The Knife Maker

http://thisismadebyhand.com/film/the_knife_maker

by rglover • 15 years ago

315 192 15 years ago

snikolic• 15 years ago

This series really got me thinking about the programmer as a craftsman or an artist. I know pg has written about this before, but I felt the connection for the first time as I watched these videos. I really empathized with these guys: the obsession, the passion to perfect some skill, wanting to create utility for others, the risk of failing or looking crazy, the excitement of using something you've built, chasing perfection. It all clicked for me. I think we've all caught the same bug, in some way.

Check out the other video in this series about a distiller: http://thisismadebyhand.com/film/the_distiller

All in all, this series is really beautiful and really well done. I'm looking forward to what's to come.

3pt14159• 15 years ago

Great site. Even the HTML looks like it was made by hand, except the weird obfusticated javascript at the bottom.

Edit: it looks like he is using expression engine for the site.

there• 15 years ago

i noticed that too. it builds the contact link, so the obfuscation is to hide the email address from spammers.

joelhooks• 15 years ago

Last year I went to a Software Craftsmanship gathering in Chicago. It was a great experience.

http://scna.softwarecraftsmanship.org/

trafficlight• 15 years ago

I didn't like The Distiller as compared to the Knife Maker.

The guy in the Distiller doesn't seem to have the same passion as the knife maker. I got the impression that he wanted to do something and thought he could make money as a gin distiller because they didn't exist anymore in his area.

The knife maker, on the other hand, obviously enjoys his craft. I think he will be making knives forever, even if they don't sell as well as they do now.

kitcar• 15 years ago

I don't totally get the thought that handmade is always better.

Specifically, reminds me of a skit from Portlandia (IFC) about hand made light bulbs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P85vZpYF3Yg .

gaustin2• 15 years ago

It's not that handmade is always, better. It's that handmade is often better when it comes to specific uses. It's similar to the choice you make when you write code when you could have taken something off the shelf to use. Sometimes you need the edge that built to purpose gives.

This is definitely the case for high performance knives. The choice of steel and the geometry of the edge, bevels and belly can be easily customized to fit the specific purpose of the knife. The first couple of knives I have made don't look that great, but since I nailed the heat treat and grind they are the best cutting implements I've ever owned.

husted• 15 years ago

Handmade doesn't automatically means better. I wear mechanical watches. Some of them are handmade and you can see the imperfections due to a slightly unsteady hand in the polishing and decorations. This, in my book, adds character and just make my watch so much more special.

Yes a mass produced watch (Rolex/Omega/etc) are "better" in the sense that there's no imperfections. And more expensive watches (PP/Lange/etc) than I can afford are also handmade but have no imperfections. At all. They are also massively expensive.

I love handmade stuff and the fact that it's not perfect. You know that there's a human being that with hard work and a lot of talent has produced a work of art.

Now s/watches/knives/ but I don't collect knives.

subpixel• 15 years ago

Making and selling handmade products does not guarantee happiness or success (see http://nyti.ms/srgRtu). I think in the vast majority of cases, 'doing it by hand' is probably not the answer.

What's inspiring about this guy is that he's succeeding by serving a vibrant professional market. The chefs who drop a grand on a couple of his knives are using them in the kitchen to make money. They want the best tools for the job, and everyone wins. It's product/market fit.

So kudos to him.

But don't get so inspired you drop everything to build the most beautiful product in the world believing people will buy it _because_ of how hard you worked on it or how awesome it is.

diego_moita• 15 years ago

> I don't totally get the thought that handmade is always better.

This. I live in a 3rd world country (Brazil) and see a lot of truth in what you say. This film talks about art, not about consistent production of quality.

Take a man with passion, resources, intelligence and immense dedication and he will produce a work of high quality; doesn't matter if it is shoes, painting, engineering, suits or knives.

But it just doesn't scale. You won't find many more people with the same skills. You won't be able to produce as much as 15 robots in Germany. And you also need an extremely up-scale market for your product (NY food scene, in this case). And you also need very efficient marketing (in this case a photographer to introduce him to the chefs community).

Bottom line: this guy is like a panda living in a extremely rare and delicate niche environment. Once the NY food scene vanishes he is toast. Find someone in India or China willing to do the same for 1/10 th of the price and he is toast. Have smarter knife making robots in Germany and he is toast. Any tiny little perturbation can get him out of the market.

There's a reason why industrial revolution succeeded. There's a reason why families of hundreds of years of pottery makers in India are going extinct (lighter, cheaper and uglier plastic bowls). There's a reason why my wife's father gave up on beautiful handmade carpentry. The reason is that ugly but cheap and good enough is what almost everyone wants.

timwiseman4• 15 years ago

* cheap and good enough is what almost everyone wants.*

The key word was almost.

Some people are willing to pay much more for something that is hand-made by a craftsman, even when there is something that is as good (or even better!) made by a factory. Their willingness to pay goes up dramatically if the craftsman is well known and signs or stamps his work, and can also go up if the craftsman in some engages directly with the buyers and the buyers can get to know the craftsman. Many value the authenticity and the connection to the craftsman. Some, in the right context, value being able to show the object and say "This was hand-crafted by xxx".

That is why, even though swords hardly ever see practical use anymore and you could get a machine to manufacture a sword to high standards you still have a few skilled craftsmen making a living hand-forging swords. Similarly, you can get software to play Go for free, a cardboard Go-board that works well enough for $25, and a decent bamboo machine-made set for under $100. But there are still plenty of people paying substantially (sometimes very substantially) over $1000 for a hand-carved Goban made of kaya wood.

I do not think this trend will change any time soon.

sliverstorm5• 15 years ago

Handmade is not better as a rule, but I think we have arrived at a place in society where 'handmade' has a connotation of great effort invested for quality. In other words, the fact that it is not made on an assembly line suggests that cost savings were not an important part of production, hopefully leading to a superior product.

efsavage• 15 years ago

A small part of me wishes that I didn't enjoy coding so much, or that I wasn't good at it, or that it didn't pay so much better than woodworking, which I find just as enjoyable.

codeslush• 15 years ago

The part that struck me was when he said something along the lines of: It takes 10,000 (or 15,000) hours just to get the necessary knowledge. Then, you are at step one. You may or may not be good, but don't know until you've put in the required time.

