On Being an Outsider

https://lithub.com/on-being-an-outsider-words-by-charles-simic-photos-romeo-alaeff/

by ohaikbai • 5 years ago

112 105 5 years ago

I have always loved Japan. I visited once, and made plans to move there. I lived in the heart of Tokyo for three years. I made a lot of friends, but being a white American, I came to grasps that I would always be a Gaijin, and that I would never fit in, no mater how well I spoke Japanese or adopted to their customs. I left Japan to focus on my future somewhere back in America. 10 years later I booked a three week trip in Japan. Upon returning, it was bitter sweet. Most of the friends I had, had moved on. The city was now very touristy. And while I loved the food and culture, I knew that I would never live in Japan again. But I still love it more than anything.

spaetzleesser2• 5 years ago

I kind of have always felt like an outsider in the culture I grew up in. So I actually prefer to be in a country where I am visibly an outsider because it feels more congruent and weird behavior from me is also easier to excuse or accept.

Baeocystin• 5 years ago

I feel the same as you. I grew up as a kid with parents in the Foreign Service, so we country-hopped every year or so until I was a teen, when we moved back to the US.

That was (by far) the most difficult move, because there was no longer an obvious indicator that I wasn't from wherever there was. Acculturation was difficult.

Honestly, I never felt bad about being a foreigner anywhere else. Most people didn't care, and of those who did, most were honestly curious, and it was a fun way to start a conversation and potentially make a new friend. Negative attention was present, too, but the friendly outweighed the suspicious by a large margin.

em-bee4• 5 years ago

i had that experience as well, but i noticed that once i had a family i didn't care about that anymore, and i also feel that the older i get, the more i get to attribute differences to my age

bluedino2• 5 years ago

Similar story, I had a friend who was born in Korea, came to the USA as a child, and was deported back to Korea at age forty. He felt like an outsider there, and four years later, committed suicide after a bout with depression.

lambdatemp3• 5 years ago

That sounds horrible, normally the courts show leniency in these cases as deporting someone that old is basically a death sentence.

Was he not able to hire a lawyer?

cl0ne• 5 years ago

I have a friend from Japan who has lived in the US for over 25 years or so. A couple years ago he went back to visit family and said that people were treating him very strangely because he is Japanese and speaks the language, but he was having to ask people how to do everyday things like buy train tickets because everything is so different from when he grew up there.

daenz2• 5 years ago

Do you feel like being considered a gaijin was a form of racism towards you?

emteycz3• 5 years ago

Why do you think skin color is the driving factor? People normally consider each other aliens even if they have the same skin color.

throway98752343• 5 years ago

Not OP, but somewhat similar situation and conclusion.

Racism is too strong a word, it's more like sticking out. Like if you're the only one in large group who has black hair, or doesn't have a beard, or is a childless adult, or is religious, the assumptions of the group will from time to time remind you (and perhaps others) that you're unusual. I believe those are what are called micro-aggressions, though there need not be anything antagonistic about them.

It's fun to be different, exotic even, but it's also tiring, especially once the novelty has worn off and you just want to live like everyone else.

mayormcmatt• 5 years ago

This is a virtual mirror of my history with Japan: three years (except I was in the rural 'burbs for 2/3 of it), have returned to visit friends a couple times, but it's always bittersweet. In fact, almost everyone I know who was there for two-plus years have told me they experience this.

The one good thing about being an outsider there is people who would be guarded towards other Japanese really seem to open up if one is warm and receptive. I've had friends confide things in my they wouldn't tell their families, and I've had more than one sit-down drink with gangsters that saw me, presumably, as a novelty. It's like, "he's an outsider who's leaving soon, so why not?"

mixmastamyk• 5 years ago

The "little tokyo" neighborhood of a large North American city would probably be a comfortable place.

xwolfi3• 5 years ago

Something that helped me in Hong Kong (am French) was also to marry very local, and have a child. First, that helps for all that very difficult negociation in Cantonese on rent price, bill setup and all the crap the employees are a bit lazy to translate for you.

