Amazon establishes new Counterfeit Crimes Unit

https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazon-establishes-new-counterfeit-crime-unit

by ssully • 6 years ago

311 236 6 years ago

blog.aboutamazon.com

verdverm• 6 years ago

I mentally added the word time in the middle of the domain name and chuckled. It would be great if they did that, show that they still have a bit of humanity left over there

7863949364• 6 years ago

They should start by investigating themselves for antitrust violations.

ComputerGuru• 6 years ago

They do this every six to twelve months:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22106305

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19091852

It’s just platitudes so long as their interests are served by pretending the problem doesn’t exist.

ourmandave• 6 years ago

I thought it was a study committee to see how they can get a bigger cut.

Zaheer• 6 years ago

This goes beyond just words. Establishing a dedicated team to investigate / prosecute Counterfeiters is a solid step forward.

arkades3• 6 years ago

Until they start prosecuting people and putting up barriers to counterfeit sales, it is just words. They're slightly different words, but still.

starpilot• 6 years ago

I just bought some gym shorts from Target for $20. Amazon had some for the same price, but numerous reviews with photos showed people were getting fakes. Fuck that. Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon.

boulos2• 6 years ago

Target of all places seems more curated than Amazon.

Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer? The nature of FBA and third-party sellers just means there will always be at least some percentage of fraud and so on that’s higher than “trick various people in the retailer to sell fake goods”.

Particularly as it’s much easier for insiders at a retailer to steal from their employer (and then resell via whatever means), I think the utility for “put fake goods on the shelf” at a retail shop is basically zero. I dunno, maybe you can trick/bribe the person near the start of the supply chain, but it wouldn’t take long for returns to pile up and an investigation to find “Jim and Sally colluded to sell fake gym shorts”.

jacques_chester3• 6 years ago

Isn’t this going to be true of any “pure” retailer?

No. First-party retailers don't generally commingle stock with other third-party retailers. They typically have few suppliers, often one supplier, for each good. That's for many reasons, but it also makes it easy for them to identify who sent them counterfeits.

Amazon is discovering what old-fashioned retailers learned long ago: customers do not give a fuck who, ultimately, has injected the counterfeit. They will blame the retailer.

If I was Wal-Mart I would be absolutely hammering this point to customers. I'd be running ads about "Shamazon". Tearful mothers whose child got sick. Teens who saved up for a game system or phone and got a block of wood. Grandparents who bought medical equipment and got a faulty knockoff. Everything dangerous, disgusting, outrageous or even just annoying. I'd be carpet-bombing every channel with ads amplifying the message that Amazon can't guarantee what you get. Wal-Mart aren't saints, but their historical success has rested heavily on an incredibly tight grip of their supply chain and logistics. They do actually know what they have on the shelf.

ghaff2• 6 years ago

The more you focus and the more you curate, the more you can trust you're getting what you think you're getting and the more confidence you can have in the overall supply chain.

The tradeoff is selection and probably price--although for some large specialist retailers like B&H Photo you largely do get both price and a pretty good selection of products.

Amazon should at least better separate the products it largely has control over the provenance of and everything else. But a third party marketplace is always to be hit or miss in terms of what you get.

jacobush• 6 years ago

Is it really "selection" though anymore, when it comes down to a throw of the dice what you actually get home when you order?

A wide random selection is still wide I guess.

nr2x• 6 years ago

Yes, I initially thought so as well, and shifted my buying accordingly. However, I bought an HDMI dongle from one of Target's supposedly vetted partners and when I got it it was clearly open-box. When I tried to get Target to replace or refund they weren't able to help me via normal channels and told me I had to call some other number. Given the time cost was non-trivial, and the item was, I just decided to never order electronics from Target again. I'm down to BH at this point.

LegitShady2• 6 years ago

Amazon traded their quality for being a market platform and taking a cut of a much larger pie with more selection

Unfortunately they also completely ignored counterfeit issues which has sabotaged their reputation. I think this is just damage control because I'd they're selling coungerfeit goods with some knowledge of the issue they mm at have some Liabity.

benologist• 6 years ago

I wonder if they will solve the mystery of how executives either didn't know, or didn't do anything about it, for so many years even as it was widely reported. It might have been more appropriate to use a federal investigative body and start with whatever misconduct, or deficit of attention, has been enabling the counterfeiters to thrive on Amazon for years.

rckoepke6• 6 years ago

The categories of things that I've received counterfeit versions of on Amazon have been truly mind-blowing. It's been replacement HEPA filters, cat toys, even breakfast cereal. It's not just earphones/mics, batteries, usb cables, flash drives, extension cords, and other electronics.

Who counterfeits breakfast cereal??? I've had this issue with both Quaker Oats and Raisin Bran. The scale of fraud is magnificent. And it really gaslights consumers; it took me forever to actually accept that I was eating an off-brand imitation of my favorite cereals.

I do still buy from Amazon. The ease of returns still gives me confidence that I can decide after receiving an item whether the price:quality ratio is worth it.

But not if I absolutely need it to conform to certain standards and I don't have the skills/tools to validate the performance myself (like HEPA filters). Then I tend to buy from somewhere with a more curated supply chain (Home Depot, direct from manufacturers website, etc).

jbay8082• 6 years ago

My company got a counterfeit textbook.

On the cover was the book we had ordered, about control theory. The printed pages were a veterinary textbook by a different publisher.

ponker• 6 years ago

That, frankly, is downright pleasant compared to counterfeit food.

LegitShady2• 6 years ago

That must have been a hilarious return.

