The Isle of Man is not in the UK

http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20191008-the-british-isle-that-doesnt-belong

by MiriamWeiner • 7 years ago

182 196 7 years ago

msla2• 7 years ago

The article is correct, but it's also less than relevant for most people outside the UK, unless they live on the Isle of Man.

British politics provides endless wells of "Well, actually..." any time anyone says something about the subject. Shades of Mornington Crescent.

sorokod• 7 years ago

I am familiar with Camden and Mornington Crescent area, but "Shades of Mornington Crescent"?

laurieg• 7 years ago

Mornington Crescent is a station the you only stop at going one direction on the London underground. If you go in the other direction it disappears. Here it's being used as a short-hand for a complex situation/set of rules. The usage is probably drawn from the fact there was a comedy radio programme in the UK that played a ridiculous game involving many sets of convoluted rules upon rules and the name of the game was Mornington Crescent.

ehnto• 7 years ago

He might be referring to the old radio game, Mornington Crescent that aired on BBC Radio 4. Where all the rules are made up, but tensely debated none the less. One of my first website's was an attempt at an online game of Mornington Crescent.

The game consists of each panellist in turn announcing a landmark or street, most often a tube station on the London Underground system. The aim is to be the first to announce "Mornington Crescent", a station on the Northern line. Interspersed with the turns is humorous discussion amongst the panellists and host regarding the rules and legality of each move, as well as the strategy the panellists are using.

hcs• 7 years ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mornington_Crescent_(game)

smcl4• 7 years ago

And "Shades of ${thing}" is shorthand for something like "This reminds one of ${thing}" or "There are similarities to ${thing}"

So GP's last sentence can be interpreted as: "There are similarities to the radio game Mornington Crescent".

I often forget how British phrases, cultural references and idioms can be completely inscrutable.

msla2• 7 years ago

As others correctly pointed out, I'm referring to the parodic panel game "Mornington Crescent" from I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue; the "game" is ostensibly about making moves from tube stop to tube stop while obeying an immensely complicated set of rules which are written down in full in a gigantic book... which doesn't exist in the real world.

The Wikipedia article is fairly anodyne, but the talk page was surprisingly acrimonious on the topic of whether this joke is a game, or whether this game is a joke; ultimately, the side insisting it is so a real game seemed like they were attempting to prevent Wikipedia from "spoiling" it by stating outright that there are no actual rules:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mornington_Crescent_(game...

... which reminds me of the surprising persistence with which some people tried to get Wikipedia to state that drop bears are real:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Drop_bear/Archive_1

ajdlinux2• 7 years ago

It’s also not part of the European Union, but is within the EU Customs zone.

As opposed to the British Overseas Territory of Gibraltar, which is within the European Union, but outside the EU Customs area (until Brexit, at which point it leaves the EU too).

The political status of British territories and dependencies is... _complex_.

pjc506• 7 years ago

... and the sovereign military bases in Cyprus, which also get mentioned in the treaty discussions and full titles.

I wondered how Gibraltar was outside the customs union; at time of UK joining, not only was Spain not in the EU, it was still a fascist dictatorship. https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Gibraltar-opt-out-of-the-EU-Cu...

Fnoord• 7 years ago

I don't have an answer to your question but calling that EU is, historically inaccurate at best.

"During the 1950s the regime also changed from being openly totalitarian and using severe repression to an authoritarian system with limited pluralism. Spain joined the United Nations in 1955 and during the Cold War Franco was one of Europe's foremost anti-communist figures: his regime was assisted by the Western powers, and it was asked to join NATO. Franco died in 1975 at the age of 82." [1]

At that point (1975) there was no such thing as the EU (it was called EEC [2] (EEG in my language), and very different from what the EU is today). There where still customs between all members of EEC, except Belgium and The Netherlands. I know this because in the 80s we traveled regularly from The Netherlands to Brussels where my aunt lived as a diplomat for the EEC, while we also bought fuel in Germany which was cheaper than The Netherlands (and there was customs there).

