago

Depends on the bank. My bank processes regular free bank transfers as instant if supported by the destination bank.

tpm• 4 years ago

Many banks already provide such possibility within their ecosystem for free. Additionally the faster SEPA payments are already mostly available, but expensive. So all the bits are already there, what is missing is the will of the banks. The situation is similar to the phone roaming fees, where heavy regulatory action was needed to provide best value for customers.

petesergeant• 4 years ago

Which seems incorrect as 10 second payments EU-wide obviously require universal adoption of updated IT systems and more stringent control to guarantee that 10 second deadline.

Plenty of other governments have done that essentially by threat or mandate though? UK has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster_Payments and Thailand has https://www.bangkokbank.com/en/Personal/Digital-Banking/Prom... -- I don't remember my fees going up in either country

tremon• 4 years ago

I think the parent's point is that it may be relatively simple to implement for national transfers, but it seems the EU is mandating it for international transfers too (namely, within the entire Euro-zone).

dathinab2• 4 years ago

Most banks in the EU already have such payment systems, which is part why the EU moves things ahead I think.

newaccount745• 4 years ago

This will be huge. This will allow anyone to accept digital payments, eg. at a farmers market, using the bank accounts everyone already has.

The only thing missing is forcing banks to provide an API for third party integrations, but I think there is a separate proposal on the way for that.

Imagine being able to accept instant payments from everyone in the EU, without having to sign up for a service like Stripe or Paypal, just using a normal bank account from any of hundreds (thousands?) of banks in the EU. And your customers don't even need a credit card, just the banking app they already use every day.

tluyben2• 4 years ago

Practically this is already the case in many countries; NL to my Revolut or PT accounts is seconds, vice versa too. It works well. But it is not guaranteed. Api would be good; I can imagine visa and mastercard are getting a little bit panicked as this is already trivial and I am using my phone for payments anyway (no idea where my card is) (but still use them of course via NFC).

prvit4• 4 years ago

It’ll be trivial if Apple implements it.

Europeans? They’ll figure out a way to require chipTAN and SMS confirmation for POS transactions.

hoffs3• 4 years ago

Sure, there are countless of apps that can do instant transfers. The issue here is that sepa instant rollout has been taking way too long and this would force it to actually be required. It's a breeze having able to transfer money between banks any time of day in a few seconds.

ulfw• 4 years ago

Hong Kong's Faster Payment System (FPS) is like that. You can even use phone number or email instead of account number (or QR code). Very practical. Money moves instantaneously free of charge.

[1] https://fps.hkicl.com.hk/eng/fps/index.php [2] https://www.hsbc.com.hk/campaigns/fps/

Symbiote• 4 years ago

Several EU countries have similar national systems.

This is about making all that work with Euro accounts from different countries.

ajsnigrutin5• 4 years ago

On the other hand, this is another step towards cashless society, where every transaction is tracked by the government.

qngcdvy• 4 years ago

As much as the tracking I fear the access control.

Made some stupid comment online while being drunk? We take your ability to by transportation passes/plane tickets...

IIRC this is already happening in China.

f6v3• 4 years ago

I don’t see an issue. The government already knows how much I earn, where I live, etc.

seydor• 4 years ago

No, it is going from "being tracked by <website>, Stripe, their analytics partners, the bank, mastercard/visa, the NSA, [...]" to being tracked by the website and the banks. EU banks already have the infrastructure for instant payments, so this should be a non brainer

I don't see why transactions that use cash today, wont use cash tomorrow

pif• 4 years ago

Not tracked: just trackable.

CoUHKT57BSe7• 4 years ago

Doubt it will be huge, we are constantly being told not to give out our bank details as scammers want them, now you think it'll be great if we just give out our bank details to every stranger we meet at the market. This will be great, for sending/receiving money but is hardly a replacement for card payments.

aitchnyu• 4 years ago

Indian UPI apps allow you to type phone number or find contact sender and receiver uses same app, or phonenum@bankname or user@bankname ids with equivalent QR codes or one time QR codes with amount. Money is routed to/from multiple bank accounts.

em5004• 4 years ago

1. Europeans are not "constantly being told not to give out our bank details". That's an American thing, apparently due to a quirk that allows anyone with a US bank account number to draw money from that account. Euro banks certainly don't work that way. Having a Euro bank account number only allows people to transfer to, not from that account.

