Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

https://www.luxeat.com/blog/confessions-of-a-michelin-inspector/

by teruakohatu • 5 years ago

216 302 5 years ago

luxeat.com

ChrisMarshallNY• 5 years ago

Very cool (Michelin Guide is a very opaque company), but there is one thing that caught my attention:

Hailing from Scotland where, as a child, he was regaled with some of the world’s best meats and produce

Maybe they meant somewhere other than Scotland?

Like, anywhere?

My mother was British, and she was an excellent cook.

Of non-British dishes...

tomcam15• 5 years ago

That's pretty funny, but my guess was that it was all locally produced. Fresh grass-fed beef is hard to beat.

cameronh902• 5 years ago

Scotland does have excellent meat and produce - the Aberdeen Angus and Scottish Salmon for example.

The standard of food in the lowlands is generally poor - especially outside of Edinburgh. But there is a lot of absolutely cracking Scottish/British food in the Highlands.

Of course, it's not as good for a foodie as somewhere like London, NYC or Tokyo. But it's a lot better than the kebabs, pizza crunches and munchie boxes that people associate with Scotland.

thaumasiotes8• 5 years ago

But it's a lot better than the kebabs, pizza crunches and munchie boxes that people associate with Scotland.

If it's any consolation, the only food I associate with Scotland is haggis, and I don't expect that people there are actually eating it. I have no opinion whatever on what people in Scotland eat. (Except, of course, that it probably isn't haggis.)

Bayart• 5 years ago

Scotland has some of the best beef in Europe.

gadders• 5 years ago

The pizza was an artisanal one with sour-dough base and freshly made before it was deep fried. Also he had the good Irn Bru with the sugar still in it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep-fried_pizza

More seriously, though, in terms of produce - sea food, beef etc, I would think Scotland is world class.

tomcam15• 5 years ago

Went to Paris and dined at a number of Michelin-starred places, including Le Cinq. The food was fine, but... I didn't get it! I think there is a culinary language that I understand as little as a typical Michelin-starred chef would be able to evaluate a tightly-written C program. On the other hand I was lucky enough to dine at Poppy Seattle every year of its existence and felt their completely original approach to thalis would have absolutely merited three stars. Poppy was well known to be one of the best restaurants in town, but I still wonder how I would have reacted if I understand the language better.

To calibrate, on a scale of 1-10 I would rate Cheesecake Factory and Starbucks food at a 3, Tim Horton and McDonald's at 4, and Olive Garden at 6. I'd put LeCinq at 8 and Poppy at 10.

My wife has more sophisticated taste. She though 3 stars for LeCinq made sense. I have double-blind tested her a number of times and her taste is unerring, including one trial where she correctly guessed Osetra, Beluga, and Sevruga caviar back when they were all legal, and 4 different kinds of Wagyu beef at a steakhouse.

wolverine8763• 5 years ago

In every domain - food, vpns, literature, etc. - I have more or less sophisticated taste (as does everyone). When I was young, I was skeptical of and even sometimes mocked the 'so-called experts' - possibly because (naturally, due to time) I'd developed sophistication in so little. I was very wise.

But over time I found that when I develop sophistication in things, the 'so-called experts' suddenly become very smart and were invaluable (at least many of them). Now when I don't understand the expert, I see it as a signal: here is an opportunity to learn a lot, to make a big leap. (Of course, I'll never have time to become sophisticated in everything.)

tomcam15• 5 years ago

Agreed. And I can say confidently that French cuisine is every bit as good as they say, and that American cuisine is generally infinitely far behind.

captain_price7• 5 years ago

If a movie has won an oscar, I used to count that as negative. Generally avoided nobel winners' books. Interesting how things have changed in just 7-8 years (I'm 25).

praptak2• 5 years ago

Paul Graham has an essay on taste[0]. It is about art but I think it translates well to taste in general.

[0] http://www.paulgraham.com/goodart.html

4ad• 5 years ago

You are of course right but... vpns?? How does "taste" in vpns work?

lostmsu• 5 years ago

Looks like it is very personal. I'd swap your Cheesecake factory and Olive Garden ratings.

PopePompus• 5 years ago

And I'd change the sign on the McDonald's rating.

tomcam15• 5 years ago

Which is exactly why I gave you the calibration! I absolutely do not regard myself as someone with unimpeachable taste.

My family agrees with me, but I think your taste is much more in line with most people.

nyfresh• 5 years ago

I think your rating system is too focused on food. The service, environment and food sourcing also play a large part in the rating. I bet you would see a difference if you try sparking a conversation with the staff from LeCinq.

OJFord6• 5 years ago

I don't know, McDonalds over Starbucks on food? (Or any metric!) At least the latter has sandwiches. But I don't think I really understand any scale that has either of them as well as actual restaurants?

tomcam15• 5 years ago

We talked with them at length. I always do no matter what the establishment. But that has nothing to do with my reaction to the food, which to me is the reason to go. Good point though.

werdnapk• 5 years ago

Yeah, ambience and service are a huge part of top end restaurants. You're not gonna get your linen napkin folded for you each time you come back from the washroom at olive garden.

therealdrag02• 5 years ago

Any alternatives to Poppy you’d recommend in Seattle?

tomcam15• 5 years ago

Lionhead, a particularly authentic Sichuan Chinese restaurant surprisingly founded by the same gentleman (Asian family; this is one thing I know well). Or Pomegranate in Redmond. They are both top-notch but I have eaten at hundreds of restaurants and nothing has been remotely as original yet tasty as Poppy. You have any faves there?

fasdghvhjf• 5 years ago

Spinasse in Capitol Hill is incredible. We took everyone who visited us there and it was always a hit. Get the tajarin and cipollini onions with sausage.

zeusk• 5 years ago

If you fancy italian (vegetarian), I've found due cucina and g.h. pasta to be the best so far.

kragen17• 5 years ago

I think there's a significant question about the linearity of the scale. Is this quadratic, linear, logarithmic, exponential?

If quadratic, then the Cheesecake Factory experience gives you 9 "utils" and Poppy gives you 100 utils. You'd rather eat at Poppy once a month than Cheesecake Factory 11 times a month, but you'd rather eat at Cheesecake factory 12 times a month than either. (If 12 times a month is too much, swap these for per-year numbers.)

