New England Almost Seceded over the War of 1812 (2012)

https://www.wbur.org/radioboston/2012/06/15/new-england-succession

by rfreytag • 5 years ago

43 81 5 years ago

They started to harass American merchant vessels, Britain in particular, to the point of literally kidnapping sailors off U.S. ships and drafting them into the Royal Navy. In euphemistic Brit-speak that was called "impressment."
"Probably in the neighborhood of 6,000 Americans were impressed by the British leading up to the war of 1812," estimates James Ellis, author of "A Ruinous, Unhappy War: New England and the War of 1812." "This was a real sore point."

Just to give some context impressment had been going on for a long time before that, and by the battle of Trafalgar (1805) over half(!!!) of the navy's 120K men were people pressed into service.

thaumasiotes2• 5 years ago

Euphemistic? Not only is it just a direct description of the process, it was, as you would expect, a word to curse by for anyone at risk of being subject to it.

Look at these lyrics from a 19th-century ballad (about, in fact, the battle of Trafalgar):

There was thirteen on the press-gang, they did my love surround

and four of that accursed gang went bleeding to the ground

My love was overpowered, though he fought most manfully

They dragged him through the dark, wet streets toward the Victory

http://ballads.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/search/roud/2278

Zenst5• 5 years ago

Related was how the Navy used to recruit, was case of if they could pass you a coin (shilling iirc) you had taken the kings money and was duly obliged to serve.

What would happen is they would drop coins into unsuspecting drinks in the local taverns and the drinker would suddenly find himself drinking and then touching the coin onto his lips on the last drink (something like that). So to avoid this the trend was to have drinking tankards with a glass bottom, so the drinker could check he was not being press-ganged into the navy.

ok did quick google and wiki does more service to this than my memory:- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King%27s_shilling

slobotron• 5 years ago

From Wikipedia you linked:

There are recurring tales of sailors being pressed after a shilling was slipped into their drink, leading to glass-bottomed tankards. However, this is likely to be a myth, for the Navy could press by force, rendering deception unnecessary.

gerikson3• 5 years ago

Sailors pressed off US ships were not US citizens, but British citizens "who had known the sea" (fishermen, merchant seamen, whalers etc.) who understandably preferred working for better pay for US skippers than risking life and limb in the Royal Navy.

adolph• 5 years ago

That is an interesting claim. Was there a US citizenship at the time, or were people from one state or another?

billfruit• 5 years ago

Americans used to do the same for Merchant Marine, it was euphemistically called 'Shanghai-ing'.

sandworm1012• 5 years ago

Remember too that the navy only really pressed seamen. They were not kidnapping landmen onto ships. They were after skilled people. A person who had completed a voyage or two was a valuable asset, as opposed to a farmer who would be far more of a liability onboard a navy ship.

And for all the horrors described about life in the royal navy, it was often far better than life in the country. You got food. You were a member of a crew with rights and privileges. A laborer in farm country, or in a mine, was much worse off.

elmomle• 5 years ago

Beware any statement that suggests something like "this form of forced labor wasn't so bad". If it was decent work then people would do it without being kidnapped. Involuntary enslavement, whether permanent or temporary, is a terrible thing.

crowf• 5 years ago

I've always wondered how you can have a large portion of you military essentially be slaves. I would imagine that it would be very possible for them to rebel during a critical battle and the join the enemy.

vmilner• 5 years ago

I remember feeling embarrassed when visiting the US in my 30s as a Brit and realising I'd never heard of the 1812 war, even though I thought I was fairly well-read in US history.

offtop52• 5 years ago

Don't feel bad, Americans are notorious for forgetting our history as fast as possible.

Aside from jingoistic comic book like tales, we as a people rarely talk about the past.

marshmallow_122• 5 years ago

The only significant thing i know about it was that the White House got burned down.

dfee• 5 years ago

And yet here you are, attempting to make a point on an article which is neither jingoistic nor forgetful.

I’m not sure where you hang out, but for me, with a six year old child, I’m enjoying going through it all again.

In fact, having grown up in Tulsa, and seeing the race riots come to light last year, or living in the Bay Area and hiking out at Sir Francis Drake’s landing spot a week ago, or our family’s attempt to visit Maine for their 200 year anniversary last year...

Yeah, I don’t think “we” are notorious for this. And having studied in London, getting the chance to explore 10 other European countries, one of which I later worked out of, I don’t think they’re much different.

If you’d like to spend more time exposing yourself to our rich history, I’d actually suggest downloading the PBS app, visiting museums, or exploring the country side - where there are the Missions along El Camino Real in CA. Ghost towns in the middle of the country from old industries, and people who call themselves “coon-asses” (Cajuns in Louisiana) who from my experience have deep loyalty to their past.

arethuza3• 5 years ago

To be fair the UK was involved in rather a lot of wars in the 19th century:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_the_Uni...