CobrastanJorji• 6 years ago

I'm curious about the incentive that leads to this. If you're going to print and sell counterfeit textbooks, why not use the actual content? Surely nearly every copy with a random other book will be returned. Is it possible that they meant to include the right content, but they counterfeit lots of books and have low quality control? My best guess is that they can easily grab a copy of a book's cover online, but actually acquiring and scanning a copy of each book is cost prohibitive, so they just sell entirely fake ones and hope that they get at least some money out of it.

r00fus2• 6 years ago

Was that order fulfilled by Amazon? I have a suspicion that some of the "counterfeiting" is done by substitution of inventory by a bad actor, and FBA silently ignoring that.

VendorA sells a good product with decent margin using FBA as their fulfillment mechanism.

VendorFakeA claims to sell same product with discount and sends seemingly valid inventory to FBA - which co-mingles the inventory and throws away the receipts.

Customer buys something from VendorA but gets VendorFakeA product instead.

It's like a supply-chain joe-job but VendorFakeA profits.

julianozen• 6 years ago

Really interested to hear how you figured out the breakfast was fake

rckoepke6• 6 years ago

Yeah, great question. Basically wrong flavor and texture. Visually looked quite similar but just had a cardboard consistency. Repeatedly compared vs. grocery store bought over a few months span of alternating purchases to confirm.

It was somehow both immediately obvious and also subtle. My girlfriend eventually confirmed that something didn't seem right with it, so we started buying back-to-back orders alternating from grocery stores vs. amazon. Every once in awhile we'd get non-counterfeit cereal from Amazon but mostly it was "fake". Or at least diverted from another global region where the recipe/ingredients are somewhat different.

I always wanted to do some quantitative analysis like density or fill size or precise box dimensions or spectrometry of the ink on the boxes. But at the time I was just trying to convince myself that I wasn't crazy, and eventually I was 100% sure so I stopped experimenting before bothering to collect quantitative data.

gregmac• 6 years ago

I don't order food from Amazon at all because I don't trust them not to send something counterfeit or expired. It's just not worth the risk/hassle, and a lot of the time they're not the best price anyway.

I'm also extremely cautious about electronics, but there are still certain categories (such as memory cards) that I won't even consider. Usually the only benefit from Amazon vs anywhere else is shipping, and saving $shipping is simply not worth the risk of using a fake card.

This is a step in the right direction to fixing the problem, but I'm not sure I'd trust anything -- even stuff sold by Amazon itself -- so long as they co-mingle inventory.

numpad02• 6 years ago

They pretend to “fight counterfeit” occasionally but the “rampant” counterfeits on Amazon is structural and strategic. Marketplace seller competition is a race to the bottom against all of global online shopping so genuine examples can’t possibly survive.

jacobwilliamroy• 6 years ago

Oh my god you ordered food in the mail. Did you put it inside your body? Are you okay?

nytesky• 6 years ago

In times pandemic I’ve been ordering from Target, CVS, and Costco. Do is this a bad idea?

rckoepke6• 6 years ago

I thought this was hilarious personally but in general, this kind of comment doesn't really add to the discussion and feels not very appropriate for HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should be more thoughtful and substantive, not less.

However, I will absolutely take the opportunity to plug a food-by-mail company that is very near and dear to my heart:

https://www.zingermans.com/OnlineCatalog.aspx

Prices are obviously a bit high, but the quality is amazing. They treat staff incredibly well. They do lots of employee training so people really can work their way up from Janitor to whatever they want. Pay has always been above average. All finances are essentially open-book to employees and they go through each businesses (it's a conglomerate now) monthly/quarterly finances on a whiteboard with the team members so that everyone understands where they're at.

Sometimes ordering food by mail is awesome.

throwaway_jobs6• 6 years ago

Here is one (plus the story of a defective product lawsuit behind it).

A water slide. The type that bolts down into concrete for use with pools. If the first thing in your mind is...isn’t that something from the 70’s/80’s...yes it is.

So the counterfeiter must have molded the entire slide (complete with the company logo that was embossed into the slide itself) thing is that company was dissolved back in the 80’s.

So purchaser’s kid cuts their leg open on the slide and they sue for defective product. Of course the investigation leads to suing this Dissolved manufacturer. As I recall the dissolved entity actually defended (sort of rare from a dissolved Corp that dissolved so long ago) and it was only during expensive phase of discovery they learned they didn’t manufacture the slide In question, and that it was completely counterfeited.

One day Amazon is going to get smacked with such a lawsuit resulting in billions in punitive damages, then and only then will you see real effort on their part to curb this behavior.

raverbashing2• 6 years ago

Edit: theory probably doesn't work, see comments below

So the counterfeiter must have molded the entire slide (complete with the company logo that was embossed into the slide itself) thing is that company was dissolved back in the 80’s.

I have a simpler explanation for that. Someone bought the tooling (injection moulds?), in an auction maybe, didn't bother to change the brand and is out there manufacturing slides.

It's not "counterfeit" per se they just didn't give a f. (to use the technical term) and are selling it. Maybe outside branding is theirs but not the plastic one.

tux1968• 6 years ago

That's interesting, how do you sue a company that hasn't been in business for 20 or 30 years?

hitpointdrew• 6 years ago

One day Amazon is going to get smacked with such a lawsuit resulting in billions in punitive damages, then and only then will you see real effort on their part to curb this behavior.

IIRC at least one person (probably more) has died already from counterfeits on Amazon. I read one where I guy died in a motorcycle crash, it was found that his helmet (which he bought off Amazon) was a fraud and wasn't/didn't meet DOT standards, even though it had the DOT sticker.

jtbayly3• 6 years ago

One day Amazon is going to get smacked with such a lawsuit resulting in billions in punitive damages, then and only then will you see real effort on their part to curb this behavior.