But it also gives you an unremovable link to the country. Yes I'll be a Gweilo forever in their eyes, and they barely understand when I say I'm more Chinese now than their children who spent less time here, and paid no taxes.

I guess it's fine not to fit in perfectly, it's not very important: when you make a choice to immigrate, your reasons for doing so must be both about the new country but also the old one. I have no qualms saying I gave away France, I left it knowing what I was abandonning and why, and now I can only move forward.

It's also true that I never fit in in France: I was anti-socialist, from a family that has owned small businesses for generations, believe in capitalism, free market, all these stuff that made me always make enemies in France.

Maybe I'm a gweilo, but I think all the same things they do, and I'd defend the country just as well as them.

woutr_be• 5 years ago

I feel you. Having lived in HK for 8 years now. I hold a permanent HKID, and consider HK my home. I've been trough the protests in 2014, and the ones in 2019, it was mentally draining because it's hard to discuss these subjects with locals. To them, you're just a foreigner that can leave any time he wants. When you disagree on certain political things, you'll often hear; "you're just a foreigner, you don't understand", and there's nothing you can say to that.

I've come to terms with it tho, accepting that even though this is my home, I'll never be truly accepted or be able to fit in.

But I also think this has made me a better person. Having experienced racism multiple times here, I'm much more aware of my own actions.

cyberlab• 5 years ago

Although impostor syndrome is usually talked about in the context of the workplace, not being a 'foreigner' in another city.

BugsBunny19912• 5 years ago

Doesn't seem related at all.

bobthechef• 5 years ago

Live in this world, but be not of this world.

If you feel like a foreigner in this world, then that is a good sign. This is not ultimately your true home.

FredPret• 5 years ago

You mean it was a mistake for our distant ancestors to grow feet and walk the earth and that we should return to the deep from whence we came?

User23• 5 years ago

No, parent poster is evidently a dualist and believes our true home is spiritual and not material.

collaborative2• 5 years ago

Nice one. Reminds me of "don't forget you were slaves in Egypt".

ReactiveJelly• 5 years ago

If my true home has people in it, I'll probably be an outsider there, too.

I'll hedge my bets here. 100 years is too long to sit on my hands.

ilaksh3• 5 years ago

I think your experience as an outsider is really going to depend on how you socialize, how much you do it, with whom, and other specific aspects of your situation. Such as which specific businesses you frequent.

Some specific people will treat you more warmly than others. Some neighborhoods or neighbors will have more culture in common and with yours.

That's the experience that I've had living in a few different parts of the US and Mexico.

One thing that mitigates all of that a bit is the internet. Hacker News, for example, is the same place for everyone, in a way.

For me, I have always had poor social skills and little integration into communities, so it's not a big difference really. Other people who thrive on constant face-to-face social interaction may find things like language or cultural barriers to be more of an issue. But again, really depends who you are talking to. If the locals seem put off by your accent or something, the next bar over may be full of Americans if you are near a tourist area.

But on a deeper level, there certainly are real social consequences of being an outsider, as well as potentially a psychological disconnect if things always feel slightly off from the world that your brain grew up in.

deepsun• 5 years ago

I think your experience as an outsider is really going to depend on how you socialize ...

I'd disagree. Sometimes it's about who you are, not about what you do. In some societies you can blend in easily (like San Francisco), in some -- there's no chance, no matter what you do.

ilaksh3• 5 years ago

True that some societies are much more open or blending in is easier.

Still think most of the other things I said apply if you include all of the context rather than just what you quoted.

xwolfi3• 5 years ago

You can change who you are. Really. In fact if you immigrate, I'd argue you must.

