Petty Thieves Plague San Francisco. ‘These Last Two Years Have Been Insane.’

https://www.wsj.com/articles/crime-san-francisco-petty-thieves-small-businesses-11647797642

by erehweb • 4 years ago

52 85 4 years ago

wsj.com

jamghee• 4 years ago

Anecdotally I have been hearing this from colleagues in SF

nkurz2• 4 years ago

https://archive.is/WlnP3

throw_m239339• 4 years ago

Some former police officials said in interviews that officers don’t feel it is worth making an arrest in low-level cases because they assume the district attorney won’t file charges. They also point to a statewide ballot measure passed in 2014—Proposition 47—that raised the dollar amount at which theft can be prosecuted as a felony from $400 to $950.

https://archive.fo/WlnP3

sokoloff3• 4 years ago

I read that as "I'm not going to do my job, because this other group isn't doing their job."

I guess any city gets roughly the government they want/deserve/tolerate.

giantg28• 4 years ago

This is extremely common in most big cities if you talk to the police about their opinions.

robertlagrant2• 4 years ago

They aren't the government. But if you detect crimes that are not prosecuted, you probably aren't going to get anything out of it, including a criminal brought to justice, so why bother?

germinalphrase2• 4 years ago

There are “strong rumors” that police officers up here in Minneapolis have been engaging in a ‘soft strike’ by refusing to leave the precinct or not answering calls. It’s framed as a defensive action intended to communicate “let’s remind everyone why they needs us”.

Finnucane• 4 years ago

Despite the focus on SF, this is a national issue.

https://www.themarshallproject.org/2017/08/09/what-s-the-pun...

sgt• 4 years ago

What San Fransischam needs is a hero. Someone to fill up Alcatraz.

IfOnlyYouKnew2• 4 years ago

Are we at the stage already where people no longer hide their fascist strongman fantasies of righteous, indiscriminate violence?

wyclif3• 4 years ago

San Francisco clearly needs Batman.

WalterBright3• 4 years ago

It's coming to Seattle, too. Thieves smashed several of Nordstrom's windows at $50,000 apiece. Small businesses are simply giving up and leaving.

I expect it won't be long before storefronts sprout rollup steel shields that extend from the pavement up and cover the complete storefront. That's what businesses do in Brazil.

Amazon is abandoning one of its downtown buildings because the employees don't feel safe there anymore.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/citing-crime-concerns-...

giantg28• 4 years ago

"Small businesses are simply giving up and leaving."

It's already tough enough dealing with all the tax, regulation, competing with large corporations and the internet etc. I can't imagine wanting to stay in business to deal with multiple burglaries and thefts, with the associated costs of security improvements and insurance premiums.

grumple• 4 years ago

Businesses already do that in many American cities.

WalterBright3• 4 years ago

In Seattle, inside the banks, the tellers are separated from the customers by armored glass and sliding trays.

On the other side of Lake Washington, there are no such shields.

That kinda says it all.

the_cat_kittles2• 4 years ago

so what do you propose as a solution

toomuchtodo• 4 years ago

Prosecuting petty crime with a (legitimate, funded, and measured effectiveness) diversion path for anyone who isn’t an egregious reoffender.

“Stop! Or I’ll say stop again!” Is not a successful strategy. Three strikes is excessively punitive, but neither does allowing rampant crime to continue unabated.

giantg28• 4 years ago

I'm not sure there's a single solution.

On one hand we need to ensure people feel like a part of the system and have a chance at a decent job. If you know you don't have a chance then your more likely to act outside the acceptable system. That can help on the prevention side.

On the other side, it's pretty bad that police can't pursue thieves. Perhaps allowing law enforcement to pursue criminals and store/property owners to detain criminals.

So positive encouragement with feeling part of system and hope for a better life, with negative reinforcement of catching and prosecuting offenders (and not having criminal/civil policies that imped that).

perihelions• 4 years ago

- "I expect it won't be long before storefronts sprout rollup steel shields that extend from the pavement up and cover the complete storefront. That's what businesses do in Brazil."