Amazon has been sued many times over similar things. The precedent is very strong. They win every case because they are not the seller. Unless the law changes, there is little hope of this happening like you expect.

xphilter• 6 years ago

Impossible. Congress has given amazon a get-out-of-jail-free-card in rye form of an arbitration clause with no stare decisis and no public access to the harm or outcome.

bdowling• 6 years ago

I assume this is the same defective water slide case:

https://www.casebriefs.com/blog/law/civil-procedure/civil-pr...

Here, the issue was whether the defendant manufacturer could amend their pleading to deny manufacturing the defective water slide after they had initially admitted it. The court found that they could. Subsequently, a special jury found that the defendant did not manufacture the water slide and the judge granted summary judgment for the defendant.

If I recall correctly, it was the installer that had gone out of business or was otherwise unreachable and the water slide was unmarked as to the true manufacturer, which left the plaintiffs (or their insurers) out of luck.

ornornor2• 6 years ago

One day Amazon is going to get smacked with such a lawsuit resulting in billions in punitive damages, then and only then will you see real effort on their part to curb this behavior.

I can’t wait for that day. What they’re doing is criminal in my opinion.

But unwind hold my breath. The story about electric Skateboards burning someone’s house down resulted in amazon being „only a reseller“ with „no responsibility“ wrt the resulting property damage from them selling a battery powered scooter that didn’t meet safety standards.

moksly• 6 years ago

Aren’t they just going to use the same defence that google, Facebook and others do, that they are just a platform and not responsible for the content users put on there?

I realise this may sound critical, but I’m not American and I’m genuinely interested to know if this defence wouldn’t work for Amazon.

snarf21• 6 years ago

The issue is so simple to solve and they don't have to have a crimes unit to do it. Simply segment reviews and ratings based on seller. All you have to do is have each seller put a scannable sticker on each product based each batch going through intake. You can even still colocate. Then all the returns and bad reviews go to the right person and they can just get banned. This is not rocket surgery.

ConcernedCoder2• 6 years ago

counterfeit stickers...

kube-system2• 6 years ago

Amazon has a program for this:

https://brandservices.amazon.com/transparency

russdill• 6 years ago

Leads to sellers gaming the review system, such as offering compensation/consideration to buyers leaving reviews and/or providing fraudulent reviews.

jedberg• 6 years ago

My number one rule with Amazon is that I don't buy anything that is supposed to go in my body. I don't trust it enough to get legit safe items.

Anything else I figure if it's counterfeit but still works it's not the end of the world (although I'm pretty cautious about which electronics I get).

draw_down• 6 years ago

If people can make a quick buck counterfeiting it then they will.

For me it doesn't work to say "who would do that??", I'd rather focus on "Why has Amazon let the problem get this insanely bad?"

amelius• 6 years ago

Someone should counterfeit the Amazon website.

elliekelly3• 6 years ago

If Azamon.com promises to be more diligent in monitoring for counterfeit items I would happily become a Preme subscriber.

ilkan2• 6 years ago

Rocket Internet

29athrowaway• 6 years ago

There's fraud in clothing too.

They reuse product photos from higher quality products to sell you a lower quality product.

pjc502• 6 years ago

Can anyone confirm if this happens in countries with functioning consumer protection? Or is it just an Amazon.us thing?

mike_d• 6 years ago

Even with strong consumer protections, the bad actors are often based overseas. There is little to no incentive for the Chinese government to inhibit fraud taking place in the US or Europe.

mfkp• 6 years ago

I've got a hard rule of not ordering anything from Amazon that goes in/on my body. Too many counterfeits and too much risk. I'll stick with trusted retailers for that (ordering from Target is just about as easy these days, maybe slightly slower shipping but can pick it up in-store if I need it fast).

Even Walmart is getting hard to shop online and filter out products that are sold by "marketplace" sellers.

BluePen7• 6 years ago

I started following that rule a while ago too, I wouldn't trust some random off-brand food from amazon, but the brand name food has a fair bit of markup.

If the counterfeiters are willing to produce anything to make a buck, and amazon is willing to sell counterfeit goods as legitimate, it makes sense we'd eventually have counterfeit brand name cereal or canned goods.

A while ago my fiancee was having trouble finding some Eagle Brand Medicated Oil (it's this traditional asian stuff her mom rubbed on her), and I saw it was on amazon. It's possible they have changed their manufacturing processes slightly since her previous bottle, or it was different because it wasn't as old, but it just kept being every so slightly different in subtle ways, such as the feel of the bottle and even cap, the texture of the oil, the smell was a bit different, the box was a bit bigger, etc.

I honestly still am not sure if it's counterfeit or not, but that's just the issue, I don't have the means to check. My only choice is to buy from sources with trusted supply chains.

It's ironic, I was the first of all my friends to start using amazon excessively, and got them into it, but nowadays my fiancee remarks she found her workout supplement on there for a few dollars cheaper and I reflexively reply "Hell no! We don't put things from amazon in our body.

At this point I only trust them with things that can fail on their own without causing damage, or for products so complicated no one has made a knock-off yet (I'm waiting on knock-off brand name monitors). They went from this amazing cheaper alternative to big-box stores, to AliExpress with 2 day shipping.

baybal2• 6 years ago

Who counterfeits breakfast cereal??? I've had this issue with both Quaker Oats and Raisin Bran. The scale of fraud is magnificent. And it really gaslights consumers; it took me forever to actually accept that I was eating an off-brand imitation of my favorite cereals.

Take a look on what is going in China for a fast forward look into the future.

What you see in China now is exactly that. Pro counterfeiters mostly make money on rarely contested, or completely uncontested, hard to trace, abandoned, or obscure niches. Nobody nowadays buys into Abibas, but quite a few seekers of highly hyped boutique stuff often buy into exotic goods fakes.