If linear, then Cheesecake Factory gives you 3 utils and Poppy gives you 10. You'd rather eat at Poppy once a month than Cheesecake Factory 3 times a month, but you'd rather eat at Cheesecake Factory 4 times a month than either.

If logarithmic, it doesn't really matter what the base of the logarithm is. Suppose it's 10. Then Cheesecake Factory gives you 0.477 utils and Poppy gives you 1 util. You'd rather eat at Poppy once a month than Cheesecake Factory twice a month, but you'd rather eat at Cheesecake Factory three times a month. I think this is roughly how my restaurant scale works.

If exponential, it does matter what the base of the exponential is. Suppose it's 10. Then Cheesecake Factory gives you 1000 utils and Poppy gives you 10 billion utils. You'd rather eat at Poppy once in your life than Cheesecake Factory an unlimited number of times (once a week for 200,000 years). But if the base of the exponential is 2, then we're talking about 8 Cheesecake Factory utils versus 1024 Poppy utils. In that case you'd rather eat at Poppy once every 4 years than at Cheesecake Factory once a week, but you'd rather eat at Cheesecake Factory (or an equivalently good restaurant) once a week than at Poppy every 5 years.

So, how does that 1-10 scale map to your preferences?

tomcam15• 5 years ago

I love your clarification. Quadratic scale FTW.

blunte3• 5 years ago

Wow. I'd just rather never eat at Cheesecake Factory. Please let me take you to some good restaurants :).

ska3• 5 years ago

So, how does that 1-10 scale map to your preferences?

Why does your analysis assume fixed utility for sites? I expect it is strongly conditioned on recent days, at minimum?

wodenokoto• 5 years ago

I think because cheesecake factory is lowly rated, you'd rather eat there once a month, than twice ...

phreeza• 5 years ago

Important factor is novelty, going to a new restaurant once is likely to give you more than 0.5x the utilons as going to the same place twice in most cases, though maybe that curve inverts eventually as you become a "regular".

Ansil8495• 5 years ago

The food was fine, but... I didn't get it! I think there is a culinary language that I understand as little as a typical Michelin-starred chef would be able to evaluate a tightly-written C program.

Correct. I don't know why this is a revelation that seems especially hard for HN audiences to grasp, or why it's a revelation at all.

Every single domain has its own expertise. It is absurdly arrogant and deeply condescending to think that only computer science or engineering or related fields have specialty expertise.

tomcam15• 5 years ago

That’s right of course. But what bothers me is it I greatly enjoy eating out, I’ve done it a whole lot, and I’m still surprisingly bad at it.

zelphirkalt• 5 years ago

I think with this one it is, because everyone has tasted before, but comparatively few have coded before. So everyone can say something about their subjective taste experiences, but not so many can about some code. The actual difference might be subjective or one of practiced ability to distinguish in detail.

There is also the aspect of science and engineering leading to objective an hopefully reproducible results. There is less subjective matter to it and there are objective criteria to measure quality. It is possible to leave personal taste out of the equation. Imagine a michelin star tester eating and having to throw up, because of taste, even though the kitchen is clean and all ingredients were of superb quality and the cook is really good. Would they still approve objectively?

1123581321• 5 years ago

No one thinks that. It's just market confusion regarding what type of critic is Michelin. There are good critics that don't rate restaurants by their appeal to food nerds/wonks.

tracerbulletx2• 5 years ago

Jeez Cheesecake Factory must have really wronged you or something.

tomcam15• 5 years ago

Yeah I totally get that I’m in the minority. But with the exception of one or two dishes I don’t feel they’re particularly good, and I always hate the cheesecake. I can make much better cheesecake with just a few ingredients at home.

cameronh902• 5 years ago

As a non-American, I found The Cheesecake Factory baffling. Far more baffling than any other restaurant I've been to in the USA.

The restaurants appear to be trying to look fancy, with their extravagant yet tastelessly cheesy interior design. I wasn't sure if it was some kind of ironic inside joke that everyone from the USA is in on?

Despite the OTT design, the food was unremarkable. Not too surprising given that the menu has so many items, and it comes in such giant portions - but hard to reconcile with the decor and reputation.

And indeed, despite the name, the cheesecakes were easily the worst part of the meal.

miles2• 5 years ago

I think there is a culinary language that I understand as little as a typical Michelin-starred chef would be able to evaluate a tightly-written C program.

That got me wondering:

Third Michelin Star for Blockchain Chef https://medium.com/@aaron.lipeles/third-michelin-star-for-bl...

"For Soltys, a third star is the ultimate accolade in an accidental profession. Trained as a computer scientist, he originally became interested in cooking as a way to recycle the heat produced by his compute servers’ CPUs."

nyanpasu64• 5 years ago

BTW it's an April Fools article.

phonypc6• 5 years ago

FWIW...

I like to think I'm someone who "gets" the "culinary language" (insofar as that is meaningful; food/cooking/taste being so subjective I'm not sure how useful the comparison to a "tightly-written C program" can be). Have cooked since I was 12, payed way too much for a fancy french culinary school, worked in various styles of restaurant.

I think Michelin-star-type restaurants are repulsive, masturbatory, hubris infested dumps. Le Cinq's 140 EUR "Spaghetti Gratin" is only marginally less absurd than a "contemporary artist" selling a plain white canvas for 7+ figures. Give me a big plate of grandma's spag bol over that any day.

zoltar• 5 years ago

I'm not much of a foodie, but I do like eating stuff.

I've found that most starred restaurants I've been to are more like participating in some performance art rather than an effort just to not be hungry. Three stars is a blockbuster movie. One star is a good short story or a clever photograph.

It's like sitting down and asking Thomas Keller or April Bloomfield to tell you what's up using just their vision and talent and the contents of their pantry.

I also really appreciate nerds. People who just go all out on something and dive deep or wide or both. Out of curiosity or passion or just good old plain obsession.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s2YQZg-pmI

While there are whole genres of art I don't get, I find food is a pretty approachable for me.

As an aside, your comment reminded me of a scene from Star Trek. First minute or so of this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Zekgzwsxg

pottertheotter• 5 years ago

I consider myself quite the foodie and have eaten at numerous Michelin star restaurants, but I don't really care for them much anymore.

