Ask HN: Where would you start looking for development clients?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29129148

by holistio • 5 years ago

73 32 5 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

Disclaimer: This is not a sales pitch, I'm not trying to finds clients here.

After years of freelancing / contracting, during the last few projects a nice fellowship of 2-3 (mostly frontend) developers has formed around me. We have worked on some rather serious projects, I am confident regarding what we can offer.

I see all the "who's hiring" posts, but our biggest project is soon coming to an end and I'm almos clueless regarding where I should start looking for companies who would want to contract a small company for custom development services.

We are too small and our projects are usually too long for us to hire a dedicated salesperson.

What are some common ways you've found to work to find new clients?

GianFabien• 5 years ago

I find my clients by networking and leveraging of successful completed projects. For example, if I just completed a project automating some aspect of a travel agency (yes they still exist). Then we contact all other travel agencies in our area and offer to solve the same problem for them or something similar. If the completed project is in the area of a common business area, e.g. follow-up for contract renewals, then we would look at other industries with a similar issue, pick the most likely one and then call those.

We have tried using sales people and they generally don't know enough about our solutions nor the clients' problems to conduct consultative sales process. And asking for referrals is a key part of the discussions that you conduct with past clients as well as prospects who say "no thanks".

SantiagoQ• 5 years ago

Yes niching or narrowing down is usually the most effective way. For example I do 5-hour week consulting to pre-seed startups as a Fractional CTO. My value proposition is: I guide non-technical founders take their startups from pre-seed to seed and I focus on the Mexican market. In less than a year I'm already well established in the niche and I even go further by specializing in AI startups.

My job is usually building a team and mentoring more junior developers. Also, participate in product design, assuring what they try to build is feasible, cost effective and meets the goals.

Besides founders, me relevant network include family offices & angel investors, startup mentors & accelerators and college professors & junior developers.

If I wanted more work, I would offer developing personalized newsletters for seed startups charging a higher hourly rate. But I rather wait, and let some of my customers grow.

TekMol2• 5 years ago

On Upwork.

I know marketplaces are seen negatively by many here on HN. But I think this approach to work makes total sense.

It is just the most logical thing on multiple levels. First, a structured database of supply and demand. Of freelancers with all their skills and of jobs with all their attributes. Second, to have a standard way to collaborate. All invoices look the same, all reporting looks the same. Makes collaboration so much smoother. Starting a contract is a click. Work gets invoiced automatically. Invoices get paid automatically.

ahartmetz3• 5 years ago

Isn't the problem with these marketplaces that most projects are for like $5/hour, while rates for "real professionals" are more like $100/hour and (sometimes way) up?

TekMol2• 5 years ago

I am not sure if I understand your point correctly. Are you implying that clients only hire beginners on UpWork?

I am hiring there and I certainly have to pay way more than $5 per hour. My experience is that the price for software development starts at about $25/hour. That is for a student with a little bit of experience and rather low morale. Devs with actual work experience start at about $50 per hour. Again, morale will be kinda low at that price. For a really smart, motivated dev with a lot of experience, you have to pay more.

dreadpiratebob• 5 years ago

There is most definitely a higher end market on upwork. I freelance part time there, at between $95 and $299 per hour. (The low rate for stuff that buffs my resume, the high one for deep expertise).

I wrote an article about getting decent rates a while back...

https://highestpayinggigs.com/how-to-get-started-on-upwork/

dustingetz2• 5 years ago

It's hard because buyers (midsize+ company executives who can spend 1M+/yr) who are good at software don't need outside help, so you're really looking for buyers who are not good at software and they hang out at Medicaid summits, not Javascript meetups. To fix this you need a "rainmaker" and that person is the CEO. Since you don't have that person yet, you need to either market yourself to try to attract that person to you, or become that person yourself which is a career change. Of course this is hard, because obviously nobody is handing out million dollar contracts for free. The lifetime value of being a rainmaker is in the 100s of millions of dollars of cashflow, so to beat your competitors you might expect to invest quite a lot even to just get the first few small contracts (which then feed back into your qualifications and help you grow). Also note that the contracts may be unpleasant, the buyers with the money are not hot startups with best practices, but rather lumbering enterprises with decaying systems who have done everything exactly wrong (they don't understand software, remember?)