And on the other end of the spectrum, there are fake foods, and fake daily use goods, things few people would even mind being fake, or bothering to check for that.

tintor• 6 years ago

I would never buy online food or anything similar from Amazon, only directly from the manufacturer.

wombat-man2• 6 years ago

This is one of the reasons I don't buy a lot of stuff from amazon anymore. I don't have a printer to make return labels and easy returns are cold comfort. At the end of the day I just prefer to go in person to a store or order from a big box store. As long as you stay away from their weird 3rd party sellers, I feel pretty sure I'm getting real cereal or whatever.

shotta• 6 years ago

Where I’m at you can return products “as-is” to a Kohl’s Department Store and they will handle packaging and shipping back to Amazon. The refund starts processing sooner, too. I’m not sure how widespread this option is, though.

boring_twenties• 6 years ago

Recently you can just bring items to your choice of businesses near you like UPS Store or Whole Foods, they handle the packing and shipping for you.

lotsofpulp5• 6 years ago

I do still buy from Amazon. The ease of returns still gives me confidence that I can decide after receiving an item whether the price:quality ratio is worth it.

The time and labor spent refunding is well worth spending an extra few dollars at a competing vendor where I don’t have to worry about commingling nonsense.

If you told me 12 years ago that I would be choosing to patronize Best Buy over Amazon, I would have told you Best Buy will be out of business. Lo and behold, I now pay Best Buy (or manufacturer website) whatever they want since I can’t trust Amazon to not send me some AliExpress garbage.

alexpetralia• 6 years ago

Can anyone clarify how they found out their purchases were counterfeit (e.g. if I buy a Bose product "Sold By" Bose, it could be a counterfeit?)?

As someone who purchases things from Amazon and only care about if they work or not, I haven't had much an issue. If I've been loading up on counterfeits, it doesn't seem to have been a problem.

ac29• 6 years ago

if I buy a Bose product "Sold By" Bose, it could be a counterfeit?

Yes, because Amazon co-mingles item of the same SKU. A legit item could be shipped to someone who buys from a scammer, and a counterfeit could be shipped to someone who buys from a legit seller.

mleonhard• 6 years ago

I bought a Bose headset from a third-party seller on Amazon in 2017-12. The sound quality was poor. The computerized voice had a non-native English accent. The Bose iOS app would not connect to it.

I emailed Bose. They asked for the serial number and photos. They said "Yep, it's fake." That was all. They didn't even want to know who sold it to me. Amazon support also did not seem to care. They just told me to send it back.

opencl• 6 years ago

A few years ago I bought a $15 audio amplifier on Amazon. It failed a little while later and after a bit of googling I found a page from the manufacturer about identifying counterfeits which were apparently rampant. Different PCB layout etc.

Amazon does have a brand registry which manufacturers can opt into and then actual proactive counterfeit enforcement will happen specifically for that brand. Some but not all items in the program have unique per-unit barcodes that Amazon verifies and customers can too through an app called Transparency. But as a customer you have no way to tell which brands are enrolled in the program unless you receive the item and see the Transparency barcode on it.

nabilhat• 6 years ago

The irony is that eliminating couterfeits would enable product quality for legit goods to actually be different for Amazon stock and brick and mortar grocery stock. It's already normal for brands to have Walmart-specific product releases; often cutting features and quality to meet a cost target (Levis "signature" line, for example).

How long until we see Amazon Edition Fruit Loops, specially engineered to deliver consistent taste and texture under extreme and long term storage conditions, at a price that can't be beat?

TheSpiceIsLife• 6 years ago

This comment demonstrates just how far Amazon has gone to shift the Overton Window[1] toward accepting counterfeits and outright fraud.

People will actually go out of their way to say things like "I don't mind being defrauded, I don't mind having my time wasted, I don't being fucking GASTLIGHTED, because I can just return the item(s) with ease."

Nothing against you personally.

But fuck that!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

binarysolo2• 6 years ago

Amazon seller here, we sell in grocery and have seen a buncha things in this space:

There's a nontrivial possibility this is a transportation and/or storage issue. Most food items have some sort of temperature threshhold during transit and storage. We've had food products incorrectly commingled during shipment and storage over the years which ruined thousands of saleable products. Amazon's gotten a lot better about this by placing better ship/store standards from a subcategory level but it's a known issue.

tracer4201• 6 years ago

I’ve received counterfeit preworkout, counterfeit razor blades, and more recently counterfeit Optimum Nutrition Whey protein.

zyl1n• 6 years ago

Reading these comments, it feels a bit strange that I have never gotten a counterfeit product from Amazon, and I bought a dozen items from Amazon within last two months: RAM, electric kettle, wall clock, books, phone case, humidifier, ramen and fresh groceries (like fruits and cheese). The only problem I had was a few books were dented in corner of spines a bit. Is this phenomenon country specific? Or is it because I order only amazon prime items? Perhaps my luck will run out one day :)

exhilaration• 6 years ago

You probably can't tell. A friend bought a Samsung Bluetooth headset from Amazon several years ago, it looked genuine and worked well until it died. He sent it in for warranty service and Samsung sent it back with a note saying that it was counterfeit.

Cthulhu_• 6 years ago

Honestly reading all this, I'd treat Amazon like AliExpress - use it to buy cheap low quality shit you don't really need, go to the shops for everything else. Shops have actual quality control in place, and shops can be held liable if their products are defective or counterfeit.

randycupertino3• 6 years ago

Our family's rule of thumb has been "nothing that goes on your body or in your body" can come from amazon, but after hearing about the counterfit bolts and ladder, think I'm gonna just not buy anything from there anymore. Have moved to ebay, Sephora, getting things direct from the hardware store and Target in person, and purchasing from other merchant shops that have their own websites.

mtnGoat• 6 years ago

considering they make money either way, i feel like this could be kind of dubious and just lip service. i would have more faith if an uninvolved party was doing the work.

ikeboy2• 6 years ago

When are they going to start suing those who file false claims of counterfeiting?