Also, the immediate authenticity I felt by this man and this story is something amazing. Great way to start my day.

marisela_arias• 15 years ago

"10,000 hours of training, according to Malcolm Gladwell’s book Outliers. Gladwell based this assertion on the work of Anders Ericsson, who studied classical violinists and found that, in every case, it had taken a regimen of 2-3 hours a day for 10 years to develop their abilities. Later research by Ericsson and others confirmed similar results in other fields."

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/on-luck-success-a...

jeira• 15 years ago

I don't think it is as straightforward as that. Imagine you're learning chess and you have a chess master as your teacher, you are going to annihilate someone who has putted the same amount of time, even more, but who doesn't have such a good teacher.

wmat• 15 years ago

Just watched both available videos in the series and can't help but be inspired. The point that the "art is in the details" of a hand made item really resonates with me with respect to handmade guitars. Factory made guitars, from the big manufacturers such as Fender, Gibson, Martin, etc. are excellent guitars, but there's something about the attention to detail in a hand made guitar that makes it special, makes it art. I really hope they plan a film focusing on an small, independent luthier.

e_g• 15 years ago

Reminded me of this post http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2646501 about a guy who created a knife from scratch, starting with the construction of this own smelter.

mapleoin4• 15 years ago

This is the most inspirational/life-changing video I've seen all year. I really think that there is a huge amount of stuff that we could start building or making locally, individually with skill, craft and dedication.

I would love to be able to work with my hands in a workshop, learning to make unique and masterful things from a master craftsmanship instead of sitting for 8 hours a day in the office dealing with things so abstract that they disappear when you switch off the electricity.

jerf• 15 years ago

So do it.

pavel_lishin• 15 years ago

I imagine that he can't afford to lose income for the time it would take to train.

nobody3141592• 15 years ago

So merely battering a piece of metal (that other cleverer people have spent 200 years designing the alloys of) into shape is craftsmanship.

While creating a piece of software - a functional machine out of pure thought - is somehow just grunt work?

mapleoin4• 15 years ago

I didn't say that creating software is grunt work, I just said that my back hurts from sitting on a chair. I'd rather be a complete human being who uses his brain, body and soul, not just a brain plugged into the internet.

JabavuAdams5• 15 years ago

I would love to be able to become a master craftsman and then program a computer to augment and replicate my craftsmanship.

rmc4• 15 years ago

I really think that there is a huge amount of stuff that we could start building or making locally, individually with skill, craft and dedication.

Yes that used to be the dominant form of production & employment up until ~ 200 years ago. You could bring it back. You might not get enough stuff though.

rmc4• 15 years ago

You investigate if there are any hackerspaces near you. They are a modern incarnation of the teaching each other & learning things. Probably a bit more electronic & technical aimed, and less traditional crafts, but they would be interested in traditional crafts. My local space has a woodwork room.

holdenc• 15 years ago

This video reminds me of why I loved living in New York. And, it epitomizes what is great about that city -- many people who believe that great art is worth the sacrifice.

powertower• 15 years ago

The other video is here: http://vimeo.com/28408829

I can't view it through their website in IE8.

brador2• 15 years ago

Aside: What is with the proliferation of vimeo usage? I've found it more likely to crash my laptop, making me reluctant to click. Never had a crash from youtube.

blehn• 15 years ago

That's easy. Better video quality. More attractive controls/player. A community that enjoys this type of thing.

Note: Youtube has been improving with respect to the first two.

Also, does it really lock up your whole system?

brador2• 15 years ago

Not the whole system, just crashes firefox. I also don't like that I can't reduce the resolution as finely as I can with youtube.

pcestrada• 15 years ago

I found this fascinating. I love seeing people develop and demonstrate their craft in a authentic, passionate way. There is a physical component to his work where you use all your senses, such as when he feels the edge of the sharpened knife with his thumb, that you just don't have with programming. To produce a physical artifact that has the right balance, heft, lines, and finish requires the integration of a lot of different skills that when done properly, is deeply satisfying.

puredanger• 15 years ago

I have rarely gone wrong in being a consumer of someone passionate about what they are doing or in doing something I feel passionate about.

apechai2• 15 years ago

Beautiful knives.

I hope the handmade movement really takes off. Maybe people could consume less but unique artifacts that have a real story behind them rather than accumulating mountains of mass produced, generic stuff that ends up in a trash heap a couple of years later.

sk5t4• 15 years ago

Handmade / custom knives are quite popular among collectors and enthusiasts. They're expensive, you can't chuck them in the kitchen sink until the next morning or the carbon steel will start to rust, but they are just awesome to use, and I expect they'll be appreciated for generations to come.

Just for a reality check, let's say a top-quality, handmade, 8" chef's knife runs about $500. Most people consider an $80 mass-produced piece from Henckel or Wusthof to be rather extravagant...

z0r• 15 years ago

I think it is not mass production that is the issue, but the short lifespan of the things we use. If every tool, every building, every mechanism - electronic or otherwise - lasted forever, or even just ten times as long, our economy and society would undergo radical changes as have never been seen before. (Sorry for what is both an obvious observation and a complete departure from the OP, but I have had this thought stuck in my mind for a while)

apechai2• 15 years ago

You're right - I wasn't referring to all mass produced things. But I do like it when someone buys (or makes) a gift that's unique, but cheap, rather than something generic but expensive.

For example, take toys. There's this store that sells hand made toys around the block from me: http://playing-mantis.com/wooden.htm. Does it make sense for a kid to have 3 plastic toys they'll use for a couple of months and throw away or to buy a handcrafted toy they could keep for life (and even pass on)?

When I talked to the store clerk at Playing Mantis, she said most of their toys don't come from the US but from Germany, Austria and Japan because the craftsmanship is good there.

It's not a pipe dream that this could change - companies like kickstarter and etsy are enabling this move towards story-driven, experiential consumption.

icebraining• 15 years ago

I don't know; plenty of people I know throw away (read: recycle) functional stuff, just because it's functionally obsolete. Even I, who never bought a cellphone, have a working Nokia 3310 on some drawer. But who'd want it? You can get a better, newer phone for the same price as the shipping fees for a package.