However, I'll point out one exception. I ate at CORE by Clare Smyth* in London a couple years ago and it is my favorite meal I've ever had. It was too new to be in the Michelin Guide, but now has 3 stars. What made this experience different was that the food was accessible. It was impeccable, the service was amazing, but I think that anyone can go there and appreciate how good the food is.

First, the marginal returns are diminishing once you get past a certain point. I lived in SF for several years and the enjoyment I had at $50 plate restaurants was pretty equivalent to $150 places.

Second, the "top" restaurants are incredibly inaccessible. Sometimes it comes down to the ingredients being very hard to work with, and they have the talent and the time to wrangle them. If you don't know that, it's underwhelming. If you do know that and you're honest with yourself, it's still often underwhelming.

* Clare Smyth was the head chef at Restaurant Gordon Ramsay, a 3 Michelin star restaurant, from 2012-2016. Among other awards, she was Good Food Guide's 2013 National Chef of the Year, World's Best Female Chef 2018 by the World's 50 Best Restaurants, and in 2018 CORE was named Best Restaurant at the GQ Food and Drink Awards.

jrumbut• 5 years ago

It's important to distinguish restaurants that are good because they provide novelty and those that are good because they make the best darn chicken parm you've ever had.

I find a lot of reviews don't do a good job making this distinction, especially for less familiar cuisines.

So I'm happy to hear your review of Core, if I am ever in the area I'll have to check it out.

davidw• 5 years ago

McDonald's at 4, and Olive Garden at 6

Having lived in Italy and experienced real Italian food, I'd move the Olive Garden lower than McDonalds. McDonalds is not trying to pretend it's something else. It is what it is, and everyone knows what it is.

jiggawatts4• 5 years ago

I've been to two Michelin-starred Sushi places in Japan. I thought they were both amazing, but I realised that my parents would not have thought so.

They grew up relatively poor, and still have the habit of eating at home from a rotating menu of relatively straightforward recipes. Stews, soups, that kind of thing. They've gone to restaurants maybe a few dozen times in their lives, if that.

I've been to so many Sushi restaurants in so many cities that I have a nice smooth gradient of ratings along which I can place them. I can recognise and appreciate the small touches like real wasabi or expensive sake. The fancy places in Japan extended that experience just past the upper end of what I've experienced before. I could place them in context.

My parents tried a Sushi train... once. A $300 sushi set would be wasted on them, because they would be just as happy with a $50 sushi set. The difference would be completely lost on them.

fastball• 5 years ago

I found Michelin stars in Japan came with way less pretense (and by extension / in conjunction – way smaller price tag) than in Europe / US.

ackbar03• 5 years ago

Yes I do think upbringing does come into play, cause you subconsciously just don't care enough to distinguish the differences. Our family is decently well off but I was sort of raised like we were poor due to my parents upbringing. When I eat out I'm happier eating in hole-in-the-wall places cause I just feel better not "wasting" money on something more expensive. Sometimes I actually feel cheaper stuff really does taste better though since environment and marketing also does factor into the price tag, and cheaper places focus more on just making the damn stuff. Doesn't really help me much when I try to go on dates though Lol.

praptak2• 5 years ago

It always makes me question whether it is good to have a well developed taste.

Having taste makes you require more dollars to get the same level of satisfaction from a meal or a drink.

pjc502• 5 years ago

The difference would be completely lost on them.

I've definitely heard the life advice to avoid trying this kind of thing in case you do like it, then everything less is permanently tainted with the knowledge that it's not as good.

However, western super-high-price dining tends to be one or both of "demoscene for food" or "NFTs for food"

- demoscene: a series of increasingly elaborate and labor-intensive techniques for showcasing skill in a constrained environment. The Heston Blumenthal/molecular gastronomy approach.

- NFTs: the process entirely about conspicuous consumption; the value of the food is determined by how many resources were expended in the process, not what it actually tastes like. Wines in particular have a value determined by rarity and the secondary market.

The best compromise is probably found around the "twice as much as a chain restaurant" price point; enough to find quality ingredients and staff who aren't too rushed off their feet, not enough that you start getting weird stunts.

(a fun read: Jay Rayner's negative review of the Polo Lounge https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/aug/15/the-polo-lounge... )

xiphias2• 5 years ago

For me the worst thing was when I invited my parents to more expensive restaurants (more the $50 category in a cheap country) that my father was complaining about how small and expensive is the food, and making jokes about it to the waiter. They got used to it after 10 times going to these places, but I still felt ashamed for some time.

mattbrewsbytes• 5 years ago

There was a documentary on netflix (someone dreams of sushi, Hiro?) that leads me to believe sushi is an art form using food.

If you don't appreciate the art form then it might not matter what dollar level or Michelin stars a place has.

I've never been to a Michelin star restaurant but do watch cooking shows where they make food like that and I don't know if I'd appreciate it.

nizmow• 5 years ago

What on earth do people do besides eating at home from a rotating set of straightforward recipes? Honestly curious. I’m the main cook in my home and we do eat out every other week, but who has time for that much experimentation?

j7ake2• 5 years ago

I wonder if there is an analogy here to classical music. Most lay people would probably not be able to appreciate the technique, difficult, and musicality of certain pieces, but trained ears would appreciate the fine details.

As a consequence, most people prefer “easily digestible” music such as pop music rather than highly refined classical music.

ed_balls• 5 years ago

I've been to a few michelin-starred shushi places in London and Europe. A regular shush place in Tokyo was much better. Even a cheap place with no waiters (conveyer belt). It was the greatest difference between food X and food X in the country of origin.

The biggest disappointment was the michelin-starred stall in Singapore. The food was just... bad.

petre• 5 years ago

The Japanese don't necessarily agree with the Michelin guide for rating their restaurants. Some claim that the inspectors didn't proprly understand Japanese food and culture.

https://trulyexperiences.com/blog/the-asian-apathy-to-the-mi...

vsef• 5 years ago

Well Le Cinq in particular had a scandalously bad (and very entertaining) review from a very well known restaurant critic questioning how the hell it had 3 stars: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl...

So maybe trust your gut more?

I've only ever eaten at one restaurant with one star (Hisop in Barcelona) and it was wonderful, but I don't think there's any reason to think the Michelin ratings are a perfect system.

lmm2• 5 years ago

Looks like your link was mangled into uselessness by Google?