2. Why do you believe that an instant payment system requires us to "give out our bank details to every stranger we meet at the market" when numerous countries have already implemented such systems that don't require that?

samjmck3• 4 years ago

Which country do you live in? I’m from Belgium and I’ve never heard that before.

rjzzleep• 4 years ago

This isn't new. A few years ago a few countries (Germany being one of them) asked for an extension on having to implement instant transactions. Some German banks actually charge more for the instant bank transfers.

This is just the EU commission pushing for this game that they themselves started to end.

DocTomoe5• 4 years ago

I feel this is too little, too late. People who would use this already have started using Credit/debit cards (instead of local systems). Bank account numbers are not easy to transmit (sure, we could do this via QR code, but that's a new piece of technology people would have to learn how to use). The internet has happened, and it works on credit card-style numbers.

Banks had a chance to introduce this ten years ago - but back then, they were greedy and wanted to keep money in limbo, most likely to have an advantage in taking interest. By now, the market has other, more internationally accepted modes of payment.

samjmck3• 4 years ago

By now, the market has other, more internationally accepted modes of payment.

Hundreds of millions of citizens gain access to instant payments through SEPA. It’s already compatible with the existing banking system Europeans are already used to, i.e. share an IBAN with someone and share money. Which other cheap instant payment methods are there that are available to so many people?

manholio• 4 years ago

The internet has happened, and it works on credit card-style numbers.

and that's a usability disaster. the entire experience is atrocious, you have to enter and secure multiple pieces of numeric data.

it's a system begging to be disrupted.

pjc50• 4 years ago

The overhead of card processors, while capped by law in the EU, is not zero, and not everybody can easily set up to receive payments. Various countries have systems like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vipps which reduce the friction yet further.

pier25• 4 years ago

This is commonplace in Mexico already.

My regular taco place here only accepts cash or bank transfers, no cards.

rgllm• 4 years ago

Banks in EU are already obligated to provide an API for third party integrations.

fasteo• 4 years ago

>> The only thing missing is forcing banks to provide an API for third party integrations

I believe they have to provide this API to comply with the PSD2 directive. Namely, they have to open the bank to TPPs (Third Party Payment Service Providers)

thefounder2• 4 years ago

I wonder why are not the "slow" methods banned.

hocuspocus6• 4 years ago

If I wire 200k I honestly don't care if it takes a few hours (nowadays, old-school SEPA transfers don't necessarily take more) and happens only during business days/hours. It gives everyone more room to cancel if you fucked up.

prvit4• 4 years ago

If I wire 200k to buy a car, I want that money to arrive instantly. I certainly do not want to spend hours at some parking lot waiting for the money to arrive, I want to sign the papers right there and then and take the car with me.

No fucking way I’m gonna leave some random with both the car and my 200k. So instead of sending a bank transfer, I still have to show up with a big bag of cash in 2022.

The amounts where multi-hour transaction times are consistently acceptable will be significantly higher, 200k is still well within normal everyday p2p transactions.

nraynaud• 4 years ago

In France we have a different tool called "bank check" which is basically a non-bounceable check coming from the bank's books (and the bank blocks the money on your account of course).

It's mostly useless I think because when you close on a house your notary is doing an escrow service, and I paid my house by bank transfert to my own notary (couldn't do it online, and their weird bank doesn't support receiving instant transferts).

thefounder2• 4 years ago

You could schedule the transfer if you are "undecided". Why would you want to rely on unknown bank timmings?

hardware2win• 4 years ago

Will it be like Polish BLIK?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik

Instant payments

Money transfers over phone number

2 minutes payment codes that you type on e.g website and accept payment in app

Shopping example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBw1qa07gGU

Stats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDI4R94ZLvM

Goz3rr2• 4 years ago

It's basically a SEPA transfer as they already exist, except instant. I'm not sure how Poland would fit into this exactly as the press release specifically mentions payments in euro, not zloty.