Besides, do we really want unsafe, gas wasting cars to last forever? Electricity wasting fridges or TVs? Isn't it better to recycle them?

culturestate3• 15 years ago

There is a happy medium with mass production - the main issue is that many people (in my observation) no longer value quality equally to price, e.g. the cheapest pot from WalMart will do, and when it chips or warps next year we'll just spend $15 on another one instead of buying a single $50 version that will last. One of the greatest lessons that I've ever learned in business is that you shouldn't spend extravagantly, but you shouldn't be afraid to spend a little more for quality where it matters.

HeyLaughingBoy3• 15 years ago

you shouldn't be afraid to spend a little more for quality where it matters

It's more likely that they don't see any reason to spend more than $15. Someone knows they can get a pot that looks OK for $15, whereas the $50 doesn't have any immediately obvious benefit.

I love tools, but I'm far from a tool snob. I have lots of cheap tools because I'm never going to wear out, e.g., a screwdriver. It's worth more to me to have five $3 screwdrivers than a single $15 one. But I just spent $200 on a wire crimping tool because I know that the $15 ones won't do the job right. But if they did, then there is no way I'd buy the more expensive one. Most people are just like that: they won't spend more than they have to unless there is a clear benefit.

bryanlarsen3• 15 years ago

In many cases the $15 pot from WalMart is better than the $50 pot. It's thinner than the $50 pot, so it reacts to adjustments in temperature a lot faster. The coating is simple thin Teflon, so it wears out a lot faster than the $50 pot, but it actually has better non-stick properties than the $50 pot.

I've got expensive pots, but the skillets that I use the most are a $5 teflon/aluminum skillet I got from Loblaws that I replace every 6 months, and a $15 cast iron skillet I got from a flea market that I properly seasoned and I expect to last 100 years.

jjanzer• 15 years ago

The parallels between Joel Bukiewicz's passion and many startups are striking. Some people understand that extreme amounts of money isn't what makes them happy, rather being able to completely explore their own medium in the ways they choose is where the love is.

Amazing film, very well done.

tonyedgecombe• 15 years ago

In a similar vain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGMj7o6AwnM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pM0VnL30rDc

mml• 15 years ago

The thing that struck me about this film, is that he's not wearing safety goggles. Stupid move.

patio11• 15 years ago

I'm torn between "This guy clearly enjoys his work, bully for him." and "The handmade movement is an extravagantly wasteful alternative to a factory in China to give rich white people an opportunity to demonstrate their social superiority over people who use functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion." (c.f. organic food, fair trade coffee, etc etc. This topic makes me positively Marxist. There was a time when only wealthy folks could afford goods. Capitalism happened and now everyone can afford goods. This really discomfits some people, so they get very creative at inventing reasons why the goods they are using today are the right goods and the goods they were using ten years ago are now the wrong goods since poor people now have access to them.)

mapleoin4• 15 years ago

So you're saying that fair trade coffee benefits "the white man" rather than the producers in the third-world country? That's exactly the opposite of what fair trade means.

Also, hand-made isn't fighting against capitalism, it's fighting against mass-production, sweat-shops and machine-people jobs like the ones portrayed on Chaplin's City Lights or even Discovery Channel's How It's Made.

klbarry• 15 years ago

Factory jobs pay more than double the average wage in all developing countries. They are demanded by workers and much anguish is caused when they are lost.

cschmidt2• 15 years ago

He's saying that the main benefit of fair trade to the consumer is a sense of superiority or reduced guilt over those who drink "regular" coffee. That sort of benefit always strikes me as a bit of a "luxury good" as well, in the sense that the benefit isn't about the functionality or quality of the coffee itself.

There is of course a benefit to the producer as well, in the form of a fair price.

I imagine most of the factory workers on "How It's Made" rather like their jobs. They all seem to take pride in what they produce.

jmj4• 15 years ago

>So you're saying that fair trade coffee benefits "the white man" rather than the producers in the third-world country? That's exactly the opposite of what fair trade means.

Does Fair Trade really benefit all of the producers in the third-world? What are the side effects of Fair Trade? I think you could postulate that it drives down conventional coffee farmer's profits, since non-fair trade coffee will try and compete on price.

Wouldn't this lead to lower wages and higher poverty for the majority of the farmers?

I have no data to back this up. Anyone know any facts about this and care to share?

dangrover• 15 years ago

No, but the price difference between buying normal and fair trade (as a consumer) is much larger than the price difference between the underlying coffee crop used in each.

Tim Harford wrote about this: http://timharford.com/2008/04/business-life-fair-trade-or-fo...

In some cases, he says, fair trade is 10X the margin!

Fair trade exists to segment the market and collect more consumer surplus (more than it exists to improve conditions).

brycecolquitt3• 15 years ago

> Also, hand-made isn't fighting against capitalism, it's fighting against mass-production, sweat-shops and machine-people jobs like the ones portrayed on Chaplin's City Lights or even Discovery Channel's How It's Made.

That's capitalism. To be more specific, those are inevitable effects of capitalism.

tambourine_man• 15 years ago

portrayed on Chaplin's City Lights

I think you mean "Modern Times".

oinksoft• 15 years ago

Typical utilitarian bullshit, and with a shade of bigotry at that. Who are you to deem this activity wasteful? The man produces something that other people want, and you want to go ahead and condemn all parties because mass production is more efficient?

m__• 15 years ago

Don't be torn: there's a place for both. The affordable mass-produced stuff is great for obvious reasons, while the wasteful, pretentious hippster-alternative is cool for whomever happens to get off on this stuff. The latter is such a small niche, it hardly makes a difference economically, but people still value this stuff.

Not liking it doesn't make you a Marxist but just somebody who happens not to like this kind of stuff.

freemarketteddy3• 15 years ago

>There was a time when only wealthy folks could afford goods. Capitalism happened and now everyone can afford goods.

Okay this may sound abstract.....when you buy an object which has been crafted to perfection by another artist....you dont just buy the object ....it feels like you almost bought some of that perfection...it feels like maybe it can breathe some perfection into your work!

On a cynical note maybe it makes it easier for you to justify the amount of hard work that you put in perfecting every infinitely minute detail in your work.

It is also comforting to know that there are people out there who value perfection and attention to detail like you.....and when you show them your work they'll see all the hard work you have put into it.

