Estate agent's hi-tech house tour exposes personal data

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56718046

by salgernon • 5 years ago

87 88 5 years ago

cortesoft3• 5 years ago

This is basically like an open house. They should have prepped the house the same way before taking these photos.

The high tech part seems not really related. The same thing would have happened with plain photos, or an in person open house.

munk-a3• 5 years ago

They should've but the tech part is relevant. Obvious bad actors that are snooping around in open houses are certainly an issue but can be remediated a lot easier - you can kick those visitors out and bar folks with a history of snooping from entry - both of which work relatively well on the local level.

I think tech is specifically relevant here since this is another clear example of scaling up beyond cultural norms using technology causing emergent security issues - the issues were present all along but there were some systems in place to limit how harmful they could be and technology has released us from those limits.

emodendroket5• 5 years ago

Typically in an open house just anybody can walk in, can’t they? It’s not like they ask you for ID.

brundolf• 5 years ago

scaling up beyond cultural norms

This is a great way of framing a certain class of problems that I think people on HN tend to dismiss. "Technically we're doing the same thing as before!" Yes, but as we should all know from the engineering side of things, scale is still very relevant.

bennyp101• 5 years ago

It's exactly the same as when they used to take internal photos of properties, only you can zoom and move around now in better detail.

When we had ours done last year, I treated it the same as when we had the internal photos done - tidy everything up, put identifiable documents away, strategically place items over the logos/names of things.

I did notice that when we went to view some properties in person, that there were personal items out on display - but the photos online were clear of anything - so it's more down to the homeowner than anyone else.

The guide we got before any photos etc clearly stated to put away anything you didn't want others to see, both for in person and for online.

"The BBC has alerted the Information Commissioner's Office." - I'm not sure why? If the homeowner missed it, and didn't follow instructions to remove before the photos, then I'm not sure that it is the fault of the agent at all.

Edit - This is from the guide we got sent after a call discussing the same things:

- The entirety of your home will be captured by the tour, and every detail will be picked up – so remove anything you don’t want seen, i.e., family photographs, clutter or boxes - Don’t leave pictures, portraits or drawings up that you don’t wish to be photographed (typically, portrait images where the person would be recognisable) - Don’t leave valuables and possessions in sight which you don’t want others to see - Please note: The technology does not allow for edits or retakes, so please ensure your home is exactly how you want it to be seen!

open-source-ux• 5 years ago

"clues about their political views based on their choices of reading material"

Interesting. Millions of people have work-related zoom meetings (or publicly posted webinars) while sitting in front of their bookshelves. Many people don't have a problem with that. Some of those books might even be strategically placed so that they are in clear view. You can discern a little about someone's interests by what's on their bookshelves, but perhaps not always accurately.

I wonder how people feel about displaying the contents of their bookshelf online while onscreen? I'm guessing for most people it's not a concern.

Here's Bret Victor's bookshelf from 2015 which we posted himself on his website. Click to zoom: http://worrydream.com/Shelf2015/

vmception2• 5 years ago

I don't even open my kindle app around people anymore because of that assumption

Glad I never got into bookshelves (and that nobody of child bearing age judges people on the lack of physically displayed books in their dwelling)

Robotbeat• 5 years ago

I don’t judge people by lack of bookshelves, but I actually LOVE looking at folks’ bookshelves. It basically tells you what their interests & philosophical history were from age 18 to 30 (and mostly in the college years) in a concise way.

People change a lot over time; I don’t judge people on what they have on their bookshelf, but it definitely provides fast context for their worldview, providing background for who they are today and how their opinions developed. It provides an immediate jumping off point to discuss common interests and ideas.

There’s nothing better for this purpose.

smthngwitty• 5 years ago

You can even buy 'Books by the Foot'[1] on a particular topic to dress up your Zoom set up.