Google started something similar last year when they sued someone who was abusing YouTube's DMCA system. https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/15/20915688/youtube-copyrig...

But despite widespread abuse of Amazon's IP reporting system, to date Amazon has not sued anyone for that as far as I know.

mjevans• 6 years ago

Having a chain of ownership list would be a great help with this. Track and report which company owned the item back to it's manufacture and who 'owned' the IP of the run. Even more ideally also the production time, etc.

anonymousDan• 6 years ago

Good shout. If only there were a technology to support this kind of usecase....

Vendan• 6 years ago

Good news, there is! It's called a database. When an item comes in, tag it with a unique barcode and add a row to the database saying "Item X came from company Y in shipment Z" and then sue/penalize/whatever company Y when it's counterfeit.

r00fus2• 6 years ago

This goes against everything that makes Fulfilled by Amazon successful/dominant. Not expecting anything to change.

gwittel2• 6 years ago

Are fake listings a problem? Absolutely. But is it the primary issue? I'm not so sure. It seems like Amazon is doing all sorts of things but not actually addressing the root -- inventory co-mingling + sketchy 3rd party sellers that can come back overnight.

Simply ending inventory co-mingling would likely handle a substantial portion of counterfeits since Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard channels.

Amazon knows this. There's probably cost models somewhere in HQ. But ending this would mean: slower delivery times, and Amazon would have to carry the inventory on their books. I'd gladly wait an extra day or two if I know the item I get is legit (just like pre FBA/3rd party days). Instead, Amazon is burning goodwill and cash on efforts like this one.

If anything, Covid-19 has forced other retailers to up their online game. Its accelerated my spending shift away from Amazon as I'm tired of fraud. Fraudulent items can injure, poison, or even kill people. Thanks, but no thanks. I'll wait another day for that delivery.

ciarannolan• 6 years ago

It seems like Amazon is doing all sorts of things but not actually addressing the root -- inventory co-mingling + sketchy 3rd party sellers that can come back overnight.

Right, and for the reasons you listed, they simple do not care. They care only about appearing to care.

As someone else linked in this thread, they announce some bullshit "investigative team" like this every 6 months or so.

vayr2• 6 years ago

I don't think they don't care -- this is a huge source of negative press & goes against company culture of putting the Customer above ALL else (including employees & their well being lol)

The problem is just that even a tiny percentage of bad-actors still make up millions of sales at Amazon's scale.

ikeboy2• 6 years ago

Amazon is sourcing their stock through standard channels.

This just isn't true. There's been plenty of lawsuits alleging that Amazon themselves sourced counterfeit product. Their supply chain for many products is not necessarily better than third party sellers.

the_pwner2242• 6 years ago

About 6 years ago I ordered a $150 graphing calculator from Amazon, 'Shipped and sold by Amazon' or whatever the actual phrase was, and iirc there were no 3rd-party sellers for the item. The calculator came in two versions with software differences as well as a different accent color on the hardware to differentiate. I ordered the one with the extra software but instead got the one with the cheaper color and firmware. I returned it for a replacement from Amazon and got the right one that time.

It wasn't counterfeit (I don't think anyone is ripping off high-end TI calculators, and it also came with a license key for the computer software), but I believe it was intentionally incorrectly sold. It came in a blister pack and the paper insert inside plastic indicated it was the CAS model, but the calculator itself was the non-CAS model - in other words, aside from having the non-CAS calculator in the box, it was exactly identical to the CAS model as you would buy from a store.

Maybe TI mixed up their stuff but I doubt that; by that time I had already heard of Amazon selling counterfeit items and as you said there have apparently been lawsuits for this.

About a year later I had the exact same issue occur with another item - sold by Amazon, but fake, but got the right one after a return. Can't remember what it was though.

ABeeSea• 6 years ago

I’m not sure commingling is as big a problem as you imply. Amazon’s inventory system is random so every item can essentially be tracked by location. Even with commingling, if there is a counterfeit all the inventory from the original sourcer can be tracked and pulled. It’s not like they are randomly tossing all of the same item into a random bin and doesn’t know whose is whose.

Also Amazon buys from many distributors just like every other retailer. Even their own inventory for the same item could come from many different suppliers. Many of those distributors/suppliers are now sellers themselves and all that’s changed is who sets the price and who decides when to send in more inventory (and who takes on the working capital risk.)

As for sellers coming back overnignt, one of the largest complaints on the seller forums is how onorous the KYC process is for new sellers. (Bank documents, passports, business license, etc).

Also you a manufacturer can become a brand owner which prevents commingling and other sellers from listing on their items. Notice that Ankara highest volume power banks pretty much only have offers from Anker and amazon warehouse / woot (an amazon subsidiary).

lotsofpulp5• 6 years ago

I’m not sure commingling is as big a problem as you imply.

Commingling is the sole reason I canceled Amazon prime and don’t shop there.

I am spending my money to receive a certain product, and in order to do that I have to trust the vendor. If I can’t trust the vendor, why should I buy from them?

csa• 6 years ago

It’s not like they are randomly tossing all of the same item into a random bin and doesn’t know whose is whose.

Tell this to my buddy who had his card game counterfeited about 3 years ago.

He was getting a lot of complaints about counterfeit products, so he ordered a few and got a few duds.

He ended up having to recall all of his inventory from Amazon, and he found out that a fairly sizable percentage was counterfeit (~20%... can't remember the exact number). According to him, Amazon was literally "tossing all of the same item into a random bin and [didn't] know whose [was] whose".

