Creator of "Dirty Jobs" Mike Rowe testifies to Congress

http://dsc.discovery.com/fansites/dirtyjobs/mike-rowe-senate-testimony.html

by goldins • 15 years ago

667 207 15 years ago

dsc.discovery.com

mahrain• 15 years ago

I think he could run for president!

He's far too reasonable to make a presidential candidate. You have to be somewhat extreme to attract dollars because too few middle-ground people give too few dollars (and there is no media drama involved).

burgerbrain• 15 years ago

Perhaps he couldn't.. but he should. Of course, I can think of a good deal of people like that.

webXL3• 15 years ago

Why do you need a lot of money? To get your message out there, right? Well, this guy has been getting his message out for a while and has good name recognition, so he doesn't need as much money as someone on the fringe.

I'd give him money over your typical "say anything to get elected" (d-bag) candidate.

sp332• 15 years ago

The video is on YouTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h_pp8CHEQ0 I think it's a little more meaningful for this kind of content, and the jokes are funnier :)

goldins4• 15 years ago

Thanks for the link!

josefresco• 15 years ago

I thought Mike was just some "TV guy" they hired to do that show. This puts a whole new perspective on things. Good for Mike, hopefully someone will listen and act.

jtreminio• 15 years ago

Mike Rowe has consistently shown that he's more than just a cable TV show's talking head. In almost every single speech I hear him give, he's eloquently stated our need for more skilled labor or given credit to the people who do these dirty jobs all day.

He made an extremely interesting video for Reddit's AMA. Sat down and spoke for, I believe, ~20 minutes, answering every question in great detail.

there• 15 years ago

the first of those videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxudGb4VYL0

bonzoesc• 15 years ago

I think he's in it for the joy of it, just like how Alton Brown made "Good Eats." He's also the narrator for Ford truck commercials.

briancurtin• 15 years ago

> He's also the narrator for Ford truck commercials.

Deadliest Catch as well.

showerst• 15 years ago

Then you need to see his ted talk: http://www.ted.com/talks/mike_rowe_celebrates_dirty_jobs.htm...

Mike has some really deep insights into American culture and work, every time he's interviewed or speaks it's a treat.

goldins4• 15 years ago

Wow. Thanks for the link.

srgseg• 15 years ago

Fun fact: Mike Rowe wasn't rich growing up, but because of the way the freeway next to his house cut off access to a large area of land, he had free roam.

His family kept a horse, which he used to ride to school on.

marcinw• 15 years ago

Mike Rowe is also an Eagle Scout if that matters anymore to you.

BigZaphod• 15 years ago

Believe it or not, in addition to the other tidbits people have posted here, Mike was also a professional opera singer in a former life! He's one of the most interesting and real guys on TV, IMO.

yellowbkpk• 15 years ago

One of Mike Rowe's first TV gigs was a host on the QVC network. Here are some videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc1Y64N4O7g&playnext=1...

kongqiu• 15 years ago

Mike Rowe did a really interesting podcast interview with Adam Carolla late last year: http://www.adamcarolla.com/ACPBlog/2010/10/19/mike-rowe/

Worth checking out.

cuppster• 15 years ago

I loved that podcast... also, you can find his QVC work on youtube. Gold.

baggachipz• 15 years ago

My brother-in-law met him and said he was one of the coolest, most down-to-earth people he's ever had the privilege of speaking to.

quanticle• 15 years ago

>In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative." Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as "vocational consolation prizes," best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of "shovel ready" jobs for a society that doesn't encourage people to pick up a shovel.

The reason for that is because the huge manufacturing automation and outsourcing wave that swept the nation in the 70s, 80s and 90s destroyed the association between skilled labor and a "good job". Its hard to make a living building things when a robot or a Chinese peasant can build the same thing for a tenth of the cost. Its hard to make a living fixing things when its cheaper to order a replacement.

LargeWu• 15 years ago

What you are referring to is mostly unskilled labor. Mr. Rowe was specifically talking about work that cannot be outsourced - welders, plumbers, electricians, carpenters.

dagw3• 15 years ago

While many of those jobs cannot be outsourced in the sense that you cannot send them overseas, they can be outsourced in the sense that you can ship in cheap labour from abroad, have them do a job for a fraction of what you'd have to pay a local, and then ship them back.

protomyth4• 15 years ago

You hit on part the problem. People see "vocational" and think "factory". Factory jobs can be outsourced, but you cannot outsource construction work. We need more skilled labor not factory workers.

ams61102• 15 years ago

Cannot be outsourced... yet. Do you really think it will be very long before small welding robots scale and weld steel on new high-rise construction? A robot that can scale an I-beam doesn't seem too farfetched... and no worker's comp, no danger of people falling off the building, no overtime wages...

Same with plumbing and wiring. I would bet that within a few decades we will see massive use of robots in construction.

Now, for ad-hoc repairs you may still need a skilled human being, but for new assemblies I think the robots are going to take over there sooner or later as well.

bilbo0s• 15 years ago

We're not short of electricians, we're short of people who can repair televisions.

We're not short of carpenters, we're short of people who repair furniture.

We're not short of plumbers, we're short of people who repair washing machines.

Once specificity is injected into the conversation, the issues surrounding these shortages become more clear. Are you going to pay to repair a computer if the newest wiz-bang HP is only $400 at Best Buy or WalMart. Some might. After all, they may only have $200. Majority will probably just buy a new one. But there is currently a lack of labor to address the market of people who wish they could have the computer their aunt gave them 4 years ago refurbished.

It's also more clear why the shortage exists. People with the proclivity will gravitate towards the 'safer' route, being an electrician. We only notice a lot of laid off electricians because construction is in a downturn. But, and here I'm only speculating, I think most electricians or utility company linemen for instance, would not count refurbishing old pc equipment for minorities in ghettos as a viable replacement for the work they currently do. At least not financially.