[1] https://www.booksbythefoot.com/

notsureaboutpg• 5 years ago

This sucks. Just because I read or own a book does not mean I agree with what's written inside it. You can never learn things you don't agree with if you won't even read them or if people will assume you believe everything in a book you read.

spitfire• 5 years ago

"clues about their political views based on their choices of reading material"

This is exactly why I put Karl Marx next to F a Hayek. It's like a social logic bomb.

bentcorner• 5 years ago

Many people don't have a problem with that.

My workplace has specific training to use the blurring feature of the conferencing app we use, specifically for security/privacy reasons. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that other work places do the same thing.

self_buddliea• 5 years ago

Third column from the left, second row from the top, you see a copy of Euclid's Elements. Pull that out to open the door to Bret's secret lair.

cmeacham982• 5 years ago

I wonder how people feel about displaying the contents of their bookshelf online while onscreen? I'm guessing for most people it's not a concern.

While many people don't go around advertising their interests, political affiliation, etc - I doubt they would be too worried if you could guess it from their bookcase. Most people don't consider it particularly private information in my experience.

sib3• 5 years ago

My (now-deceased) stepfather was Jewish and a historian. He focused on WWII and the US Civil War. When he and my mom went to sell their house about 12 years ago, the listing agent walked through and said, "Oh, you should probably clear out the bookcase a bit."

My stepfather had more than an entire shelf of books on Hitler in the living room as he had been working on an article about him.

Needless to say, my stepdad took the hint.

croutonwagon• 5 years ago

Some of those books might even be strategically placed so that they are in clear view. You can discern a little about someone's interests by what's on their bookshelves, but perhaps not always accurately.

That was VERY obvious with public figures during the last year. I actually laughed a few times at the dichotomy of either partially empty shelves with these weird "poignant" books on prominent display. I usually pondered if they had actually read some of them...

stordoff• 5 years ago

You can discern a little about someone's interests by what's on their bookshelves

And perhaps learn a little more than you expected: https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/bbc-wales-today-viewers-... (somewhat NSFW)

Some of those books might even be strategically placed so that they are in clear view.

Or just not even bother with the books in the first place: https://www.indy100.com/news/trump-erin-elmore-bookcase-sky-...

myself248• 5 years ago

What's obnoxious is there's no interface to go in and blur the photos after they're taken. The software just isn't built for it; it's meant for agents to operate with little to no technical knowledge.

bigmattystyles• 5 years ago

If ever there was a job for ML. It seems like text detection and a classifier of what the text is, then blur that part of the photo. Same with brand names, art and logos in TV shows.

aaron695• 5 years ago

A good example of how the internet is not compareable to real life. Whenever someone handwaves "but that's always happened"

In person, the chance of a local person traveling to your house to photograph a cheque is non-existent.

On the internet you can script a search of all homes. Its all about the ability to search quickly.

I see companies are getting photos of my front door now when packages get delivered. I wonder what we can get from that....

munk-a3• 5 years ago

Maybe put a QR code on your door and see where you get hits from?

Alternatively set up a honeypot by gluing a fake bill to your mailbox as if it's a letter dangling out with some personal information on the envelope? It'd be interesting to see if anyone is running any automatic extraction over pictures of mailboxes.

cmeacham982• 5 years ago

A good example of how the internet is not compareable to real life. Whenever someone handwaves "but that's always happened"
In person, the chance of a local person traveling to your house to photograph a cheque is non-existent.

This is the digital version of an open house. The same mitigation that prevents this behavior from happening in real life (i.e. setting up the house in a way where guests can't see your personal info) would have fixed the problem here.

I can personally guarantee that criminals target physical "real life" open houses too, as it happened to someone I know. I suppose the internet does make it lower effort to exploit (especially from across the world), but it's at least 'comparable' in my opinion.

ekrebs• 5 years ago

Agents and homeowners have been taking photos of homes for sale for decades, and all sorts of private info has leaked this way. I’m in the industry on the tech side and I’ve seen photos of people naked in mirrors, signed documents, children, hobbies/interests, framed photos saying things like “Joseph Edward Smith - born Aug 6, 2010”, bills and more.

This technology makes it more likely for the volume of leaked data to increase, and the photo resolutions give more data per image, but agents have been trained to stage houses for a long time and should be expected to handle this. Blame the agent.