JabavuAdams5• 15 years ago

Marketing works. This is an example of marketing based on authenticity.

Regarding perfection: machines are much more capable of perfection re: manufacturing than humans. Where I think we get confused is that in the past only corporations had the capital to mass-produce, and they have an incentive to "race to the bottom" in terms of production cost. Although it's not the goal, usually quality suffers as a result. So, we associate mass production with poor quality.

I've been spending a lot of time studying historical armour manufacturing and also rocketry. It's clear to me that the goods manufactured by passionate, talented, (and largely under-capitalized) craftspeople are inferior to what could be made by automation. It's just that they're often superior to what is actually made by cost-cutting automation.

Note: I'm all for people "geeking out" about their interests. As we automate more work, people will need more hobbies.

timwiseman4• 15 years ago

This makes sense. The vast majority of things I buy, I buy to use, I couldn't care less how they were made (within reason, I would switch brands if I found out making that particular type of toothbrush involved the slow torture of puppies).

But I understand the appeal of seeing certain items as works of art in their own right, even if the item also has a functional value. Once it is a piece of art first and its function is secondary, I care very much how it was made and by whom.

noahc2• 15 years ago

This is an honest question, and I promise, I'm not trolling but have you actually experienced where someone is really uncomfortable because I can go buy something that is of equal quality and it is related to social status? Is there data on this?

Sure there are trends clothing, knife brands, and almost every other good comes in and out fashion, but isn't that the nature of competition and capitalism? Is this because the wealthy don't want to be seen as using the same thing as the unwashed masses?

In some ways I want to believe you, but I find it unfathomable.

khafra• 15 years ago

It's not at all controversial--standard social signaling theory. GMU Econ professor Robin Hanson's blog, http://overcomingbias.com, has stuff about it all the time. Here's some more classic citations: http://octavia.zoology.washington.edu/handicap/honest_econom...

div• 15 years ago

One of those emotions projects on the guy, the other projects on the reasons why people buy his stuff.

I suppose the easy way to buy from him and not feel like an asshole is to appreciate the passion and love that goes into the work he does.

Especially the way it's portrayed by the video, and especially with knives, there's this "this is a Hattori Hanzo sword" feeling attached to it.

If you're in the business of fighting other people with swords, a Hattori Hanzo is likely a good thing to have.

If you are a professional chef or butcher, or a passionate hobby cook, owning one of these knives may provide you with more value than a regular knife. Which side of your opposite judgements someone falls on, to me depends very much on what they use the knife for.

zeteo• 15 years ago

Rest assured, your stance is by no means Marxist (it might be Veblenian, though). Marx valued the ethos of the small artisan and was deeply concerned about worker "alienation" resulting from mass methods of production.

spacemanaki3• 15 years ago

"functionally equivalent objects produced in an efficient fashion"

I haven't actually used this guy's knives. But I've used cheap knives and I've cut myself on cheap, dull knives that don't hold their edge. And I've used moderately expensive knives. It's night and day. Cheap knives just aren't functionally equivalent.

The same can be said about coffee, chocolate and other fair trade stuff. Ground Maxwell coffee that comes in a can might be functionally equivalent to Intelligentsia beans at the task of "deliver caffeine in a hot liquid form", but that doesn't mean the Intelligentsia is more expensive just because rich people want to feel superior to people who drink Maxwell. It's in part because the Intelligentsia is less efficiently produced that it tastes better. And as far as I understand it, the Maxwell coffee is being produced in such a way that the true cost (to the workers, to the land) is not actually incorporated.

onemoreact3• 15 years ago

There is a difference between a premium brand, and a premium brand that promotes fair trade. As a friend used to work in a supermarket used to say, when the oranges got a little old we would relabel them as organic and increase the price.

Note: I buy organic food, but I try and verify it's a bettor product before it's a habit. Otherwise it's vary easy to spend more money on something you like less.

ctdonath• 15 years ago

Indeed. "Functionally equivalent" all too often misses the point.

Endless arguments have been had over Apple computers vs. "functionally equivalent" computers for far lower costs ... funny thing is, it's Apple that has achieved "most valuable company worldwide period" status, showing customers see something superior in addition to the standard simplistic comparison charts.

Ditto cars. For years I wondered "what is it about BMWs and other German cars? ok, they're built nice, but really - why?" Then I drove a Mercedes on the Autobahn. Sometimes you just can't quantify in simple charts the difference between "can do" vs. "excellent" - but customers demand and pay for it.

Coffee? Snob here. Haven't gone so far as roasting my own, but have gone thru endless varieties, roasts, and makers to settle on palatable superiority.

Beer? No, it's NOT an acquired taste. Bavarian brews bought & imbibed in Bavaria are 100x better than the canned swill here.

But of course, the cheap & premium stuff are considered "functionally equivalent" by the rabble. Let them be content in their ignorance.

tptacek7• 15 years ago

Most of the "best" knives are in fact mass-produced. In fact, the knives this guy is talking about, made by "a couple of robots in Germany" aren't "cheap knives"; they're the super expensive heavy full-tang forged Wusthof and Henckel's knives that are themselves kitchen status symbols.

But even allowing for that: there are extremely good mass-produced stamped "cheap" knives. Cooks Illustrated's favorite knife is a stamped Victorinox you can get for like $35.

Let's not pretend that there is really a crisis of mass-produced crappy knives that requires a hand-crafted antidote. There is real value to what this guy does --- I'm drooling over the idea of having a 10" chef's knife done to spec --- but really the western world pretty much has the problem of "how to make a good cost-effective chef's knife" licked.

rubashov2• 15 years ago

> cheap ... dull knives that don't hold their edge

Well with knives the trade off is sharpness vs how often you have to sharpen. Harder steel will "hold the edge" and require sharpening less often. But to get a truly sharp edge you have to use softer steel and be willing to hone and strop frequently.

The good soft steel in high quality knives is also not stainless. You get black and orange rust streaks. I'm sure this presents a marketing problem.

vwoolf• 15 years ago

If you're interested in inexpensive but very good knives without some of the social superiority complexes attached, see the Atlantic's article "Never a Dull Moment": http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2007/04/never-a-... . The sidebar is also useful.

