Top Missing PostgreSQL Features

http://blog.kimiensoftware.com/2011/04/top-10-missing-postgresql-features/

by someotheridiot • 15 years ago

91 31 15 years ago

blog.kimiensoftware.com

rbranson• 15 years ago

The same argument he uses to advocate query hints rests on a situation actually much more likely to occur because of query hint use. Your assumptions can't use runtime statistics or cost configuration to alter a query plan.

pyre• 15 years ago

You're also making assumptions here. You're assuming that the query planner will always chose the right plan unless a human tells it otherwise (therefore bad plans are the fault of the humans).

Assuming that in the author's example it's really the fault of the human the wrote the query with a hint in it, it's not an argument against allowing hints. Just because someone might misuse a tool isn't a reason for not creating it. It's the same argument that the RIAA/MPAA uses when they want to ban P2P technologies (i.e. It can be used to infringe copyright, therefore it should be illegal).

Most of the 'hints-vs-no-hints' arguments devolve into two camps:

1) People that want to have control over the query because they don't fully trust the planner (this mistrust could be logical or illogical -- i.e. people that experienced a need for hints, or people that just don't trust the planner even though it's never given them a bad plan)

2) People that put 100% trust in the planner and say that since the planner is deterministic, then it's a human's fault when it comes up with a bad plan. (i.e. They love The Planner. They trust The Planner. They are careful not to taunt or anger The Planner.)

rbanffy2• 15 years ago

Hints can be useful not only for frequent queries, but those one-off queries a DBA can fire against the database where he knows how the query should be done. I know hints can be misused, but there are times the computer must trust me.

ibejoeb• 15 years ago

I'm pretty much on board with these points. Here's an interesting explanation of the absence of hints: http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/database-soup/why-postgresql-doe....

Also: FIRST_VALUE and LAST_VALUE really need IGNORE NULLS to do proper, high-performance rollforwards for things like time series data and periodic analysis.

gaius2• 15 years ago

OK here is an example off the top of my head. Let's say you have a join between two tables and the query planner wants to do a hash join, because given the statistics on all the tables, that makes perfect sense. Now let's say that you know that you only actually want the first 10 rows. Well a hash join is cheap per row, but expensive to set up. Nested loops are expensive per row, but cheap to set up. So, maybe, actually,as a DBA and a developer I do know what I want, and I can communicate my intent to the planner, and then let it decide.

Anyway, I'd be curious to know what flags the Postgres guys pass into GCC when compiling it. Or do they know better than it's "planner"?

wulczer4• 15 years ago

To answer your question about getting the first 10 rows, you can use the LIMIT clause, which will influence the planner's decisions. Or you can declare a cursor for your query and only fetch the first 10 rows.

As for GCC, it's usually up to the packagers, but the source tree after running ./configure gets compiled with:

  -O2 -Wall -Wmissing-prototypes -Wpointer-arith -Wdeclaration-after-statement -Wendif-labels -Wformat-security -fno-strict-aliasing -fwrapv

dougabug2• 15 years ago

You can restore data to a table from a dump using pg_restore without recreating indexes. If you have a couple extremely large tables, you should consider partitioning them. Partitions are true tables in Postgres, and you should be able to use parallel restore on them.

Bruce Momjian told me on Monday that Robert Haas was leading the index only scan effort, and that this (important) feature should appear in the 9.2 time frame.

Most hints are a bad idea, they represent leaks in the relational abstraction. Further, the DBA's knowledge of the performance characteristics of various tasks is transient, and often quickly mooted by changes in technology, data scale/statistics, or even simple hardware/software reconfiguration. FIRST_ROWS is a reasonable hint, since it speaks to the logical intent of the query, and says something about how much of the data it intends to use and how it prioritizes the results. The planner can then work towards the stated optimization goal.

someotheridiot3• 15 years ago

I think you forgot to finish your sentence. You were about to say how to do it?

dougabug2• 15 years ago

Pg_restore is pretty flexible. You can have it generate a list of the objects in the dump, and then edit that file to create/restore only the objects of interest. You can omit/change permissions, schema objects, restore order, etc. You can also specify data only restore as a command line option. If you don't want the index, just remove it from the table definition and do a data only restore on that table.

wulczer4• 15 years ago

If you find yourself needing an index only scan, you can try to use workarounds like http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Loose_indexscan

btilly• 15 years ago

We've discussed query hints before at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2179433 along with why they don't exist in PostgreSQL. My opinion is clear from that discussion.