Agingcoder• 5 years ago

Interesting. I see the 'I didn't get it' - the same kind of thing can happen with wine as well, but you start to differentiate / appreciate by eating/drinking it more often. You're essentially training your palate, if you're interested in it obviously .

I give McDonald's and Starbucks a 1 - it doesn't qualify as a meal with any sense of taste whatsoever in my book (I assume restaurant food is edible,and doesn't taste bad, so 1 means 'very bland and uninteresting' ).

ninkendo• 5 years ago

Wow, lots of people are absolutely shitting on McDonald’s in this thread so let me just say I rank McDonald’s a 10 and every one of these overpriced michelin star places a 1.

There, that balances things out a bit.

(I’m only mildly joking… I absolutely love McDonald’s, I can — and have — eaten there every day for months. But I rank convenience, speediness, and a hassle-free experience above almost anything else at a restaurant, including food quality.)

KronisLV2• 5 years ago

You know, it's reassuring to hear that others' palates aren't a visage of sophistication, as opposed to just pretending to understand all of the nuance in every dish. The alternative feels disingenuous, much like certain bits of the wine culture.

It's amazing that some people do and many of the better chefs out there probably are among these people, but it's also perfectly fine not to be that way. Some people (myself included) are just satisfied by simpler food!

I guess your analogy of well written C code is also very apt, since some people would optimize their programs for every bit of performance and efficient memory utilization that they can, but other times people just want something good enough and thus would use Java/.NET to get 80% of the way there.

glenngillen• 5 years ago

You’re not alone. Dining out at fancy restaurants is one of my few indulgences. I’ve been really fortunate to eat quite a few of the highest rated ones and I’ve come the the conclusion there’s a few different categories:

- inventiveness & craft: these are chefs that are pushing the boundaries in terms of techniques, finding new ingredients, or trying to find new ways to turn a dish into essentially an art form. Noma, El Bulli, etc. would belong here. There’s every chance you will actually get a dish or two here that you don’t like. But that’s kinda ok, it’s about pushing boundaries and perspectives. Often the kind of places you’d be happy to only go to once.

- all about the flavour & execution: the kind of restaurant where everything is perfect and everything is delicious. Where you finish your meal, are stuffed, but would come back and order the exact same things again tomorrow if you had the chance because it was that good. Petrus in London was one of my all time faves in this category.

- about the experience: it’s not all about the food, this is more like a form of entertainment. You’ll also need to embrace one of the previous two categories to be successful though. The Fat Duck in the UK and Lazy Bear in SF fit this for me. Entertaining enough to do more than once, unlikely to ever become a regular haunt though.

- the rest: I’ve never understood. Expensive for the sake of being expensive. Popular because they’re popular. Probably latching on to some current food trend. The food is always quite good at these places. It’s just never obvious why it’s the best.

Spend enough time in any city and you can usually find amazing restaurants in each of these categories that aren’t anywhere near popular enough to make a Michelin list. I’ve also found if I’m asking a local for a recommendation that framing the question into one of the first 3 categories helps, e.g., “if you had to eat at only 1 restaurant in this city every week for the rest of the year, which restaurant would you want it to be?”

hef19898• 5 years ago

I once had a multi-course lunch at a two-star restaurant in Munich (lucky me, I didn't have to pay). Food was good, for sure, that being said if you know where to eat in countries like Italy and France food is getting close, if not on par, in terms of taste and quality for a fraction of the price. Presentation so is different, I personally considered the two-star one over the top so.

brianwawok• 5 years ago

Man, the hate at cheesecake factory is surprising. I would put it 1 notch above olive garden for sure.

dfxm12• 5 years ago

It's certainly subjective and there's not really a published criteria. To a civilian, it's kinda like a dog show. To you or me, all the dogs look like perfect dogs, but a judge looks for specific things, things most people wouldn't care about (or even consider "good"). There's room for some subjectivity there, but the difference is, the judging criteria for dogs is public.

What does a Michelin star really mean? Is there a secret criteria (beyond "use local ingredients")? The guy in the article contradicts himself!

For one star, definitely should use local products, care, good depth of flavour in the sauces, careful presentation and service that matches.

Of course, over the years Michelin has spoken more and more about the fact that the stars are a reflection of the cuisine, not the service, it’s all about what is on the plate.

Does service matter or not?

phonypc6• 5 years ago

Even "use local ingredients" doesn't really fit. Some places have that as a focus, sure, but others will fly in specialty seafood from the other side of the globe.

jjkaczor• 5 years ago

You obviously haven't eaten at a Tim Hortons (in Canada at least) in a few years, their food is atrocious. And it keeps getting worse as they flail about trying to catch market-share.

gremloni• 5 years ago

Haute western food is all about gimmicky ingredients, presentation and “letting the food speak for itself”. I think this is nonsensical considering the tremendous range of flavor and delicious cuisine that Asia and the Mediterranean regions offer with the correct application of spices and flavor compliments. Food really is all about taste.

wolverine8763• 5 years ago

When I last used the Michelin guide, about ten years ago, it was a little bizarre: IIRC descriptions would give 2-3 sentences about the decor or service, a short phrase about the food, the rating, and that was it. My choice was to blindly trust the rating or to look elsewhere. I took the rating into account, but I need much more information. Is it still that way? Did I misunderstand something?

mikepurvis• 5 years ago

This is me with movies and video games too. Like, sure the Metacritic ratings count for something, but ultimately it's far more significant to me to find a handful of reviewers whose taste I trust who can describe in longer form what it was that worked for them and didn't, and in particular when there are one or more X-factors that make something significantly more than the sum of its parts.

satellite22• 5 years ago

Contrary to what the article suggests, the star system is not really a rating but more of an award. For most people a one star should already the most fantastic restaurant they've had.

Even the restaurant that don't receive a star and figure in the guide should be amongst the best in a region.

So simply figuring in the guide should already be a strong signal that you will get a minimum quality meal.

FDSGSG6• 5 years ago

There usually aren't too many to choose from. Select the cuisine you want and read up on the individual restaurants elsewhere.

Shadonototra• 5 years ago

Title: Confessions of a Michelin Inspector

1st paragraph: We had the great pleasure to speak to Chris Watson, ex-Michelin Guide inspector

Is he a Michelin Star Inspector or an ex-Michelin Guide inspector?

