Building a high quality audio system [video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b2IOOhJmxw

by brudgers • 5 years ago

115 71 5 years ago

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

Well, I'll take that guy's system over mine for sure.

However....!

For those unfamiliar with the hobby I'd like to mention something, however: you can have an objectively very good system for not too much money.

The research of (among others) Dr. Floyd Toole (formerly of Harman International) makes a very persuasive case that the "best" audio system is simply one that reproduces the input signal accurately, both on- and off-axis. There's no secret sauce, really. It's all in the measurements.

This can be achieved rather affordably. Monitors from JBL (a Harman company) and Kali (former Harman engineers) such as the JBL 305/306/308 and competing models from Kali were built around these principles and accomplish this starting at prices of several hundred $USD.

While formerly "audiophiles" were associated with snake oil and unlimited budgets, there are growing legions of those who subscribe to a more objectivist take on the hobby.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com (I have no affiliation) is one place to find such reviews and discussions.

I'm not an expert but have been in the hobby for a while and would be happy to answer questions if anybody's had interest in the hobby but hasn't known where/how to get started.

smackeyacky2• 5 years ago

The snake oil victims really turned me off conversing with other hi fi hobbyists. Pseudo-science about cables, ethernet hubs for audio, utter nonsense about jitter. Endless arguments about blind testing and the "your ears aren't good enough to appreciate the sound that I can hear" sniffery and veiled snobbery. The insufferable Stereophile magazine and the nonsense it continues to peddle. Horrifying.

Dave_Rosenthal• 5 years ago

Yeah, I've always loved music and good audio, but I pretty much gave up on the hobby for a decade or two because the main sources of information (i.e. industry magazines) were so absurdly pseudo-science. But, as the grandparent of this post points out, there has been a real renaissance of information and discussion on the internet that isn't bought and paid for by snake oil salesmen and it's the best time ever to get a great audio system for little money.

A bunch of Chinese companies (Topping, etc.) have actually jumped on the objectivist bandwagon are cranking out (relatively) inexpensive DACs, amps, etc. that are world-leading in measured performance (at any price).

Like everything internet, the 'objectivist' audiophile world can be a bit of an echo chamber, but real progress is being made towards non-trivial questions like how one should measure the performance of headphones and speakers, what the ideal actually is, and what deviations from that ideal make the most difference.

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

Same here. It's why I avoided the hobby for years and years.

Those magazines like Stereophile were caught in an unavoidable spiral. They were reliant on advertising dollars from the snake-oil peddlers.

The good news is, you would not be alone in the hobby these days - there's a really robust segment of the hobby who holds that snake oil stuff in utter contempt. AudioScienceReview is a good objectivist community; NYT/Wirecutter's audio coverage is commendably reality-based, and so on.

stef253• 5 years ago

They have to balance things like audio being delivered by streaming mp3s from phones to a tv's built in speakers. Something I encountered at a party, equally horrifying.

Too many people measure the quality of their audio by how much bass comes out of their oddly shaped bluetooth speakers and are excited about the built-in light show it provides.

js24• 5 years ago

Harman regularly runs sales on the Studio 5 series and Infinity Reference series at practically give-away prices. And there has been almost no shortage during the pandemic either. They must've built thousands of these and have them all in a huge warehouse in Kentucky.

I mean it's ridiculous. I purchased these for $700/pair earlier this year and now they are on sale for $600/pair:

https://www.jbl.com/loudspeakers/STUDIO+580.html

They just had the R253 on sale for $300/pair last week but they sold through them all (for now):

https://www.harmanaudio.com/loudspeakers/REFERENCE+253.html

The Spinorama data from ASR and other sources is online here:

https://pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/

Another site that collects these charts:

https://speakerdata2034.blogspot.com/

Finally, measuring subwoofers is a separate endeavor:

https://audioxpress.com/article/cta-2010-a-better-way-to-mea...

Collected in this Google Sheet:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/s...