Dutch banks have supported instant payments for a couple of years now, and the way person to person payments are most often done is through something called a "Tikkie" which involves sending someone a payment URL (via any messaging platform or a QR code) which then opens their own banking app on their phone.

dathinab2• 4 years ago

Probably, a lot of banks in the EU have one or another instant payment system.

And many have somewhat adept ways to convenient setup bank transfer between two people (e.g. through an qr code), standardizing this would be a much bigger improvement then just standardizing the first part.

hoffs3• 4 years ago

Sepa instant already exists, this addresses the fact that banks and institutions are taking way too long to support.

fy20• 4 years ago

I guess the idea is to have a unified system throughout the EU, so if you are from Germany and you are on holiday in Portugal, you can still do instant transfers to pay in shops.

yrgulation2• 4 years ago

Sounds a lot like ING payments in Romania - takes seconds to transfer money in accounts at the same bank, and all you need is a phone number, or a qr code. Transferring to other banks takes a few hours and my understanding is that its getting faster.

lou1306• 4 years ago

Similar systems exist also in France (Paylib) and Sweden (Swish). Swish is embarassignly popular and also accepted in many shops. Making them compatible EU-wide seems like the logical next step.

hocuspocus6• 4 years ago

https://empsa.org

robin_reala• 4 years ago

There’s already an industry group doing that: EMPSA (European Mobile Payment Systems Association) https://empsa.org/

0x_rs• 4 years ago

I've read a lot of praise for India's IMPS. In a digitalized world with widespread usage of mobile devices universal instantaneous intra-bank payments are an obvious step forward. It'd be great if this could in some way remove the dependency on the payment processors duopoly while keeping fees low or non-existent (at the moment, depending on your gateway, instant SEPAs have a few euros fees) and decreasing friction as the proposal says, let alone the security implications. Merchants would also be more willing to adopt these technologies in less developed areas.

neel8986• 4 years ago

Instant payment in India (UPI) has been revolutionary. Last month 6.7 billion transaction took place amounting to $138B!! https://www.npci.org.in/what-we-do/upi/product-statistics Every major company tech company ( Google, meta, amazon, flipkart ) wants to be a part of it. This can be a huge opportunity for European startups

tweaktastic• 4 years ago

I can't express in words the amount of push UPI has provided in India for the digital payments sector. Any shop I have visited in the past year has a QR code on the Front counter. And I am not talking about big shops. I am talking about Hawkers, street vendors, Brick and Mortar shops, roadside Dhabas, Mechanics.

UPI is a gamechanger.

yrgulation2• 4 years ago

Depending on banks and countries instant payments have been a thing for a long time in “Europe” (assumed to mean EU and satellites). The question here is about taking things to the next level for international payments (these countries are sovereign and have their own policies, the eu wants to ensure uniformity). So this is not comparable to what india does within its own borders.

boruto• 4 years ago

Depending on banks and countries instant payments have been a thing for a long time

Like how?

Mandatory implementation of accepting SEPA instant directive to banks was like 2-3 years ago. Afaik there was no instant payment within most of the major economies, case Germany. Banking outside UK in europe is still a pain for business and consumer.

EU commission would want consistency, but nothing was stopping Bundesbank from innovating.

LargoLasskhyfv3• 4 years ago

Hrr Hrr. Meanwhile, Deutsche Postbank ATM (because Cashgroup), 3rd time in a row of three months, at the beginning of a month in the late evening: This Service is currently not available. In different locations. Deutsche Bank has no open ATM locations at late evening or night anymore. While Shell does it. They make cash suck more and more. Grr!

AlbertoGP2• 4 years ago

Same here (Saarland): tried finding an ATM, went to two different places, both were out of order in the same day!

LargoLasskhyfv3• 4 years ago

Do you know https://www.cashgroup.de/ btw.?

This map is my pet peeve. Because after you've entered your PLZ/Zip or address, it doesn't even show all ATMs. You have to 'wiggle' the map a little, then others pop up. And depending on how you zoom in, they disappear again. Have to 're-wiggle' carefully. If you pan far, it takes time for the ATMs in that area to pop up, if at all. Again, 'wiggling' is needed.