Who to trust? title or paragraph?

bserge4• 5 years ago

Once a Michelin Inspector, always a Michelin Inspector, I guess

hardwaregeek• 5 years ago

I've been to multiple Michelin Star restaurants and a few other at that caliber. Perhaps it's me, but I didn't find most of them stunning. The one place that did live up to my expectations was L'Astrance in Paris. Beautiful dishes that had such elegant but strong flavors. The wine pairings were also inspired.

I'd love to go to a Michelin level Chinese restaurant. I love Chinese food and would love to see a restaurant pair it with seasonality and quality sourcing

nicolas_t6• 5 years ago

If you ever come to Hong Kong, I'd recommend Forum or Ying Jee Club, both are highly rated in the Michelin guide and deserve it. If you don't care for Dim Sum but want great cantonese dishes then Tang Court is another option (their tasting menu is exceptional but their dim sum are a bit overly seasoned and not great).

blunte3• 5 years ago

Michelin Star restaurants, in my 6 or 7 different experiences, are as much about the title as the food. Indeed the service is more formal, to the point of being a bit ridiculous in some cases. But the food itself was not so much more special than a really good unknown restaurant.

It's really a bit silly, a status symbol that allows pomp and circumstance to satisfy people who need something "special" to talk about.

I have had food from street vendors and family restaurants that blew my mind - unique flavors and textures that I had never experienced before, and which were so magnificently balanced that they surpassed any expensive meal I ever had. And I've had expensive meals which were truly excellent. But my few MS experiences were not markedly better than my best other experiences.

It reminds me of the studies of wines and wine tasting. People just like to believe they're getting something special. And if you give it a special award, charge more, and have 4 servers per table, the guests love it.

ska3• 5 years ago

But my few MS experiences were not markedly better than my best other experiences.

This is just as you would expect, given sufficient samples, from any classification process that really doesn't want false positives but isn't too concerned about false negatives.

satellite22• 5 years ago

Perfectly on point.

I feel the question that might have missed in this interview is what kind of coverage do they manage yearly. And by region. I expect France should comme much closer to 100% than say, any south Asian country.

tayo423• 5 years ago

have had food from street vendors and family restaurants that blew my mind

Do you have some examples to share?

blunte3• 5 years ago

I'm trying desperately to remember specifics. I love to travel, and food is my #1 or #2 focus when I travel. So I try a lot :).

Places and be hit or miss, or at least vary in experience over time or depending upon various factors. But here are some of the ones I can think of, in no particular order.

desmaakvanafrika.nl in Rotterdam, NL

kuarestaurant.nl in The Hague, NL

www.die-kueche-bamberg.de in Bamberg, DE

Aum Vegitarian in Chiang Mai, Thailand - https://g.page/AumVegetarianRestaurant?share

Lots of street vendors in Chiang Mai. Try a bit of everything, as it's very cheap and often very nice.

Elevation Pizza in Fraser, CO, US - www.elevationpizzaco.com

It doesn't matter that I list places though. If you read reviews or talk to locals, and you try a lot of places, you will find so many good restaurants... usually... unless you're in Netherlands where most people don't care about food, in which case you have to work harder to find the good ones ;)

arp242• 5 years ago

Not the previous poster, but probably the best meal I ever had was in Ísafjörður, a small fishing village in the north of Iceland. A wife-and-husband team does the cooking, their son is the server. It serves traditional Icelandic fish dishes in an unassuming old wooden hut (previously used to store manure, or so they told me) on long tables/benches. Everything about it looks about as unpretentious and plain as you can imagine, but it's amazing if you enjoy fish.

lmm2• 5 years ago

I've had great meals at places that weren't in the Guide. But I've never had a bad meal at a restaurant that was in the Guide. Given that there are far more restaurants in the world than one person could visit in a lifetime, that makes the Guide pretty useful.

ValentineC• 5 years ago

Singaporean here. I don't know how Michelin shortlisted the eateries here when the guide first launched here in Singapore, but the selection was oddly similar to TripAdvisor's top food places — and missed out quite a few gems.

Not that I blame them — I wouldn't want some of my favourite street food haunts to be overwhelmed by long tourist queues.

refurb3• 5 years ago

This just seems like someone sharing their own subjective take on food?

I mean there is no right answer, it’s personal preference?

It reminds me of audiophiles who can hear the difference in oxygen free speaker cables or prefer the “warmth” of vinyl.

I’m like “ok? seems like that works for you so keep doing it?”

ohashi• 5 years ago

I mean there are some less subjective parts like service and cooking properly. Going to random places and getting food poisoning, or finding plastic from the wrapper in your food I expect would never happen at a michelin star restaurant. Whereas, random hole in the wall places I've eaten at have multiple times given me these experiences. Undercooked meat is a simple one too. A lot of higher rated/fancier places I've found consistently deliver better food. That's not personal preference, it's absence of basic cooking mistakes.

moehm7• 5 years ago

There is a huge misconception that professional tasters are rating by their personal preferences. I can't really talk about restaurants, but about wine and spirits.

As a taster, you don't look for things you personally enjoy. You look for "quality". That is, balance, complexity, off-flavors, typicity etc. Just because I like my wine oxidized and my meat burned, I can't say the meal was terrible. (But maybe the service, if you have asked for your steak burned, but got it medium rare.)

refurb3• 5 years ago

But quality is still a subjective measure to a large extent.

Sure, if something is so salty it's not palatable or your cheesecake is lumpy, one can have a more objective assessment.

But even if "professional tasters" agree on what balance means, that's still a subjective measure agreed upon by a select group.

As someone who has eaten at Michelin star restaurant and had a mediocre experience, I'm of the mind if I like it then it's an enjoyable experience. It's pretty irrelevant what professional tasters think.

olivierduval3• 5 years ago

Actually, it's really not that much... Think about this: you can surely taste the difference between a MacDo burger and a homemade burger, can't you? For the second, you will use some proper meat, cooked properly, maybe with a custom sauce. And it will be objectively "better"... even if you like the taste less

mejutoco• 5 years ago

You are spot on. It is not a bad thing, I believe.

It is a brand (Michelin) with their taste. If you agree with their taste it can open similar recommendations. Like music recommendations from Pitchfork or NME. It can also work as a reverse-recommendation: avoiding movies that won an Oscar, or from a certain Director, or that your cousin loves ;).