KennyBlanken2• 5 years ago

$100 off a $700 pair of speakers is not "practically give-away prices."

rektide• 5 years ago

this has been a priceless set of reads/links tyvm

IgorPartola3• 5 years ago

As it happens, tonight j was researching upgrades to my motorcycle’s audio system and learning things about frequency response, crossover, headroom, etc. Here are the questions I have yet to answer:

1. Will using a higher power amp with higher power and somewhat higher quality speakers give me more clarity of sound? I don’t care for loud as much as being able to hear the music.

2. Is there any point in installing a subwoofer on a motorcycle? The reason I ask is that it seems as though in order to properly install and integrate a sub you need a housing for it that won’t resonate with it or make any sounds of movement, creaking, etc. That seems rather impossible where you might normally install it: fiberglass saddlebags or the trunk/tour pack. Also, won’t the engine and exhaust noise simply drown out the bass?

3. If no sub, then how long should frequencies on a 2 component speaker go? I have a choice of 60-80Hz as the lower limit.

4. Can non-marine grade speakers be made waterproof on the output side?

5. The amp I have says it strongly prefers RCA/line input over speaker level high input. Why is that? Also, my stock radio doesn’t have line level output. Should I get an external high level to line level adapter or try the one built into the amp?

Will any of this compare to my Bose QC35s?

chucksta3• 5 years ago

1) it will give you clarity at a louder level

2) thats kinda personal, I would say no. Subs also benefit from the enclosed car. I guess anything is possible though. Plus your on a motorcycle, its going to travel a lot more.

3) you're overthinking it, you're on a motorcycle

4) not that i'm aware of, but I don't really know, i'm sure it's possible.

5) Hi level is more prone to pick up interference. I don't quite understand the second part, hi level is radio output to the speaker. Don't really understand that part either

6?) sound quality? No you're on a motorcycle. Wearing them instead? I feel like there are other reasons you shouldn't

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

    Will using a higher power amp with higher 
    power and somewhat higher quality speakers 
    give me more clarity of sound?

Vast simplification, but: amplifiers sound more or less equally good until pushed to their limits, at which point they distort and sound bad. A 3W amp played at low volumes won't sound any better or worse than a 3,000W amp at equally low levels.

Small differences in wattage between amplifiers can be ignored.

To sound twice as loud to the human ear, you need 10x the amplifier power. Literally. Like a lot of our sensory organs the ears function on a more or less logarithmic scale. Or, you can use more sensitive speakers.

This is for indoor use, but you can play around with the numbers here to get an idea of the difference that amplifier output and speaker sensitivity make when it comes to actual sound pressure levels: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

Perhaps even more importantly, manufacturers lie liberally about the power produced by their amplifiers. Car audio is especially bad about this. They advertise a "3,000W" amp -- but it generally only produces this power for a millisecond and it does so at ridiculously high distortion levels.

This guy tests audio amps, typically car audio amps, and can tell you their actual output: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGW-qPM8-xJE4-uSLA5BAGQ

     Is there any point in installing a subwoofer on a motorcycle?

I don't have any experience with motorcycle audio whatsoever, but it takes a LOT of power and BIG speakers to produce bass in open spaces. A 12" subwoofer that is deafening in a car or living room won't sound loud in an open field. I suspect a motorcycle would be closer to the latter.

But, I guess just research what others have done with their bikes.

    If no sub, then how long should frequencies on a 2 component 
    speaker go? I have a choice of 60-80Hz as the lower limit.

Neither is very deep. It's just hard to make bass in open spaces. The lowest string on a bass guitar with standard tuning is about 40hz, though most music is mastered to sound good on speakers that don't go that deep.

    Can non-marine grade speakers be made waterproof on the output side?

That sounds impossible to me. To be waterproof you need a completely sealed enclosure and that rules out most speakers. Most non-weather proof speakers have ports (air holes) because it's the only way they can produce bass from a small size. But some sealed speakers have passive radiators instead of ports which accomplish the same thing.

    Will any of this compare to my Bose QC35s?