The Wikipedia page of EEC [2] is a recommended read if you want to know more about the predecessor of the EU. Apparently, Spain joined in 1986. We went to vacation to Spain multiple times in my youth, including after 1986. We had customs checks. We also had these in France. And we had to take French Francs with us, as well as Spanish Pesetas. I even remember paying with Italian Liras at one point in 90s (1996?) and I felt very rich!

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francoist_Spain

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Community

vinay427• 7 years ago

Argh, and I thought Switzerland was confusing (though as a completely sovereign country it may still be near the top). These are on a whole different level.

lathiat• 7 years ago

CGP Grey has a great video: "The Difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain and England Explained" which covers a lot of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

arethuza2• 7 years ago

"The political status of British territories and dependencies is... _complex_."

Why is how (sadly false) ideas start like Berwick Upon Tweed still being engaged in a multi-generation life and death struggle with the Tsar's Russia:

https://notesfromtheuk.com/2019/02/15/is-berwick-upon-tweed-...

SamReidHughes2• 7 years ago

You could tell, because there's no way their motorcycle race would be allowed in the UK.

I was halfexpecting this article to tell us they still used pre-decimalized currency.

easytiger• 7 years ago

A similar race is held in NI

https://www.northwest200.org/the-history-of-the-nw200/

SamReidHughes2• 7 years ago

In the past decade, only three people died.

rorykoehler• 7 years ago

There are loads of these road races in UK & Ireland (also in mainland Europe). It's a full calendar.

pro_zac• 7 years ago

The TT is the only reason I know of the Isle of Man. The current lap record is 16 minutes 42 seconds at an average speed of 135mph!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man_TT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmNXCJt7K3Q

twic3• 7 years ago

And:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Isle_of_Man_TT_Mountai...

rolltiide• 7 years ago

I enjoy European bilateral travel and trade agreements especially amongst microstates but this one is such an irrelevant distinction for practical matters that I think it isn’t worth mentioning.

Thanks for the reminder, and the article and history was very interesting.

fortran77• 7 years ago

And of course there's "Big Clive" who is probably familiar to many of the people here. He lives on the Isle of Man and frequently talks about it.

(He does a "hands channel" on YouTube taking apart electrical devices and other gadgets: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMv2KyuZEp4 )

teh_klev2• 7 years ago

Big Clive and his house full of disassembled and broken things :)

Tremendous channel though and thoroughly educational.

peteretep7• 7 years ago

Isle of Man has zero percent corporate tax on (most) money earned outside the Isle of Man, which includes money earned in the UK. If you're a non-resident citizen of the UK, you can deposit your dividends from your Isle of Man company in your UK bank account, tax free.

For the time being, IOM companies have GB VAT numbers, and a banking system that integrates seamlessly with the UK one, as well as a postal system (quick, which country is 15 Hope Street, Douglas, IM1 1AQ, British Islands?). This makes the sales process to UK and EU companies painless.

So if you're a British citizen who's managed to convince HMRC you're not resident in the UK, this is a great way to pay very little tax. BUT WAIT, there's more!

If you _are_ resident in the UK, and a British citizen, but you can convince HMRC that you are in fact not _domiciled_ in the UK, you can pay HMRC £30,000 a year flat-tax, and only pay tax on the money you bring into the UK -- so if you keep it in IOM, or send it to Guernsey, it's tax-free, as long as you manage to avoid CFC regulations, which are left as an exercise for the reader.

None of this should be considered as tax advice, although if you genuinely don't live in the UK, and aren't anywhere else long enough to be resident (that DigiNomadLyfe), then the top three points should be of significant interest.

If you think the owner of the Daily Mail and similar glitterati[0] should be paying more tax than a Senior Developer in London, paragraph 4 needs some scrutiny.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_non-domici...

jsmith992• 7 years ago

'Resident but not domiciled' is a very old system in the UK based on things like which country you have purchased a burial plot in. It's kept around because its a handy way to persuade oligarchs to live in the UK: they only get taxed on non UK income if they bring it into the UK, otherwise its tax free.