Afghanistan too. It's a jarring contrast to see heavy steel walls installed on mud (?) brick; those must have been carefully thought-out expenses.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2022/03/15/world/asia/af... (on pages 15 and 21; not linkable)

ayngg• 4 years ago

It is across the country at this point. IIRC Gascón, the former DA in SF is now the DA in LA and pursuing similar policies, while there are similar policies implemented or being implemented in other cities like Chicago and New York.

People will blame the police, but I think this is a symptom of far greater issues in society, whose costs have been offloaded leaving the police to (poorly) manage it because that's probably the best they can do and everyone else is too busy avoiding culpability.

germinalphrase2• 4 years ago

We do seem to lay a lot at the feet of police officers and teachers to fix.

slg6• 4 years ago

Property crimes declined in San Francisco during the first year of the pandemic, but rose 13% in 2021.

There is an ongoing national narrative about how shoplifting and petty theft has been out of control and yet the numbers rarely back up this narrative. A two year stretch in which the numbers dropped then bounced back up by 13% is not "insane" by any stretch of the imagination.

gjsman-10005• 4 years ago

Is it really 13%, or...

A. The city has incentive to hide the actual numbers[1], and B. Most business owners don't bother anymore with reporting, because what's the point?

I'd say it's probably a combination of the above.

Edit: [1]Because it is an election year. High crime looks bad.

ceejayoz5• 4 years ago

The city has incentive to hide the actual numbers...

... and cops have an incentive to overstate them.

kklimonda• 4 years ago

Aren't most stores insured, and if so wouldn't this data be available due to insurance claims?

QuikAccount3• 4 years ago

I don't believe the data is accurate simply because most crime of this level is not reported because the victims accurately believe nothing will happen.

slg6• 4 years ago

Do businesses not have insurance? Does this insurance not ask for a police report?

whimsicalism• 4 years ago

Clearly the data is inaccurate so guess we have to go by our gut that this is an increasing problem?

I don't know, definitely don't trust myself to not notice something a lot more when it becomes a big thing in the media.

Why do you think there has been this sudden uptick in under-reporting? When did it start?

mcphage• 4 years ago

But that’s probably always been true.

IfOnlyYouKnew2• 4 years ago

That idea-whatever its merits—wouldn’t explain statistics holding steady during a rise in actual crimes. Unless people are drastically less likely to report crime than in the past, for which there is zero evidence.

It’s just used when actual data doesn’t confirm what people want to be true.

awillen• 4 years ago

The numbers are based off what gets reported. Nobody reports anything in San Francisco any more. It's subpar work on the part of the WSJ not to understand that, but when calling the police is a waste of time, the numbers aren't going to reflect reality.

ryoshu• 4 years ago

If you don't report the problem the problem won't get fixed. This is for social issues as well as software issues.

drewcoo• 4 years ago

2022 is an election year. Crime is a perennial wedge issue.

micromacrofoot5• 4 years ago

wage theft still vastly eclipses all retail theft, yet gets far fewer headlines… ask yourself why whenever you see the retail theft reporting hysteria

the people stealing from retail have very likely had more of their labor stolen than they’re lifting (it’s likely true for you too)

https://fair.org/home/shoplifting-is-big-news-stealing-milli...

https://www.epi.org/publication/wage-theft-bigger-problem-fo...

bcj7393nsk• 4 years ago

wage theft still vastly eclipses all retail theft, yet gets far fewer headlines… ask yourself why whenever you see the retail theft reporting hysteria

Try to stop wage theft, get an unproductive conversation, or worse, get fired.

Try to stop petty crime, get assaulted, or worse, get killed.