Not even close.

jrace• 5 years ago

Your best audio on a motorcyle will be with "In Ear Monitors" and a personal audio player (like a phone or ipod).

These will have the benefit of also reducing wind and engine noises.

But will come with a safety issue.

stef253• 5 years ago

JBL 305

You mean LSR305? Have those sitting on my desk.

js24• 5 years ago

305P Mk ii, its current iteration (LSR305 was discontinued a few years back):

https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/jbl-l...

deeblering4• 5 years ago

Yeah the JBL 305 is a kickass powered monitor, esp for the price. Pair that with a preamp and some rca -> trs cables and you’ve got a seriously good sounding setup.

enaaem2• 5 years ago

I have a question. Do amps matter? As long as it is not clipping and it is designed to not color the sound.

dsr_2• 5 years ago

Yes and no.

A competently designed and implemented amp should be indistinguishable from any other competently designed and implemented amp in their operating ranges.

Not all amps are competently designed and implemented. Price is not a good indication; there are very cheap well-made amps and very expensive lousy amps, and vice-versa.

Here's a fairly recent comparison of two amps specifically chosen to highlight differences:

https://archimago.blogspot.com/2021/08/summer-musings-no-not...

The frequency response delta graph shows differences of 5dB at many different ranges; an average person can reliably hear 3dB differences without training.

That said, the vast majority of speakers have frequency responses with much larger swings than many amps, and much higher distortion.

rusteh1• 5 years ago

I'd be curious to see the typical rate of hearing degradation due to age graphed against typical income growth with age that would be required to support systems of this standard. Audiophiles are synonymous with diminishing returns, but I wonder if that is even more acute with age of the listener. Super cool nonetheless.

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

An excellent question.

Hearing obviously (almost always) worsens with age, but it's not a linear degradation across the entire range of hearing, like adding random static noise to an entire television image. You can often still hear many/most frequencies very well even when experiencing moderate hearing loss.

Moderate hearing loss is almost always more severe in the higher frequencies a.k.a. treble. For example I'm in my 40s, and my hearing's starting to become crap above 8khz.

Meanwhile, the fundamental frequency of most musical content is quite a bit lower in the frequency range. The highest fundamental frequency of a standard piano with standard tuning is around 4khz, and most notes are an octave or five below that; "middle C" is usually defined as 262hz.

So, still plenty to enjoy even if one's hearing is no longer pristine.

    typical rate of hearing degradation due to age graphed
    against typical income growth with age

This correlation is not lost on speaker manufacturers. A lot of pricey speakers add (at least) a few extra dB of treble.

None of the manufacturers will admit it, of course, but you can't convince me otherwise: I've always been certain this is an attempt to appeal to the degraded hearing capabilities of their aging+affluent customers.

jacquesm3• 5 years ago

That's precisely right, I figure the crossover would be somewhere between 30 and 40. Babies (and dogs) would be quite happy though.

Animats2• 5 years ago

Is he an Instagrammer?

The ultimate system was probably the one in the screening room at Dolby Labs on Potero in San Francisco. The entire room was supported on anti-vibration mounts, isolated from the rest of the structure by an air gap. Outside that was a foot of acoustic insulation. The speakers are built into big chambers in the walls hidden by grille cloth screens. There's a control and projection room at the back. You didn't even see the system. Which is the point. The equipment should not distract from the show.

The room also had good enough acoustics that a speaker didn't need amplification to address 90 people.

I was there once for a demo of spatial audio for video games. We could hear the enemies sneaking up behind us. They had full hemisphere speaker coverage.

The room wasn't particularly luxurious. It was a working facility for the industry.

Dolby has since moved to a larger facility and built a new, larger screening room. I haven't seen that one.

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

I'd pay some decent money for time in that room! Maybe not a lot of money. But some.

    The entire room is supported on anti-vibration 
    mounts, isolated from the rest of the structure 
    by an air gap. Outside that is a foot of acoustic
    insulation.