It was reformed several years ago to make it very hard for actual UK people to use. It is very difficult to give up UK domicile, and even if you manage to (by proving you no longer have any links) then HMRC will deem you UK domiciled anyway if you ever become UK tax resident. People who've been resident in UK for too many years are also deemed UK domiciled now.

peteretep7• 7 years ago

then HMRC will deem you UK domiciled anyway if you ever become UK tax resident

This appears to be not true in practice, reading the list of notable people with non-dom status.

TazeTSchnitzel• 7 years ago

For the time being, IOM companies have GB VAT numbers, and a banking system that integrates seamlessly with the UK one, as well as a postal system (quick, which country is 15 Hope Street, Douglas, IM1 1AQ, British Islands?). This makes the sales process to UK and EU companies painless.

I bet that's been used for VAT fraud with EU companies.

peteretep7• 7 years ago

How would that be easier than VAT fraud in the UK proper?

pjc506• 7 years ago

Examples: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/nov/09/eu-takes-act... / http://www.iomtoday.co.im/article.cfm?id=43959&headline=Euro...

pavlov5• 7 years ago

After living in the UK for a year and encountering this tax system firsthand, I'm convinced that one of the main reasons for Brexit is that rich people in England are worried that EU tax harmonization could one day take away their sweet loopholes and convenient neighborhood tax havens.

I've personally benefitted from the system as a "resident non-domiciled" foreign citizen. But on the whole it's not fair to British taxpayers, and it's not fair to the rest of Europe to be a punching bag for this secret agenda whose enacters care more about continued personal enrichment than national or European economies.

nicoburns• 7 years ago

This is my main reason for supporting the European Union. Individual countries aren't big enough to have serious power against tax-avoiding corporation/citizens. But the EU is.

lawlessone2• 7 years ago

I'm convinced that one of the main reasons for Brexit is that rich people in England are worried that EU tax harmonization

it's coming January 2020, the UK is terrified of it as they own overseas tax havens all over the world.

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/policies/anti-tax-avoidan...

pytester7• 7 years ago

After living in the UK for a year and encountering this tax system firsthand, I'm convinced that one of the main reasons for Brexit is that rich people in England are worried that EU tax harmonization could one day take away their sweet loopholes and convenient neighborhood tax havens.

It's the same reason they hate Corbyn with such a seething passion too, and McDonnell even more (McDonnell quipped that he found the "magic money tree"; it was growing in overseas tax havens).

simonh4• 7 years ago

I hear this theory a lot, but the fact is most of the support for Brexit came from low income households, and people in low skilled or manual work. Generally the higher the household income, the lower the support for Brexit, even at the higher income levels.

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-...

gerdesj• 7 years ago

"I'm convinced that one of the main reasons for Brexit is that rich people in England"

Brexit (when it gets around to happening) is the result of a referendum. ~48% of the voting electorate are not all English and rich.

marcus_holmes7• 7 years ago

I lived for four years in the IoM, had an amazing time (until Bushy's closed anyway). But in the process, I opened an IoM bank account to pay my salary into. I carried on using this account for years afterwards (it was with the IoM branch of a UK bank). I benefited from not paying any tax on the interest on my savings account, because tax haven. Not a huge perk, but a nice one anyway.

And then, in the wake of the tax haven scandals around 2005/6, the HMRC wrote me a nice letter explaining that, while I had obeyed all the rules at the time, they were retroactively changing the rules and I needed to declare all the interest I had earned on my offshore account over the last 8 years. The final bill came to about fifty quid, so no major damage done. But the lesson has stuck with me.

HMRC can and will change the rules at any time, and apply them retroactively. Getting super smart about taxes, especially by using loopholes and tax havens, can be counter-productive. Unexpected tax demands are not fun.

lawlessone2• 7 years ago

The final bill came to about fifty quid,

I'm thinking you weren't really who they wanted to target anyway.

peteretep7• 7 years ago

Getting super smart about taxes, especially by using loopholes and tax havens, can be counter-productive. Unexpected tax demands are not fun.

Sure. However, getting slightly smart about it, and not -- for example -- paying tax in a country you are demonstrably not living in, is probably a good idea.

rahimnathwani• 7 years ago

What rules were they retroactively changing?

If you're resident in the UK, you have to pay tax on all interest income, and this isn't new.

