Why Japan's rail workers can't stop pointing at things (2017)

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/pointing-and-calling-japan-trains

by tosh • 4 years ago

111 50 4 years ago

TheHideout• 4 years ago

Point-Shoot-Operate, this is the same method we use when operating submarine nuclear power plants. Years later I still do it when doing anything hazardous.

aftbit• 4 years ago

Do you have any reference material for this? A quick Google search for "Point-Shoot-Operate" finds nothing. Very fascinating to see this used in the USN!

Nerks234• 4 years ago

The book ‘Turn this ship around’ by L. David Marquet goes into a little bit of detail about this technique and also about managing a nuclear submarine more generally. Great leadership reference!

themodelplumber2• 4 years ago

It's a good psychological operation for anything that requires a bit of extra care. If you're having a stressful day in general it can help to call off your next steps and ensure supportive/guidance structure for your day is available.

(In terms of vehicles, I like to use it when my caffeine is coming up to speed on a long road trip starting in the early am in the desert, when passengers have just fallen back asleep)

Tade0• 4 years ago

On the rare occasion that I have to fill out a paper form, I read it aloud.

Saved me from starting from scratch due to a minor error at least a few times.

nrook• 4 years ago

As mentioned in the article, this technique is used in New York City's subways, too. I have a lot of problems with the MTA, but they're still stellar by American standards.

fjni• 4 years ago

Yosef Lerner and Rose Sacktor made a very funny video taking advantage of that:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9jIsxQNz0M

tootie• 4 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling

It's mentioned in the article, but NYC subway conductors do this too. There's a black and white striped board that indicates where the conductor's window should line up on the platform and they always point to it when stopping at a station.

jonshariat2• 4 years ago

This has already made HN front page twice: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.atlasobscura.com...

Also tosh seems to post many new stories to HN every day. Seems like spam?

dymk• 4 years ago

411 submissions in the last 30 days, no kidding!

The posts don't seem excessively low quality at first glance - indeed a lot of the submissions get at least some discussion / votes. But it does seem like the kind of content that's simply copy/pasted from maybe other aggregators, or selected from previously submitted HN content.

The account is 12 years old, so I'd expect it would have been booted by the mods at this point if it was undesirable.

tosh, is your posting automated?

tosh2• 4 years ago

I'm currently on vacation.

It is not automated but I concede that hn might have become an excessive hobby over time (wait until you see the log of articles I don't submit though! so there is also some curation on my side).

It basically is as simple as: I stumble over something interesting, thinking one thing that would be even better than this is a whole discussion about it, submit, crickets or discussion actually happens.

edit: many (most?) submissions (like this one for example [0]) are actually based on something I read on hn so there is some tree traversal and recursion going on as well now that I think of it.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31272682 (h/t drewzero1)

Thorrez• 4 years ago

Another related URL is

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poka-yoke

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

cjrp• 4 years ago

It would be an apt username, given that tosh is British-slang for rubbish.

munk-a• 4 years ago

I thoroughly enjoyed the article and hadn't seen it before. At the end of the day that seems like a good enough reason for it to be posted.

We do have a flagging system for deserving content, and articles will only reach the front page through user upvoting. If you suspect the user is falsely promoting their content using bot upvotes to farm karma you can contact a mod but otherwise I assume tosh is just curating things folks find interesting.

drewzero1• 4 years ago

This idea was mentioned (and the article linked) in a comment[0] in another thread earlier today, so I'm not surprised to see it posted. My charitable explanation is that OP saw the comment and thought the article deserved its own post/discussion.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31272682

tosh2• 4 years ago

That's why I submitted it! I was just searching for the comment but couldn't find it.

rtkwe• 4 years ago

Once a year isn't bad as reposts go. You get turn over or people that missed it the previous times or there's new conversations around it.

pcurve• 4 years ago

I wonder what goes into deciding what to point. For example, if you watch this clip, you can see the conductor doing 300km pointing at different parts... https://youtu.be/lB4_G9l3mdY?t=158

But I can't quite figure out what.

themodelplumber2• 4 years ago

IIRC they monitor arrival and departure at various levels and times. Speed levels, braking, location @ time, etc. In the video she says "yosh" / "yoshi" after each which is like "(X) is good"

innocenat• 4 years ago

What I can identified in the video:

- point at speedometer to confirm current speed

- point at master control (acceleration control) to confirm zero (likely during dead sections)

- point at clock and timetable to confirm arrival/passing time

The painting at the end is likely to confirm activation of auto-breaking of ATC train control system.

xaedes• 4 years ago

This is a great technique to enhance focus and spot details. After I read about it the first time I thought that must also work for other things. Since then, during particularly hard sessions of of debugging or (code) reading, I use it to physically point at code/text. Sometimes with both hands. It forces me to actually pay attention to the thing I point at. In this way it also helps spotting tokens that would otherwise be skipped, like the double "of" in the third sentence of this comment. Physically following some data, control or logic flow by tracing it out can also help to avoid losing the proverbial "thread".

ed_elliott_asc• 4 years ago

I write or draw it out

xtiansimon• 4 years ago

Yes. Drawings and notebooks.

As a recovering graphic designer I have a penchant for drawing and sketchbooks.

But I’m working a project, it’s always hole punched letter size paper and Uni-ball Micro pens in black ink. Sometimes color is added or thicker black marker for complex diagrams or hierarchy. This way I can scan these pages when the project is over, and throw away the original sketches.

Sometimes a sketch becomes critical and I make a digital version.

For me, the process of sketching and digitizing notes makes the project indelible.

metanoia• 4 years ago

I definitely point and call to myself when doing deploys and running DB migration scripts... just to make sure I'm not changing production when I don't mean to.

avs7332• 4 years ago

I've personally added 'say it out loud' (read or state the decision in a logic flow) loudly and clearly.

another argument against open offices I guess.

ddlatham• 4 years ago

I use this to find a jar in the refrigerator that I know is there somewhere, but somehow I cannot see unless I actually point at each item, one at a time.

bennysomething• 4 years ago

Me too, how strange! I do something very similar, except I look from underneath each shelf as then I can see items that are behind bigger items.

ekanes• 4 years ago

I do this too, though in a scanning motion sort of way, and I swear it helps. A bit slower than just glancing around but you never miss what you're looking for.

bloomingeek• 4 years ago

I operate large chillers and high pressure boilers in two different plants. I started my own point system, as my company doesn't have one. I also count different valves which I have memorized so as to be extra safe. When there's a power failure and I have to bring everything back online, my system is very helpful.

dalmo3• 4 years ago

It's interesting to see this done as a deliberate procedure. I thought everyone did that almost instinctively, as if telling themselves "OK, focus". I certainly do it, except for the vocalising.

Even just doing a generic pointing gesture at nothing when trying to think through something unrelated to the physical world.

I wonder if those trained to do it deliberately are trained to use the right hand regardless of their natural preference, since the left side of the brain is more associated with focus and logical thinking.

dang• 4 years ago

Pointing to past things:

Why Japan’s rail workers point at things (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22922277 - April 2020 (87 comments)

Japan's Rail Workers Pointing at Things (2017) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18952193 - Jan 2019 (107 comments)

Why Japan’s Rail Workers Can’t Stop Pointing at Things - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17552388 - July 2018 (1 comment)

Why Japan’s Rail Workers Point at Things - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14011793 - April 2017 (322 comments)

trelane• 4 years ago

This post is on point.

tomatowurst• 4 years ago

This article is laughable, coming from someone who has lived in Japan, there are lot of superficial processes and forms that the society knows is useless but individuals are powerless to stop it, for instance the idea that coordinated hand eye movement of pointing is contributing to safety, situational awareness (one rail worker was caught playing mobile games and that's just one), its more of a top to bottom bureaucrat culture and thinking. Ton of rail systems/workers outside Japan have impeccable track record too without the stupid pointing gestures.

Japan's strength comes from following the rule to the letter but it also comes with the ridiculous overheads that puts downward pressure on productivity.

I'm sure some westerner will gawk at anything novel, for instance the usage of fax machine and the claim that its secure from vulnerabilities. Yes, paper can't get hacked but the overall disadvantage slows down Japan Inc., and its entering now the 40th year of stagnation and unlikely to improve going forward. In fact, it's already being outclassed by its neighbors who adopted bandwidth and digitization at the turn of the millennia.