JabavuAdams5• 15 years ago

> This really discomfits some people, so they get very creative at inventing reasons

Nah, I think you're extrapolating to far. It's just a connoisseur mentality -- the same as for wine, scotch, guns, etc. It can be annoying, it's often untrue, but it taps into the same desire to be self-righteous that's buried in your post, and many of our day-to-day actions.

Please don't interpret the previous sentence / paragraph to mean "you're self righteous!" in the usual insulting conversational sense. I think it's a widespread human desire. I.e. I often bristle at someone's behaviour and am about to school them before I thoroughly understand the situation.

Actually guns are an outlier -- many arms manufacturers use the language of authenticity, but then mass-produce their products.

There may be a little touch of unconscious racism re: China, but that's a society-wide thing, not some defect / choice of these craftspeople. I.e. there was a time when goods manufactured in China were crap. Now they're not, but the bias remains.

gaustin2• 15 years ago

Actually, there are custom gun makers. There is somewhat less room for "handmade" when it comes to firearms, but they still get pretty creative where possible.

I don't know any makers personally, but I do belong to the same blacksmithing club as a guy who deals in authentically custom guns and knives: http://www.hallowellco.com/

I'm not a collector, but I love to go look at the pictures.

neworbit• 15 years ago

There are all sorts of cottage industries in the firearms business. My midwestern and southern relatives are extremely enthused about such things. Mostly it amounts to "customizing a stock weapon with aftermarket accessories" as far as I can tell - personalizing it and suiting it to your tastes and build. I'm not much of a gun guy - I can tell that this one has a better scope or a more comfortable grip, but the rest of it's kind of lost on me.

I think it's much the same sort of mindset as the folks who who like to customize their vehicles. In some cases, it's the same people, but if my relatives are any indication the overlap between those two circles isn't that high.

HeyLaughingBoy3• 15 years ago

At some level, anything that's not a perfect use of the resources consumed in producing it is "wasteful" to some extent.

Don't be too down on him: there are many niches where mass production dares not tread (you know this well enough) or the mass produced products are clearly inferior to the handmade ones. Cottage industries have always existed, all that seems to have changed is that they're getting more positive press these days and are now a "Movement."

sliverstorm5• 15 years ago

Why is the handmade movement extravagantly wasteful? The main resource added in handmade prodcuts is time, and unlike helium, crude oil and heavy metals, time is not a scarce resource we risk using up.

sliverstorm5• 15 years ago

I think it is also worth pointing out that more durable, reliable products do not have to be replaced as often. Not to mention, cheap low-quality goods are in theory functionally equivalent, but in practice it often turns out differently.

rmc4• 15 years ago

Time can be used up. We all have a finite number of hours. Everyone dies.

mc323• 15 years ago

I think they mean it's wasteful in the way having a chauffer is wasteful. (I don't agree with that contention). "Look, I have the time and money to learn a dying, inefficient art whilst you order yours thru Amazon --like everyone else. This makes me a little special."

bryanlarsen3• 15 years ago

If you go by price signals, human time is one of the scarcest resources on the planet.

ars4• 15 years ago

It wastes energy - a lot of it. In the manufacturing, in transportation, and tied up in capital equipment.

kylemathews• 15 years ago

Yeah, I read "The Theory of the Leisure Class" recently and have been rethinking the meaning of a lot of cultural values/activities so understand very well your dilemma.

In this case however, I think buying expensive hand-made knives is a pretty clear case of conspicuous consumption. They're not markedly better in any way over mass-manufactured knives that anyone can afford.

mc323• 15 years ago

I like positively middle class factory produced Global knives. That said, to me, this movement is just an extension of the "Home Depot"/DIY effect --nothing more. It's not egotistical whites or egotistical Japanese who make hand-crafted goods only because they can afford to. It's people who enjoy craft for the sake of craft, rather than a show of superiority.

sliverstorm5• 15 years ago

Yea, I identify with the guy, and as best I can tell he just enjoys his newfound craft. For someone like that, selling your work provides you two things- validation when other people like your work, and money to keep doing what you love doing.

rdl3• 15 years ago

If you want to go beyond (upper-middle) class with Global, you can go to Japan to buy the only-in-Japan Global-Pro line. It's hardened more (and thus more prone to chipping or breaking if abused), but even better than the regular Global series for most kitchen tasks.

sliverstorm5• 15 years ago

I'm torn between dearly loving spending my time on crafts such as this, and being unable to give a strong rebuttal to your criticisms of the handmade movement.

pjscott• 15 years ago

If a hobby makes you happy, then you don't need any further justification for it.

JoeAltmaier• 15 years ago

There will always be somebody ready to take money from the moneyed, with goods of real or imagined superior quality. Just look at what having the right label on the rags you wear, does to the price.

mikecarlucci2• 15 years ago

Aren't the members of the handmade movement part of the capitalist system? If no one purchases their goods, preferring instead a factory made product, they will go out of business. Or maybe just continue to produce as a hobby or for friends and family as gifts.

einhverfr6• 15 years ago

It depends on how you define Capitalist.

If you mean free market, yes.

If you mean a system aimed at dividing those who own and run businesses from those who are merely employees, then no.

In other words, it fits some definitions of Capitalist, but it does not include the Capital/Labor divide which is usually a hallmark of Capitalism.

gchpaco4• 15 years ago

I don't know chef's knives from Adam, but I'll counter that with some stuff I do know about, which is hand tool woodworking.

TL;DR: I buy handmade saws because they are demonstrably superior.

Time was you could not buy a quality Western saw new for love or money[1]. And by "time was" I mean "as recently as six to ten years ago". Independence Tools were the first people since the 40s, probably earlier, to make a dovetail saw worth using and that was in 1996 or so; if you wanted a full sized hand saw pretty much only the Lynx/Pax brands existed and as an owner of three of those let me tell you they do not come ready to use (think re-setting, resharpening, and making the handle comfortable to use).

Most people working in the western tradition used their grandfather's factory made saws, which despite being factory made required extensive hand work to e.g. get the taper grind right. Relatively recently it has become possible to buy a very good mass produced dovetail/small carcasse saw from Lee Valley. But those saws aren't very old, and nearly everyone else in the industry (and it is an industry now, albeit a small one; I can't even remember all the small-factory superb saws made now. At least a dozen different marques) does it basically the way Disston and its competitors used to; skilled artisans.