Were you not living in the UK during the period?

BTW HMRC doesn't make/change the rules, although they do interpret and enforce them.

pmjordan• 7 years ago

while I had obeyed all the rules at the time, they were retroactively changing the rules and I needed to declare all the interest I had earned on my offshore account over the last 8 years.

Are you sure they changed the rules? It sounds like they might have realised they hadn't been implementing/enforcing the European Union Savings Directive (EUSD) [1] correctly, and therefore retroactively enforced the rules. Or perhaps they found that the EU rules overrode the UK/IM rules, which were retroactively found to be null and void.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savings_Directive

adolph• 7 years ago

HMRC: Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HM Revenue and Customs or HMRC)[3] is a non-ministerial department of the UK Government responsible for the collection of taxes, the payment of some forms of state support and the administration of other regulatory regimes including the national minimum wage.

the_watcher2• 7 years ago

Can you actually use the money while you're not living in UK?

To use a simple example, say I'm a British citizen living in the US who is a freelancer (let's assume I'm non-resident, not just non-domiciled). Let's say I have US citizenship as well to get around any immigration issues. I create a company in the Isle of Man (assume I meet whatever qualifications are needed to do this). Can I just deposit my checks in the UK bank account, pay no taxes, and use the money in the US without violating any British laws? What about when traveling to the UK or EU? I'm almost sure I'd be violating American tax law, but I'm now curious how to put this into practice.

peteretep7• 7 years ago

Can I just deposit my checks in the UK bank account, pay no taxes, and use the money in the US without violating any British laws? What about when traveling to the UK or EU?

Yes, but this isn’t particularly surprising — I’d expect it to work the same way everywhere. The Brits would love you to deposit your money into their banking system, and if you’re not resident in the UK and the income hasn’t arisen in the UK there’s no tax basis for it there.

In your scenario, the problem is American CFC rules, where they’ll effectively declare your IOM company to be an American company, and tax it on that basis. Also if you’re tax resident somewhere (the US in your example), they’ll usually tax your worldwide income (although jurisdictions vary). Finally, though, if you’re an American citizen, it doesn’t matter where you’re tax resident, you still owe the IRS.

telesilla• 7 years ago

What the author called a 'rumpy' cat is the colloquial term used on the island, along with 'stubbin'. Otherwise the cat is called outside of the island, not surprisingly, a Manx cat. I've seen them scattered around the commonwealth as beloved pets, various tail sizes but probably sadly mutilated for cat shows for a more perfect rump.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_cat

smcl4• 7 years ago

For those unfamiliar why it's not surprising - the word "Manx" is something like "of/from the Isle of Man" (like "Scottish" or "Scotch" for Scotland)

thisone2• 7 years ago

if you've seen tailess cats in the UK (I know you refer to the wider commonwealth), they would not be mutilated, at least legally, like that.

tail docking, ear docking, declawing, descenting (of ferrets), is illegal unless for the health of the animal or for a few working breeds where the dog is a working dog.

(England and Wales do have some different laws on this than Scotland and NI)

jaclaz• 7 years ago

And there is an European Convention:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20506954

Though I believe that it wasn't actually signed/ratified by the UK:

https://www.coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventio...

dehrmann• 7 years ago

Makes sense. They have their own TLD: .im. There was a time in the 2000's when .im was a halfway useful TLD for startups to use.

AndyMcConachie• 7 years ago

"And speaking of finance, the island has no capital gains tax, stamp duty or inheritance tax, making it an enticing prospect for many."

This one sentence sums up why the Isle of Man exists the way it does. What a puff piece.

Britain/UK/whatever are full of these little places to hide your money. That's all this is. Yet another crowny thing that allows the rich to avoid paying their due in an undemocratic society.

smcl4• 7 years ago

Yep there's plenty of fun little offshore places if you're so inclined. However we also have an onshore tax haven of sorts - the City of London: https://www.newstatesman.com/economy/2011/02/london-corporat...

Nadge• 7 years ago

This was a great read, thank you.

twic3• 7 years ago

This article is a really fun read, but it is fundamentally mendacious: the City is not, in fact, a tax haven. You can't dodge tax, as a person or a company, by moving to the City, or being involved with the City in some special way.