ravitation2• 5 years ago

This is all true, but the "rainmaker" doesn't have to be the CEO, or just one person, or even work at the company. An alternative is to find an external "rainmaker," an example that I've often seen is small consulting firms that focus on things other than development (e.g. design or organization), or focus on a different type of development (e.g. CAD/CAE), that need reliable partners to bring onto their own projects.

This is probably less good long term, but it depends on what you're trying to do as a development shop, and doesn't necessitate career changes.

dustingetz2• 5 years ago

external rainmakers will exfiltrate huge chunks of cashflow from the company which is almost your entire profit margin, you really want the rainmaker to be paid in equity (in this case, ownership of the quals/brand/trust which is an asset that can be sold)

iforgetti• 5 years ago

This is the right answer (at least in our case).

I used to be a freelancer and now I run a 180 person development group. Our path was similar to this. In order to become the rainmaker you need to understand the problems the customers are trying to solve and you need to meet a lot of them (think 100x the number you might want to serve). You need to build meaningful connections with each of them. This is a grind so you must learn to enjoy it otherwise you won’t have the stamina.

Additionally you need to be excellent at delivering software.

towelpluswater2• 5 years ago

Takes years, many years, of networking, and investing back into your network. Know someone who was let go and needs help finding a job? Help them find a job. This might turn into something in 3 months, maybe a year, maybe never, but it's a game of numbers.

Like any good long-term investment, you have to keep nurturing it. Continuously stay in touch with people you meet.

If you do it right, the leads come to you through natural conversations, and you don't even feel like you're selling. Without the relationships already in place, everything feels like selling, and it's exhausting and significantly harder to land strategic project work. There's no magic here, and no book or course that will tell you the secret (it's mostly snakeoil) - it just takes time and effort. It gets easier when some of these relationships lead to real opportunities, you show well, and can use that for referrals into other places as the people you meet move around.

Another route for early starters is to subcontract through established consulting firms. Our company is more of an FTE model, but when we need specific / niche skills that we don't always have in house, we consider subcontracting options. If that's something you're interested in (we're US based), I'd be happy to chat (email in profile) and see if there's anything coming up.

jasonswett2• 5 years ago

When I used to freelance I divided my marketing activities into two categories: "hunting" and "farming".

Hunting tactics include things like responding to job board ads, reaching out to people you know to see if they can help you find a gig, or going to a conference to try to find a new client. Like real hunting, hunting for clients can be fast, but it’s only successful a fraction of the time, and you don’t always get something good.

Farming tactics include things like writing blog posts, writing books, speaking at local meetups, speaking at conferences, guesting on podcasts, hosting podcasts, and other things that demonstrate your technical competence to a (if done successfully) large number of people. Farming can yield much better results than hunting, but there can be quite a long interval between the time you plant the seed and the time you get to reap the harvest. And just like in real farming, not all the seeds you plant will sprout into plants that bear fruit.

In my experience, farming tends to yield better clients than hunting, although you can't control when the clients are going to come.

I hate to say it but I think your safest bet is for you and your colleagues to each go your separate way (for now) and find contract gigs individually. In my experience it's really hard to find a client who wants to hire multiple people at once. The easiest kind of client to find is a software organization that needs a programmer and is willing to use a contractor rather than a full-time employee.

And BTW, the sad secret I learned about freelancing over the course of ~8 years doing it is that 99% of freelancers are just staff-aug contractors. They're not making great money and they don't have a special lifestyle. The only difference between most freelancers and regular employees is that the freelancers file 1099s instead of W-2s. Not trying to be a downer about it but I think it's helpful to acknowledge the reality of it.