The solution he ended up going with was paying Amazon extra to separate his items from other potential sellers of his own product. IIRC, he also set up (paid for?) the right to be the sole distributor for new items. I can't remember if he took those actions concurrently or sequentially, but he decided it was cheaper to do both rather than deal with counterfeits.

gwittel2• 6 years ago

Hard to say since only Amazon knows. As you've mentioned, there are many ways for counterfeits to enter the supply chain.

I think the main difference is who shoulders greater risk/impact of a counterfeit. Under normal models, the store (Amazon) is hit harder (returns, supply chain management). Under Amazon's model, the customer and potentially manufacturer bears a heavier burden.

As a customer, why should I care about the brand owner feature? Additionally, Amazon does not clearly mark products as such. These things just look like any other FBA product.

As a product creator, why should I have to register myself with Amazon? Should I have to police Amazon listings (which seems likely based on the brand ownership service feature list)? Or can I just work with my trusted distributors like the standard model?

I don't have an answer to these questions especially on the sell side. However, this all seems more like Amazon's way of shifting risk and cost to external parties.

donmcronald2• 6 years ago

At the very least, whoever ships the product should be considered the retailer. If I visit Amazon.com, buy a product that's stocked in an Amazon warehouse, pay Amazon, and Amazon ships it to me, it's insane that Amazon can turn around and claim someone else is the retailer when things go bad.

Politicians are tough on crime unless it's corporate crime I guess.

vayr2• 6 years ago

This is a hard problem to fix. The last statistic I read was that 52% of all items sold on Amazon were 3rd party sellers. Imagine even if 1% of the items by 3rd sellers were counterfeit, that's still millions of items.

I don't envy Amazon's position right now. They should have thought about this issue before opening 3rd party sellers but now they're dealing with the consequence in a huge scale

lotsofpulp5• 6 years ago

All Amazon had to do was make it possible for people to filter for only items shipped and sold by Amazon.com and publicly announce they don't commingle inventory. If they did that, they would be a viable competitor to Costco, Best Buy, Target, Bed Bath and Beyond, etc.

It's not a hard problem to fix. It's an unprofitable problem to fix. See the tiny profit margins at the above listed actual retail companies. The juicy profit margins lie in being a platform and taking a cut of all sales.

binarysolo2• 6 years ago

Amazon seller here - cominging is typically a long tail problem these days, as manufacturers with brand registry basically get their own special inventory/storage treatment. I know it doesn't seem like it from a consumer side, but we as 1P vendors have to jump through a buncha hoops to sell our own products using Brand Registry, and even more hoops in 3P items and extra labeling of barcoded items just to note that the items came from and are trackable to us.

*1P = first-party manufacturer, 3P = third-party (not original manufacturer) seller

throwawayiionqz3• 6 years ago

I ordered a well-known baby-bottom cream. The product gave her never-expanding rashes for a few days. Then I realized the color slightly differs from the same cream bought at the local pharmacy, and that many 1 star reviews also report knockoffs version of the cream. In some cases review pictures show that the packaging itself is clearly fake.

I write a 1-star review explaining the above, and saying that the anxious parents are now in an unbearable situation after applied a fake, potentially harmful and untraceable product to their newborn bottom.

The review does not respect community guidelines and won't be published.

BurningFrog2• 6 years ago

This sounds litigation ready!

ummonk• 6 years ago

Second this - this needs to be litigated.

jnwatson• 6 years ago

The copied brand owner would likely be very interested. That's direct harm to the brand.

HereBeBeasties• 6 years ago

I wrote a detailed, solid, accurate 1 star review of a child's digital camera which clearly didn't contravene their guidelines. Didn't meet their guidelines, wouldn't publish it.

Amazon used to be great. Nowadays it's full of fake reviews and dodgy secondhand stuff being sold as new.

908087• 6 years ago

Of my past 10 orders with Amazon, 4 of the items I've received have been either non-functional, the wrong item entirely (a knock-off of an APC replacement battery), or clearly used.

Amazon has refused to publish every one of my reviews, which, as you said in your situation, clearly met their guidelines.

My experiences indicate to me that they have no interest in improving. They're far more interested in protecting shady sellers from buyers than they are in protecting buyers from shady sellers, counterfeit products, etc.

elliekelly3• 6 years ago

Do you still have the counterfeit tube? It might be worthwhile to get in touch with your Attorney General’s Office. Doubly so if your AG is up for re-election.

I imagine a lot of Attorneys General would jump at the chance to stand up to Amazon in defense of poor little baby bottoms and a media-friendly fact pattern like this could help bring about much-needed change at Amazon across all product categories.

throwawayiionqz3• 6 years ago

Before calling the AG on this, how do you make sure that fake is fake in the first place?

The major hurdle is that you do not even know and cannot know. Maybe the product is actually legit and the visual difference comes from temperature or whatever, and the rash appeared for a different reason. One avenue may be to contact the manufacturer with the lot number.

If you try a new product and baby develops rashes or allergies, you know not to buy this product again. With Amazon you can't even conclude anything about the official product because you might have used a knockoff.

You can just conclude to stay away from Amazon for baby care products.

throwawayiionqz3• 6 years ago

To add some context, the "critical" reviews of the product [1] describes multiple instances of the problem.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Aquaphor-Healing-Ointment-Advanced-Pr...