Similarly for carpentry. There is a market outside construction for woodworking. Does it pay as well? Is it large enough to absorb all of the carpenters idled due to the construction downturn? Judging by the unemployment numbers for construction workers, I would bet the answer to at least one of those questions is 'no'.

The reasons for our imbalances are more fundamental. In the US, things are less expensive to buy than they are to build for instance. Presently, encouraging people to go to Vocational Schools sets the conditions for the same sort of disappointment as encouraging them to go to College does. Until the more fundamental equilibrium are established, we will always be short of people willing to do low paid work. And there will be an over supply of people to do the high paid work. Even on the vocational level.

FAR more vocational people in car repair for instance, than computer repair or woodworking. Consequently, it is tough to land a job in car repair and easy to be fired. Lots of people out there learning to do it. Meanwhile, no one wants to repair furniture or PCs because there is no money in it.

forgottenpaswrd• 15 years ago

"work that cannot be outsourced welders, plumbers, electricians, carpenters."

The company I work in in Spain, big European hi tech multinational is planning to replace 92% of all welders with laser automatic machines.

Laser machines work 24/7, no unions, much less safety cost, better precisions, faster, and way cheaper.

Laser or plasma has been there for a long time, the cost is the thing that goes down and down.

Plumbers-> Now pipes are pre fabricated. Electrician-> Very easy to do it yourself. Carpenters->IKEA

No, people do not need people to fix the TV. They could go to the shop and buy a new one by 600$(in the near future is going to be 300$), people could buy a 30$ pendrive to see it on their computer.

hugs• 15 years ago

All I want to do is live in a future where robots do all the work, and I get to build and program the robots... But with that said, it's going to be a long time before robots can do all the things Mike's grandfather could do. (Installing electrical lines, replacing sewer lines, replacing roofs, etc.) Sure, manufacturing automation killed a lot of jobs, but there plenty of skilled labor jobs that robots can't do today.

montagg2• 15 years ago

That's true, but he's also talking about the kind of skilled labor that robots don't, and probably won't, do for a very long time: handy man, around-the-house kind of work.

I just had a guy come over today and fix my sink. I was sitting down editing in another room the whole time. It brought home that difference between "higher education" and "vocation" pretty strongly.

I always try to ask what to do so he doesn't have to come over in the future, but this one was particularly gross. But, really, I should have learned how to deal with gross clogged sinks in high school, so I wouldn't be squeamish about it now. It's our responsibility to learn this stuff, because this stuff, and the people who work on it, is really makes society tick. (Google a great Long Now talk, "World Without Us," to see how the only people keeping nature from retaking everything are maintenance guys.)

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

You don't know how to unclog a sink?

Seriously?

Where have all the hackers gone?

I code during the day, fix my jeep when it breaks, fix my lawnmower, remodeled my basement, take apart kids toys, etc, etc.

You should give it a try. Don't be afraid to make mistakes (you will) and you can always call in a guy to fix it if your really break something. Trying is learning. And, you'll have the satisfaction of knowing how things work in your home.

mrcharles• 15 years ago

Canada has had a "Trades" ad campaign going for some years now, and as a result, a lot of trades jobs can be hard to find. I have a friend who recently decided to get in to trades as a welder, after a string of poor life decisions left him without a serious education or career.

The sad part is that he's having a bitch of a time finding a job up here... which I assume is due to revitalization of trades from the government ad campaign.

Definitely something to support. And hey, maybe my friend can go work in the US.

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

Try North Dakota (close to Canada) and desperately in need of skilled labor b/c of the oil boom.

protomyth4• 15 years ago

To add to pragmatic's point, they are hiring huge numbers of people to the point the oil companies are buying out hotels.

juiceandjuice2• 15 years ago

Growing up in a small oil town, it's a scary business to be in. Things are boom and bust, and unless you are essential you can get dropped right off. Everything in the town was so dependent on oil, and it was booming in the late 80s and started going bust when the price of oil dropped in the early 90s, then back up and back down again around 97, then back up.

latch• 15 years ago

Put farmers in the same category.

Not sure what, but I sniff an opportunity for tech to get involved here.

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

Farming is high tech. Tractors drive themselves (what google is only now doing with cars).

The tractor, the planter, everything is gps and sensor based. You can tell how much seed is coming out at each planter point (can't remember the term for this). Each one needs to be calibrated. Also they shut off if you cross over a planted area so you don't waste seed, fertilizer, etc.

Farmers aren't waiting for you to come along and "get tech involved". They've (the smart succesful ones) always have the latest tech. From satelite internet (way back when) to spreadsheets to highly sophisticated computerized machines.

Inputs (fuel, seed, fertilizer) are ridiculously expensive (b/c our dollar is worth less and less and the fed prints money like toilet paper) and at least fuel and fertilizer have many foreign components. So automation and gps, etc can be really cost savers (also better for the environment, incidentally)

dagw3• 15 years ago

Yup, a friend of mine works for a company that develops software used by farmers (among other things). He says that all the farmers he meets are surprisingly tech savvy and always on top of the latest computer and tech trends.

krschultz2• 15 years ago

I worked at a startup creating a device that would be useful for a lot of industries, but before the high-tech companies in silicon valley bought in, before the consulting companies in NYC were convinced, farmers tried it out and used it.

It surprised me that you could convince farmers to try absolute bleeding edge technology, but they would. And they would at a faster rate than cell phone companies, consulting companies, manufacturing firms, etc.

spitfire2• 15 years ago

Any links to farm tech/forums where you can find out about this stuff? I have zero interest in webapps/dotcoms, but an incredible interest in robotics/physical things.

montagg2• 15 years ago

He should've pulled out the "sheep's balls on my chin" story from his TED talk. That would've been way more convincing. ;-)

edw519• 15 years ago

I could have written the bit about my grandfather.