Lastly, I've been asked many times how to get freelance clients, so I wrote a post about it here: https://www.jasonswett.net/my-advice-to-brand-new-freelance-...

Hope that helps.

towelpluswater2• 5 years ago

I'd agree. Staff aug roles for individual freelancers are always easier to find, but good luck getting a team of those unless you're a more established firm - plus, the rate and work isn't all that great. We avoid them as much as possible.

Sell project work that's strategic (ie: solving a business problem and coming with a solution), as opposed to 'We need a frontend developer for 12 months'. Better rates, opportunities to work with business instead of IT, etc.

jasonswett2• 5 years ago

Agreed. Although I think the reason why most freelancers sell staff aug work as opposed to what you might call "strategic project work" is that it's about 100X easier (at least in my experience) to find staff aug work.

HeyLaughingBoy• 5 years ago

I worked in a team management/IC role at an engineering services company that tried to do staff augmentation, custom software/hardware design and their own products. I found that to be the worst of all worlds since there was a constant struggle for resources between those three "worlds." You'd get a client who had a project that was big enough to need three people, but because two of your guys were on a 1-year contract at $BIGCO, you either couldn't take on the project or had to tell the client they'd need to wait a year. At the same time, you don't make that much profit on the staff aug. to be worth it (IMO). The main attraction to staff augmentation is that you have a steady stream of income for a year or two from that placement.

However, when we stuck to our core competency in wearables/wireless devices, we had lots of return business and could complete projects more efficiently.

What I learned from the experience is that providing engineering services or freelancing can be very profitable, but you really need to specialize. Specialization allows you to become expert at doing a few things, which leads to more accurate time/effort estimates while being able to charge the same price or more (can charge a premium for being fast) as it takes you less time to complete a job. Trying to be everything to everyone, OTOH, means you're constantly churning while figuring out a brand new technology.

tl/dr:

Specialize and don't charge hourly.

discordance• 5 years ago

Recruit someone at a larger consultancy to work with you. Have see the finders fee being around 30% in the past.

k__2• 5 years ago

I found my first clients in job boards.

The next clients, I got by referal (friends/clients).

Later, after blogging for some time, CEOs/VPs made me offers via email.

But getting started and making good money only took a few months.

cutler2• 5 years ago

Which job boards and at what rate? Who was your blog aimed at?

k__2• 5 years ago

Don't know anymore.

I simply searched a bit around on Google, browsed some random job boards I found and wrote a few emails.

My rate back then was 5000€ a month.

My blog is mostly development education. Frontend, mobile, APIs, cloud, DevOps, crypto, etc.

Jugurtha• 5 years ago

We're a tiny boutique consultancy but we build end to end machine learning products for very large organizations. The CEO is our sales guy. We get referrals and he leverages his network to find projects. He also teaches a course in university and writes in a newspaper, and we get inbound requests.

Recently, however, we built our own machine learning platform (MLOps, for the buzzword) to be able to execute these projects and build these products faster and more systematically. We did that because they took a long time before and required certain profiles that are rare, and the way we were going about it had too many bottlenecks and risks.

We also refined the process of doing these projects, especially with scoping, understanding the jobs to be done and non-consumption, and involving the actual people we were building for, not just talking with the execs/management. We had to insist. This lead to "repeat business" and reduced the need to always be prospecting. In other words: make your clients happy and you'll work together again, and the next projects will be more important and you'll amortize the time it took to build the trust because you're practically colleagues. I.e: compounding.

You need some or all of:

- Finding new clients

- Charging more or finding clients who can pay more.