There are certainly people in the City who will help you move your money into tax havens. But then there are people in Loughborough who will do that, and we don't describe Loughborough as a tax haven.

Slimbo2• 7 years ago

How do you separate avoidance of tax with competition between taxation venues? The IOM (and other small jurisdictions) cannot compete with larger countries on manufacturing and other big industry, but their small size and low cost of government allows them to be very competitive with Tax. If an individual is able to move his finances out of a country to a more competitive jurisdiction, isn't' that the fault of the original country rather than the more competitive one?

thefounder• 7 years ago

> If an individual is able to move his finances out of a country to a more competitive jurisdiction, isn't' that the fault of the original country rather than the more competitive one?

You don't understand how secrecy works. A simple way to evade tax is to set-up a company in the tax heaven and send "fake" bills or loans to the real company. Without cooperation of the tax heaven country there is little the on-shore country can do except to black-list the said tax heaven from the financial market. As it happens special interests groups from the UK opposed a black-list of Isle of Man or Virgin Island.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/dec/05/eu-blacklis...

brazzy• 7 years ago

If an individual is able to move his finances out of a country to a more competitive jurisdiction, isn't' that the fault of the original country rather than the more competitive one?

If the "competitive jurisdiction" allows people to "move their finances" there without actually living or doing real business there, then that "jurisdiction" is in fact a parasite.

marcusjt• 7 years ago

This is an incredible documentary about British tax havens and the influence of the City of London in the running of UK government & foreign policy https://youtu.be/np_ylvc8Zj8

teh_klev2• 7 years ago

I agree, this is well worth watching.

mprev• 7 years ago

This isn’t how the IOM’s status came to be, though. Man has been an independent state for longer than the UK has existed. Now, the question is could it realistically exist without the support of the UK? We could ask the same question of San Marino and Italy or Andorra and France/Spain.

IOM as it is today, though, is unusually able to be influenced by its wealthy residents. I once heard a very wealth individual say he moved there not for the tax benefits but because he could have greater influence over the government in such a small nation.

kyanne• 7 years ago

Jesus Christ everyone, just pay some taxes

Slimbo2• 7 years ago

The Manx do pay tax, up to 20% income tax and 17.5% VAT (sales tax). Yes, it's low, but a little place with no need for military is cheap to run.

There's plenty of countries with lower rates than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

mrec• 7 years ago

The UK spends just over 2% of GDP on defence. It's not a big part of the budget. Total government spending is around 40% of GDP.

baddox• 7 years ago

I’m relatively familiar with the geography, but why oh why, in an article with this headline and subject, is there not, before anything else, a map indicating the UK and the Isle of Man?

oska• 7 years ago

Here's one [1] that shows it as part of the Kingdom of the Isles at the end of the 11th century.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_I...

arethuza2• 7 years ago

When the Kingdom of the Isles was merged into Scotland there was a noble title of Lord of the Isles - which eventually was nabbed by the Royals themselves and is currently held by Prince Charles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_of_the_Isles

thisone2• 7 years ago

it's on the bbc website? the British public do generally have a good idea where IOM is.

plus the subheader:

Despite being ringed on all sides by the UK – Northern Ireland to west, Scotland to the north, England to the east and Wales to the south – the Isle of Man is not actually part of it.

does tell you quite well where IOM is.

feels like complaining that an article on the NYTimes about Connecticut vs Pennsylvania doesn't show a map of the USA indicating where the states are.

GordonS• 7 years ago

Brit here. I must confess, I don't know where the Isle of Man is!

se62• 7 years ago

UK and tax havens have a long history. It is pretty sad and tells a lot about the quality of information in UK that most British people do not know about ATAD: Anti Tax Avoidance Directive, a EU attempt to crack down on tax havens, which will come in effect on 1st of Jan 2020.

Thanks to Brexit, UK will secure its tax havens, to the benefit of very few and to the detriment of many...

See https://www.taxjustice.net/2019/01/23/brexit-and-the-future-... for some more info.