You'll never change your physical appearance, but you can change everything else, your name, your language, your ideas. Don't immigrate if you don't love the local customs so much you're ready to die for them.

em-bee4• 5 years ago

i found it helpful to join groups with activities of interest to me. for example in all the cities where i lived, i joined local linux user groups which always helped me to find friends.

those people often see themselves as outsiders as well, so they share your feelings even if they are locals. welcome to the local outsiders club. hackerspaces work like that too.

other not so popular activities work as well. if you play an instrument, irish folk sessions are easy to join. you don't even need to talk to anyone, just join in to play and you'll be welcome.

if you have kids, boy/girl scouts can be good to. if your kids have trouble finding friends in school, then being part of such a group will help them find a few kids that they have a special interest in common with.

martial arts i believe are also a good choice because they have a stronger focus on discipline and mutual respect than groups that just meet for fun. you can focus on your training while meeting people with the same interest.

drummer• 5 years ago

Some really nice photos in the article.

Magi604• 5 years ago

Indeed!

robotresearcher• 5 years ago

Spectacular use of color, sometimes in bars across the image despite the color sources not being the same. Photographers: do you see a lot of postprocessing here, or is it largely in camera?

munificent• 5 years ago

I think there is a decent amount of postprocessing, but I don't consider that a slight against the photos. Photography is an art that takes place equally behind the camera and in the darkroom (or Lightroom as the case may be).

I see:

* Very likely quite a bit of cropping going on. The framing on the subway fight is perfect, which I imagine would be hard to pull off in the time needed while the fight was occurring.

* Also likely some perspective correction in post. The horizontal and vertical lines of the office building are damn near pixel accurate. Even with a good tilt-shift lens, I'd be surprised if that was accomplished entirely in-camera. Most lenses have some amount of distortion.

* Color correction is common but hard to strictly demonstrate. But, in general, the color in all of these is too beautiful to be real to me.

* Some HDR, but well done (which is rare). Look at the shot of the party. You can see some texture on the dark building facade, even though the illumination of that is likely several orders of magnitude darker than the windows. The texture looks sort of weird and squishy, which likely means that the brightness of the building was raised significantly in post, or possibly even a combination of two shots with different exposures.

Wonderful work.

rorykoehler• 5 years ago

Most of them are in my neighbourhood. One is only a 2 minute walk away but I barely recognise it from the stylisation. I’ll never cease to be amazed at how the camera can create a narrative.

k__2• 5 years ago

I never felt at home anywhere and I never felt to be part of a group.

Somehow people around me always think the opposite. They're telling me I'm their best friend or at least that they value my attendance.

Overall, I'm okay with this. When I have to move or leave a group, I usually don't miss what I've left. I have the impression my life gets better when it changes.

But sometimes I think if my life would be better if I was more invested in belonging.

grugagag• 5 years ago

I’ve got a similar feeling. I’ve been friends with many people from different from different social categories but I’ve never felt I belonged to any particular group or place. At the time, somehow, I feel like a citizen belinging everywhere as I find joy in authenticity and have no trouble finding it in the most deserted or dilapidated places. Did you also feel like a wanderer? I think this is directly related to our personalities and no matter what you run into you’ll never get the feeling you you belong.

k__2• 5 years ago

I think, the authenticity thing is true for me.

I rarely do smalltalk, I talk about what interests me, usually the people I'm currently talking with.

f6v2• 5 years ago

I see people get integrated into society through children. You live in Berlin, you need to send your children to school, talk to the teachers, other parents. You drop your children off to the house parties, you talk about your profession in front of your child's class. German language becomes a clear necessity.

People also say joining some club helps. I did kickboxing for year, there isn't much talking as it turns out... Anyway, I was really homesick the whole time, I still am. In Russia, we don't celebrate Christmas that much, the New Year is a major holiday. That time of the year is the hardest: no familiar festive music, the street decorations are off.