There’s a reason no one gives a shit about wage theft: they simply don’t care.

micromacrofoot5• 4 years ago

Funny that the companies reporting high volumes of retail theft are the same ones often perpetrating wage theft. CVS, for example, has paid out over $100 million in wage theft settlements.

https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/cvs-health

giantg28• 4 years ago

"the people stealing from retail have very likely had more of their labor stolen than they’re lifting"

I'm skeptical of that. Do you have any info on the demographics and work history of the perpetrators? I'd imagine that many are younger and may not have worked enough to have this be true.

Even then, I doubt they're stealing from the company that stole from them, and it doesn't make it right.

micromacrofoot5• 4 years ago

CVS alone has paid $100 million in wage theft settlements

https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/parent/cvs-health

A single walgreens theft recently resulted in hundreds of news reports… walgreens’ multi-million wage theft settlement? outrageously less coverage

robertlagrant2• 4 years ago

I can't tell from that epi page what the percentages are. Some of it is pressuring people to stay late with no chance of overtime, which is "time theft" not "wage theft", for example.

jdkee• 4 years ago

If your local prosecutor will not prosecute low-level crimes then the threshold for acceptable behaviour deteriorates further and further. See Cook County’s failed experiment with bail reform and electronic monitoring of violent offenders.

loeg2• 4 years ago

The point of bail isn't to keep people who shouldn't be released in prison solely because of their inability to pay -- it's to help ensure people who are safe to release show up for their trial. People that should not be released on low bail shouldn't have higher bail -- they should not be granted bail at all.

drewwwwww2• 4 years ago

when the collective no longer seems interested in providing basic guarantees, the individuals will turn on each other. not because of a moral failing, but rather morality is a function of incentives.

the sf city government is a failed-state kleptocracy beholden to the inertia of the political machine and rich landowners who shortsightedly vote against their own interests, in a massive region with no regional governance, in a state kneecapped by antitax demagogues abusing the initiative process, in a nation whose already rickety performance under decades of neoliberal austerity and privatization was then intentionally reduced to rubble by a TV star, and his replacement has pudding brain.

sokoloff3• 4 years ago

a state kneecapped by antitax demagogues

Is California known for low taxes or being anti-tax? I don’t live there, but as an outsider, I have the exact opposite impression.

This puts it at the 10th highest overall tax burden: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-bur...

drewwwwww2• 4 years ago

I was referring to Prop 13, specifically

armchairhacker• 4 years ago

HN probably won’t like this, but facial recognition might be solution here.

When a thief steals something from a shop or damages property window, the cashiers can’t (and shouldn’t) try to stop them. But they can get a video recording of the evidence. If they upload the recording to a shared database, other security cameras can recognize the criminal and match them with other crimes.

In theory, if someone accidentally steals $3 of goods or something it’s not worth doing anything, so normal people shouldn’t be affected by this. I imagine repeat offenders commit the majority of petty theft and they would be the targets: the recordings would be used to stack up charges and figure out their patterns, and eventually police would be pre-alerted to catch them in the act.

In practice I have no idea. But considering how much companies spend on security systems, and petty theft is a real issue, I bet some are looking into this kind of thing.

throwaway0a5e3• 4 years ago

Implementing SkyNet(TM) isn't going to solve the fact that there is no political will to prosecute petty property crime.

Lammy• 4 years ago

Yeah yeah, widespread human suffering, homelessness, blah blah blah whatever — won't somebody get their priorities straight and please think of the Property Crime instead??

wmf• 4 years ago

Is San Francisco stuck in a situation where they only want to address the root of the problem but they don't have nearly enough money to do that so they do nothing?

Overtonwindow• 4 years ago

We’ve had a few years now of this escalating behavior in San Francisco. It would seem logical that voters would blame their elected representatives, and vote them out, but they haven’t. What could be the explanation for this? Is there a general sense that this is just city life? Or is it something more philosophical about the lives of those who commit crimes?

wyclif3• 4 years ago

Why is this flagged? I swear, I'm getting so tired of HN allowing any story critical of San Francisco to be flagged into oblivion.

Petty Thieves Plague San Francisco. ‘These Last Two Years Have Been Insane.’

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