It would not surprise me in the least to learn that cheap factory made knives have bad handles, bad balance, bad steel and a bad grind, and any one of those things can screw up a knife you are using all day every day.

ericd3• 15 years ago

Fascinating. Have you tried any of the Japanese pull saws? How do those compare to a good handmade western saw? I've only dabbled in woodworking, but I found those pull saws to be much more manageable than the other saws I had available to me.

On the knife front, I use some cheap carbon steel French knives called Opinel. They're excellent, except for their penchant for rusting (not a huge issue, it wipes away, they just don't stay shiny). I would assume that they're factory made, given that they're less than $10. I think they use the same design they've been using for 100 years.

tptacek7• 15 years ago

Actually, mass-produced chef's knives seem to be underrated; the stamped knife you can buy from Victorinox is, if you aren't way more fussy than the typical cook, likely to outperform a handcrafted aggressively-sharpened 440 high-carbon blade. Finer materials and carefully sharpened edges require a higher amount of care.

There's a legitimate joy to take in using competently hand-crafted chef's knife, particularly if you can have it made to a specification.

But a lot of the "best" knives sold really are status symbols (like the "best" of everything sold). Real pro kitchens don't always reach for the "best" stuff, since pro kitchens abuse their kit. Bourdain's sous talked about treating his Global knives as disposable.

einhverfr6• 15 years ago

I think as Hilaire Belloc pointed out (in "The Servile State"), the Industrial Revolution (and Capitalism) happened because private landlords were kicking peasants off their land, and thus creating a class of people who couldn't afford goods and were desperate for the work that the factories could offer.

I love handcrafted goods. I purchase them when I can. I know smiths who make things by hand.

The problem with factories in China is that if China loans our economy money and then becomes the low-cost supplier, all we end up doing is eventually destroying both economies.

I will never be a Marxist. It seems to me that trying to solve the issues which come from corporations being too powerful by concentrating that power still further in the state is a bad idea. The only way it can work is if workers individually are in control of the means of production, not through the national government. A few quasi-Marxists got this point (Wilhelm Reich, for example), but usually it's the domain of third way folks like Belloc who favor free markets and small businesses.

I'd point out also that if we weren't so productive, maybe the government wouldn't eat up 30% of our GDP.....

Nessuss• 15 years ago

The essence of capitalism is that consumers buy what goods or services they think are worth for them, otherwise they don't. If a handmade knife is worth more to a chef then a china created one, then the chef benefits. Remember, knives are their tools of trade, just like for many of us computers are the tools of trade - who doesn't want the very best tools?

Even if the knife is not better than a mass produced one, as long as the consumer believes they are better off then the consumer gains from the transaction. Perhaps you, as a non-chef, are ignorant of the subtleties of knifes. I use a macbook, and there are sure to be people that wonder why I spend a big premium in price for computer with similar hardware. Why? well, I like quality tools.

It strikes me as attacking the very heart of capitalism by saying that its "an extravagantly wasteful alternative" to a mass produced knife - who are you to decide that? For one thing, this is competition, if mass produced knives are worse than hard crafted, let the market decide that and punish this (awesome) fella for his short production lines and 'inefficient' capital to knives ratio. The price for his knives will reflect how much better (or worse!) they are compared to the 'efficient' mass produced ones, and if he can't work fast enough to make a living, then he moves onto something else. It's sad, but life is about risks.

However, apologies if I have mistaken your point, though you claim that you're in Marxist mode so I'll counter it by being positively capitalistic.

lmm2• 15 years ago

As a serious computer guy I always bought the cheapest mass-produce computer I could get for the specs.

(Not really contradicting you, just thought it was interesting on the "who doesn't want the very best tools?" side)

wooster• 15 years ago

I tend to think this is an example of an idea I heard someone else present (probably William Gibson) which, roughly paraphrased, goes: in a world without scarcity, the only value is in authenticity.

That is, when mass produced items are cheap and ubiquitous, unique, authentic, custom, hand-made, etc items, even though they may not be objectively better, will still be more valuable. Their narrative is what imparts the value, since the actual object will have none above the mass-produced version.

BrandonM• 15 years ago

Like it or not, I think this is the future of human labor. As robots take over manufacturing (we're well on our way in the US) and other processes continue to be automated, we're left with the dilemma of finding productive work for displaced individuals. I've seen it suggested a few times on HN that the future of human labor is in creating one-of-a-kind, artful items that cannot be produced by machine. This is one example of that.

It's obviously not purely a function of utility. When I watch a professional artist at work, be it a musician or a painter or even a knife maker, it's an inspiring thing. I can't help but support them in whatever it is they're doing. For a brief moment, I remember that I could make literally anything of my life, and I'm inspired. It makes my work more meaningful, that I can use the fruits of my labor to support this other person's passion. The artifacts of that support, be it CDs, chalk drawings, or knives are memories of that inspiration. They are interesting stories.

The appeal for some will be the ability to signal to others that they are wealthy and powerful enough to convince another human to spend hours creating something for them. Perhaps you see this as a demonstration of "social superiority". When this transaction occurs in a voluntary, equal-information context, however, the result is purely virtuous capitalism. Bob can get fulfillment and riches by owning the machinery that mass-produces a good which makes the lives of the general population better. And then he can get additional good feelings by paying Alice 50x more than the cost of his goods for her to spend 20 hours of her time making that same good by hand. No one loses here. The world is 51 knives richer and society continues marching on.

It's easy to get tunnel vision and focus on things from our own world view. You've done amazing things with optimization and I appreciate everything you've given back to the community in the process. But the general goal of humanity is not to maximize efficiency. It is not an injustice when something is less efficient than it could be, in spite of everything our programming career has taught us. The truth is that there is no general goal. Kurt Vonnegut said it best when he said, ‎"We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different." I'll end this post with his thoughts:

[When Vonnegut tells his wife he's going out to buy an envelope] Oh, she says, well, you're not a poor man. You know, why don't you go online and buy a hundred envelopes and put them in the closet? And so I pretend not to hear her. And go out to get an envelope because I'm going to have a hell of a good time in the process of buying one envelope. I meet a lot of people. And, see some great looking babes. And a fire engine goes by. And I give them the thumbs up. And, and ask a woman what kind of dog that is. And, and I don't know. The moral of the story is, is we're here on Earth to fart around. And, of course, the computers will do us out of that. And, what the computer people don't realize, or they don't care, is we're dancing animals. You know, we love to move around. And, we're not supposed to dance at all anymore.

mvzink• 15 years ago

You bring up Marxism, and it's interestingly relevant.