He passed away 36 years ago this week and I was already thinking about him quite a bit.

He was the most amazing person I ever met. He came to the U.S. alone when he was 11 years old and lived with strangers until he met my grandmother at a picnic. They were married 3 weeks later. He spoke 5 languages fluently, played 6 musical instruments, never went to school a single day in his life, and he could fix anything.

Like OP, one of my most favorite days of my childhood was when I was 12 and my grandfather took me to work with him. I remember helping him carry his tools down the back steps and load them into the trunk of his Ford Galaxie 500. He taught me my all time favorite cuss word when he said, "Move all that shitcrap out of the way."

Just the other day, I drove right past that spot, stopped, and sat for a while, remembering the good old days. Today, just like OP, I just call someone to get something fixed. I've almost forgotten the joy of getting things done with my hands with the gentle guidance of a master.

Thanks for the memories, Mike Rowe and goldins.

AlexMuir3• 15 years ago

These making skills are going to come back over the next few years - they aren't 'taught', they're learnt. And people are having to learn them RIGHT NOW, because they can't afford to call someone out to change their fuse / fix their washer. If you aren't working, you've got time to fiddle around for a while and get something fixed. Do it a few times and you start to get good at it and more confident. I'm really hopeful that it will be a positive outcome from the recession.

goldins4• 15 years ago

That's a good point, but I'm not sure to what extent it's true; Where did Mike Rowe's grandfather learn to be a jack-of-all-trades? Most likely from his father or grandfather. If parents today choose to be "less interested in how things got made, and more interested in how things got bought" then chances are so will their kin.

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

Yes, important point - skills are learned and you need to practice them.

I somewhat look forward to fixing stuff. I just fixed our furnace. Even if I need to buy a specialty tool, I'm usually better of getting the tool and learning how to do something myself.

I have a joke I like to tell: The first guy from the [HVAC|Electrician|Plumber] just comes out to get the check. Then next 1 or 2 might actually fix it.

Because I've had so many right out of votec kids come out, don't know what they're doing and don't fix the problem. I'm relieved when I answer the door and an older guy is there.

They really need to apprentice the young guys with older guys more than they do.

(I have some experience here, my brother is a master electrician in 2 states).

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

> Where did Mike Rowe's grandfather learn to be a jack-of-all-trades?

Some place I did. I picked it up. I kept trying. I read books, I did it. I was also raised on a farm and took wood shop and engine shop, drafting and auto-cad (and physics, chemistry, etc).

Maybe some people just have a knack for this stuff?

(Can't reply directly to this comment)

ujeezy• 15 years ago

It took me three tries to fix the wax gasket under my toilet (symptom of a worn-out wax gasket: water leaks out from the bottom of the toilet whenever you flush), but I did it out of curiosity, wanting to be more like my dad who fixed everything in our house, and because I didn't want to be the guy who called the landlord to fix every little thing... I think more than anything, the feeling of control over my surroundings is what pushes me to do as much handywork as I can.

localtalent2• 15 years ago

Learning a lot of these skills is easier than ever.

I wasn't raised doing a lot of around-the-house stuff, but in the past five years I've learned to do everything from recaulking a tub and rewiring lamps to fixing bicycles and repairing vintage rangefinder cameras.

I buy tools on craigslist and learn the steps online. Sometimes there's an unintended consequence to deal with (water spraying out of the sink, burned chicken, stripped set screws) that forums, skillshares, and hackerspaces are great at helping with.

None of this makes for a vocation, and I'm not advocating that people learn welding from eHow. But there's a lot to be learned from 'do it yourself' rather than 'do it for me'.

eyeareque• 15 years ago

Over ten years ago (when I was in high school) the school I went to ended the metal shop class that I took. We were told that it was ended because of a lack of funding to support the class. Soon after they closed the class the school sold off the metal lathes and CNC machines. It was pretty sad.

I agree that outsourcing and manufacturing automation has had an effect on the size of our skilled labor workforce. But let us not forget that our underfunded schools are another part of the problem.

CWuestefeld5• 15 years ago

our underfunded schools

Sigh. At what level of funding will you finally consider it adequate?

mike_organon2• 15 years ago

My first thought on reading Rowe's speech was this might be a symptom of public education itself. Do-gooders using other people's money to push their agenda (higher education is the American dream) on other people. It means the people making decisions are disconnected from the outcome and reality. The result is a distortion of of the market, and also the distortion of culture that not getting higher education is disrespected (as Rowe says). Unfortunately, Rowe wants to use the government to push his agenda.

AlexMuir3• 15 years ago

One of my most striking memories is groups of men sitting on kerbs in Cairo with a couple of battered stone chisels and a hammer. They just sat there every day with their tools, waiting for someone to give them work chipping concrete BY HAND for a day.

They were skilled guys (at bashing concrete and holding a hammer all day), and willing to work hard. But in a fucked economy they couldn't contribute anything except cheap labour. Non-manufacturing trades don't support an economy. It's nice to think about an army of new handimen rebuilding America, but the reality is that an army of Amazon drones is what will be coming.

pstack• 15 years ago

It's interesting that our solution to "nobody wants to do physical labor" is to outsource it to other countries and our solution to "nobody wants to do professional knowledge work . . . for cheap" is to outsource it to other countries and supplement with H1Bs as much as possible. What I find odd is the difference in response to each.

If you're a professional that works with knowledge, you're told "hey, that's the world market, baby -- if you can't compete on a fifth of your salary, then to hell with you".