Edit: Searching with "yellow" or "fake" brings more reviews with the same issue. In the mean time parents keep receiving it and applying it on their newborn.

opportune• 6 years ago

Same thing happened to me with a FBA product which I was not happy with. It didn't ship for two weeks until I left a bad review and reported the seller, and it arrived in not-great condition. Originally got offered $20 ($100 product) to take down a one star review, then they got it taken down anyway.

bobmaxup• 6 years ago

I'll never order something I put on or in my body from Amazon again.

myself248• 6 years ago

Foxes announce plan to investigate threats to henhouse. Film at 11.

awinter-py2• 6 years ago

nos custodimus quod lingus

ckastner3• 6 years ago

I've said this before: they should look at how the finance industry deals / has been dealing with bad actors for decades before they engage in a business relationship with a client.

Assign every vendor some risk category based on their profile, for example: projected annual revenue, country of incorporation, products sold.

A mom-and-pop store located somewhere in Iowa selling pillow cases would probably be low-risk, there's not much you need to do.

A vendor selling USB cables out of China is probably very-high-risk. These need deep vetting. As in: show up in an office, bring along your lawyer, show us documentation on the working conditions in your factory, sign an agreement to let us audit your factory, etc.

Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to post collateral before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to compensate victims.

That would take out the incentive to sell counterfeits in the first place.

vageli• 6 years ago

Now, banks don't do this (at least, as far as I'm aware), but to play the devil's advocate: just imagine if Amazon asked very-high-risk vendors to post collateral before selling. If they get caught, the collateral is used to compensate victims.

Requiring merchants to be bonded for entry into high-risk categories sounds like a great idea! I know they already have hurdles for entry into protected categories like vitamins but adding a financial hurdle seems sensible for certain categories or volume.

donmcronald2• 6 years ago

In theory I think requiring a cash bond could improve many distribution systems, but the reality is that these big tech companies are so terrible at moderation and curation that we'd end up with tons of people having their bonds seized for no reason. Then, since there's actual money involved, those people might actually have some recourse, so it'll never happen IMO.

dublinben• 6 years ago

Speaking of incentives, why would Amazon want to place such onerous restrictions on their suppliers? Are consumers supposed to demand this? Would regulation require it?

Amazon's success at being "the everything store" is fundamentally opposed to vetting their suppliers like this.

ckastner3• 6 years ago

why would Amazon want to place such onerous restrictions on their suppliers?

Because they have a massive counterfeiting problem, as evident by this submission.

To reiterate, what I suggested would only be onerous for the highest-risk suppliers.

Amazon's success at being "the everything store" is fundamentally opposed to vetting their suppliers like this.

Certainly, Amazon is also fundamentally opposed to customers becoming victims of counterfeiters on a platform they provide them with.

debbiedowner• 6 years ago

I agree. Because of Amazon's scale selling counterfeit items is good for business. Only a minority of customers will notice the fake and return it, which they've streamlined so that it's no big deal.

Counterfeit items likely get Amazon more customers than it loses. The cheapness of counterfeit is attractive to new customers, and the ease of returns retains customers. Besides, everybody can't be a conesieur in everything they buy, so it's feasible to still be successful at high rates of counterfeit goods on the site. Some econ student could probably share some good studies on this kind of economy for us.

Maybe Amazon can try the pirate Bay argument that they just host the content they're not responsible for it respecting copyright?

hrktb• 6 years ago

A mom-and-pop store located somewhere in Iowa
A vendor selling USB cables out of China

Funny thing is, these two stereotypes tend to be less and less representative in my opinion.

Mom and pop store perhaps care less about what they sell on the internet ? Amazon was blocked in France during shelter in place and we had to go through other vendors. We got a surprising amount of mislabelled, slightly unfit (ex: wrong size, wrong color) or completely different stuff sent from small european vendors.

In comparison AliExpress is relatively accurate on descriptions, if color is random you know it at purchase, packaging was piss poor but we always got exactly what we ordered, and we had one issue for 40+ orders.

I would have better faith in a chinese vendor to send me the right USB cable than a Mom and Pop store to send the right size and color of pillow cases.

Finnucane• 6 years ago

I don't really get the attitude of 'I don't care about counterfeits because it's easy to make returns.' I mean, you know what's even easier than that? Ordering from a more trustworthy vendor and not having to make returns. Getting the right thing the first time! If I have to go to the post office to send a thing back, I might as well just go to an actual store and buy the thing myself.

olafure• 6 years ago

I'd really like them to establish a "counterfeit reviews" unit too.

Many years ago their review system was one of their businesses advantages. Many users and fairly honest reviews.

Now it's rife with fake and bought reviews, rendering it useless.

Wingman4l72• 6 years ago

I recently took a look at the top 20 reviewers, and based on some personal knowledge of what the items that buy 5-star reviews are in the current market, at least 3 of the top 20 people are doing it. These are people with thousands of reviews. It's rotten all the way to the top.

bradstewart• 6 years ago

Is it safe to assume "Amazon Basics" products are not counterfeit? Obvious clones of products from other brands, but quality-controlled by Amazon?

PaulWaldman• 6 years ago

I was thinking that too. Unless someone claimed they are just reselling their AmazonBasics items that were previously purchased from Amazon.

dazc• 6 years ago

Maybe it's all a cunning plan?

pps43• 6 years ago

Is there a way to contact this new unit? I have a bunch of links to clearly counterfeit products on Amazon. But something tells me that they might not be particularly interested.

viburnum• 6 years ago

You can’t just add anti-fraud sprinkles on top. The rampant fraud is built into Amazon.com’s business model. Monitoring product quality is hard. All the little shopkeepers and buying managers were actually doing work, work that isn’t easily automated. Amazon’s recreating the problems of central planning that the USSR had in product quality.

luizb• 6 years ago

they should start by investigating the "Amazon Basics" brand

legitster• 6 years ago

I have yet to have an issue with a counterfeit - my main problem are the pages and pages of crappy listings. I was trying to find a child's bike helmet the other day, and it's hundreds of brands I have never heard of, with no safety information, and all look virtually indistinguishable from each other except for weird logos plastered on them. (Kamugo? Galf? LERUJIFL? Turboske? OUWOER? LANOVAGEAR?)

