Apple is holding the Unreal Engine hostage, Epic says in new motion

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/23/21397369/epic-apple-fortnite-lawsuit-ios-microsoft-developer-tax

by ArmandGrillet • 6 years ago

53 108 6 years ago

phreack• 6 years ago

How can Apple prevent an unrelated dev from publishing something made with Unreal by banning Epic's account? Can't I deploy an app to the App Store with my own?

falcolas10• 6 years ago

They can't. This is another attempt by Epic at gaining public sympathy for intentionally breaking the terms of their licensing agreement with Apple to publish on the app store.

n42• 6 years ago

Between this PR nonsense and attempting to strong-arm it’s way into the market by introducing exclusives to PC, I have quite little sympathy for Epic.

Apple’s “bad behavior” here ultimately aligns with my desires as a consumer. By controlling the marketplace, they enforce privacy and UX controls. They use that money to improve the products I use every day.

I cannot say the same for Epic. Every battle they are starting is to degrade my experience as a consumer so they can make even more money.

gpm6• 6 years ago

This is a legal argument to a court attempting to get an injunction. It seems to me to have very little to do with public sympathy.

The public really doesn't give a crap about whether or not their is one contract or multiple, or the quality of apples legal arguments, which seems to be some of the core issues raised in this motion responding to Apple's motion.

dna_polymerase• 6 years ago

Apple could cut Epic's access to developer tools, which would make it impossible for Epic to support (patch and adding features) Unreal Engine on iOS and Mac. At least this is what the article states.

falcolas10• 6 years ago

The engine is released with the game, not as a stand-alone binary. The dev tools are a different story, but unrelated to the question.

And even if this did impact the engine, perhaps epic should have thought about that when playing chicken with Apple.

dep_b2• 6 years ago

The developer tools are free for anyone with a free developer account. So they still have access, just not with the account they used for distributing Fortnite. Any 3rd party dev using Unity will use it’s own account.

an_opabinia7• 6 years ago

Apple can prevent it just by saying so, and you'd have no recourse.

Is there something inaccurate about this answer? This is what this saga is all about.

mey• 6 years ago

Strategically, I wonder who has the most to lose if the Unreal engine is basically deplatformed from Apple.

iOS is a huge game market, but how many iOS games are powered by Unreal? macOS is a tiny game market.

For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS.

I would also expect game developers to be mad at Epic to be playing chicken with their game engine, although that may be unexpected fall out. It might drive some game developers to move to other engines although this is probably a stretch.

DecoPerson• 6 years ago

Those game developers may also benefit from what comes of this ordeal. They too need to pay a 30% cut to Apple (plus some % to Epic for the Unreal Engine).

falcolas10• 6 years ago

Given that iOS games/apps are purported to work on Arm based macOS, it’s actually a whole potentially new market.

an_opabinia7• 6 years ago

basically deplatformed from Apple.

Nobody takes deplatforming seriously until it hits them. It's the slippery slope, played out in real time.

Is this inaccurate? Epic doesn't make some fringe hate content, they make the world's most popular video game. Exactly zero normal people foresaw Epic losing access to the app store and development tools completely, regardless about how you feel about whether they should pay 30% or 0% or whatever in IAP fees.

And now, only now, it's newsworthy that some app, like that WordPress app no one has heard of, also gets deplatformed for totally bullshit reasons. Every scenario is different, but surely you see, that it's about the power to deplatform, not the reasons, that people don't take seriously.

hellisothers3• 6 years ago

These are totally different situations and comparing them will make things worse not better. Epic 100% knew this was going to happen and opted to do it anyway to throw bombs. They could continue to operate and make money but they want that 30%. Wordpress was not trying to make a dramatic point, they’re just trying to be a reasonable citizen and ran afoul of a policy.

yyyk6• 6 years ago

Apple never cared about games (minus maybe a short period when the G4 came out), and gamedevs know it. Unreal was never a serious contender for iOS. So no serious immediate effect on either side.