If you're a professional that works in labor/manual work, we involve unions and national programs to re-invigorate interest in the field of welding or laying pipes or wiring homes and treat it like news that the national flag has just been replaced.

I find both a concern, yet am bothered by the seeming double-standard.

As a personal anecdote: My grandfather was a pacifist who none-the-less served his country when called during WWII. He was an engineer who was responsible for a lot of stuff in Anchorage during the time. (He had an amazing panoramic photo set he took of Valdeze back when it was whole). He was a pianist. He was a chemist. He touch mathematics in college. He threw discus in college track and field. His home was filled with books on chemistry, math, history, physics, geography. I grew up surrounded by stacks of OMNI, National Geographic, Discovery, Popular Science, Popular Mechanics and plenty of other great reads. And for a living, he chose to build houses. He became a general contractor who didn't really contract out that much work. He did almost everything himself, except pour foundations and wire the homes. He built beautiful homes that often took two to four years and cost a few million dollars (and some people hired him more than once to build their homes over the decades as their tastes evolved). He just loved building stuff and working outside and he did it his entire life. I was also fortunate to spend many years of my childhood going onto his job-site with him day after day and goofing around, helping, watching. There's a lot to be said for loving your job and doing it excellently.

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

It's about status. Americans want to be VP's, lawyers, doctors, etc.

And parents want their kids to be these things. What parent wants to see their kid working 12 hours a day for peanuts and low prestige.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

mgkimsal2• 15 years ago

We had a plumber come out to the house for a repair - it was $170 callout, and $15 for a part. He was here about 20 minutes (yes, there was drive time too, but they drive to multiple places). I wouldn't exactly call that 'peanuts'.

matwood• 15 years ago

Actually skilled blue collar type workers make a lot of money. If they also have business/management skills they can make tons of money. I have a friend who was in CS in undergrad until he realized that he can't sit inside all day. So, he dropped out of college and learned concrete (did go back and get a civil engineering degree). He's now next in line to own the concrete business he's a part of when the current own retires. Sometimes he works 12 hour days and he usually comes home dirty, but he and his family also have more money than they know what to do with.

BTW, he's also that kind of person who can fix/build anything as mentioned in the original article.

flat_pointer• 15 years ago

"If you're a professional that works in labor/manual work, we involve unions..."

We involve unions? Unions were formed by the workers in various professions. 'We' didn't do that - people in those professions did. If there aren't unions in knowledge worker fields it's because knowledge workers aren't forming unions. Unions to my knowledge don't wait for some outside authority to allow them to exist - if they had done that they'd have never formed.

So to the extent we have a double standard because some professions have unions that'll fight for them and some don't, that's on the people in those left-out professions to do something.

asmithmd12• 15 years ago

I don't think the people in skilled trades really want congress to fix the skill gap problem. Just about every state sets incredibly high bars to be licensed. To be a licensed plumber in Massachusetts you have to pass a test (with only 70% correct!) and then work for 4 years before you can apply for a license. Plumbers around Boston get $100/hr and are hard to find. If Congress wants to allow more people to do skilled work they could mandate lower requirements. Kansas and Pennsylvania, for example, do not require plumbing licenses and I can personally vouch that toilets in those states do in fact work.

ShabbyDoo3• 15 years ago

A few years ago, we had some remodeling work done on our house. A union plumber came in on a Saturday to do the plumbing portion for cash. He told me that his most recent union-sponsored continuing education class was a call-to-action on the shortage of young plumbers. The union was worried that it could not find enough young people interested in the trade! I had always regarded the unions as exclusionary, but they're now worried about their own survival due to attrition (well, at least the Cleveland-area plumbers union).

This same guy noted that the real concern wasn't residential plumbing. This work is fairly low-skilled. The issue is that large commercial buildings require much skill and experience. Perhaps a solution would be to stratify the definition of "plumber" to allow those with a lower-level license to do easy work. Those with the upper-level licenses could do the more complicated stuff.

asmithmd12• 15 years ago

The union is worried about the flux on new plumbers but your individual plumber would be happy to be the last plumber alive in Cleveland as he could name whatever rate he wanted.

I think you are exactly right about the need for two tiers in the trades. The wiring in a house is vastly different from even the local supermarket that has three phase power to the lights controlled by contactors.

Maybe by adding a category of "professional" plumbers and electricians you could solve the prestige problem. Currently, if someone says they are a plumber you don't know if they clean out drains or maintain a hospital's systems.

scottkrager• 15 years ago

Enterprise plumbers?

jcampbell1• 15 years ago

> Perhaps a solution would be to stratify the definition of "plumber"

It already has been. The really skilled people are called pipefitters and hate being called plumbers. Most industrial work is done by pipefitters, and plumbers do residential/commercial work.

russell• 15 years ago

Ah the merits of off-the-books weekend work. I had a badly rutted moderately long driveway with drainage problems. One Saturday a Caltrans operator brought his grader over and for $1200, including a couple of truck loads of crushed rock, I got a driveway worthy of a public road.

JWLong• 15 years ago

I was planning to learn to design septic systems until I learned that you had to apprentice for four years (and they wouldn't acknowledge the ten years I'd been working for my dad off and on) or possess a Bachelor's degree (or have a plumber's license)... There's only a handful of these guys left in the state of Arkansas... most of them in their fifties and about to retire...

sanj• 15 years ago

One of my luckier breaks was going to a highschool specializing in voc-ed. "Vocational Education" was the euphemism used to describe skills that you didn't learn in white collar jobs or in college/university.

While there I got to take classes in drafting, machining, and electronics (real electronics -- we etched our own boards!). I regret that I didn't spend any time in the auto shop. The students that excelled there did routine maintenance on all of the teachers' cars!

Years later I was an intern at Orbital Sciences, building a satellite (http://oceancolor.gsfc.nasa.gov/SeaWiFS/SEASTAR/SPACECRAFT.h...).