Tangentially: the noise floor in a "normal" residential room is one reason why technically inferior formats such as vinyl records continue to be enjoyed by many. By the numbers, vinyl is objectively inferior to many digital formats. However, the average residential room has a noise floor of something like 30-40dB anyway. So, under normal listening conditions, vinyl tends to sound quite good compared to modern technology.

(edit) This could have been phrased better. What I meant was: when you look at "the specs", vinyl is vastly inferior to CD-quality digital audio. However, real world listening conditions render many of these advantages moot. For example, vinyl has a higher noise floor than CD audio - but this and other "flaws" of vinyl are essentially rendered moot thanks to real world listening/playback conditions that mask them.

gautamcgoel• 5 years ago

I don't understand, how does vinyl improve the noise floor issue?

jonahbenton2• 5 years ago

Say more? It would sound worse in a more acoustically refined setting because the noise in a vinyl playback would be more evident?

dehrmann• 5 years ago

All the room effort is a good point. This guy's listening room appears to be an acoustically odd shape with a lot of hard, echoy surfaces. The room acoustics likely dominate any benefits he hears after the first $5,000.

That said, I suspect he has more fun building the room than anything.

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

The guy's room seems pretty good acoustically.

The main thing is avoiding resonances / room modes. These will cause peaks and nulls in the frequency response that cannot be fixed with EQ. The primary way to do this is to avoid right angles; it looks like he has largely done this. In a more typical room where right angles are a fact of life, furnishings and bass traps can help with this.

The (lack of) sound absorption is kind of a tricky issue to discuss in a brief manner.

On an objective level w.r.t to room interactions, this guy's seating area is closer to the speakers than the side walls. That makes this a nearfield arrangement, meaning that the direct sound from the speakers will be greater in magnitude than reflected sound from the walls. This alone will minimize the effect of reflections.

On a subjective level w.r.t. room interactions, somewhat counterintuitively the goal for enjoyable listening is not to create a purely anechoic room totally free from room effects: this sounds unnatural and essentially just recreates a headphones listening experience. One can save a lot of money by strapping on a pair of headphones if that's what's desired. The human brain is, frankly, rather amazing at doing its own "room correction" and hearing through room issues anyway, as long as they're not massive peaks and nulls.

jacquesm3• 5 years ago

That's a nice room too for work with lasers to make holograms, the long exposure means vibration will kill the image.

stronglikedan• 5 years ago

We could hear the enemies sneaking up behind us.

Consumer audio is getting really good at spatial audio. Like, surprisingly good. I just got a sub-$500 television, and haven't hooked a soundbar up yet (just using TV audio). I was watching a movie with a scene in a cabin in the woods (not that one), and I was sitting by my window with my back to it. I started hearing birds chirping and wind blowing outside behind me, but when I looked out the window all was still. I realized it was the "outside the cabin" audio in that scene. My mind was absolutely blown.

jacquesm3• 5 years ago

There is an absolute fortune worth of clocks in that room.

defterGoose• 5 years ago

...and mostly in the DACs I'd wager.

pg_bot• 5 years ago

This guy needs to write a book about audio engineering.

m0zg• 5 years ago

He probably doesn't know much about it. Otherwise he'd buy a much simpler system akin to the ones studios use to record and mix the records. Given that he doesn't need the mixing console (which can be quite expensive), he could get a SOTA set up for well under $100K, and it'd likely sound much better. That includes acoustic treatments, but not "silver speaker wire". Copper works just fine.

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

If you want to read "the" book on sound reproduction, this is rather indisputably it:

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-Reproduction-Psychoacoustics-Lo...

The book is backed by quite a few decades of research and controlled listening experiments with trained and untrained listeners. It really is authoritative.

Dr. Toole is also very generous with his time on various audio forums and YouTube channels. So by all indications, you are also supporting a pretty decent human being.

buescher2• 5 years ago

It's a truly great book. Also a great sales pitch for Harman products.

systemvoltage• 5 years ago

Move 2 feet on either side and there goes the entire premise of all these high fidelity amplifiers and drivers. I see absolutely zero sound proofing. At this point this guy should be building an anachoic chamber, I only kid slighly.