I ended up driving to Wal-Mart for a Bell helmet that cost the same.

esaym2• 6 years ago

No joke, if I need food items from online, I try to go with ebay before amazon. I trust old/nearly expired or half opened boxes from some obscure ebay user before getting anything editable from amazon. If people are counterfeiting oral-b toothbrushes, I'm sure they are counterfeiting vanilla extract and gourmet chocolate.

panitaxx• 6 years ago

I started buying clothing from the brand itself (eg shoes directly from adidas, etc). Some appliances also direct. I sometimes buy food from Walmart but only if they are the retailer (they don't seem to commingle inventories). I bought some ssd directly from Samsung site. Another problem with amazon is the sheer quantity of not-counterfeit but cheap unknown knockoffs. It seems more like an expensive AliExpress.

cdubzzz• 6 years ago

I haven’t bought from Amazon in years. A few weeks ago my toddler left a rubber ball in our waffle maker and we didn’t realize it before turning it on and melting the thing. It ruined the non-stick coating.

After a bit of research I found a new waffle maker to buy. The place I found it had an Amazon affiliate link so I clicked through to price check — $94. Then I checked the manufacturer’s site — $69.99. Ordered it on Monday and it’ll get here tomorrow, free shipping.

This is a pretty common story for me. I almost always check Amazon out of curiosity and most of the time it’s more expensive then other options even when factoring in free shipping. I really don’t get what the upside is supposed to be.

fomine3• 6 years ago

Amazon becomes an expensive AliExpress but it also has stock on near warehouse rather than Shenzen. Sometimes useful.

dreamcompiler• 6 years ago

At least five years too late, but I'll take it.

Trias11• 6 years ago

Windows dressing.

It's not in Amazon's interests to reduce business by eliminating counterfeit products, fake reviews, etc..

Real solution is for government to hold platform responsible for peddling fakes and fraud to customers.

heavyset_go5• 6 years ago

Forgive me if I think this is both not enough and a little too late.

Too many incentives are aligned within Amazon to continue to ignore counterfeits sold on their marketplace, and the only way I'll believe that such a unit is effective against such incentives is with independent audits.

If this was an honest attempt to clean house, surely Amazon would welcome audits with open arms.

CommanderData• 6 years ago

Are they going to tackle the surge in poor quality face masks claiming to meet FDA or European standards?

codezero• 6 years ago

The cynic in me assumes they are doing this so they can make Amazon Basics versions of popular counterfeited money and remove the angle that counterfeiters are using...

a0zU2• 6 years ago

I highly doubt that Amazon's 'counterfeit crimes unit' will be anything more than just an advertising stunt and a token to use in court if accused of not trying to stop counterfeits.

bllguo• 6 years ago

I have never had counterfeit issues on amazon and always find these threads bewildering. I buy almost everything I can't get from my local grocery store from them. I can't tell whether I'm improbably lucky or if I'm part of a silent majority. Claims of things like counterfeit cereal (come on, really want to see some actual proof here) tilt me towards the latter, though.

phaus• 6 years ago

I bought a "Lenovo" USB hub that was a shitty knockoff, the manufacturer claimed they had licensed the Lenovo brand. The listing never mentioned that it wasn't an authentic Lenovo device, but the packaging did. The device was poorly made and just flat out didn't work.

I think electronics and luxury items have a higher chance of being counterfeit. Obviously most people are getting legitimate goods, otherwise Amazon wouldn't exist.

I read reviews before I purchase anything expensive though, if I see several people claiming the same product from the same vendor is a counterfeit, I find another vendor or another item.

Amezarak2• 6 years ago

I was reselling Monster energy drinks in my office. I tried ordering some from Amazon, since the bigger packs are more readily available, and for lower prices, allowing me to sell cans for a cheaper per-unit price.

The very first pack I got was clearly counterfeit. The cans were subtly different both in appearance and etching. A brave volunteer who tried some also reported it tasted off.

If they're counterfeiting energy drinks, I fully believe they're doing cereal too.

p1necone• 6 years ago

I wonder if the "silent majority" is just all the people sufficiently fooled by the counterfeiting?

Wingman4l72• 6 years ago

China counterfeited infant formula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal); why are you surprised about cereal?

dilandau• 6 years ago

Amazon is just a digital flea market, with all that the epithet entails. Shit-quality Chinesium stuff, counterfeit everything, fake customers, fake everything except the price. All amzn cares about is dominance, and they are winning unfortunately.

czbond• 6 years ago

How will they be able to police this - won't it be like fake accounts on Facebook or Twitter? Very easy to setup a new account?

abootstrapper• 6 years ago

Last two items I ordered online I skipped Amazon and ordered from the manufacturer to avoid getting stuck with a counterfeit. I'm considering dropping my Prime membership if this keeps up.

rfwhyte• 6 years ago

And absolutely nothing will change. In fact the volume of counterfeit goods, fake reviews and scams on Amazon and other marketplaces will only increase. Its honestly not even really Amazon's problem at this point, its more that there is an entire Chinese industry devoted to counterfeiting and scamming, with literally hundreds of thousands of intelligent, capable people spending their lives looking for ways to make a dishonest buck. Amazon is essentially putting a band-aid on a leaking damn at this point. Until China actually puts strong IP protections in place (They never will) there's really not much western companies can do about it beyond paying lip service to a problem they know they can't actually solve.

Amazon establishes new Counterfeit Crimes Unit

Related Stories