Although the tech certainly has room for improvement. All it takes is for someone to sue Zillow for exposing their private images online for automatic blurring technology to magically appear.

LordOfWolves• 5 years ago

Beyond assisting with contractual matters and negotiation, I feel this is the last value proposition of real estate agents.

We've had videos and virtual tours for a long time. I no longer need someone to show me around a physical space.

Making the process of searching for - and hopefully purchasing - your "dream home" as smooth and safe as possible is arguably the best way for these agents to retain their jobs as we enter an age where much of what they do can be automated.

HeyLaughingBoy• 5 years ago

I disagree. I found a lot of value in my realtor learning what we were looking for in a house and only showing me the ones he thought we would like. Some things can't be reduced to search terms.

Now, whether or not that's worth the high percentage they skim off the top is a whole 'nother question.

cgriswald2• 5 years ago

I thought my current house was garbage when I saw it on a virtual tour and only went to view it to amuse my agent who claimed he had found my house. I was skeptical but there’s a lot that doesn’t translate and my agent was right.

Swizec2• 5 years ago

Like many other professionals, their services are only valueable if you value your time.

I don’t want to become an expert in real estate. I just want a place that matches my needs, has the right mojo, and fits my budget. I have time to see 3 places.

When that’s you, suddenly realtors (or a bored spouse with lots of free time) are crazy valuable.

MereInterest2• 5 years ago

I can see having the virtual tours as a first pass to avoid needing to drive over, but they can't replace a physical tour at all. There's no sense of scale or size in the virtual tour, as images on a screen feel much different than being somewhere. You can't tell if the house smells of mildew. You can't have stand in the kitchen while somebody walks upstairs to see how much sound carries through the floorboards.

meroes• 5 years ago

I no longer need someone to show me around a physical space.

Yes you do. Sellers get to be picky. Especially in Covid. They aren't letting in looky-loos. At bare minimum you need to have an agent and pre-approval as a buyer so you come across as serious and interested, or you aren't getting into homes right now (speaking of Bay Area).

And if you aren't going in person, you shouldn't be submitting offers.

hellbannedguy• 5 years ago

I'm shocked Realator's even exist today. That shock is 10 fold for what they financially make too. I imagine a few percent of the cheerleaders/pretty boys make a lions share though?

Eight courses, and a easy test, and you are set to go. Two years experience under a Broker (CA law) was passed a few years. (The experience bill was heavily lobbied by Realator's lobby, and sadily--Gov. Brown signed it. During the hearing 1 example of inexperience was noted as the reason for the change in requirements. A four year degree was all that was required before Realtor's got their mitts on a bill.

The result has been less competition among brokers, while their job has gotten easier. Easier in terms of digital hone showings, and all their other tech being thrown at them.

The biggest schmoozer, or cheerleader, are usually the only one's making a very comfortable living?

I never thought I would say this, but I'm waiting for the profession to be gone.

It's just an added expense to overpriced homes. 6% on a 2 million house is crazy, and I'm even a fan of paying full commissions.

jhrozek• 5 years ago

Your comment reads as you don’t need a realtor as a buyer — and I agree to an extent. I always thought that the service was provided for the seller

Things our agent did I would not have done or not done properly on top of the paperwork and legal advice:

- got us in touch with home stylist and a photographer who were great

- had a phone book of prospective customers looking for a place like ours

- followed up with people who were interested and arranged a second showing

About the commissions, either it is very regional or we were lucky but we agreed on a flat fee plus some percent if and only if the price goes above some target.

ainiriand• 5 years ago

If there is human/human interaction and mediation and negotiation over hundreds of thousands of dollars there is always going to be a human in the middle. Always.

danielbarla• 5 years ago

All it takes is for someone to sue Zillow for exposing their private images online for automatic blurring technology to magically appear.