Zenst5• 5 years ago

Yeah, much that you miss out in history - I wasn't aware of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_expedition_to_Tibet

"The British expedition to Tibet, also known as the British invasion of Tibet"

simonh• 5 years ago

Which brings us to Al Murrays discourse on the topic which is actually impressively well researched, if he does stretch things a bit for comic effect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x2ovlPr2IE

jariel• 5 years ago

It was 1812-1814, a series of skirmishes, and from the UK perspective it was all just a side-show to Napoleon. The 'end' of the 'War of 1812' was not in the US it was at Waterloo.

ocschwar• 5 years ago

The war was such an embarrassment most Americans don't know much about it either. For a real laugh read about the Siege of Detroit.

bpodgursky• 5 years ago

The Battle of New Orleans was the big highlight.

(doesn't matter if it happened after the war "ended". minor technicality.)

nickik2• 5 years ago

It is a war that nobody except some Mid-Westerns wanted. Britain had already sent a group of diplomats to make offers to resolve the tension. The US declared the war before they got there.

The Brits fought the war with the units they didn't need for the much more important war with Napoleon.

That American don't remember their capital being taken and their most important government building burnt down by another nation is kind of funny however. And that's why nobody remember it, no movies about it.

Then the US spent the next 50 years fortifying their East coast to prevent it happening again those forts are where the Civil war eventually started.

ghc2• 5 years ago

Pretty much every child in the US learns about the war of 1812 and the burning of the white house. Many 8th grade history textbooks even perpetuate the myth that it's painted white to cover the damage from the burning. But it's no surprise that 14 year olds might not remember what they are taught in Early American History into adulthood.

geuis• 5 years ago

That American don't remember their capital being taken and their most important government building burnt down by another nation is kind of funny however. And that's why nobody remember it, no movies about it.

Going to beg to differ. We learned about this in elementary and then in more detail in middle and high school. Don’t know why so many commenters seem to think the 1812 war isn’t taught in US schools.

Conversely what I find odd is that the American revolution doesn’t seem to be taught in British schools at any length. I’ve talked to multiple British friends who have almost know knowledge of it and say it’s not taught. I get that the UK has a long history, but losing your biggest set of colonies in a revolution that go on to become the most powerful country in the world seems like a big deal. Something worth spending at least a little time on in public education.

cafard• 5 years ago

I imagine that Haitians and Nicaraguans remember the US interventions there a lot better than we do in the US. Nations have only so much attention to allocate.

ficklepickle2• 5 years ago

It's OK, Americans don't realize they lost that one to Canada. We torched the white house!

1-0 for the good guys! Ca-na-da! Ca-na-da!

I'll show myself out.

klyrs• 5 years ago

The nations that lost the war of 1812 were neither US nor Canada. Go ahead, celebrate your victory over the first nations.

bawolff3• 5 years ago

There's a band called the arrogant worms that has a song that's basically this.

zokula2• 5 years ago

The greatest myths that Canadians seemed to comfort themselves with is they had any part in the War of 1812.

tengbretson• 5 years ago

I don't think your country had asked politely for permission to exist yet.

52-6F-62• 5 years ago

As a Canadian it's one of the pieces of history that is embedded in my mind. I grew up in a town that was burned down by American troops in the war, and pretty mercilessly at that.

There's even a Wikipedia article about it... which is rare because not much has happened down there except for one of my heroes Rick Danko.

(at the time of the raid, my family's respective sides were still to be in Ayrshire and Ulster for another hundred-and-fifty years or so—no historical connection to the event, or even the war excepting they probably had as much disdain for the British as Americans might have. Go figure.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Port_Dover

ghaff4• 5 years ago

The War of 1812 was a pretty minor conflict by British standards of the time. And it ended up as something of a stalemate.

It's not really talked about much in the US either because it was ultimately much less significant than either the Revolutionary War or the Civil War--and, to the degree there was a winner at all, it wasn't the US.

truculent2• 5 years ago

A minor conflict, perhaps. But the resulting treaty has lasted an exceptionally long time and has had a huge influence on the modern geopolitical order.

InitialLastName• 5 years ago

The only reason it gets any common play at all in the US is that a popular poem got written about it.

dhosek2• 5 years ago

It did give us the Star Spangled Banner.

bawolff3• 5 years ago

It does get talked about in canada a fair bit (not excessively or anything, but definitely mentioned in history class)

davidw3• 5 years ago

I highly recommend the book "Six Frigates" by Ian Toll that talks about this time period. It's a highly readable and interesting story of the US' at the time tiny navy, that actually did very well for itself in the war of 1812 against the dominant naval power of the day. His other books are well-written and informative as well.

Shivetya• 5 years ago

not to take away from the book or the people who served in the Navy at the time but one of the largest strategic benefits the United States has/had are oceans on both sides separating it from hostile powers.

this advantage of course dropped away in the age of missiles and jets but it still has many benefits to this day.