In the long run, gamedevs would be even more reluctant to provide iOS/MacOS builds, which doesn't matter at all since people don't buy Macs for gaming.

benologist2• 6 years ago

Apple cares desperately about exclusivity since even before Cook. If Android has the same games and the same apps then there is less reason to favor iOS. There is nothing sacrificed to move between platforms. They don't care for any technology that fosters multi-platform games or apps.

Apple Arcade could basically be called "Games Never On Android".

Here’s what being “exclusive to Apple Arcade” means. The game is a mobile-exclusive and cannot be released on other mobile operating systems ... Video game consoles are not considered mobile

https://9to5mac.com/2019/09/13/apple-arcade-exclusive-means-...

They even banned Unity3d, Mono and the concept of 'cross compilers' while they were waging war on Flash, who at that point were perfecting cross-platform compiling from Flash "the IDE" to native Android and iOS apps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoughts_on_Flash

desire to avoid "a third party layer of software coming between the platform and the developer"

They even are on record complaining about Amazon promoting Kindle books being accessible cross-platform.

https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/31/emails-apple-blocked-ki...

While the primary message is that there are Kindle apps on lots of devices, the secondary message [something garbled] is that it is easy to switch from iPhone to Android

Hamuko2• 6 years ago

Apple never cared about games

They're currently trying to sell people a gaming subscription service.

bjo5902• 6 years ago

For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a serious death to gaming on macOS.

ARM could be a boon for macOS gaming if it allows for better access to iOS titles.

yyyk6• 6 years ago

It's rather unlikely that titles made for an entirely different control method and a screen smaller by a factor of 4 to 5 will provide a good experience.

weego2• 6 years ago

Epic wants to ship 'Epic Payments' as a built in and trivial to enable feature in every Unreal built game which I'm sure would give a much higher cut to devs which in turn would drive higher and higher %s of devs for IOS to their engine.

This is Apple trying to ward off a business model they consider parasitic and destructive to a large chunk of their app store revenue.

mdoms• 6 years ago

What a world we live in where running code on a computer without giving a third of your revenue to that computer's manufacturer could be considered "parasitic" by anyone.

mullingitover3• 6 years ago

I have a feeling this was a calculated move for Epic to save face while abandoning MacOS development of the Unreal dev tools. If it really mattered to them, they could remove their TOS-violating hacks from Fortnite and get their developer license reinstated at any time.

Keep in mind that everything here has been gamed out ahead of time by Epic. They knew they would get their app removed for the brazen TOS violation. They knew that it would result in their developer account being suspended, and they knew that it meant their other apps tied to that account would also be locked out.

Gwypaas5• 6 years ago

To sue they need to have standing, simply asking and getting a no and then carrying on accepting the old standard won't get you anywhere.

Despegar5• 6 years ago

I really don't understand why people keep saying this. They had standing because they were a party to the Developer Program License Agreement. They would have had standing even if they weren't because they allege they're being denied use of an "essential facility".

mullingitover3• 6 years ago

Sure, but let's be honest, their lawsuit probably doesn't have any chance of success. Apple's terms are the same as Playstation/Xbox/Nintendo and they're not crying about those platforms not allowing them to open up their own app store there. The courts are going to tell them the obvious, that you can't call a monopoly on your own products a true Monopoly for antitrust purposes.

I have a feeling their money on iOS is a rounding error compared to the serious gaming platforms, and this whole thing is basically a marketing activity that they calculated would pay off better than the revenues they'd lose from losing access to iOS/Mac.

nodamage• 6 years ago

They already had standing from the $300 million Apple collected in IAP fees, so they didn't need to actually break the contract to file their lawsuit.

wizzwizz4• 6 years ago

I want to support Epic, because they're challenging Apple's monopoly. But… I have a feeling they're not doing it to be nice to us, but because Apple's mooching off “their turf” (i.e. us) when they want to be doing all the mooching.

weego2• 6 years ago

There no one to support here. If Epic was to force some kind of change here, expect Epic Pay in every Unreal game whi h may have benefits in the short term but how long does that ever last?

gpm6• 6 years ago

but how long does that ever last?