And it still doesn't show one who I pass by often, know it's in operation, but is useless anyways, because: Dieser Service ist derzeit nicht verfügbar.

ARRGH! Trashgroup!

Edit: On FF with uBo off btw., just to be sure.

Edit: Can't get over it. There is one Bank next to my now closed Bank which had an ATM, which now has a sign to use the next one from Postbank, which doesn't even show up on their map, and which gives you the No Service message regardless.

mig392• 4 years ago

We have Interac e-mail and SMS transfers in Canada.

No need to give out bank details. Just give someone your e-mail or phone number and they can send you money via their bank app. They don't even need to know which bank you use.

koblas3• 4 years ago

Interac is a network by the bank cartel in Canada, not run by the government. Payments Canada is working on Real-Time Rail as a payment system that is independent from the banks. For example if you send funds to your brokerage they take 24+ hours to arrive, with Real-Time they'll arrive in a minute.

yohannparis3• 4 years ago

Interac transfer is a nightmare to use.

I want to send money or request money from someone?

  1. Ask for their info (e-mail or phone number)
  2. Login to my banking service (web or app)
  3. Create a new contact with 1.
  4. If they did not setup auto-deposit: setup a security question
  5. Send/Request money (+ security question, if needed)
  6. Wait few seconds~minutes for an email/SMS
  7. If you did not setup auto-deposit: Click on link provided to open 2.

Really...

mig392• 4 years ago

I didn't really see any of those steps as a nightmare :-)

But perhaps we have a different level of tolerance. For me, it's convenient.

lizardactivist• 4 years ago

Good. And cut out the US American payment giants as soon as possible. Allowing them to control such a large amount of inter-EU payments is a huge security risk.

Every country, or union of countries, should be in full control over its payment services and infrastructure.

Am4TIfIsER0ppos• 4 years ago

Blank without javascript? I can't believe my taxes are stolen to pay for this level of incompetence in serving a static document.

https://archive.ph/mP9Bb

Instant payments in euro? It's called cash you fucking authoritarians! It is never "locked in transit in the financial system" and can be instantly "consumed" and "invested" by the receiving party.

while preserving the effectiveness of screening of persons that are subject to EU sanctions, through a procedure whereby payment service providers will verify at least daily their clients against EU sanctions lists
in full conformity with existing rules on sanctions and fighting financial crime

The real reason: to have government approve every transaction. Sure they mean russians now but it will expand. We've seen the massive overreach of government force the past 2 years to keep people confined in their homes. Too critical of government? Sanctioned. Bought too many calories? Sanctioned. Bought too many joules of energy? Sanctioned.

noobermin• 4 years ago

Singapore has something similar with paynow and friends, literally instant payments in seconds and all you need is the person's cell phone number. It really is something different, but SG is just a city. Having such a system over the whole eurozone would be quite something.

greatgib• 4 years ago

Also, Something to take into account is that, most of the time, delays in wire transfers are due to bank compliance checks imposed by states! (In addition with bank usual incompétences)

okokwhatever• 4 years ago

At least EU working to give bitcoin the hype! Thanks EU!

arlattimore• 4 years ago

Australia did a strategic review of payments in 2012, one of the findings was they needed instant payments - it was rolled out in 2018. The days of waiting days and days for money to transfer between banks/accounts/etc are a thing of the past and it is great. Great to see the same sort of capabilities coming to the EU!

legulere• 4 years ago

Wire transfers already have a maximum limit of one day inside the EU, so at least you don’t have to wait days and days.

Instant payments have the advantage that they better integrate into online shopping. You could have used signed receipts for the wire transfer by the bank instead though.

keepquestioning• 4 years ago

Even India has better payments than Europe. Thank you Modi

BrandoElFollito• 4 years ago

This would be welcome in France. We have middle-age grade banking where "instant transfers" are very limited and they are presented as a revolution.

I recently visited Poland and their banking/payment system is amazing (especially Blik). Anything that moves is France ahead will be great.

I do not even touch the question of the login screens that are atrocious. Boursorama (largest online bank) had me chose exactly 8 digits PIN to log in. Fortuneo broke their logging screen.

None of them care the slightest.

Commission proposes to accelerate the rollout of instant payments in euro

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