I kind of accepted all that, since I decided to pursue professional and scientific opportunity instead of comfort. I still wonder if I make the right choices from time to time. I think it's natural to do that though.

wassenaar10• 5 years ago

Is there no Russian/ex-USSR expat community where you live?

f6v2• 5 years ago

I was lucky to work with many Russians at my last company in Berlin. At its peak we had all-Russian team, that was hilarious, cracking jokes all day like you never left home. So I wasn’t seeking anyone. But I hear Berlin has a large community. I was also lucky to live one train station away from the largest Eastern European grocery shop. The things you find there turn ordinary shopping into an adventure.

It’s different for smaller cities, since most young immigrants congregate in IT hubs. And there’s a huge difference to, say, Chinese or Thai. The latter seem to value their community much more that Russians.

BugsBunny19912• 5 years ago

My parents were taken in as refugees by the US when they were in their early twenties and now, over forty years later, they still wonder if it was the right decision to stay here. They've made it to the middle-class and that's a pretty amazing thing, but they know this isn't their home. To go back, even for a visit, is too painful. So much time has past that it's hard to say what there is to even return to.

Diederich• 5 years ago

they still wonder if it was the right decision to stay here

May I ask, what are the main reasons why they wonder that? Thanks.

theonething• 5 years ago

I'm curious about this too.

Tade0• 5 years ago

I wasn't born in my home country, and hadn't moved there permanently until I started primary school.

It's such a weird feeling to be an outsider among people who speak your language.

But there are upsides to this - not being too attached to a specific place allowed me to take advantage of a few unique opportunities.

logshipper2• 5 years ago

I moved for university to Toronto, Canada (from India) when I was 18. Despite having lived here for (nearly) 4 years, and loving absolutely every single minute of it, I don't know if and how I will ever be truly claim myself as being "from" Toronto.

Everytime someone here asks me where am I from, I genuinely don't know how to answer them.

Do I say I'm from India? Well, I haven't gone back once in these 5 years, and I do feel more at home here in Toronto than I would in India, so I'm not sure that's fair. So do I then say I'm from Toronto? But that feels almost like cheating - I didn't have a childhood here, I have no stories to recall from school trips, so how can I lay claim to this beautiful city?

I am coming to accept that I truly belong from nowhere. That I have transient experiences that stretch from Delhi to Mumbai to Chandigarh to Toronto to Ottawa (interned there for a year). The inherent complexity of the question "where are you from?" affords it no wrong or right answers, and at least theoretically, I should not be ashamed to claim the place I resonate with the most, or claim no place at all.

PS: Looking at the comments, it does feel nice to know that I am not the only one that somehow continues to seek a sense of belonging.

joefourier• 5 years ago

I think you're overthinking the "where are you from" question. While I do agree that moving at 18 isn't as clear-cut as say, 30+, in your case most people would safely say you're from India, having been born there and lived the majority of your years there. However, your home would now be Toronto, and you if you have Canadian citizenship no-one should bat any eyebrows at you calling yourself Canadian.

haecceity2• 5 years ago

I don't think OP is overthinking it at all. Home is not just a question of place of living but a question of identity and belonging. I'm guessing integrating into society in Toronto is difficult for OP so there's weak feeling of belonging in Toronto.

ShroudedNight• 5 years ago

As someone who grew up in Toronto, moved to Ottawa for University, and returned to the GTA for work, the thing that makes Toronto (especially the neighbourhood where I grew up) feel like home is a combination of deep familiarity with the city, a diverse set of memories of happy times untainted by adversary danger that are geographically rooted here, a strong sense of familiarity with assistive services, and (at least memories of) a strong social network.

In my case, being engaged with church was probably the most successful driver of these things. I'm in a very different place in terms of metaphysical beliefs now than I was growing up, but I can't deny the strong network effects of regularly meeting with a group of people that seek ostensibly compatible goals of self-improvement through empathy, service, and self-congratulation.

pedalpete• 5 years ago

I was born in Toronto, moved around a bunch as a kid, and Toronto just never felt like home. If I was going to Toronto, I'd never say "I'm going home to Toronto". I moved to Whistler, BC when I was 20, and lived there most of my life.