One day I was chatting with my mentor/boss about building a testing harness. A physical one with dangly bits and wires. I don't remember the details of the conversation, but I remember a compliment he gave me -- to this day, one of my most cherished:

"I know you'll do fine: you've burnt yourself on soldering irons."

At least among those rocket scientists, the ability to actually build stuff is held in high regard.

krschultz2• 15 years ago

I took drafting classes in high school voc-ed and learned far more than in my college mechanical engineering drafting class. That has served me quite well as an engineer. Equally useful were the metals class in middle school (where we learned to weld at age 13! you bet your ass they don't do that anymore, too "dangerous") and stagecraft in high school. It's too bad those kind of 'blue collar' classes are getting phased out, becuase they drove me into engineering far more than science or math ever did.

andrewvc• 15 years ago

It's not just the technical side of trade classes, it's breaking out of the abstractness of most education that's also valuable.

I went to a high school with a remarkably well funded theater and stagecraft department thanks to a very generous alum. We worked under professional supervision (pro sound, lights, etc.) on professional equipment (250k sound system). I was in charge of sound for most of my years there.

That class taught me all about responsibility and professionalism. You have to be on the ball and super-prepared for a live show to work. When crises happen in the middle, you have to keep calm, make other people feel secure, and handle them professionally, and quickly.

That skill's come in handy post-high school. When I was starting out in software, in charge of a website that made a bunch of cash that needed to run 24/7, the nerves I learned back in school helped me stay calm and in control.

jff• 15 years ago

They still do welding in high schools.

Drafting was incredibly fun, mostly because we got to sit around BSing while still turning out these oddly attractive little drawings. My favorite part was always drawing the dimension lines/arrows.

eropple• 15 years ago

Had a similar experience--I went to a normal-ish high school, but my dad made sure I learned (at some points forcibly) how yo not make a complete idiot of myself around electronics, cars, carpentry, plumbing, etc.

Knew there was a reason I liked you, sanj. :p

jinushaun• 15 years ago

I agree that there is a perception problem in this country involving skilled non-degree jobs. On one hand we're complaining that immigrants are taking all of our "jerbs", but on the other hand, we say we're too good for a job that doesn't require a bachelors degree.

We have to break this perception. I don't know what the solution is, but I do know in Germany students can decide whether to take a university route (high school) or take a skilled trade route (vocational high school).

Of course, that system has its own problems, because students are separated by social class by the end of 4th grade, which is incredibly early to tell a young person that they can or can't get a university education.

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

This is about money and status.

College is higher status than vocational school.

A professional job is higher status that a trade.

The money is not fantastic right out of school. You have to apprentice and keep working your way up and taking tests, etc.

The job is dirty, you will hurt your back, etc, eventually (more when rather than if).

So, if I'm a kid, making a decision about whether to go college or votech, I'm logically going to choose college if I can (higher status, lower chance of injury, probably more money).

When thinking about status, imagine a daughter telling her mom about her new fiance. Compare plumber to lawyer. Brick mason to dentist. Programmer to Marketing VP (yes programming is low status, that's why it's called software engineering now, see Domestic Engineering or Sanitation Engineer).

If you want to earn a lot in a trade you _must_ start you own business. Depending on the trade you need a large amount of capital. So the _best_ you can do is have your name on the truck. You can make a lot of money.

I have a cousin with a succesful electrcial business, of course now he's a real estate developer and drives a lexus (again, see status above). My brother has just gone into business and so I hear a lot of his woes.

I can afford a Lexus and my back doesn't hurt and I'm not dirty. So...I like Mike but this seems to be a case of "I don't want to do that job, but someone has to."

We'll probably see something like the "Polish Plumber" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Plumber. A lot of immigrants are going into the trades (see drywall and landscaping).

So, as immigrants before them (like my ancestors, and as others have mentioned) they go into the trades b/c it's the highest paying work they can get.

pragmatic10• 15 years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Millionaire_Next_Door

The Millionaire Next Store is a good book about status vs wealth.

raganwald• 15 years ago

One week in Toronto, there was a massive snow storm. I lived in the suburb of Oakville, and when I got to the commuter train station in the morning, I discovered that the service had been canceled. They were running replacement buses, but the buses couldn't carry that many people. It was chaos.

I spotted someone I knew from my Financial Modelling days, a LBO entrepreneur I will call "T." T was into buying and selling companies. Unlike the typical cost-cutting LBO types, T was a marketing specialist who thrived on identifying brands where company management were operations focused and had dropped the ball on marketing.

T was also a deadhead who once told me that money really does change your life: He and his wife could fly to Grateful Dead concerts instead of driving the VW bus of their college years.

T could afford a limo and driver, but his wife drops him at the train station every morning, because they only own one car. Even in a snow emergency, T was not fighting for a cab, he was trying to get on a bus. We linked arms and charged, and wound up in adjacent seats.

He was pleased to see I had made it up to home ownership, and that I was reading a book about personal finance, "The Richest Man in Babylon." He told me about a book he said was the best book ever written about money, "The Millionaire Next Door."

When we got to Toronto, I decided work could wait. I waded through the snow drifts to a book store and bought it on the spot.

tokenadult2• 15 years ago

I read through the other comments before commenting here. There is an interesting issue regarding the distinction between status of an occupation and the pay of an occupation (which has much to do with schoolteacher pay, as it happens). But as to pay, currently job classifications involving related work have higher pay if they require higher education degrees as a barrier to entry than if they don't. One example that is familiar to industrial psychologists and individual differences psychologists is the pay of engineers and technicians in the same industrial category. AT EVERY LEVEL OF TESTABLE INDIVIDUAL ABILITY, the economic return from becoming an engineer is better than the economic return from becoming technician. Even if what the engineer does on the job is decide that a key technician has to accomplish a task (that is, even if the technician is essential to the process in real-world terms), the engineer will be paid more. This is why there is demand for degrees from second-tier and third-tier engineering programs that look little better academically than glorified high schools, and appear to offer less hands-on technical training than a well designed technical certificate program. Where a worker can fit in the division of labor in a company makes a difference in the worker's pay, and people pursuing education or training look for what will help them make the most pay.