[Edit: corrected the date]

tsukurimashou• 7 years ago

Do you mean 1st of Jan 2020?

se62• 7 years ago

Sorry, my mistake. Jan 2020 indeed!

growlist2• 7 years ago

Whenever the voters vote the wrong way the EU subverts it with the result in effect being overturned in one way or another, so the UK will probably end up staying in and this ATAD will be implemented.

tristanperry2• 7 years ago

For those downvoting, there is truth in this e.g.:

* Ireland voting (twice) on the Nice Treaty - 2001 then 2002

* Denmark voting (twice) Maastricht Treaty - first 1992 then 1993

* Ireland (again) this time on the Lisbon Treaty - 2008 then 2009

There was also a case where the Labour government (in the UK) promised a referendum on a couple of EU treaty changes, before changing their mind after other countries' referendums voted them down, and just ratified it in parliament instead: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_European_Consti...

patchtopic• 7 years ago

this is possibly the real reason why the right wing press are/have been banging the brexit drum so hard.. tax havens...

radicalbyte• 7 years ago

That would certainly explain their position and also the kind of persons who are pushing for No Deal.

na85• 7 years ago

Are you sure it's not to the detriment of very few? How many UK citizens are able to take advantage of said tax havens?

Edit: I misunderstood

megablast• 7 years ago

It is to detriment of all the people that miss out on those tax dollars that should be paid.

neilwilson• 7 years ago

"The Island's climate is temperate and lacking in extremes, due to the influence of the surrounding Irish Sea. In winter thunderstorms, snowfall and frost are infrequent, and even when snow does occur it rarely lies on the ground for more than a day or two.

February is normally the coldest month, with an average daily temperature of 4.9 C (41 F), and July and August are the warmest - with an average daily maximum temperature of around 18 C (63 F). In summer April, May and June are the driest months whilst May, June and July are the sunniest.

Wind generally travels southwesterly, although the rugged topography means that local effects of shelter and exposure are very variable. Sea fog affects the south and east coast at times, especially in spring, but is less frequent on the west coast.

Rainfall and the frequency of hill fog both increase with altitude - the highest point of the Island (Snaefell at 2,036 ft) receives some two and a quarter times more rainfall than Ronaldsway on the southeast coast, where the annual average is 34 inches (863 mm)."

That's why the Isle of Man is a tax haven. It's beautiful if you like bleak islands.

ChrisSD• 7 years ago

Independence is a strong part of the character of the people of the island. We’re not part of the UK, or the British Isles – we’re Manx

It should be noted that this is more aspirational than reality. It's not just the currency that's tied to the UK's pound, a lot of legislation is normalised between the two. The tax situation aside, it's more a part of the UK than some Manx residents like to think (and even the tax serves a purpose for the UK). This is unsurprising as most residents come from the UK and it is almost completely dependent on the UK. That said Tynwald (Manx government) can and does make laws that differ. Relatively recently its abortion reforms were in the news.

A geeky aside: Linux enthusiasts may know the Isle of Mann as the home of Mark Shuttleworth (creator of Ubuntu).

Stay_frostJebel• 7 years ago

“Independence is a strong part of the character of the people of the island. We’re not part of the UK, or the British Isles – we’re Manx,” said Phil Gawne, a former politician on the island...

Hmm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles

The British Isles are a group of islands in the North Atlantic off the north-western coast of continental Europe that consist of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Hebrides and over six thousand smaller isles.

Wikipedia disagrees.

Over the years, I've harbored a growing suspicion that the political Venn diagram surrounding the UK and associated entities has reached the point of such complexity that even the natives can't follow it.

(Not that I think that Americans know the US's territorial classification system either, but...)

wjoe• 7 years ago

Yeah, that person is just wrong. Interesting that they identify that way though. I have friends in Jersey, which holds the same status as the Isle of Mann, and they're very insistent on not being part of the UK, but that they are British (as well as Jersey native). They like being independent but being strongly connected to the UK.

mxfh• 7 years ago

This terminology is the official UK POV and generally accepted elsewhere. It's not surprising that any self governed or separitist faction is challenging this.

See the last paragraph of the introduction of said Wikipedia article.

The Isle of Man is not in the UK

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