I now live in Sydney, Australia, and when I say "I'm going home", I mean I'm going to Whistler, not Toronto. Whistler feels like home.

Yet, when I say "I'm from Whistler", people always say "you were born there?" which is very rare, so I have to explain that I moved around a bunch and didn't have a place that felt like "home", which people then discount.

It's very strange, but at the same time, I've read a few people suggest that you're "from" the first place you consciously decided to move from and stayed.

partomniscient• 5 years ago

I don't think its that strange. Its just a side effect of those people who are and think of themselves as "from" where they grew up or first moved to projecting their way of thinking onto others. It's easier for them to shoehorn their version of your story/situation into their mental framework than it is to adapt their mental framework to handle your story/situation.

I still catch myself unecessarily projecting my way of thinking onto situations which distorts what is actually going on or loses information, just because its easier to do - not because its correct or fair.

They can misunderstand you, but they don't get to decide how you define 'home' to yourself, even if they discredit you.

mandeepj• 5 years ago

I’ve read the comments also. I can connect - having left India in 07 for US. Can’t we have “multi-homes”? Out of all these 14 years, I’ve lived in Chicago for 10. It feels home now. When I’m here, I don’t feel like going to India, and when I’m there, I don’t feel like coming back here. So, It’s tough.

When someone asks me - “where am I from?”. I say - India. Because, I do not have native US speaking skills and I also want to remain connected with my roots.

darkerside• 5 years ago

I'm trying to accept that "from" is an open ended term in that context. If somebody asks a question like that, they should be prepared for a conversation and maybe a story. If they get annoyed and want to boil it down to a specific question, then fuck them for trying to reductively label another person.

endgame• 5 years ago

Suggestion: Answer the question figuratively, not literally: "I call Toronto home", or "I call Toronto home, though I was born in India."

tayo42• 5 years ago

The question "where are you from" is vague. I think it always depends on the context and your current location. Like if you are living in Toronto and took a trip to the US, I think it's appropriate to answer Toronto. If your in a bar in Toronto and someone asks you that, I think it would be misleading to say your from Toronto as that would imply you grew up there.

I just think of the question as a conversation starter I guess, give as little or as much info as you want to give the asker lol

ipaddr• 5 years ago

Where you are from is a relative question.

If you are in the US you might say Canada. If you are in BC you might say Toronto or Ontario If you at the University of Guelph you might say UofT If you are in Toronto you might say India If you are in India in a different region you might say goa If you are in goa you might say your village name If you are in your village you might point to an area or your street If on your street you might give the number

Where you are from is closest place that is different to the other person.

jwilber• 5 years ago

Tbh I think four year into your adult life is quite a short amount of time to start claiming you’re from there. Maybe it’s cultural, but in America/Mexico or Europe that’d come off very strange and probably be met with eye rolls.

I think you’re affording far too much into the question- they probably just want to know where you were born.

But do you- nothing wrong with following the beat of your own drum.

notagoodidea• 5 years ago

First, it is normal to question where your belong and how your multiple experience, background and culture integrated construct your identity and your feeling to belong somewhere. This somewhere can multiple and also everywhere but feeling to belong nowhere is mostly due to the peer pressure to self-identity to only one element of your identity (being your culture, your skin tone, your born country, etc.) that feels like restraining yourself as one tiny part of the multiple identities you carry and have constructed.

One essential essay that really helped me and can not stop to suggest is "In the Name of Identity: Violence and the Need to Belong" by Amin Maalouf [1][2] The original title in French is "Les identités meurtrières" translated as "the murderous identities".

If I may, you are belonging from everywhere that feels home in a way or the other. And the more abroad you'll be, the more home will take multiple dimensions and it's okay. When someone ask you, you can answer "India and Canada" and let's them deal with it, not you :).

With my partner, we cover the ground about the identity questions : me being a second-generation son of arab's parent in an UE country, her being, like you, from a east-asian country but living abroad for 5-6 years now. The question of home, identity and where we belong is common and the answers morph based on where and how we live.