Forever? Because now there are competing payment providers.

read_if_gay_• 6 years ago

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

suyash• 6 years ago

EPIC and it's CEO are a bunch of hypocrites trying to get a special deal just for them from Apple and now playing victim when got rejected.

leafboi3• 6 years ago

Who cares. The whole point of free market capitalism is to have self interested actors competing to create change that benefits society as a whole. It may not work all the time but right now this is an example of the invisible hand at work.

If it were not for competing business interest what human is altruistic enough to throw this many resources at taking down apples monopolistic iron grip over the app market?

Support Epic not for their moral reasoning, support them because their interests align with yours.

xondono5• 6 years ago

Support Epic not for their moral reasoning, support them because their interests align with yours.

How do you know? I don’t

dsign• 6 years ago

While I understand this is an ugly turf war between Epic and Apple, I'm a little confused about certain other app. How is it that Audible (owned by Amazon) let's you "spend credits" that you purchase at Audible.com directly in the iOS App? Are they getting special treatment?

Hamuko2• 6 years ago

Doesn't Amazon have a better deal with Apple than pretty much anyone else?

pacetherace• 6 years ago

Apple is not opposed to payment systems that load money from a website into a platform like Spotify or Amazon. They are opposed to payment systems that bypass their Apple payment system from an app.

xondono5• 6 years ago

It doesn’t. Purchases need to be done through the audible web.

Even the amazon app doesn’t allow buying kindle ebooks directly.

sauwan• 6 years ago

Seriously? Why do Apple users tolerate this?

falcolas10• 6 years ago

A quick Meta aside: Even if you absolutely utterly and completely loathe Apple for their App store policies, Epic is not the company you want to be backing.

1) They engage in anti-customer behavior by buying exclusives. They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed.

2) If they can't get an Indie as an exclusive, they don't want it. They don't want to compete with Day and Date releases.

3) Their war chest is funded by gambling mechanics, mostly gambling mechanics which are actively aimed at minors. While I can understand arguments for "parents should parent" and "adults should be allowed to adult", Epic is based out of the US, and gambling is largely controlled within the US.

4) EDIT: Oh, and their weaponizing their minor-heavy userbase as well against Apple - their trailer and anti-apple skins are being promoted in Fortnight (Rated T by the ESRB).

So yeah. Hate Apple all you want - there's plenty there to hate. But don't let your hatred of Apple push you into backing Epic.

ohgodplsno• 6 years ago

They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed.

Timed exclusives, mind you. Also, it literally doesn't matter and just changes where you download the game from, woohoo.

Absolutely support Epic on this endeavor. Anything that can make Apple eat shit is a valuable investment of your time.

RHSeeger• 6 years ago

It absolutely does matter, because every "app store" you install on your computer is one more attach vector you open up.

dang• 6 years ago

Please don't post to HN in the flamewar style. It's not what this site is for.

istorical• 6 years ago

Two large evil corporations is better than one large evil corporation. It at least encourages consumer-friendly practices as a means of competition.

falcolas10• 6 years ago

FWIW, I don't think history is proving this out. Apple and Google haven't exactly become bastions of customer friendliness, despite their competition in the mobile space.

Nor have ISPs, Online Retailers, repair shops, etc.

_qulr5• 6 years ago

Their war chest is funded by gambling mechanics, mostly gambling mechanics which are actively aimed at minors.

Funny that Apple wants a cut of this action.

In fact the App Store was a giant contributor to the free with In App Purchase model of software, undermining the previous paid upfront model.

falcolas10• 6 years ago

As I said, there's plenty to hate about Apple as well. But as bad as that IAP is for companies, it's actually not terrible for customers - they're only having to interact with one trusted party when it comes to their payments. The cost will be higher (which is not nice) since companies will pass that cost on to their customers.