The more I learn about hi-fi, the more bullshit I hear. There is no nice way to put this.

JohnBooty16• 5 years ago

Stories like this aren't representative of reality.

Obviously, when you coverage such as this, it tends to focus on outlandish examples such as this guy who has poured an absolute fortune into his stereo system.

It's the same way with any hobby. If somebody has two cats, it's not news. If they have fifty cats, it's news. Those kinds of cat owners obviously exist but they are on the fringe. Replace "cats" with "cars" or "guitars" or any other thing you like.

There is a growing trend of objectivism in the audio hobby. Performance can be measured in objective ways and it turns out that generally speaking, it's all just signal reproduction and the more accurately you do this, the better it sounds. An objectively well-performing system can be put together for just a few hundred USD at retail prices.

Applejinx3• 5 years ago

Also, the top-end of live performance has moved up. Whether it's the amazing line array designs for huge gigs, or Funktion One intensely loud horn-loaded designs, we get very impressive results these days.

This is one reason audio quality is experiencing a renaissance. If you have a club system that will CLEANLY hit 120 dB on transient peaks and you've got it cranked up and there's space in the mix, it's easy to hear where 16 bit audio leaves off (and mp3 is completely not to be thought of, a real bozo move).

Mind you, you've got to mix and master stuff correctly to use that to full effect, but some do :)

js24• 5 years ago

If you don't have an hour to watch, here's a summary:

https://www.wtvr.com/i-have-a-story/worlds-greatest-stereo-s...

vinkelhake• 5 years ago

Off topic, but man the out of focus shots bugged me. I don't know what they were shooting with, but obviously some care went into it. The shots of him sitting in the chair were framed alright, lighting was good, low aperture for a nice depth of field and... focus was on the chair in the center of the frame, making his face a blurry mess :(

bittercynic2• 5 years ago

This guy's system and the room are true works of art. Part of me wants to criticize the extravagance of it, but he's clearly having a good time, and it really looks like fun!

zw123456• 5 years ago

Well, one man's snake oil is another man's hobby, or whatever. I am not there with him, but I kind of understand a little. I inherited a collection of rare jazz and classical 78's from my favorite uncle when I was 15 (1973), he was a DJ at a radio station at a liberal arts college. He was my favorite uncle because when everyone else at a family reunion was arguing about fords vs. chevy or whatever, he and I would be off talking about Jazz, Blues, Rock, and all kinds of things. I have treasured them, he also willed me his vintage Victrola. I have not played most of them to preserve them. I have been experimenting and working on how to record them without harming them for years and I think I am almost there. Optics is no good, I have tried that, but this is real vinyl and there is a reactivity and response of the material that optics does not capture. I have developed what I call a software defined turntable that uses an FPGA to dynamically select equalization and control the speed, which varies during recordings.

Sorry, I am rambling. My point is, some of us are kooks, I guess. But, here is the thing, music can do that to a person. And other emotions. Never judge someone why they are obsessed, just enjoy the wonder of it.

I love that guy, good for him, enjoy my fellow traveler, enjoy.

fileoffset• 5 years ago

Hmm, I thought 78s were made from pretty strong stuff, and that the needle was the wearing part when playing those old discs? Why would you worry about harming them when playing?

Modern vinyl, I understand is softer and will wear with repeated plays but the old 78s should hold up much much better?

jarnold• 5 years ago

This isn’t a documentary about hi-if equipment. It’s a story about this man’s obsession. The sacrifices and guilt now realized. Nearing the end of his life with a terminal illness — it’s the reflection at the end that causes pause. How are your obsessions impacting you? Are they tearing you away from your family or friends? Are you happy with those choices made?

dukeofdoom• 5 years ago

Funeral home vibes in this man's house. But nice system.

World's Second Best Speakers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEh01PX-q9I

DIY option.

svilen_dobrev• 5 years ago

when the house is the loud?speaker:

http://www.scrounge.org/speak/burwen/index.html

Building a high quality audio system [video]

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