For me is funny, because when I identify myself from the city I was born and raised in UE, I got question about my origins like it is the "correct answer" but if someone from that city hears me speaking, they can't doubt I am from here because I used a lot of the specific slang/dialect from there. It happened a few time ago where a old man helping my mom told that "I can hear you are from here". On the flip coin, I also speak the dialectal Arab from my parent region (albeit with a UE accent) so people speaking Arab can identify from which region/country I must come from. So most of the time, I answer both and let people ask the uncomfortable questions about their conception of identities and where I belong/from themself. But that does not mean that I have dealed with my identity myself, I am still constructing it and trying to gather the different pieces together and glue them, especially now that I am living in yet another country :)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Name_of_Identity

[2] https://www.amazon.com/Name-Identity-Violence-Need-Belong/dp...

nickthemagicman• 5 years ago

I'm glad people are talking about this.

I think capitalism is extremely isolating.

You have to move for your job, so people have to cut all the ties that they've made, leave their communities, friends, families....all for money.

Sure you can make new ones, but after working and commuting for 8 to 10 hours a day you get home exhausted and on weekends you have to take care of personal errands.

Now multiply this times millions of people, it makes it very hard for multiple people to have the time and energy to forge a friendship that will take effort and time. Effort and time that people don't really have.

There's tons of studies about how isolated people become after college.

I don't know what the solution is.

Remote work is going to be awesome and huge to help with this.

collaborative2• 5 years ago

I think the post is more about the isolation that comes from utopic ideologies/nationalisms (via displaced "undesirable" persons) than about the failures of capitalism/communism etc. The dark pictures remind me of how an "undesirable" person feels in an intolerant society

bodegajed• 5 years ago

Remote work is going to be awesome and huge to help with this.

I dunno, I've seen too many remote job opening with must be located in US, Western EU location requirements

Edit: grammar and clarity

initramfs• 5 years ago

Great article, clarity of writing.

unobatbayar• 5 years ago

No matter where you're from or how you look like, if you live in London, it will always feel home.

ilaksh3• 5 years ago

I had the impression that you needed to be rich to live in London.

gbuk2013• 5 years ago

London is a big place.

M277• 5 years ago

Having been exposed to the internet at a very young age, I feel like an outsider in my own country and culture. There's just too much difference with others (hobbies, interests, way of thought... nearly everything), too much things I miss / don't (can't?) understand, and a lingering mental feeling that "I don't belong here". It's a really cold feeling that is always just there.

I was always lonely, but sometimes some people would be friendly towards me, and I'd feel sad... "Come play <some sport or a local game> with us," they'd say. "I would love to.... but I can't. I don't belong here," I'd think. Of course, I couldn't reply with that.

I don't really belong / resonate with foreign cultures either. The internet (at least the part I was on most of the time) is mostly Western, but there are many differences still.

My 'home' has become with individuals, instead. Some people really resonate with me and make me feel that I belong with them, that I am not a stranger, not an outsider. They are extremely rare, but they're here; parent and siblings, along with some very close friends. And I am honestly very thankful for their presence.

Communities like HN as well don't give me the "I don't belong here" feeling. I don't know why... maybe because I grew up with communities like this? (I grew up with the old forum boards of old. It's a shame that most are dead now.) Or maybe because these communities are mostly defined by their contributors, their users, and so I don't feel like a stranger? I am not sure, honestly.

I have been wanting to write about this for a while in full detail, but I haven't had the time unfortunately.

xwolfi3• 5 years ago

I don't know what you country is, but I've felt the same way as soon as I started understanding English, a semi-rare feat at the time in my city/region (Normandy, France). I've felt so alienated, having all my private life in English (news, podcast, books, discussions online) that after trying to make my gf of 6 years follow a bit, I decide to give it all up and move to a more English-speaking country (Hong Kong).