Happiness and liberty, for Marx, are about deliberately creating our material world. That is, every man is equally free to shape the conditions in which he lives (so far, presumably, as he is physically able). Capitalism, for Marx, undermines this by alienating the labourer from his product (the product is owned not by him, but by his employer) and through the continual growth of capital. To gloss over some important details to get to the point, this means: labourers are really and truly enslaved to their labour, which precludes the free use of that labour to shape their world, while the capitalists are enslaved to profit and so can only shape the world (or cause it to be shaped by their labourers) in so far as it grows their capital.

As a complementary result, Marx's ideal of communism has this desirable peculiarity about the relationship of labourer and labour: the product of labour becomes the true, free expression of the labourer's self.

I'd say Mr. Bukiewicz is doing his best, under the capitalist mode of production, to make his work an expression of himself: he even calls his knives art.

Read the about section of Made by Hand (http://thisismadebyhand.com/about/) and you'll see that they aim precisely to expose instances of production where the relationship between producer and product, and consumer and product, is personal and social—just like Marx always wanted.

(Attentive readers may note that the existence of purely creative work as a legitimate means of subsistence today, and the fact that Joel is able to make overpriced knives for a living, may seem to obviate this impetus for communism. I've heard it suggested that this change in society may be the very reason worldwide communism hasn't yet developed. Look elsewhere for that commentary, I haven't researched it yet. Interesting though, right?)

mechanical_fish• 15 years ago

Don't think of it as a wasteful alternative to a factory in China. Think of it as the high-end-anchor portion of the marketing engine for high-quality knives, most of which will inevitably be made by that factory in China.

The first rule of selling knives is: You have to convince people not to make do with the knives they already have. This person is performing that service not just for himself, and not just for his own customers, but indirectly for all knifemakers in the world and their customers.

There are always going to be a handful of folks whose tastes are so particular, or whose fashion is so keen, or who are sufficiently friendly with the owner of the local forge, that they insist on buying knives that are hand-made by local artisans that they've actually met. But all of those customers will show their knives to other people, and praise their awesome qualities. (Some of them will buy the knives to show them to other people.) Even more people, like me, will read about the knives in the media. And most of the people who hear about the awesome-quality knives won't be able to afford the local artisan. So they'll go shopping for not-quite-so-artisinal but still-kinda-awesome knives, and they'll find some at the local upscale kitchen store, perhaps with tasteful German names and a nearly invisible "made in China" sticker on the back. ;)

(Others of us will go to the restaurant supply store because we are "knowledgeable insiders" who hunt for "bargains", and will find somewhat cheaper high-quality knives with the "made in China" sticker on the front. And yet those probably have a decent profit margin, too. My lesson from briefly traveling in China and listening to my Chinese friends laugh at my hilarious bargaining skills is: I have no idea how big the margins are on the stuff I buy in the US.)

Sad as it is to recognize that so much of a Chinese factory's business – not to mention my own tastes – is driven by the convection caused by the movement of rich people who are rushing upscale to demonstrate their distinctive taste, that is the engine by which a lot of consumer marketing works, and I suspect that the Chinese manufacturers themselves know the nature of that game better than anyone.

willyt3• 15 years ago

These are nice knives, but is this not also a really slick piece of lifestyle marketing?

Also, these knives are quite expensive. I'm not so sure if they are really up there with the handmade japanese knives[1], seems like theres a bit more to it than just sharpening a piece of hardened stainless?[2] Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[1]http://www.japaneseknifecompany.com/KNIVES/LAMINATEDSTEEL/JK...

[2]http://www.japaneseknifecompany.com/VIDEOS/KnifeMakingProces...

PonyGumbo• 15 years ago

He's doing stock removal rather than forging (buys steel stock, cuts, shapes, and sharpens it).

willyt3• 15 years ago

Yes, that's what I guessed from watching the video. I understood that you need at least 3 layers forged together to make a high quality knife; two relatively soft and ductile stainless alloys sandwiching a fairly brittle but hard stainless alloy. From memory, my understanding was that the japanese knife makers fold together multiple layers like this because it's a traditional technique which hardens the alloy in the centre of the sandwich, the layers towards the centre get progressively harder, more brittle and thinner and therefore easier to keep sharp. The more layers, the better the knife, up to a point. Also, the more layers you have the more beautiful the swirly patterns look :-)

rdl3• 15 years ago

The only interesting part of these knives, IMO, are the pins (which he sources from someone else). In addition to merely being stock removal, it's pretty lame steel.

I far prefer Global (http://www.global-knife.com/) for mass-produced knives, and Kramer (http://kramerknives.com/) for custom kitchen knives.

xbryanx• 15 years ago

It's important to remember that he's not entirely making these tools by hand. He's use mass produced drill presses, sand paper, lumber, and metal alloys. I think what he's doing is nice and pretty, but let's not wrap it too much of a handmade ethos.

evlapix2• 15 years ago

Most crafts require tools. Where do you draw the line?

Even with bushcraft you start with a knife and axe which are likely manufactured, not handmade.

bch• 15 years ago

I'm reminded of Dick Proenneke http://bit.ly/s2VFdu.

Here's a start to "Alone In the Wilderness": http://bit.ly/uAcBsD , documenting his work and time spent building a life in Alaska, very much "handmade".

marcamillion• 15 years ago

Where can I see the price and/or link to buy a set?

sjm• 15 years ago

http://cutbrooklyn.com/home.html

davidjhall• 15 years ago

If anyone finds this interesting, I recommend trying a blacksmithing/bladesmithing course in your area. I took a weekend course in knife-making and, while nowhere near the quality in these videos, it was a lot of fun to create a knife to my specs from a thin scrap of steel. In the US, take a look at ABANA.org.