HDMI_Cable• 5 years ago

I’m not sure the pacific mattered all that much during the war of 1812. Even with jets and missiles, the two oceans still prevent anyone from landing troops on American shores.

throwanem4• 5 years ago

Not that you're exactly wrong, but I would argue that advantage meant more, not less, as time went on. In both World Wars it granted the US mainland the insuperable strategic advantage of being effectively impossible to attack in any meaningful way - not so much, though, in the days when the Royal Navy still bestrode the world.

davidw3• 5 years ago

Trade was pretty important to the US, and the British instituted a naval blockade:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812#Blockade

gerikson3• 5 years ago

For an entertaining fictional account (from the British side) I can recommend Patrick O'Brian's The Fortune of War (and the subsequent The Surgeon's Mate, although only the first part deals with the war of 1812).

jaegerpicker2• 5 years ago

I'd recommend the whole series as it's really excellent!

throwanem4• 5 years ago

I appreciate the recommendation!

I'd add another recommendation, too, for anyone interested in that period of naval history - specifically, when it becomes reasonable to do so again, I'd recommend visiting both Constitution in Boston, and Constellation here in Baltimore. Constitution is the last surviving of the "six original frigates" referenced in Toll's title, and the oldest ship in the world still in commission; one of Constitution's sisters was the original Constellation, and her second-generation namesake here in Baltimore represents the final evolution of the design to which Constitution and her sisters were built.

Naval warfare in the Age of Sail is a minor interest of mine, enough so that I've read a good deal about it and even written a little. But nothing else I've found has given me the same sense of what those ships really were than walking their decks and being in their spaces has done.

Granted, even that isn't "real", in that visiting a museum can't possibly give a true sense of what it's like to serve or even go to sea aboard one of these ships in her time of greatness. But, short of signing aboard as a mate with one of the museums whose ships do still sail, I think visiting these ships is about as close as anyone can expect to come - and, either way, it's very much worth doing in its own right, for anyone who shares the interest.

jaegerpicker2• 5 years ago

I'd also recommend Old Fort Niagra and the US Niagra on Lake Erie/Ontario. Also read about Oliver Hazard Perry and the Battle of Lake Erie. I believe it's still the largest recorded fresh water naval battle in history and quite a great story. Also if you are visiting the Constitution in Boston I'd highly recommend the Boston Tea Party Museum and Ships. It's a slightly earlier period obviously but it was a fantastic experience IMO and walking the working ships there was great.

Like you the Age of sail and especially the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812 are interests of mine. My interest started after reading the Aubrey/Maturin series which I can't possibly recommend highly enough. I agree with you walking the decks or walls of the forts is irreplaceable if you are in to the history.

5555624• 5 years ago

But, short of signing aboard as a mate with one of the museums whose ships do still sail, I think visiting these ships is about as close as anyone can expect to come - and, either way, it's very much worth doing in its own right, for anyone who shares the interest.

Even then, on a museum ship, you're probably not going to be woken up, in the middle of the night, in the middle of the Atlantic, to furl sails due to a storm. (Summer 1981, on the USCGC Eagle.)

davidw3• 5 years ago

I can confirm. Got to see the Constitution after reading that book and it made it all the more fascinating.

chasil• 5 years ago

Interesting that what has not been mentioned in this thread today is the Hartford Convention.

The constitutional amendments proposed there involved (from the wiki):

- Prohibiting any trade embargo lasting over 60 days;

- Requiring a two-thirds Congressional majority for declaration of offensive war, admission of a new state, or interdiction of foreign commerce;

- Removing the three-fifths representation advantage of the South;

- Limiting future presidents to one term;

- Requiring each president to be from a different state than his predecessor. (This provision was aimed directly at the dominance of Virginia in the presidency since 1800).

It would be an interesting country had this come to pass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartford_Convention

gbourne• 5 years ago

Great recommendation - just picked up the audio version.

Ancapistani• 5 years ago

In that vein, I'd recommend "Give Me a Fast Ship" by Tim McGrath, which outlines the formation of the US Navy during the American Revolution - it's basically the story of how we came to the position we were in when 1812 rolled around.

dghf• 5 years ago

Anti-war sentiment in Boston forms part of the background to Patrick O'Brian's The Fortune of War (one of the series of novels featuring Captain Jack Aubrey and Dr Stephen Maturin).

sillyquiet• 5 years ago

After reading some of the sources he used to form that impression, it's amazing how closely the politics of that day resemble more modern invective and rhetoric, especially around the Iraq war. Substitute 'Bush' for 'Madison' and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

Apocryphon• 5 years ago

The online alternate history epic Decades of Darkness presumes what if they did:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/DecadesOfD...

jhallenworld• 5 years ago

A minor point: the Nimrod restaurant is no more.

https://www.capenews.net/falmouth/news/falmouth-planners-app...

New England Almost Seceded over the War of 1812 (2012)

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