This was not the ONLY reason of course, but after having left behind all this frenchness, I have never felt so at home. Which is funny because there's nothing more foreign than a Normandy guy in Hong Kong, but at least here everything is in English, everyone speaks it to some extent while having another main language (so just like me).

I'll always be a foreigner in the eyes of Chinese people, for sure, but I'll never find a place with some many people like me, they even are majority right wing capitalists like me, something very rare in France :D

titzer• 5 years ago

I moved from the US to Germany and lived there for almost 7 years. Even as someone with German ancestry (from 5 generations ago), a German last name, and enough language skills to get by, you never really fit in. Germans are insular in a way that, I suppose, all people are, but a special kind of matter-of-fact curtness that is off-putting. Younger Germans are embarrassed by it and make a show of welcoming outsiders (e.g. the Syrian refugee situation), but deep down, the Germans don't want Germany being overrun by immigrants. I heard as much even from eastern Europeans who lived their whole lives in Germany.

I had to eventually move away, for various reasons, but being in a foreign land, alone, is alienating by default. You never really know the rules or customs, you have no shared cultural background, like TV shows or games, and the nuance of a foreign language is so deep.

periheli0n11• 5 years ago

I don’t think there is any country in the world that is truly and completely welcoming to immigrants. One is always the outsider. However what’s important to realise is that this is the default situation for most people, even is they just move town in their home country (although to a lesser extent).

varjag• 5 years ago

The one that you hear complaints about the most (the USA) comes in fact closest.

iovrthoughtthis• 5 years ago

country is a red flag here.

i don’t think there is a group of humans with a shared identity that is truly and completely welcoming to people outside of that identity.

which is why i don’t enjoy making country a part of my identity.

atoav2• 5 years ago

As an Austrian living in Germany I actually manage to not have them notice that I am from a country who was their enemy for centuries. Of course if I were to speak with my Austrian dialect they would barely understand me, but I don't, so whenever I bring it up they are usually quite surprised.

It also depends on your social circles and where in Germany you are. If you are in Berlin or Hamburg being German won't matter too much. If you are in the suburbs of shouthern or eastern German cities, much more so. If you are in the creative world of Berlin you might get away without talking German at all.

Given it's comparedly small size Germany has a surprisingly diverse regional culture, which is why people who know the regions well usually lough at the idea of something that is "real German". Or as the Austrians say it: "What divides us from the Germans, is the common language" and I'd argue Bavarian and northern German culture is equally far apart.

periheli0n11• 5 years ago

Precisely! Also, most southern Germans will understand your Austrian tongue very well. Berlin is full of “immigrants” from southern Germany, but they will go great lengths to hide it, for fear of being made fun of. The moral barrier that keeps most Germans from making fun of immigrants from other countries is void if they detect a “funny” German accent.

hoseja• 5 years ago

It has completely normal regional culture, it's all the other places with less of it that never developed it (US) or actively homogenized it (France, Russia...).

DocTomoe2• 5 years ago

Especially with Germany, this also is a cultural phenomeon - even for Germans, it is surprisingly hard to get into a group you are not a member of (especially if you go into the less hip, super-urban areas of Berlin, Cologne, Hamburg or Munich). Getting into the pack is hard, but once you're in, you got friends for life.

I can only imagine how hard that is for a foreigner.

periheli0n11• 5 years ago

I found it equally hard to "get in the pack" whether I moved town within Germany, or moved to France, or to the UK, or within the UK.

No matter where, it was always easiest to find friends among people who themselves have moved around a lot. People who always lived in the same place will almost always have their wall up, especially if they have the feeling that too many foreigners invade their home town.

brnt• 5 years ago

It's tempting to hold ones own N=1 for the generic case, but off course that can never be true.

I have found that variability within countries is higher than between (Western) countries. Which does not mean there are no mean differences, but with a limited sampling size you can get a very wrong impression.