Shameless plug: I've tried to start a new stack exchange on blacksmithing here: http://area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/36172/blacksmithin...

evlapix2• 15 years ago

Making something from nothing has always given me the greatest high. This video reminded me that it is that high that got me into software development.

When I was young (and had no money):

  - Made origami
  - Learned sailors knots
  - 3d sculptures of science fiction aircraft from index cards
  - Bow and arrows from q-tips and underwear rubber
  - Sailboats from 2x4's, coat hangers, plastic garbage bags, and fishing line
  - Skateboard ramps (usually bigger than I was capable of using and with
      none of the right tools)
  - A workbench
  - Peg board (hand drilled from scrap wood)
  - Dozens of hand drawn replicas of video game/anime art
  - Repaired the broken fin of a surfboard purchased at a garage sale (never used)

In high school I exploited my auto shop classes:

  - Replaced the rear differential on a 80's Mustang
  - Removed a motor from an early 90's Camaro
  - Built and installed a roll cage in an early 90's Camaro
  - Taped and sprayed flames on a fiberglass replica 32 Ford hood 
      as a demonstration of a new paint line for local body shops 
  - Completely dismantled the engine of 87 honda civic
  - Resurrected an 80's Volvo with 300k miles on it
  - Made a functioning 6" cowl induction hood for my 89 SR5 Toyota Corolla

From there I got a job at a hot-rod shop:

  - Teardown of a 52 Chevy Bel Air
  - Teardown, body work, and assembly of a split-window Corvette 
  - And countless others

In college majoring in Mechanical Engineering (what a joke):

  - Built a marshmallow launcher
  - Convinced a big angry muscle man with a knife to my throat not
      to hurt me, and steal a keg from a party instead

Once admitted to college, I was given a computer:

  - Pirated software
  - Converted drawings to vector graphics
  - Made techno songs
  - Made 3d models
  - Designed album covers
  - Frankenstein'd countless scrap computers

After I dropped out of college I became a restaurant server:

  - Documented everything I could about HTML/CSS
  - Created custom MySpace themes (and never made a dollar for it)
  - Built my profile in Flash to overcome MySpace's limitations
  - Hid all of the generated MySpace content (minus comments) 
      and built my profile from scratch

From there I became a developer. Software has been an incredible way for me to create and learn. Sadly, the projects my employers provide aren't always challenging enough. Additionally, the complimentary benefits of working with my hands versus sitting at a computer have drawn me to other projects:

  - Built an engine lift
  - Restored a 1987 19' Galaxy boat that I bought 
      for $200 on CL (engine had collapsed into the floor)
  - Bootstrapped a prototype analytics app for the last year (not launched)
  - Insulated, ran electrical, and drywalled my garage
  - Built a workshop (bench, storage, etc) in the garage of my new house
  - Buy/restore/sell furniture on CL

Currently I'm restoring a pool table I bought for $100 on CL:

  - Built strong/true cabinet from cheap construction grade lumber
  - Carved, antiqued, and stained the cabinet to make it not
      look like cheap construction grade lumber
  - Built a slate sled for moving the 1" thick slate pieces up to the 3rd floor

mikecarlucci2• 15 years ago

Exactly. This is the sentiment I expected to see on HN, where there is always praise for the hacker "building" and sticking it to the man because he/she can make something on their own.

einhverfr6• 15 years ago

After reading books like "The Servile State" by Hilaire Belloc and "Birth as an American Rite of Passage" by Robbie Davis-Floyd, I think there should always be praise for this sort of thing.

Our culture has become extremely centered on mechanics, whether social mechanics and processes of businesses or automation of manufacturing, and to make humans again the center of society will take a lot of effort, but I believe it is a worthy task.

pkamb• 15 years ago

Hope you didn't have anything to do today:

http://fuckyeahmadeinusa.tumblr.com/

js2• 15 years ago

In the same vein, but I found http://devour.com/video/moroccan-woodturner/ a lot more satisfying to watch.

keiferski• 15 years ago

There's a lot of similar material on http://www.coolhunting.com/video

There's actually one about this same guy from 2008: http://www.coolhunting.com/tech/cut-brooklyn-kn.php

ambertch• 15 years ago

These comments are so fascinating because they illustrate with a fair degree of uniformity, the personality profile of the HN crowd.

Two kinds of people we're all aware of: logical/rational vs. emotional/creative. That whole left vs. right brain stuff.

Remember, you need to think with both points of view to tackle the big consumer tech problems (where a looooot of the $$$ is) in the coming years... so

chrislloyd• 15 years ago

There's another great interview with Joel as part of the Chow.com Obsessives series (all of which are worth a look for themselves):

http://www.chow.com/videos#!/show/obsessives/55121/obsessive...

rkalla• 15 years ago

Did anybody else get absolutely electrified when he described working in that warehouse of shops with other creators and how the creative energy was amplifying itself?

That sounds intoxicating. I would love a dev environment like that with a small team. I have experienced this one time professionally in its truest rawest sense... A small team hacking on fun problems. It was phenomenal, literally hopping out of bed in the morning just to get to the office.

Anyone else experience this before? (not necessarily with dev if you have a good story)

webnrrd2k• 15 years ago

I'm a hobby blacksmith, as well as a professional programmer, and I love making physical things, too. This film strikes me in a very personal way. I see a lot of intellectual discussion on this which, while interesting, I think misses the point. This guy found a trade that he really loves, and is making sacrifices for. He's making a living, but he's certainly not getting rich off of it.

I do a lot of different things with blacksmithing, but I've been really getting into kitchen knives, as well as spoons, ladle, forks, cleavers, etc... I like combining copper work with blacksmithing.

I can't tell you how much I enjoy it. Mostly because I like making functional and unique things. There is a great sense of satisfaction that I just don't get from writing code. Also, blacksmithing uses a wonderful combination of technical ability and visual/artistic skills. Also, it's hard to find good friends and a good community that you feel comfortable in.

That film did a good job of expressing the emotional side of making stuff. It really is just a huge amount of fun. Thanks for posting that.

trigger• 15 years ago

Reminds me of the Irish TV series Hands, http://www.irelandstraditionalcrafts.com/ . These programs were shot during the seventies and eighties and record traditional craftsmen at work. It was perfect timing because they were probably the last generation who lived off their trade.

The Knife Maker

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