Honestly, I would expect such an event to lead to an indemnity clause magically appearing in their future contracts - it's the lowest effort option which gives sufficient defense.

paxys• 5 years ago

Blame the agent, not the tech. Removing private documents from view, covering photos etc. is like home staging 101.

chrisseaton4• 5 years ago

We don't really do 'home staging' in the UK, so they wouldn't have known this.

Mauricebranagh2• 5 years ago

Its a thing for high end properties - but for the average right move property not so much.

alexwasserman• 5 years ago

I’ve also seen the reverse happen recently.

A neighbor listed their house, then watched through their many home cams as people came for viewings.

As they walked through the house she looked them up on social media, made easier having actually seen them to match faces to names.

Then start ranking prospective buyers by their social media profiles, and behavior in her house as they looked around. The cams have mics so she could hear comments too.

Overall was pretty horrific to see how she profiled people.

Slippery_John• 5 years ago

Why would she care so much - she's not living there anymore and isn't renting it so she'll never have to deal with them again.

websites2323• 5 years ago

There’s a weird thing where home sellers are encouraged to be mindful of who they sell to. For example, in hot markets, couples buying a single family home are directed by their agent to send a photo of themselves and a letter talking about how much they want to be a part of the community, why that house is perfect, etc. I’ve never done this, primarily because I suspect we’d open ourselves to discrimination, but it’s a thing.

warkdarrior• 5 years ago

Sometimes people make friends in the neighborhood and care about who takes over their house, as it may affect how their neighborhood friends see them.

azinman2• 5 years ago

and said the estate agent "takes our clients' privacy very seriously"

Always the de facto statement from the people that leak your data. I’d love to see a criminal say to the judge “I take your laws very seriously.”

teekert4• 5 years ago

Why would you go through the trouble of making such an expensive and fancy 3d rendering but not through the trouble of cleaning the house a bit. I think these people have their priorities wrong.

tobr• 5 years ago

Are you sure it’s so expensive? Not sure how mature the technology is, but I imagine you could do it by just hauling around a tripod with a special camera. If so, it would be a lot less effort than a complete tidying up.

teekert4• 5 years ago

Well, maybe true. Depends on what the realtor charges for it then.

diggernet4• 5 years ago

It's an iPhone app. You walk through the house waving your phone around and you are done.

https://matterport.com/3d-camera-app-iphone

Avalaxy2• 5 years ago

How van you even sell a house like this? The pictures are a giant mess. In my country you'd clean up the whole house, remove anything personal and get a professional photographer to take pretty photos.

chrisseaton4• 5 years ago

We don’t ‘stage’ houses to sell them in the UK. If nobody else is doing it you don’t need to do it yourself.

michaelt2• 5 years ago

Sure we do. 95% of people selling a house will do quite a bit of cleaning and tidying before getting it photographed for sale.

Take a look at the property photos for some random homes on rightmove - every bed is made, every child's toy put away, every coffee table and nightstand free of books - there isn't even a towel in the kitchen or a toothbrush in the bathroom.

Almost nobody lives that way - they've just done a few hours of cleaning and tidying. Which is completely rational, if you're selling a home for hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Black101• 5 years ago

Redfin did one of those when I sold my house and the agent was really good about telling me what to move... including personal pictures off the walls and staying away from the windows when they were doing the outside pictures, etc...

matbilodeau• 5 years ago

I was reading a local paper and came across this : https://www.lapresse.ca/maison/immobilier/2021-04-13/le-tour... The article states a name that doesn't ring a bell and mentions she owns the property with her partner.

When visiting the link to the realtor's platform you are greeted by that 3d model. Some faces are blurred out, but mostly on paintings and some statues so I think the realtors just use automation and call it done.

Visiting the study, I zoomed in on a cabinet with trophies and awards. Turns out you can read the name of that person on some awards, view his face on a photograph. https://www.viacapitalevendu.com/montreal-ville-marie-montre...

Searching for the name in the article confirms she is the partner of a major news anchor in Montreal Qc. and that this is their house.

I understand public figures need their privacy but obscurity shouldn't be solely relied on, especially if you have a newspaper advertising your house without saying it is your house.

Estate agent's hi-tech house tour exposes personal data

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