If somebody likes the imperfections of vinyl, or of traditional firm photography, good for them. It does not need to be a hipster thing.

11thEarlOfMar• 5 years ago

First, you really need to enjoy that type of experience.

A 3-star restaurant is going to have attentive, almost (but not quite) intrusive service. The servers come across more as dining consultants or even storytellers. One lunch at The French Laundry, our server spent quite a few minutes explaining the history of the butter served with the 'hot buttered rolls' course. The cow that provided the milk had been given to Thomas Keller as a gift, and now lived in upstate New York, eating plenty of clover (I don't recall the bovine's name). The butter was churned there, and then flown refrigerated to the restaurant in Yountville. Then, I commented about the case of aged whiskeys in the case behind our table, and in particular, a 1942 Scotch. A taste could be had for $1,200 per shot.

The courses are small servings, but seem to keep coming. There were almost as many dessert courses as main meal courses, and to be honest, when we were done, I was quite uncomfortable from the amount of food I ate.

The presentation is art, the flavors typically subtle and complex, and the quality of ingredients is clearly the best to be found. I ate dishes I'd never had before, not always sure what was in them, but could get the full back story by asking.

Lunch for four, $1,800, including wine.

Semaphor3• 5 years ago

A 3-star restaurant is going to have attentive, almost (but not quite) intrusive service. The servers come across more as dining consultants or even storytellers.

I had that experience in a 0-star chain steakhouse. It was the Football World Championship in Germany, and Germany was playing. I don’t care for that at all (nor did any of the people working that day), they were one of the few restaurants without a TV. I had to keep my eyes lowered as I was the only guest and whenever anyone had the impression there was a chance I was looking at them, someone would come over and ask if I needed anything ;)

rdeboo• 5 years ago

I've had this experience in Germany and it turned out that the waitress gets a cut of the turnover, at least for drinks. So they have an incentive to keep the glasses full. I'm not sure if this is common in Germany.

bb101• 5 years ago

The servers come across more as dining consultants or even storytellers.

I have a feeling this may be a feature of American fine dining. In Michelin-starred restaurants in the UK and France, I've found the service to be very discreet but immediately present when you need it. Certainly no introducing of names, or unrequested stories.

An amusing example was a lunch at Apicius in Paris, where we were offered an aperitif on the terrace. Having enjoyed our tipple, we then waited for someone to come and seat us. An hour later, a curious staff member stuck their head outside and asked whether we are ready to dine. I don't think it occurred to them to usher us around and we were free to time everything to our leisure. Moreover, on our next visit the same maitre d' remembered our preferred drinks and suggested talking to the chef to reconfigure the tasting menu with dishes we didn't have previously -- with two years between the visits.

ToJans2• 5 years ago

As a Belgian consultant I've spent a lot of time on business lunches and dinners, all over Europe.

Big orgs always invited me in Michelin star restaurants. Smaller orgs usually invited me to emerging restaurants or well known local places.

If you mostly care about discovering the second kind, I would strongly suggest you to ignore the stars and take a look at Michelin's "bib gourmand rating" [0]: these are restaurants where you don't have as much protocol, food is reasonably priced, and typically places I would go to when I could choose myself...

[0] https://guide.michelin.com/nl/nl/restaurants/bib-gourmand

ayngg• 5 years ago

I think the bib gourmand is the hidden star of the Michelin guide. It is just good food at a good price and it is much less known so you don't have to deal with the throngs that stars attract. It is more extensive too so there are always options.

omeze• 5 years ago

+1 to this, if youre visiting paris just follow bib gourmand places and avoid the reservation anxiety. I had the best duck udon Ive ever tasted at Kisin

locallost• 5 years ago

Thanks a lot! It's exactly what I'm always looking for.

ToJans2• 5 years ago

Welcome! Enjoy! I especially recommend asking for the signature local dishes in these kind of places; a lot of pleasant surprises!

jelliclesfarm3• 5 years ago

Having worked in Michelin starred restaurants, we almost always know when an alleged inspector is coming..(there is usually a chart with photos and nicknames in the locker room). the exhilaration and high after the results are out is real. Also..chefs talk. We know. But at that level, it doesn’t matter. Every plate that goes out has to be perfect..has to be impeccable.

nicolas_t6• 5 years ago

Sometimes I wonder if the Michelin inspector in two of the restaurants I know here who do not deserve a star were served other dishes. It's either that or the inspector rated the interior design and service.

jelliclesfarm3• 5 years ago

They visit multiple times. A sub par restaurant would never earn its stars. In Europe anyways. I don’t know about Americas or Asia and beyond.

yawaworht1978• 5 years ago

I think it often comes down to personal preference from a consumers view. The second best food experience i have had was a Hilton evening buffet, the best was a Marriot a la carte dinner, by far. The Michelin rated restaurants I felt don't come close. But I am not a big foodie or expert, but all i know a lot of this is pretentious marketing, who's is to guarantee that the meals will be the same when the inspectors are not there? And there are many food places who never "enroll" into such programs.

There was once a degustation event for wines where all the so-called experts went to try wines with closed eyes and they could tell apart the cheapest off the supermarket shelf bottles from the "best".

Eat what you like, not what someone else tells you is good.

nicolas_t6• 5 years ago

The wine degustation story got retold and retold to the point where it got mangled http://sciencesnopes.blogspot.com/2013/05/about-that-wine-ex...

sva_• 5 years ago

And there are many food places who never "enroll" into such programs.

I don't think Chefs actually enroll to get Michelin stars, or anything. They will be awarded, if the Chefs want them or not.

https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/michelin-guide-seoul-...

"Including my restaurant Eo in the corrupt book is a defamation against members of Eo and the fans. Like a ghost, they did not have a contact number and I was only able to get in touch through email. Although I clearly refused listing of my restaurant, they included it at their will this year as well."
"There are thousands of restaurants in Seoul that are on the same level or better and more honest than those listed on the Michelin guide. It is a sad joke that a mere 170 of them are representing Seoul."

There are some cases like this

greggman3• 5 years ago

I wanna say people just have different tastes. I think it was an episode of NOVA that pointed the range in tastebud density is 3x meaning people with the highest density of tastebuds have 3x those of people with the lowest density. I don't know if there is any research on this but a guess would be that people with high density tastebuds prefer subtler tastes and people with low density tastebuds prefer stronger tastes.