- Doing more projects with the same clients

- Improving your processes so projects take less time

- Re-selling the same product your built for a client to other clients, and amortize a codebase

- Building a product for a sector/vertical/role

- Improve your tooling

- Productize yourself so you can sell items or a bundle, as opposed or in addition to selling your time.

cutler2• 5 years ago

Here's one strategy for solo freelancers. Search Google with

    site:*.com/contact.php or site:*.com/contact.asp

If you want something more local you can try:

    site:*.co.uk/contact.php intitle:Bedford

This will tend to produce old sites developed with raw PHP or classic ASP and which aren't responsive. Even so, a direct email offering to fix/upgrade won't usually get a reply but an initial customer enquiry has a much better chance after which you can segway into offering services.

mooreds• 5 years ago

Who have you worked with in the past? That'd be my go to. Hopefully they are thrilled with your work.

Reach out and ask them: "do you know anyone who needs some help? We have some availability coming up." This lets them think about who in their network might need some extra hands (or if they themselves need help) without putting them on the spot.

Don't only ask your current contact at past clients, but also anyone you worked with. LinkedIn is your friend here.

You don't need a formal referral program, but it is much easier to work with someone you've worked with before rather than convince someone who doesn't know you that you can solve their problems.

Teichopsia• 5 years ago

Disclaimer: I have theoretical knowledge, not practical experience.

....And at the same time there isn't enough information to give a "proper" recommendation. i.e., how did you get your past customers? Who is your customer (persona)? Do you have a value proposition?

Since it sounds like you are pressed, ask your current client and your past clients for referrals. Be specific when asking (if he/she knows any friends, family, customers, etc). This will open up their mind to think of many possibilities.

If business is slow, what else can you offer to old customers and new customers?

Book recommendations: Gap selling Predictable prospecting Overdeliver Traction Understanding SEO

Choose one book and when you have outgrown that book, choose another.

codegeek• 5 years ago

The best way is to let clients find YOU instead of the other way around. This is hard but not that hard. Optimal ways in that order:

1. You have an online presence (blog, youtube tutorials etc) and you have done quality content (which takes a little time but again not that hard if you focus). You will start getting inbound queries.

2. You cannot figure how or are too lazy to do #1. Your next bet is to join a marketplace where they do the marketing for you (well to an extent). Places like upwork and yes they are nt all a race to the bottom but you may have to start from it (again because you cannot figure out #1 above).You may have to do a few projects for cheap but once you build some reputation, you will start seeing progress. You can increase your rates slowly. And yes, people hire on upwork for $100/Hour as well but you gotta earn that.

3. You apply to jobs and reach out to people on your own. Mostly a crap shoot and the laziest way and hence the least effective way because there is a lot of noise in this step (everyone else is doing this).

As a client, I look for youtube tutorials on topics or just do google search. If I find someone that i like, I reach out to them directly. This got me to hire a Go Developer once where I aid him $10K plus for a project. But he writes and writes well. Explains concepts that I cared about. Heck, he even published a book. He didn't need to sell any further.

Irongirl1• 5 years ago

I'm assuming you know all your numbers right?

If this were me, I think I'd start the marketplace you need to exist.

The work you do has a number and I'm guessing that it starts with Millions so your marketplace needs to reflect that in it's branding.

This reminds of something I read about Crew. I'll try and find the original story, but generally the founder was running out of money/customers etc and started a side project you may have heard of called: UnSplash.

So start the Marketplace you need. a place for customers looking for front end work upto $X or whatever. Then let Google do your prospecting. I mean use SEO etc.

JSeymourATL• 5 years ago

First, get clarity around what an ideal target client looks like for you.

Think in terms of industry/vertical/market, etc… The more detailed, the better.

Who is the likely “economic buyer” of your services—- Think about their titles/positions.

Now, jump on LinkedIn — sort for people. Drill in on the individual profiles that stand out as likely prospects.

Create a Top 10 list. That is to say prospective clients that look interesting, people/companies who you can likely help.

Reach out to them directly for a introductory/discovery conversation.

Go Get’em!

* If you feel you want more help on this, feel free to reach out. DM me.

Ask HN: Where would you start looking for development clients?

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