Mike Rowe's thought-provoking testimony to Congress submitted here identifies a problem, but it's not clear that the solution he suggests will work as well as simply reforming immigration laws in the United States in the direction of opening up work-related immigrant visas for skilled trades workers. Perhaps the workers who can best improve their own lot in life as tradesmen in the United States economy are those who have already invested in learning a trade in another country, and who perhaps are learners of English as a second language who might have particular difficulty pursuing a postsecondary academic degree in the United States. That may be the way to fill the skilled trade gap in the United States.

webXL3• 15 years ago

I agree with loosening immigration controls.

Another thing that would help would be for government to get out of meddling in the higher education market. It's so bad now that people think they have a right to higher education (I'm not sure how lower education became a right). Politicians need to grasp that there is a limited supply of education, and a limited demand for the skills that it produces. By subsidizing it, you get a lot of highly skilled labor that there's no demand for. That's a big part of the "skill gap".

steve_b• 15 years ago

I'm curious how schoolteacher salaries affect salaries in other occupations. Could you explain what you mean by that?

tokenadult2• 15 years ago

Thanks for asking the follow-up question. What I mean is that what status people perceive from being in one occupation rather than another is one of several factors that enter into how much pay is necessary to induce people to seek entry into that occupation. A typical online discussion of why one occupation has a higher average rate of pay than another occupation will omit any mention of at least three or four of the factors already identified way back when by Adam Smith.

http://books.google.com/books?id=dDDUAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA216&#...

1. Wages will vary with the ease or hardship, the cleanliness or dirtiness, the honorableness, or dishonorableness of the employment. 2. Wages will vary with the easiness and cheapness, or the difficulty and expense of learning a trade. 3. Wages in different occuptions will vary with the regularity or irregularity of employment. 4. Wages will vary with the degree of trust reposed in an occupation. 5. Wages will vary according to the probability of success in the occupation.

One paradox under the "honorableness" factor that schoolteachers encounter is seeking societal respect (which I would certainly agree an effective teacher well deserves), because if societal respect for teachers goes up, then relative to all other occupations pay for schoolteaching is likely to go down. The "probability of success in the occupation" criterion has some interesting interactions with both honorableness and pay, because managerial policies regarding schoolteachers can either set up lockstep promotion schemes based on years of teaching, with tenure, a high degree of job security, or classic "at will" employment (rarely encountered among public schoolteachers after they have taught for a few years). Management being able to distinguish effective teachers from less effective teachers, reducing the job security of ineffective teachers, should result in higher pay for teachers, other things being equal. Current policies in most states of the United States strongly emphasize job security for public schoolteachers over distinguishing the most and least effective teachers.

P.S. This madness

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0513-tobar-20110513,...

I was just reading via Google News is one reason I despair when I think about current school district management practices. Work rules designed to protect job security on the basis of seniority, and qualifications for jobs in schools based on higher education credentials rather than on performance, hurt everyone in the system--including teachers.

hnal9432• 15 years ago

A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber - if you can find one - is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we'll all be in need of both.

Mr Rowe: this fact, if you really believe it, will ensure the problem is fixed. No need to testify to congress about it.

dagski• 15 years ago

well spoken. I'm glad he provided a balanced approach to the trades. he hit the nail on the head... and to think.. I used to kinda think we was a douche.

ChuckMcM• 15 years ago

Touches on a symptom. The issue is surprisingly complex.

My sister has done workman's compensation insurance and remarked that all the welders were out of work. (or a large number of them). I mentioned that there was a welder shortage in California and she suggested I mention that on some of the forums where they hang out. What I discovered was that there was a number of vocal proponents who argued they wouldn't work in California for the shit rate that was being offered. Instead they would rather be out of work than devalue their time.

So its a fair point, if enough skilled people stay out of the workforce then the economic demand will cause prices to rise to meet the market price. In California its interesting that the tax payers take on that burden and the shortfall threatens the teachers who then jump on to TV ads with their persistent message of non-support.

The question of illegal immigrants came up too but if you look you will find that a skilled welder / carpenter / mason has opportunity in Mexico that they don't need to emigrate for, so its not the issue one might suspect.

You get substitution effects, people substituting unskilled or lightly skilled labor instead. This results in problems later but some of those people will go on to become more skilled which will increase the pool.

A couple of people have mentioned the 'status' question, but from an economic standpoint the pricing of wages should be based on the ability of the population to supply qualified labor not on how 'important' they perceive the job to be. Its not always done that way but it does take personal bias out of the valuation question.

Mike's comment that we need more people in the trades is also tempered by manufacturers who would rather 'fix by replacement' than 'fix by repair' their items. They see someone with a broken washing machine as a motivated buyer, not someone with a problem they can fix. It would be helpful if congress mandated that the information to fix things was made available for free. (think service manuals) While it would burden the manufacturer to write such manuals it would enable repairs and a 'green' industry of keeping equipment running rather than in the dump.

I was hoping that one of the things that would come out of the Auto-melt-down would have been a vehicle that was bare bones, dead simple to repair, and inexpensive. There is demand for such a vehicle but no one is looking to meet it yet.

So "we need more skilled tradesman" as a call to arms has a number of things that it carries with it. I didn't see that the complexity or at least the interconnectivity of it all has been well represented to Congress.

georgieporgie3• 15 years ago

...a vehicle that was bare bones, dead simple to repair, and inexpensive...