This in comparison to the wild west of submitting your payment information to every Tom, Dick and Mary out there.

zachm0• 6 years ago

They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed.

I see this a lot but I have yet to come across a good explanation of why this matters, could you explain? From my point of view it doesn't make a difference when the developer gets the money, an exclusive is an exclusive.

oliwarner• 6 years ago

Means people who want it on Steam (Linux, Big Picture, local and remote streaming, etc) have to wait.

I tick all those boxes. I just want to honk.

AkelaA• 6 years ago

Not to mention it's a false statement. They do fund exclusives through their publishing arm, and are currently in the process of funding the next games by Remedy (creators of Control), Playdead (Limbo, Inside), and Gen Design (ex Team Ico team, responsible for The Last Guardian and such): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_m4LxDG1D4

And according to Skybound Games CEO, Epic was also involved in helping to establish the team that completed development of The Walking Dead's final season after Telltale collapsed, so it wasn't just a case of Epic simply buying exclusivity after the fact:

"We’re excited to work together on their latest transformative event with the launch of the Epic Games Store. Epic stepped up to the plate immediately to work with us in order to bring the original team back together and ensure fans will receive the completed season of ‘Telltale’s The Walking Dead: The Final Season.'”"

https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/telltales-the-walking-d...

And really, the same can be said for other exclusive games that are still in development, since money given to the devs is money that inevitably goes into the production of the game. By virtue meaning that they're helping to fund the game, at least in part.

Epskampie• 6 years ago

I'm not even sure what "backing" Epic would mean in this context, but if they somehow are able to force Apple to release it's dictatorial grip on the app store, I'm all for it. I don't really care what kind of company Epic is, the result counts.

martin_bech• 6 years ago

No they are not, Epic decided to go all out, thereby risking the all ios business including the Unreal Engine.

candiddevmike• 6 years ago

I am continuously surprised by the response from a lot of the HN community to this. I would never have expected people to be championing the kind of gate keeping Apple (and Google) have been enjoying for years. It hurts consumers by driving prices, forcing awful IAP business models, and holds back innovation due to private APIs or "policy violations".

These app stores are filled with so much shit these days that it's impossible to find quality software, and the app store model gives these companies little opportunity to differentiate and sell their offerings.

Give me the ability to install apps from any store, website, or platform. Give me the ability to use a device whatever way I decide. Incentive developers to create useful, enjoyable software instead of IAP shovelware. Make it the norm and break users from depending on The One App Store.

pwinnski• 6 years ago

You have that ability: buy any android phone!

darksaints• 6 years ago

I've learned to no longer be surprised by it. There are a huge amount of people in this industry who have staked their personal identity in a brand. Apple, Tesla, Google, or whatever. It's no different than the high school behavior I grew up with where you were allowed be one of three types of people: Chevy, Ford, or Dodge.

ResidentSleeper• 6 years ago

The unusually downvoted answer holds the key to the riddle: it's the hardcoded tribalism making us justify our purchases as if they're political statements.

Despegar5• 6 years ago

Give me the ability to install apps from any store, website, or platform. Give me the ability to use a device whatever way I decide. Incentive developers to create useful, enjoyable software instead of IAP shovelware. Make it the norm and break users from depending on The One App Store.

You're continuously surprised that most people aren't ideologues about this?

These are old debates about computers. Decades ago the rift was between computer tinkerers and Apple for what they derisively called "appliances". They cared, customers didn't. The rest is history.

dep_b2• 6 years ago

Any iOS developer at Epic can still use their own developer account, even a free one, to access all of the tools they need. The only thing impossible is _deploying_ their own software like Fortnite. Any 3rd party Unity dev has it’s own certificate and isn’t hurt by this.

Pretending you’re blocked on doing anything for iOS and macOS because the account you use to deploy Fortnite has been locked is bullshit

Apple is holding the Unreal Engine hostage, Epic says in new motion

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