The other feature in this list that I really, really like is session tracing. When I used to work with Oracle I implemented a feature that allowed any web page to have the database session logged if you passed in a magic parameter. This was unbelievably useful in debugging performance problems on the live system as they were happening. In fact it proved so useful that we would turn tracing on for one session for some period of time each day, inserting pointless marker queries at the start and end of each web page. We then ran a script through the log to be able to break it up by web page, looked at the slow web pages, what they did, and thought about how we could make it faster. This exercise suggested optimizations that resulted in something like doubling the capacity of our website on that hardware.

This is invaluable data that you simply cannot collect in any other way. You certainly can't turn on logging for the whole database - the website will crash. Sure you can log things at the application level - I did that as well. But it just says, "We ran these queries and got this timing." It doesn't shed light on what is happening inside of the database.

someotheridiot3• 15 years ago

Yes, Oracle's tracing capabilities are awesome. I too have regularly traced individual production sessions. A quick tkprof later (well maybe some dev time too) and that 10 mins report now runs in 10 secs.

wiredfool2• 15 years ago

Multicore aware dump and restore would be a big win. I've hacked something up to do it in python queues and threads calling out to pg_dump. The drawback is that when I do it, I'm not getting a consistent, one transaction dump. But then usually, I'm shutting down the system to do an upgrade when I thwack it like this, so it's a reasonable tradeoff. With a fast set of drives, I can generally dump and reload with a concurrency of roughly O(#cores) in approximately the time it takes for the largest table, rather than the sum of the times for all the tables.

(there's a caveat there, and that's that my biggest tables tend to be toasted, so there's a decent processor load uncompressing the toasted bits. Also, Power law governs table size, and the biggest table is ~ 50+ % of the database, with ~ 100 tables. YMMV)

I wish there was a way to transparently parallelize operations over more than one core. I've got enough operations that are actually processor bound that I could benefit (some) from it. I could partition the database, but that's a management headache.

random42• 15 years ago

Are you looking for something similar to flag -j, --jobs of http://www.postgresql.org/docs/8.4/static/app-pgrestore.html, which implies the number of jobs running in parallel (which to my understanding depends on the number of CPU cores.)

Granted, this only exists for pg_restore (8.4 onwards), no equivalent functionality in postgres for pg_dump.

wiredfool2• 15 years ago

Something like that. The nice thing there is that the index creation is done in parallel, which is not split well with my method.

What I do is dump the schema, then split it between the table creation and the indexes. The first part gets loaded before the data, the second, after. Then all the tables and all the sequences are dumped, optionally teed to disk, and loaded in a psql process to the new location.

I've been doing this since the 7.x series, so it way predates 8.4. (It also predates the in place upgrades, which is a big thing that they've added since I was coming up to speed)

someotheridiot3• 15 years ago

I'm trying to do something similar to copy databases around. Another problem with doing the parallelism manually is that you have to worry about all the annoying dependencies between tables, constraints, functions etc. Arggghhh.

teh• 15 years ago

There are patches for for parallel in 9.1 [1].

[1] https://commitfest.postgresql.org/action/patch_view?id=426

jtchang• 15 years ago

Wow databases have gotten a lot more complicated in the past few years.

bensummers• 15 years ago

If you have DTrace on your platform, there are some interesting probes available which can be handy for tracking down what's going on. Not quite one of the requested features, but it can be used in system wide explorations of performance issues as well as just looking inside the database.

http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/static/dynamic-trace....

wulczer4• 15 years ago

Nice writeup. Point #7 (no logging) should be addressed by CREATE UNLOGGED TABLE (http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/sql-createta...) which is coming in 9.1

rbanffy2• 15 years ago

I was fully expecting a very troll-ish article. Instead, I got a list of very interesting features I agree would be very nice to have and an excellent discussion here on HN.