That vehicle is anything built before the ~1970s. They're plentiful, and not many people want them. :-)

(I don't believe that there's a demand for a modern, bare-bones car. There's a demand for ever cheaper, air conditioned cars with power windows, intermittent wipers, power steering, etc. though)

potatolicious• 15 years ago

Ever seen a crash test of a car build before the 70s?

There are more reasons to not want one of them than simply the lack of conveniences ;)

lsc2• 15 years ago

I still don't understand why people seem to think that modern cars are so difficult to work on compared to old junk. The onboard diagnostics is standardized and pretty good on most cars; that makes obvious many of your computer problems, timing problems and fuel/air problems.

I mean, most of my experience is working on fuel-injected stuff... but have you ever tried to rebuild a carb? it's damn difficult to get right, and there's no computer telling you when it's correct; you have to essentially guess.

nradov• 15 years ago

The Dacia Logan targets exactly that market and has sold well, although it's not available in the US. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Dacia_Logan It has most of the features you list (not sure about power windows).

wazoox• 15 years ago

In Western Europe, the built-for-developing-countries, ultra-cheap, barebone Dacia cars are a tremendous success. There is definitely a strong demand for 8000 euros sedans with a large trunk.

tlb3• 15 years ago

The welder's union is the good kind of union, a guild that ensures that every licensed welder is thoroughly competent. That restricts supply and keeps wages high.

As an occasional employer of welders, I appreciate their union. Bad welding is really dangerous, and you can't tell the difference by casual inspection, so I'm happy to pay a premium for certified welders.

hugh33• 15 years ago

But should the certification be done by a "union" or an external body? A "union", after all, has screwy incentives.

saranagati• 15 years ago

"The question of illegal immigrants came up too but if you look you will find that a skilled welder / carpenter / mason has opportunity in Mexico that they don't need to emigrate for, so its not the issue one might suspect."

I don't think the issue is with ILLEGAL immigrants, just immigrants. Trades are something everyone can get into either by just starting entry level or learn for very cheap (and they may have learned back in the country of origin). They are also willing to work for much less because they know they don't have the money to go to a college and get a higher education to obtain a higher paying/less laborious job. So they are very happy to take a moderate paying job and will work for less than someone who feels they should make more because they may have had the opportunity to pursue another career.

A friend of mine is a landscaper and became one when he moved out of southern california and made good money. Moving back here to southern california though he had to change professions because he could barely make minimum wage doing that here. His only option if he wants to return to that profession is to go get a degree to become a landscape architect.

jackolas• 15 years ago

Legality of immigration aside, illegal employment is always a factor in the labor market. I'm glad you don't blame the migrant workers for it.

Duff2• 15 years ago

That's simply not true -- there is a reason why trades have apprenticeships, journeyman, and master levels. The fact that you can put a toilet in doesn't make you a master plumber. Immigrant labor floods the low end of the market and starves off the supply of new laborers to the higher end because there's no career path for an illegal, casual worker. That's why a skilled master plumber often can get away with charging $150/hr.

Frankly, white collar jobs like IT are if anything, easier than most trade jobs. Get me someone who can read at a high school level with a reasonable work ethic, and I'll show you a very good IT Pro in 3-5 years. Ditto for programming.

samlevine2• 15 years ago

Making a pencil by yourself is hard. Expecting everyone to make their own pencils is silly.

You don't get more and better food by becoming a better farmer, you get some other guy to be better at farming, and some other guy to be better at making farming equipment, and some other to be better at making software that runs the equipment, and some other guy to be better at making the satellite that gives weather data to the software, and so on and so forth.

Yes, we need people in skilled trades. It might even be a good idea to start retraining idle workers in skilled trades. But specialization isn't just for ants. There is no need to feel bad about the fact that you don't know how to fix your toilet, or computer, or car if you're an otherwise productive adult that happen to know some specialized set of remunerative skills that the plumber/technician/mechanic does not.

georgieporgie3• 15 years ago

I was really annoyed in high school that there was no way to fit in wood & metal shop and programming classes. I even took 'early bird' classes and took PE at the local community college, but still couldn't fit in metal working. It was disappointing to be restricted to a particular skill path at such a young age.

shawnee_• 15 years ago

It occurred to me that I had become disconnected from a lot of things that used to fascinate me. I no longer thought about where my food came from, or how my electricity worked, or who fixed my pipes, or who made my clothes. There was no reason to. I had become less interested in how things got made, and more interested in how things got bought.

Can a modern civilization really be considered "civilized" when things like these salt-of-the-Earth basics are so far removed from the general population?

In Alabama, a third of all skilled tradesmen are over 55. They're retiring fast, and no one is there to replace them.

Indeed, this is another thing. My dad was a construction worker -- he hung drywall for a subcontractor, so you can imagine what his benefits were: zilch. And he worked until about 3 months before he passed away at age 53. These jobs aren't the kinds of jobs people can do until they hit what the rest of society considers a respectable retirement age.

swalkergibson• 15 years ago

Thank you Mike Rowe for putting this on the record!

The trend away from skill-based learning to the ivory tower is contributing to a deterioration in both. University education is moving towards the average at an alarming rate. The value of an undergraduate degree is diminishing by the day, which is further exacerbated by the skyrocketing cost of education. It seems to me that high schools should promote vocational education just as much as they promote four year universities. The current system of trying to get every high schooler into college is asinine, not everyone is cut out for it. It seems to me that students, parents, teachers, and guidance counselors should work better together to identify the strengths and weaknesses of a given individual to determine what that student finds most interesting, and foster that feeling. Instead, schools receive more prestige for graduating more students into university and universities receive more funding for accepting more students. Ridiculous.