If true (or even if for other reasons), one person might find dish A to be exquisite while another finds it repulsive.

Add to that genetics like the fact that to 15% of the population brussel sprouts taste like dish soap. Similarly, cilantro. I'm fortunate I don't have those genes so I love both.

The point is you can get huge disagreements on what's "good", possibly because of these differences in perception on top of just personal preference. One person likes strong flavored ramen (pork bone for example) and another like subtle flavored ramen (soy sauce or salt based). Note that you can't make strong soy/salt based ramen or subtle pork bone ramen but in general it's common to assume the split.

Further, there's regional and family differences. If I grew up with a dish tasting one way then I'll probably feel if it's made differently it's not "authentic" even though I really have no proof that the way I tasted it first is "correct". Example: Not a fan of NYC pizza. A huge fan of well done neapolitan style (more than 80 certified neapolitan style pizza places in Tokyo, only 3 in NYC, and Japan won the pizza competition in Naples 5 times)

I enjoy a good meal and don't mind paying but I've had lots of disappointments. Narisawa, $450 a person in Tokyo, considered one of the top 50 restaurants in the world, was not bad but was no better than another place I went a month later for $70. Some $150 a person Yakiniku place in Tokyo was also a pretty big disappointment. There was one piece of meat that was amazing but the other 80% of the meal was subpar compared to the $30 a person chain Yakiniku place my friends and I would often go to. 3 molecular gastronomy restaurants I went to (2 in SF, one in NYC) were interesting but not actually tasty. I'd never go back to any of them. Also went to the highest rated restaurant in Bangkok and its tastes also seemed off. The experience of being a nice restaurant was ok but the food was too salty. All of us, not just me, were disappointed after the hype.

One place that stuck out as worth the price for the experience was Gastrologik in Stockholm. A 3hr 17 course meal.

nicolas_t6• 5 years ago

I was raised in a family that didn't really go to fancy restaurants, my father would scoff at waisting money on fancy meals when you could go to a cheaper restaurants multiple times for the cost of one meal at a fancy place.

Then, I grew up, eventually traveled around, tried a lot more restaurants and grew a passion for dining out. I can say that my taste changed, when I try things that I have nostalgia for but haven't eaten in years, I'm often disappointed. The tastes I liked from my childhood and early 20s are now things I often consider mediocre, too sweet, not enough complexity, boring.

I think a palate like anything is something that can be trained, so far I derive a lot of enjoyment from eating out so the trade off is worth it but there's a trade off for sure. If I suddenly no longer had the money to afford those restaurants, I'd have cravings for expensive food that I wouldn't otherwise have.

Side note, while Michelin Guide is a useful resource, I frequently disagree with them. I think they tend to place too much emphasis on service and atmosphere and give stars to restaurants that are all flash but no substance. I tend to prefer the Gault et Millau (at least in France), they have more focus on food and will give good ratings to restaurants with great food but bad service. As someone who goes to restaurants to enjoy the food, the freshness and quality of the ingredients and the cooking skills but who doesn't care about atmosphere at all this fits me better. You'd find small tiny mum and pop eateries in Gault et Millau but they wouldn't be in the Michelin Guide or if they are, they'd only get a bib gourmet.

bjarneh3• 5 years ago

The worst part about some of these 3 star restaurants, is that staff are often unpaid. It's basically what Americans call an internship, i.e. the only "salary" is that you can add working in a 3 star restaurant to your CV.

I once visited a 3 star restaurant in Spain (Arzak), where this was the case. If you look at the cost of eating there, and consider that most of the staff is unpaid, it really leaves a bad taste in your mouth. The business model is similar to cruise ships. You buy something very expensive produced by slave labor, that makes a few people obscenely rich, while all others suffer.

atlasunshrugged4• 5 years ago

Wait, why is this like cruise ships? I thought people on cruise ships were paid alright (considering also the tips they can make) compared to the alternatives they have at home (my understanding is that the vast majority of workers are non-American/W. EU)

bjarneh3• 5 years ago

Wait, why is this like cruise ships? I

It's a "luxurious experience" fueled by slave labor.

me_me_me4• 5 years ago

You tip dishwasher or floor cleaners?

Cruise ships are set up to exploit every loophole out the being a legal entity on international waters under flag of loophole county.

Everyone would be better of if that industry died already. Including environment.

maeln• 5 years ago

I don't know for the staff in the restaurant and entertainment position, but usually, the sailors are recruited from very poor country and paid very low wages. Only the captain and some officer are paid a decent salary.

TrackerFF• 5 years ago

Not sure what people on cruise ships get paid, but my old room mate from college got his Master's degree in nautical/maritime engineering, and went to work on huge cargo ship (the course of becoming a captain). Apparently the pay was almost unlivable, for the first 2-3 of years - under minimum wage, by western standards. And 90% of the crew were from Philippines etc. Should be mentioned that my friend was not a deckhand, but worked with the officers on the bridge.

Where I'm from (Norway), and probably most seafaring nations in the west, this has been an issue for years - social dumping by using Asian labor.

dazc3• 5 years ago

The public-facing people maybe paid OK, the people you don't see are certainly not.

FDSGSG6• 5 years ago

Dunno, I've known lots of rich kids who flew private to work these kinds of unpaid internships. They seem to think that the experience was more than worth it, at the very least it's something to brag about in any food related conversation.

rich_sasha• 5 years ago

[...] that makes a few people obscenely rich [...]

No contest that relying on unpaid labour is awful. But "obscenely rich"? My overwhelming impression is that despite all this, no one really gets rich on running restaurants. Certainly not when you factor them going out of business all the time (or even falling out of fashion, that's basically death for a Michelin starred eatery).

734129837261• 5 years ago

Yeah, most restaurant owners, regardless of the number of Michelin stars to their name, aren't rich at all. Nor are their top class chefs. You'd make more money working in IT and your hours are far less stressful.

If you want to make it big you need to treat it like a business, like Gordon Ramsay does. He owns 23 restaurants (maybe more) all over the world, his name is known by many, and the income from tv-shows would pay the bills by themselves; they also serve as advertisement for establishments with his name attached.