Same reason you cannot possibly judge your own country BTW: you can't pass for an outsider, and you will have that almost innate shared set of references.

teraku• 5 years ago

I feel like there is a lot of mixture between being an outsider and alienated versus being lonely.

Being lonely has become such a huge factor in (especially young) people's lifes, because they need to hop cities for university and later jobs a few times before they start settling down, that a lot of the friends they make have moved away, or they themselves moved away from their friends and it's hard to find new friends. Sometimes your only new social interactions are at work, and in a country like Germany where work and private are strictly separated at first, this is a double whammy.

It also affects very old people, whose friends have died and whose children and their friends have moved away.

Solitude is endemic in the west.

periheli0n11• 5 years ago

Having moved country several times in my adult life, I wish to think that calling a new place one‘s “home” is a choice. Making a new home can be very hard though. Language, common customs, ways of interaction, all must be re-learned, new friends made. I think it is this huge effort that creates the barrier of calling a new place home.

ivan1783• 5 years ago

Born in the soviet union, moved to America as a refugee when I was a baby with my parents due to threats from the mafia. Later in life moved to Germany, where I still live today. I "grew up" Russian, I went to school American and I now am trying to fit into Germany. My (soon to be) wife is French. I cant speak any language properly any more (Russian, German, French, English) and have nowhere where I can clearly identify as "home". I feel the most at home in Germany, but I am clearly an outsider here and will always be (even if in some cases people don't notice I'm not German). Can totally understand this article, hits close to home.

el_ninjo• 5 years ago

Kad god odlučiš da se vratiš, tu smo <3

nicbou2• 5 years ago

I also live in Berlin, since about 6 years.

I think I'll always feel like an outsider here, but this city is very much my own.

Part of it comes from a personal investment in this city. I invested in its language and its bureaucracy. I have built a business with this city in its name, whose purpose is to help others who face the same bureaucratic and cultural challenges. I also moderated a Berlin-related community for a few years.

Another part is exploration. I actively seek new experiences in Berlin. I try new places, new dishes, new bike paths, new activities. I read about German culture and history, watched dozens of German movies, cooked German dishes, and all the other things.

The one missing part in my opinion is the social aspect, and I blame myself for it. I usually keep to myself, and didn't take learning German seriously enough for a while. Yet, it took me so long to make friends and become comfortable with the language that it's my strongest attachment to the city. I'm not ready to start over again.

By now if I went back to my home country, I'd feel much more alienated. I have spent the better part of my adult life in Berlin. It's where everything I built lies.

periheli0n11• 5 years ago

Of all large German cities, Berlin is probably the most unwelcoming... or rather, the Berliners are. The typical Berliner seems to take a certain pride in being unfriendly and even hostile. Funny enough, I often found that they open up when one is unfriendly to them in return. Difficult though when one is not aware of the subtleties of the language. But to be fair, it's not just non-Germans who struggle with that aspect of Berliner culture; most non-Berlin/Brandenburg Germans are irritated by it, too.

nicbou2• 5 years ago

I do notice a difference between Berlin and Brandenburg. When I venture beyond the city limits, people greet you, and tend to make small talk more easily (not that I start it myself). It's something I also enjoyed in the south of Germany. It was certainly hard to adjust to it, coming from a small Canadian city. My favourite part of visiting North America is being friendly and chatty with everyone.

The Berliner Schnauze is certainly a real thing, but I don't think it's that common. More common perhaps is Ausländer using the term to excuse their unpleasant behaviour. I've seen that a lot more.

mmmmmbop• 5 years ago

Of all large German cities, Berlin is probably the most unwelcoming

You really think so? I was under the impression that Munich is the most unwelcoming city.

maniatico• 5 years ago

As a Venezuelan in Europe this feeling is eerily familiar. Including being the enjoyer of a communist utopia and whose family resisted the fascists of the 50s. Furthermore with mixed feeling on what to call home, given that what used to be home is still burning and you have family and friends still there

On Being an Outsider

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