This article has absolutely no merit whatsoever, the same attitude can be applied to Japan's worse problems like ijime culture over the slightest things.

worik• 4 years ago

This article has absolutely no merit whatsoever, the same attitude can be applied to Japan's worse problems like ijime culture over the slightest things.

You assert.

Other commentators here describe that they use this system (some invent it for themselves)

Why do you think:

Japan's strength comes from following the rule to the letter but it also comes with the ridiculous overheads that puts downward pressure on productivity.

Any reasons?

avs7332• 4 years ago

The general term is 'pointing and calling' and it is actually used worldwide[0]

As with many things, the action is not designed to eliminate abject non participation but to deal with 'unthinking errors' like wrong site surgeries or taking off without clearance. This article may strike you as gawking but the principle is sound.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing_and_calling#:~:text=I....

mlyle• 4 years ago

for instance the idea that coordinated hand eye movement of pointing is contributing to safety

We have a lot of human factors research showing that proper checklist use involves pointing (and ideally vocalization of the checklist item), resulting in a significant reduction of inadvertent omissions.

It's just way too easy to accidentally get into the rhythm of saying checklist items without doing them, and having to point keeps your attention focused on the item.

Finger-on-instrument-to-point is becoming very common in air transport. It's not universal in rail culture in countries other than Japan, but would probably further reduce errors (as you point out, rail is already very, very safe at baseline). Indeed, the MTA evidence mentioned in the article suggests this.

barefeg• 4 years ago

I always wondered how pilots, while doing checklists, don’t forget to actually check the thing before saying check, given that they repeat this task many times. I can’t recall exactly but there was an accident where the checks were said without actually checking the instruments. I’m guessing using the point method could help with that

storyinmemo• 4 years ago

Flight instructor here and I've totally adopted teaching that. Touch or point because it does happen where you reflexively say something like, "Gear, Down"" and... it's bad if you're wrong.

Airlines (which I don't have personal experience with) do it with a two person cross check.

unionemployee• 4 years ago

Airline pilot here. We point.

deepspace• 4 years ago

They sometimes don't. A Malaysia Airlines A330 took off from Brisbane with the pitot tube covers still on, resulting in no working airspeed indication. Several people missed the covers, despite ostensibly specifically checking for them.

https://simpleflying.com/pitot-probe-covers-remain-in-place-...

qwezxcrty• 4 years ago

Such techniques are also implemented in Chinese national rail and virtually every subway system (which is now arguably the most complex on the world albeit suffering from under-educated employees). It certainly have some merits.

I also personally feel it's useful for some repeative but critically important tasks. Now I have the habit of pointing at the all the lasers/amplifiers while checking them are off before leaving my lab.

wwilim• 4 years ago

I do that in order not to forget whether I've switched the light off in my storage room in the condo before locking it. If I don't do it, I get doubts halfway up the stairs and I have to come back to unlock it and check again.

Another thing I use it for is packing critical items such as diabetes medications for a vacation.

kstrauser• 4 years ago

I have a "Going to..." template that I copy for every trip, and I check off each item or action as I've packed or done them. It's a huge stress reliever.

Acen• 4 years ago

I've used something similar to this pointing technique when mixing live sound for bands I'm not familiar with.

Standing somewhere in the audience space and listening for & looking at each person on stage individually to ensure they're part of the mix.

Maybe I should implement something physical. Though pointing at the band would usually make them stop and ask what I'm needing

slaymaker1907• 4 years ago

This can also work great with production system management of software. Any data you need for decision making/verification should be captured via screenshot/copying data (Word is great for this); and before you do any action, you say what you are going to do (or write out the terminal command) so that a buddy can verify what you are doing.

nicbou• 4 years ago

I use that technique a lot, and it's really effective.

I use it to pack my luggage against a list, and I use it when loading the motorbike. Panniers mounted properly? Check. Panniers locked? Check. Fuel? Check. Helmet? Check. Phone charging? Check. Let's roll!

I actually touch the things as I go through the list. Learning this trick earlier would have saved me a lot of trouble. A few years ago, I left my registration papers on the scanner plate and only noticed some 1,500km from home, at a border crossing. Now I touch everything on the packing list as it gets packed.

muixoozie• 4 years ago

Reminds me of how speed runner Arcus plays adding verbal sound effects. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u1tVD7UEqw&t=1283

Why Japan's rail workers can't stop pointing at things (2017)

Related Stories