I can sum it up with a smiley :-)

brown9-2• 15 years ago

"They would rather spend time improving the optimiser in future versions". OK nice idealistic thinking. Meanwhile on planet Earth, I’m trying to convince management that they need to redesign their app that hasn’t been touched in years because of some gradual growth in the data that screwed up PostgreSQL into thinking it should run the queries in a sub-optimal way.

Wouldn't re-ANALYZE-ing the tables in question help fix this problem, where the statistics that Postgres has about the table access patterns no longer fit reality?

lobster_johnson• 15 years ago

That presumes that Postgres will always make good decisions based on up-to-date statistics, which is unfortunately not true. The statistics are just a sample across a subset of your data, collecting things like value frequencies, for a single table. It does not track inter-tabular correlations, which means that it can never truly plan joins optimally because it does not know at the outset how many rows will match any given row in a join. I have hit many cases where a query will use a nested loop and take 5-10 seconds to run where an index scan would have taken just a few milliseconds. Some discussion here: http://archives.postgresql.org/message-id/603c8f070902180908...

cafard• 15 years ago

How about packages in PgSQL? Package state can be so damn handy.

Roboprog• 15 years ago

This was an interesting article. In some ways, I think I learned more about Oracle than PostgreSQL, but it's all good. My perspective is developer, rather than DBA, so it was enlightening to delve into another's specialty.

I've occasionally used Postgres at home, including doing some work at home long ago for a (small batch oriented) project to be hosted on Oracle at work. Irony on that project: my crap hardware at home outperformed the server at work, due to neglect by the Oracle DBAs at work. The DBAs had to really be pushed to index several of the tables, as we had to convince them that we really did read some tables and columns many times, rather than generate "write once, read never" type data :-) In contrast, the default Postgres setup did well at this particular job running at home with my "2 cans on a string" setup: 200 MHz Athlon client & 166 Mhz P1 "server", joined by a 96 Kb serial PPP connection! (I forgot why I used 2 machines instead of 1, but computers were small back then -- my "Atom" laptop now has more computrons than those boxes)

I found that MySQL was not even close (at least 10 years ago) to emulating Oracle. At least Postgres was close enough to make the effort, and the poster's comparison, worthwhile.

tsewlliw• 15 years ago

I really liked the article, it made me think about interesting problems, but I only count 7 features in it.

>1. Query progress >3. Session Wait Data >4. Session Tracing

These are all the same feature. Granted, it's an awesome feature, and thats a reasonable division.

>2. Index Only Scans >5. Multiple Block I/O

These are real valid (and separate) points. There's a good argument for leaving 5 to the OS, but it does mean accepting that the OS might suck at predicting what you want.

>6. Tablespace Quotas

It doesn't seem like this should be so hard -- use a user-space FS with a cap.

>7. No Logging

Why are you creating indexes all the time? Large data loads I can see.

>9. Query Hints

Flamebait, but acknowledged as such.

>8. Better Export/Import Tools >10. More Backup/Restore Options

Seriously, you just used the flamebait between these two so you'd make it to 10. Nice tactic :)

tszming• 15 years ago

Seriously, get a decent bug tracker for the project.

agentultra• 15 years ago

I think 9.0 might be addressing it, but lack of replication has been a feature I've missed a fair bit.

Shipping WAL files over rsync seems a little.. hackey to me. Worse still, Postgres has to load the entire WAL on the slave when it wakes (whereas with Oracle you can query the slave before it has finished loading the WAL files since it can pause and continue).

Disclosure: I'm not a DBA or specialist in this area. I know enough to pick sensible architectures, optimize queries, and maintain good indexes.

amock• 15 years ago

9.0 has asynchronous replication and 9.1 will have synchronous replication http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/warm-standby... .

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