StuffMaster• 15 years ago

Around here they're trying to increase the college graduation rate at all costs, education and merit be damned. It's a symptom of the same "everyone must be degreed" mentality.

afterburner• 15 years ago

"I believe we need a national PR Campaign for Skilled Labor."

We had this in Canada a few years back. Or it might have been Ontario only, but in any case, there were lots of TV ads and financial incentives for getting the appropriate education in skilled labour.

webXL3• 15 years ago

Here's a thought: let's subsidize trade schools by not subsidizing colleges!

gubatron• 15 years ago

If most of the readers here are like myself then we can't really do anything about that issue, I can't fix or do anything very well with my hands, takes me forever and ends up doing like a 5 year old did it. I'm great with logic abstractions but I suck in the physical world.

I find it funny this post is #1 on hacker news today.

tlb3• 15 years ago

Good tradesmen are hackers. They hack on 50-200 year-old technology, but it's hacking none the less.

jgorham• 15 years ago

While I appreciate Mike Rowe's sentiments and general argument, this speech reminds of politicians who lament the loss of manufacturing jobs as America's backbone. Economists have regularly pointed out that as a country becomes wealthier and more educated, the share of the economy devoted to manufacturing falls. This isn't really a good or a bad thing, its just a reflection of how that country's resources fit into the global economy. This loss of manufacturing is only a problem when people are losing these jobs in a "race to the bottom" situation, much like Mexico and Asian countries during the 1990's.

However, I do acknowledge that the current education system frowns upon pursuing vocation degrees, when many of my friends would have excelled in these programs during high school if given the opportunity. The important distinction here is that we want jobs that are "skilled," not jobs that are manufacturing per se.

hugh33• 15 years ago

This isn't really a good or a bad thing, its just a reflection of how that country's resources fit into the global economy.

Yes and no. The fact is that some people are dumb. Half the population has a two-digit IQ. As we transition from an economy full of easy jobs (guy who puts things together on a construction line) to hard jobs (guy in charge of a hundred robots which put things together on a construction line) we run out of things which these sorts of people can actually do.

nazgulnarsil• 15 years ago

I don't buy that Dirty Jobs and their like help to reform the image of skilled labor. For everyone I know that watches those shows its more like Intervention where the show just makes you feel better about your life.

elptacek• 15 years ago

The welding program has all but completely shut down at my local community college. They auctioned off all of their machining equipment for fractions of pennies on the dollar about two years ago. If I want to complete any AWS certifications, I will have to drive a ~40mi round trip to Moraine Valley to complete the necessary training. There is literally no place closer, and I live a big city.

So, for my own selfish reasons, I would also like to see a push to increase the numbers of skilled laborers. :-)

alnayyir• 15 years ago

You'll make more money if you tough it out and your skills are rarefied.

swishercutter4• 15 years ago

I believe that the main problem is we have spent the last 20 years "training our replacements" (i.e. selling off semiconductor tech, outsourcing) and not enough time training our children. Maybe if we spent a bit more time teaching our children instead of depending on the schools to do it for us things might be better.

Make time to make things with your children. Life is about more than money, your grandfather knew that.

conradev• 15 years ago

This article really hit home, it describes the situation today quite accurately. I live in a large town in which 90% of the kids at my high school go on to college after graduation, anything besides college is looked down upon.

Our county also runs a smaller technical high school specifically for this stuff, but unfortunately it isn't a very nice school, as there is a lot of violence.

I, personally, would not take an occupation involving this kind of work, being as I have a future somewhere in Computer Science, but I definitely value these skills, and hope to learn a lot of them in the future. Maybe one summer I'll work odd jobs, or fix up my house.

mmaunder• 15 years ago

On indeed.com job search for Seattle most welders seem to earn around $30k per year. Denver seems to be closer to $20K/anum. Not exactly indicative of a shortage driving the price up.

http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=welder&l=seattle%2C+WA

Plumbers are around the same:

http://www.indeed.com/q-Plumber-l-Seattle,-WA-jobs.html

It's a cool story and ole Mike sure has a purty smile. But this strikes me as a bit of PR for Dirty Jobs.

astrofinch• 15 years ago

It's still possible that though there are many plumbers, they're getting older and we're going to see a lot of them retire in the next 10-20 years.

amgine• 15 years ago

I'm not gay but I have a serious crush on Mike. I've always respected people who could fix things regardless of what it is. Mike Rowe's show is pretty much my dream job. "Go do" a bunch of stuff others think is gross, and get dirty. Work with my hands.

Too bad i'm in IT with mouths to feed. Hey, at least it's hardware support

strebel• 15 years ago

frickin lov this guy. My own father is a craftsmen and soon to retire. Dirt is cool

pnathan• 15 years ago

This is something I've thought about in the last year or two as well. We have a culture of "buy", not "fix". In part, this is because we've had a very rich 60 years. In part, this is because things are cheap. In part, because factories design things that are not designed for repair by customers.

The reality is, we can't fix a busted capacitor, a scratched CD, or a damaged microchip. Nor do we have the equipment and spare materials ready to hand to weld cracked plastic. Super Glue is it, and not a very good it.

Whereas, we can fix wood, and with some work, manage metal. Earth can be munged around.

Cars are designed to be maintained, unlike computer hardware (especially our Macs :-( ).

So in a culture where by the nature of the things we use, we can not trivially repair them - we leave off the ideas of repair, and prefer the idea of replace.

This is a problem, because we are more than consumers, more than robots being pipe-fed from the wells of other people's industry.

H.G. Wells' conception of the time traveller always hangs around in my head when this sort of discussion arises.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Time_Machine

Creator of "Dirty Jobs" Mike Rowe testifies to Congress

Related Stories