The few restaurant owners I know who make a good income here in Amsterdam tend to own more than 5 restaurants. Some have their own branding going on, some just take care of the business side of things. And even then I think it's a whole lot of work and stress for relatively little pay.

bjarneh3• 5 years ago

My overwhelming impression is that despite all this, no one really gets rich on running restaurants.

Simple napkin-math from when I was at the restaurant. I.e. multiplying the amount of people at restaurant by the number of days in a year they were open, multiplied by how much one of those "tasting menus + wine pairing" cost (which almost everyone buys); would suggest that their revenue would be somewhere in the range of 20-30 million dollars in revenue a year. That restaurant is always full, I think we booked our table 6 months in advance.

Clearly they serve you expensive wine, and a lot of expensive produce goes into their food making. But I would guess that the main cost of running that place would be the cost of paying the employees; which they don't. That 3-star restaurant (and many others), are making their owners extremely rich.

The restaurant business is extremely competitive, and most businesses struggle, but some are making good money. I live in a small town in Norway (200.000 inhabitants), and even here there is a guy who runs a bunch of restaurants, with profits in excess of 3 million dollars annually.

thefounder• 5 years ago

> that makes a few people obscenely rich

For some reasons I thought these restaurants are actually not very profitable .

FDSGSG6• 5 years ago

They aren't, it's a constant struggle for survival unless you become Gordon Ramsay.

If someone wanted to make money with restaurants they'd probably be better off sticking to something that scales better.

WastingMyTime893• 5 years ago

Considering the owners of Arzak are not in jail and that not paying your workers would be a serious violation of Spain labor laws, I am going to go on a limp and posit that what you say is probably not entirely true.

dazc3• 5 years ago

I lived in Spain for a couple of years and I was of the understanding that many bars, cafes and restaurants existed on this basis.

A waiter in a restaurant I frequented regularly explained this to me as to how, despite working there for 3 years, he couldn't just go and work in the UK for a few months and come back because he could so easily be replaced.

I witnessed myself, on many occasions, groups of kids coming in, filling in forms and being interviewed for these non-paid intern positions.

If I am wrong about these people not being paid it is because I was specifically told this, it isn't something I just assumed.

tolai• 5 years ago

It is true, and was quite the scandal a couple of years ago. If you can read Spanish, here's a piece explaining what happened

(Michelin-starred chefs defend unpaid internships) https://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2017-05-01/michelin-ar...

jhgb4• 5 years ago

i.e. the only "salary" is that you can add working in a 3 star restaurant to your CV.

Spain has salaries? I thought that was largely a US concept.

Cederfjard4• 5 years ago

Do you mean as in being paid a fixed sum for a given period, as opposed to by hours worked or something? No, that’s a worldwide thing, and a very old concept.

krageon• 5 years ago

staff are often unpaid

No. Perhaps you have found an example of this (which I doubt strongly), but this is not something that happens "often".

olivierduval3• 5 years ago

Surprising!!! It's not possible in France, because internship is always paid... and quite well paid in 3 stars restaurants

dopidopHN• 5 years ago

I don’t know for Spain, but unpay internship are illegal in France.

Also, I doubt the staff member are interns?

Markoff• 5 years ago

never ate in Michelin star restaurants, but judging by my experiences with more expensive restaurants I can genuinely say the tastiest best food I have in my life was from street stands in Penang (Georgetown), nothing from more expensive restaurants came ever even close

I guess I am not sophisticated enough to appreciate wasted money

dr_hooo• 5 years ago

In those days, drink and driving wasn’t a factor, so half a bottle of wine with dinner every night

This surprised me a little. Was drinking and driving so much more prevalent in the past?

olivierduval3• 5 years ago

Well, "half a bottle" was then considered just "normal" (one for lunch, one for dinner), like if you drank a soda. After all, it was "just wine" and everybody was supposed to still be "sober" and able to drive... Troubles started after a bottle of wine ;-)

FDSGSG6• 5 years ago

It's still the norm in much of Europe, I wouldn't be surprised if half of Europeans would consider it OK to drive home after half a bottle of wine.

martijn_himself2• 5 years ago

One thing that definitely resonates with me is his mention of sauces when he explains the differences between star ratings.

Quite often when I visit a great restaurant I find its a sauce that lifts a dish from the good to memorable. I always thought that was because of the stock made from scratch. This is quite hard to replicate at home- store bought stock cubes add very little depth of flavour to a dish and making stock from scratch, well, unless you have a lot of time on your hands its not going to happen.

throwaway0a5e• 5 years ago

Quite often when I visit a great restaurant I find its a sauce that lifts a dish from the good to memorable. I always thought that was because of the stock made from scratch.

Or from knowing exactly what materials or procedures to add to the "school cafeteria" sauce your food service supplier delivers to make it work great with your dish.

arethuza2• 5 years ago

"mention of sauces when he explains the differences between star ratings"

That's pretty much my view of bacon sandwiches - without "brown" sauce they are pretty good, but with "brown" sauce they are the food of the gods.

prometheus762• 5 years ago

Buying a rotisserie chicken and throwing it in an instant pot with some carrots, onions, celery, and enough water to cover it (and some thyme, rosemary, and bay leaves) for an hour or so has surprisingly good results, and is fairly easy to do. Pour the liquid through a strainer. I pour it into ice cube trays and freeze it, so I can just grab a couple of cubes when I'm making a pan sauce or soup.

morley• 5 years ago

It's easy enough to start with an uncooked chicken, or better yet, wings for the high collagen content. When you start with a rotisserie chicken, you've a lost a lot of the chicken's flavor to the roaster's drip pan.

jasonladuke03112• 5 years ago

You can make and freeze demi-glace cubes. Cool trick I saw on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IERauv-k5wo

EDIT: Forgot to add, fish sauce also adds a lot of umami and depth.

rednerrus• 5 years ago

If you live in a city, go find a specialty grocery store and ask them for stock and demi. They'll get you restaurant quality versions of both items.

martijn_himself2• 5 years ago

That's some really good advice. I must give that a try, thanks.

vander_elst• 5 years ago

I'd be curious to know more about how they assure the same evaluation quality in different continents. I've been to several starred restaurants in Europe and US, but I had VERY different experiences: the quality of food and service were on two completely different levels (yes, I read that's more about the food, but I'd still expect a certain quality when it comes to service as well).

Confessions of a Michelin Star Inspector

Related Stories